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Pope: Religion has a place in politics

by CNN

Thanks to Bernie Brocklehurst for the link.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/09/12/pope.france.secular.ap/index.html

Pope: Religion has a place in politics

PARIS, France (AP) -- Pope Benedict XVI urged Christians to make their voices heard in France and other countries that have strong traditions of secularism, saying Friday that politics and religion must be open to each other.

The pope embarked Friday on a four-day trip -- his first to France as pontiff -- that will take him from the presidential Elysee Palace to the Roman Catholic shrine in Lourdes.

Benedict was greeted by President Nicolas Sarkozy and his wife, Carla Bruni-Sarkozy, at a Paris airport, where a military band in plumed hats played a fanfare. Later in Paris, the pope was to address a gathering including Muslim leaders on the second anniversary of a speech that heightened tensions with much of the Islamic world.

Traditionally Roman Catholic France is wrestling with its changing religious landscape, and how to reconcile it with the secularism that underpins the modern French Republic. The country has a growing number of Muslims whose visible customs, such as wearing headscarves in public schools, have raised the hackles of officials determined to preserve the boundaries between church and state.

On the plane, Benedict expressed understanding for secular traditions, but added that, nonetheless, "Religion and politics must be open to each other."

"The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies," he said.

In a speech after talks with the pontiff at the Elysee Palace, Sarkozy promoted his idea of "positive secularism" -- upholding the separation of church and state, while considering religions as beneficial for society, not a danger.

The French president said positive secularism could allow for a dialogue "on the meaning we want to give to our existences."

Similar comments have raised the hackles of Sarkozy's critics in the past. Secularism is so firmly entrenched here that one prominent politician, centrist Francois Bayrou, even questioned Sarkozy's decision to invite the pope to the Elysee Palace, saying that government and religion don't mix.

In a speech following Sarkozy's, the pontiff said he was convinced of the need for "new reflection on the true meaning and importance" of separation of church and state.

The pontiff said it was "fundamental on the one hand, to insist on the distinction between the political realm and that of religion in order to preserve both the religious freedom of citizens and the responsibility of the State towards them."

But he added that societies must also be "more aware of the irreplaceable role of religion for the formation of consciences and the contribution which it can bring to -- among other things -- the creation of a basic ethical consensus within society."

The pope's agenda for later Friday included a vespers service at Notre Dame Cathedral, meetings with representatives of France's Jewish community and a speech before cultural figures and Muslim leaders.

His stay in the French capital coincides with the second anniversary of his speech about Islam that offended many Muslims. In the pope's 2006 Regensburg lecture to theologians in Germany, he quoted a 14-century Byzantine emperor who was explaining why spreading faith through violence is unreasonable.

The pope has said he is sorry for any offense his Regensburg remarks caused, and the rector of the Paris Mosque, Dalil Boubakeur, said he considers the incident closed.

"Through his speeches we know that he is a man of peace and dialogue," Boubakeur said.

France has Western Europe's largest population of both Jews and Muslims. Despite its Catholic roots, fewer than 5 percent of the nation's 62 million people attend Mass every week, according to a 2006 Ifop poll, and some of its centuries-old cathedrals are crumbling in towns that lack money or the motivation to fix them.

The pope's trip to France grew out of his desire to visit the Lourdes shrine in southern France near the Pyrenees while the sanctuary celebrates the 150th anniversary of apparitions of the Virgin Mary to a local 14-year-old, Bernadette Soubirous.

The shrine draws 6 million people annually, some of them disabled or desperately sick, many of them hoping for a miracle. The Catholic Church has recognized as miraculous 67 healings linked to Lourdes from 1858 to the present.

Benedict told reporters on the plane, "We don't go to Lourdes looking for miracles. The love of the mother (Mary) is the true healing."

Lourdes was the last trip abroad for Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II. When John Paul visited in 2004, he was 84 and suffering the final ravages of Parkinson's disease. He needed to be helped by aides. He died in 2005.

Posted: Thursday, September 25, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #254115 by Diacanu on September 25, 2008 at 11:24 am

Blow it out your ass, Burgermeister Ratzinger.

Other Comments by Diacanu

2. Comment #254120 by rod-the-farmer on September 25, 2008 at 11:31 am

politics and religion must be open to each other.

Sorry, no. Religion is NOT open to anyone. Only priests are permitted to intercede on your behalf, or even to interpret holy books. Almost anyone can attend, but the dogma is laid out for you, not open to challenge. If religion wants politics to be open to religion, then they can discard their tax exempt status. The very minute they start taking positions on political issues, they should be sent a warning letter that if the activity does not stop, their property and income taxes will be due the following month.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

3. Comment #254123 by Tezcatlipoca on September 25, 2008 at 11:41 am

Wasn't Sarkozy divorced and then remarried? I sure hope his popeness didn't give President Sarkozy the host!

Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca

4. Comment #254124 by Opisthokont on September 25, 2008 at 11:47 am

Wow. Just in case any readers missed the abuse to secular common sense: "The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies," and "the irreplaceable role of religion for the formation of consciences and the contribution which it can bring to -- among other things -- the creation of a basic ethical consensus within society."

Words fail me.

Other Comments by Opisthokont

5. Comment #254127 by Ex~ on September 25, 2008 at 11:48 am

Religion has its place in the history books.

Other Comments by Ex~

6. Comment #254128 by Simonw on September 25, 2008 at 11:48 am

Our politicians have enough ideas based on wishful thinking rather than evidence, I don't think they need any more confused folks to tell them what to do.

Other Comments by Simonw

7. Comment #254134 by Fanusi Khiyal on September 25, 2008 at 11:55 am

I have this mental image of a bunch of Imam's going "We got 'em now!"

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

8. Comment #254155 by DamnDirtyApe on September 25, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Religion has its place in the mythology section.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

9. Comment #254156 by Ed-words on September 25, 2008 at 12:11 pm

"We don't go to Lourdes looking for miracles."

Good. He won't be disappointed!

( Diacanu - be polite - HESTHEPOPE! )

Other Comments by Ed-words

10. Comment #254163 by Sargeist on September 25, 2008 at 12:17 pm

"We don't go to Lourdes looking for miracles."

I'm sure the England team feels different about it.

Other Comments by Sargeist

11. Comment #254171 by firstelder_d on September 25, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Religion has its place in the mythology section.

Couldn't agree more. It will be a good day when all religion is viewed as mythology by everyone.

Other Comments by firstelder_d

12. Comment #254177 by Nietzschesbulldog on September 25, 2008 at 12:28 pm

"Benedict told reporters on the plane, "We don't go to Lourdes looking for miracles. The love of the mother (Mary) is the true healing."

Oh, holy father, we must be using two different meanings for the term "healing" when I use the word I mean actual healing; curing cancer, regrowing limbs, and the like and not empty platitudes . . . douche

Other Comments by Nietzschesbulldog

13. Comment #254178 by root2squared on September 25, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Well, a topic on which all atheists will agree.

But I have "faith" that somehow there's going to be disagreements and it will somehow become a thread on Islam. I'm just curious to see how.

Other Comments by root2squared

14. Comment #254180 by Sargeist on September 25, 2008 at 12:28 pm

Let's organise a quiet campaign to go into bookshops and move copies of the Koran into the "M" part of the fiction section.

Edit: Added the bloody context. Damn.

Other Comments by Sargeist

15. Comment #254197 by D'Arcy on September 25, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Well it must be hard times for Buddhism when the Dalai Llama can't visit 10 Downing Street in England, (he had to settle for Lambeth Palace instead because of the Olympics), and yet the pope can visit the Elysee Palace. This is just plain religious discrimination against certain holy men. I shall write to The Times about it.....not!

Yours disgruntedly,

D'Arcy of North London.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

16. Comment #254198 by PaulJ on September 25, 2008 at 12:47 pm

"The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies," he said.

He is such a card, is Pope Benny, spouting these wacko ideas.

The Catholic Church has recognized as miraculous 67 healings linked to Lourdes from 1858 to the present.

Wow! Sixty-Seven! In 150 years, that is an unbelievably poor record.

Other Comments by PaulJ

17. Comment #254201 by RainDear on September 25, 2008 at 12:49 pm

It's incredible how centuries of tradition are able to create credence out of nothing, no matter how preposterous the actual idea is.

Just think about the audacity of this Ratzinger guy. Nobody on this earth could possibly have a more distorted self-image than a man who seriously considers himself the authoritative and infallible representative of an omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent god, the master of the whole universe.

He must be the ultimate insane megalomaniac, or the most despicable swindler imaginable, preying on the gullibility and delusions of a billion people. Disgusting.

Other Comments by RainDear

18. Comment #254203 by EvidenceOnly on September 25, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Religion has NO place in politics.

Religion should open up to science, come to its senses that faith and evidence-based science are incompatible and therefore gradually obsolete itself.

Mankind has to finally come to grips with the fact that it is OK that we don't have all answers yet and that it is worthwhile to keep searching for understanding.

GodDidIt should have been left behind centuries ago.

Other Comments by EvidenceOnly

19. Comment #254221 by andraste77 on September 25, 2008 at 1:09 pm

"The very minute they start taking positions on political issues, they should be sent a warning letter that if the activity does not stop, their property and income taxes will be due the following month."

I agree Rod-the-farmer...and it should be retroactive!

Other Comments by andraste77

20. Comment #254232 by BarelyEvolved on September 25, 2008 at 1:19 pm

"The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies,"
- prove, then, how those values cannot be gained from secular philosophy, socialism, psychology, and reason but gained only through gullibly lapping up the crap shovelled by an old bloke reading some dodgy old book of fables. Sweden, France, Finland, et cetera are not built on these 'fundamental values' and are surviving pretty well.

Religious politicians can use their beliefs in politics, fine - as long as they back them up with something more than 'my invisible mate said so and he made the universe and that, so he should know better'.

"The shrine draws 6 million people annually, some of them disabled or desperately sick, many of them hoping for a miracle. The Catholic Church has recognized as miraculous 67 healings linked to Lourdes from 1858 to the present."
- You wonder why these sick folk bother. That's less than half a healing per year. I think I'd rather take my chances with the Afghan health service.

"We don't go to Lourdes looking for miracles. The love of the mother (Mary) is the true healing."
- Ah, the get-out clause. They go to somewhere that some girl thought she saw a woman, who everyone else assumed was some dead woman from the middle east, 150 years ago, to hopefully get some love from her. Amazing.

Other Comments by BarelyEvolved

21. Comment #254236 by kaiserkriss on September 25, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Ratty: Stay in your little state for ever.. And while you are at it, get rid of all the secular means that sustain you.

Surely prayer should be enough, especially when all your fellow travellers are doing the same, praying 24 / 7/ 365? Let your faith feed you, warm or cool you, provide the comforts of life through electricity, or internal combustion engine (eternal combustion engine?)

Just butt out, and continue to live in your imaginary universe, but don't tell ME how to live and expect ME to support your lifestyle through my tax $$! jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

22. Comment #254237 by D'Arcy on September 25, 2008 at 1:26 pm

Much as many of us would not like it, religion has a big hand in politics. The Vatican has immense investments in businesses all over the world. So does the CoE. And as for the Islamics' disdain of interest, it doesn't stop them buying assets in infidel countries. The dead hand of the past doesn't stop religion investing in current human exploitation to produce the profits of the future.

Anyone with capital has some political clout.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

23. Comment #254265 by Pony on September 25, 2008 at 1:51 pm

PaulJ, you need to put that in perspective. That's 67 healings out of 900 MILLION pilgrims, not just 150 years.

Other Comments by Pony

24. Comment #254272 by The Hogfather on September 25, 2008 at 2:01 pm

""The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies"

Well maybe if the phrase "Christian values" is in fact a synonym for decent moral behaviour in Pope speak. But why use the phrase "Christian values" rather than say Morality or Human values?

Or alternatively, the phrase could mean teaching ignorance in the Science class, Homophobia, Pedophilia or childhood indoctrination. If this definition is accurate then I think we are just fine without those "Christian values" thanks.

Other Comments by The Hogfather

25. Comment #254295 by Contrivanced on September 25, 2008 at 2:22 pm

I have a new respect for Francois Bayrou. Whoever he is.

Other Comments by Contrivanced

26. Comment #254301 by liberalartist on September 25, 2008 at 2:25 pm

"The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies," he said.

His ethics are not about religion in general, they are about Christianity (Roman Catholic in particular). The Rat is using the problems of Islam in a Secular France to get his flock back where he thinks it belongs. I think he sees the whole Islam issue of Europe as a solution to his irrelavance under secularism. So here he is, spreading his disgusting rhetoric like poison.

Other Comments by liberalartist

27. Comment #254347 by Swordmaiden on September 25, 2008 at 2:59 pm

"Lourdes was the last trip abroad for Benedict's predecessor, John Paul II. When John Paul visited in 2004, he was 84 and suffering the final ravages of Parkinson's disease. He needed to be helped by aides. He died in 2005."

...so there IS some hope then?

"The pope has said he is sorry for any offense his Regensburg remarks caused"

...is he also going to say "sorry" to all the HIV babies born in Africa and India as a result of his edict on condoms and abortion?

..just let me at 'im...or better still, let the verbal Rotweiller Christopher Hitchens at him!

Other Comments by Swordmaiden

28. Comment #254368 by PaulJ on September 25, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Comment #254265 by Pony:

PaulJ, you need to put that in perspective. That's 67 healings out of 900 MILLION pilgrims, not just 150 years.

Ah, but they weren't all seeking a miracle, apparently.

Other Comments by PaulJ

29. Comment #254391 by kaiserkriss on September 25, 2008 at 3:54 pm

67 healings in 900 million attempts are about the same odds as winning the 6-49 lotto. Yup, quite poor odds. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

30. Comment #254397 by Koreman on September 25, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Religion is nothing more and nothing else than politics.

Other Comments by Koreman

31. Comment #254425 by NewEnglandBob on September 25, 2008 at 4:52 pm

The presence of Christian values is fundamental for the survival of our nations and our societies

Comment #254272 by The Hogfather got it right.

There are no Christian values, Jewish values, Islamic values, Buddhist values, etc.

There are Human values. Religions try to usurp them and warp them for their own manipulative purposes.

This pope, like the current US president, is trying to move things back in the wrong direction.

Other Comments by NewEnglandBob

32. Comment #254427 by Jesus Jones on September 25, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Comment #254347 by Swordmaiden

Damn, you got in there before me! I too thought that interesting. The place where the faithful go to heal was visited by the previous pope...just before he died.

Hmmm, must not have been one of the chosen ones. Guess there's no need to make him a saint. The virgin Mary has spoken out against it in not healing him!

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33. Comment #254460 by CShepGuy on September 25, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Comment #254425 by NewEnglandBob

There are no Christian values, Jewish values, Islamic values, Buddhist values, etc.

There are Human values. Religions try to usurp them and warp them for their own manipulative purposes

I like this point. The Christian values quote from the pope was the one that perturbed me the most, also. How totally ignorant of all the people who embody most of these "Christian" values on their own, without a religion telling them to.

Other Comments by CShepGuy

34. Comment #254462 by Daniella on September 25, 2008 at 5:33 pm

spreading faith through violence is unreasonable.

Three words. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Other Comments by Daniella

35. Comment #254465 by alexmzk on September 25, 2008 at 5:41 pm

i get the idea that when Mr Ratzinger calls for religion and politics to be more open to each other, he's not calling for a politcal incursion into religion.

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36. Comment #254478 by Beachbum on September 25, 2008 at 6:22 pm

The Pope trying to reclaim the Roman Empire... again.

Other Comments by Beachbum

37. Comment #254482 by Ed-words on September 25, 2008 at 6:40 pm

--- a little digression---

Crooksandliars.com reports that Planned Parenthood is awash with donations in Sarah Palin's honor.

Thank you cards are being sent to the
Republican Party's headquarters.

Other Comments by Ed-words

38. Comment #254513 by j.mills on September 25, 2008 at 7:47 pm

What does this kind of specious rhetoric even MEAN? Put aside that nobody can agree what Christian values are, or why they should be regarded as exclusive to Christianity. What would it mean for "our nations and our societies" to not survive? Without Christianity we'd all just kill each other, would we? Idiot - but, note, an idiot unchallenged by journalists.

Other Comments by j.mills

39. Comment #254515 by croatcat on September 25, 2008 at 7:58 pm

But he added that societies must also be "more aware of the irreplaceable role of religion for the formation of consciences and the contribution which it can bring to -- among other things -- the creation of a basic ethical consensus within society."

Religion has only ever offered separation from day one.

Tezcatlipoca - Wasn't Sarkozy divorced and then remarried? I sure hope his popeness didn't give President Sarkozy the host!

Did you forget that famous saying: With Money/god all things are possible. :~)

Other Comments by croatcat

40. Comment #254527 by dragonfirematrix on September 25, 2008 at 8:27 pm

Mr. Pope,

Science is The Truth, The Light, and The Way. No man comes unto the truth except by proof.

and...

All religions are cults. Some cults are simply larger than others, but they are all still cults.

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41. Comment #254534 by William Kaiser on September 25, 2008 at 8:55 pm

Hey Mr. Pope how about getting all your followers to make this pledge? In your native German.

Ich schwore: Ich werde dem Fuhrer des Romisch Reiches und Volkes Joseph Alois Ratzinger treu und gehorsam sein, die Gesetze beachten, und meine Amtspflichten gewissenhaft erfullen, so wahr mir Gott helfe.

Now isn't that a great combination of religion and politics? What could possibly go wrong? ;-)

WK

P.S. Got to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler_oath for a translation.

P.P.S. Had to edit out the umlauts, seems they're not supported.

Other Comments by William Kaiser

42. Comment #254553 by jdaudett on September 25, 2008 at 10:36 pm

emphasis mine.

Why is it that religious folks don't seem to see that it's not their religion or any religion per se. It's fables and stories told to children in their formative years that develop their consciences. Hell, I think "Oh the Places You'll Go" by Dr. Seuss is just as good, if not better, than any religious story to tell a kid to shape their beliefs.

Other Comments by jdaudett

43. Comment #254556 by Greyman on September 25, 2008 at 10:48 pm

35. Comment #254465 by alexmzk on September 25, 2008 at 5:41 pm
I get the idea that when Mr Ratzinger calls for religion and politics to be more open to each other, he's not calling for a politcal incursion into religion.

Nope. Nor is he exactly calling for more Buddhist influence on politics. Nor Shinto. Nor Islamic. Nor Hindu. Nor, really, even more Church of England, Greek Orthodox, or …

Other Comments by Greyman

44. Comment #254558 by beanson on September 25, 2008 at 11:11 pm

Religion promotes basic ethical consensus!!!!!
How can he square this statemant with for example, Islamic demands for the subjugation of women. I can't imagine that many in the west would form a "basic ethical consensus" with certain core aspects of Islam.

Or does he only mean Chiristianity when he speaks of religion?- well of course it is just as morally bankrupt.

Speaking of which I was scandalised to see the two highest twats of the the Church of England make pronouncements about how evil was the practice of short selling in the stock market- fucking HYPOCRITES- as if the church does't make investments on the stock-market. words fail me...

Other Comments by beanson

45. Comment #254562 by jdaudett on September 25, 2008 at 11:41 pm

High five Beanson. I was feeling uneasy with that "ethical consensus" line, but I couldn't bring myself to argue with it because of "the golden rule".

Also, it makes me sick in general when religious people paint the world in black and white with the words "good and evil".

Other Comments by jdaudett

46. Comment #254563 by NoXion on September 26, 2008 at 12:02 am

jdaudett wrote:

High five Beanson. I was feeling uneasy with that "ethical consensus" line, but I couldn't bring myself to argue with it because of "the golden rule".

Which one's that then? "he who has the gold, makes the rules"? :P

Other Comments by NoXion

47. Comment #254565 by Philip1978 on September 26, 2008 at 12:15 am

I see Darth is still on his quest for ULTIMAAATE POWWEEERRR!

Diacanu was right, they do want it all, they are jealous and envious of everything they haven't got their disgusting fingers into. Trouble is they haven't the faintest idea of the consequences of their actions.

So, we know nothing about sex apart from the Bronze Age practices we learned from the Holy Libel, so lets interfere with it because we are RIGHT. So what if people are dying, they are dying according to God's will, so it must be a good thing, right?

What's next? Ah yes, we know next to nothing about politics but lets interfere anyway - you can make decisions by consulting God on any matter, that has got to work.

Oops, we know next to nothing, in fact most probably nothing at all about Science, lets interfere once again! We have it easier anyway, ours is the path of ignorance - God did it, that's all you need to know. Lets piggy back on the lab coats of really intelligent people and use it to our own advantage - Don't worry says Darth, you won't look stupid.

It simply doesn't occur to them to think there are other people on this Earth who have a right to disagree with them, talk about celestial dictatorship! :)

I for one would like to issue this statement to Darth, if he is reading this:

BUGGER OFF!

Other Comments by Philip1978

48. Comment #254568 by JemyM on September 26, 2008 at 12:33 am

Democracies must begin to recognize religions as ideologies. They cannot be given a freecard to skip the whole democratic process. That's not what a democracy is about.

Other Comments by JemyM

49. Comment #254570 by jdaudett on September 26, 2008 at 12:34 am

Lol NoXion. If I had lots of money ...

Nah, I mean the whole "Do unto others as you'd have done unto you" thing. They state it slightly differently in the bible by adding some supernatural mumbo jumbo.

You have to love the hypocrisy of Christians who say that their religion should be injected into government, even just based on the golden rule, without invoking the "give to Caesar what is Caesar's" line. Hi-larious.

Other Comments by jdaudett

50. Comment #254573 by sunbeamforjesus on September 26, 2008 at 12:48 am

Religion is power politics at it's most vituperative.
After fuckwits 1 & 2 ,Canterbury and York condemned the financial markets this week for short selling,we learn that good old C of E has it's own hedge fund management who short sell.Revenue over the last 5 years has averaged 9.5%.Of course this is tax free!
Perhaps fuckwits 1 & 2 would now like to explain and also tell us how their princely lifestyle is funded!

Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus

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