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Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'

by MSNBC

Thanks to Scott Hager for the link.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/

Earliest reference describes Christ as 'magician'
Bowl dated between late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D.

By By Jennifer Viegas

A bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., is engraved with what may be the world's first known reference to Christ. The engraving reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ.

If the word "Christ" refers to the Biblical Jesus Christ, as is speculated, then the discovery may provide evidence that Christianity and paganism at times intertwined in the ancient world.

The full engraving on the bowl reads, "DIA CHRSTOU O GOISTAIS," which has been interpreted by the excavation team to mean either, "by Christ the magician" or, "the magician by Christ."

"It could very well be a reference to Jesus Christ, in that he was once the primary exponent of white magic," Goddio, co-founder of the Oxford Center of Maritime Archaeology, said.

He and his colleagues found the object during an excavation of the underwater ruins of Alexandria's ancient great harbor. The Egyptian site also includes the now submerged island of Antirhodos, where Cleopatra's palace may have been located.

Both Goddio and Egyptologist David Fabre, a member of the European Institute of Submarine Archaeology, think a "magus" could have practiced fortune telling rituals using the bowl. The Book of Matthew refers to "wisemen," or Magi, believed to have been prevalent in the ancient world.

According to Fabre, the bowl is also very similar to one depicted in two early Egyptian earthenware statuettes that are thought to show a soothsaying ritual.

"It has been known in Mesopotamia probably since the 3rd millennium B.C.," Fabre said. "The soothsayer interprets the forms taken by the oil poured into a cup of water in an interpretation guided by manuals."

He added that the individual, or "medium," then goes into a hallucinatory trance when studying the oil in the cup.

"They therefore see the divinities, or supernatural beings appear that they call to answer their questions with regard to the future," he said.

The magus might then have used the engraving on the bowl to legitimize his supernatural powers by invoking the name of Christ, the scientists theorize.

Goddio said, "It is very probable that in Alexandria they were aware of the existence of Jesus" and of his associated legendary miracles, such as transforming water into wine, multiplying loaves of bread, conducting miraculous health cures, and the story of the resurrection itself.

While not discounting the Jesus Christ interpretation, other researchers have offered different possible interpretations for the engraving, which was made on the thin-walled ceramic bowl after it was fired, since slip was removed during the process.

Bert Smith, a professor of classical archaeology and art at Oxford University, suggests the engraving might be a dedication, or present, made by a certain "Chrestos" belonging to a possible religious association called Ogoistais.

Klaus Hallof, director of the Institute of Greek inscriptions at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy, added that if Smith's interpretation proves valid, the word "Ogoistais" could then be connected to known religious groups that worshipped early Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses, such as Hermes, Athena and Isis.

Hallof additionally pointed out that historians working at around, or just after, the time of the bowl, such as Strabon and Pausanias, refer to the god "Osogo" or "Ogoa," so a variation of this might be what's on the bowl. It is even possible that the bowl refers to both Jesus Christ and Osogo.

Fabre concluded, "It should be remembered that in Alexandria, paganism, Judaism and Christianity never evolved in isolation. All of these forms of religion (evolved) magical practices that seduced both the humble members of the population and the most well-off classes."

Posted: Wednesday, October 1, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #258073 by Contrivanced on October 1, 2008 at 12:03 pm

What a find for those guys. I can hear the contriversary brewing already. Although no religious person will believe it was from the time of Christ because they don't trust a scientist to date artifacts.

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2. Comment #258077 by ggab7768 on October 1, 2008 at 12:06 pm

All your sins are forgiven.
TA-DA!!!

Other Comments by ggab7768

3. Comment #258080 by decius on October 1, 2008 at 12:08 pm

This is old news.

Rowan Atkinson got it right. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTzXJMU1sLc

Other Comments by decius

4. Comment #258083 by Erik on October 1, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Why would the assumption be that the term "Christou", which, as I understand it, means "anointed", be a reference to Jesus?

Other Comments by Erik

5. Comment #258086 by Swordmaiden on October 1, 2008 at 12:13 pm

This is spooky cos today I wrote an essay which mentioned Jesus' miracles as "magic"....!
Wooo !
I used to know a philosopher who used what could be interpretted as "magic" as, what he called "a glint to catch the eye". Once he had your undevided attention you would be more prepared to listen to what he had to say. Maybe this is what JC did?

Other Comments by Swordmaiden

6. Comment #258087 by epeeist on October 1, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Comment #258073 by Contrivanced

Although no religious person will believe it was from the time of Christ because they don't trust a scientist to date artifacts.

You should have put a smiley after that.

If dating, by whatever means, shows that the world is older than 6000 years or that dinosaurs were earlier than humans, then the dating is wrong.

If the dating shows that the bowl could have come from around the time of Jesus then they will accept it without demur.

Until it actually shows the bowl is actually a couple of hundred years earlier than first thought...

Other Comments by epeeist

7. Comment #258107 by Sciros on October 1, 2008 at 12:29 pm

"Christ" wasn't his last name mind y'all... so at first glance this article is pretty much bollocks. A Greek translation of the word "messiah" from the 2nd century BC. Whatever.

Yes I used "y'all" and "bollocks" in the same sentence.

Other Comments by Sciros

8. Comment #258116 by sunbeamforjesus on October 1, 2008 at 12:37 pm

What's all the fuss about it's just an old pisspot that says what it's for on the side!

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9. Comment #258117 by Dinah on October 1, 2008 at 12:38 pm

I have a vague memory that there was a book, or books, published several decades ago claiming that Christ was a magician, and that he used 'magic mushrooms' or something to fake his own death. I don't remember the name of the author.

Update: The author was John Allegro and the book was 'The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross'.

Other Comments by Dinah

10. Comment #258119 by godsbelow on October 1, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Discussed this cup last week in my ancient history honours class. My tutor made some relevent points about it (he's a papyrologist who specialises in Roman Egypt - so he knows his stuff):

1) the date is very early, maybe too early for this to be a Christian reference
2) Chrestos is a common Greek name
3) the other word is unparallelled - it could be a misspelling of the Greek word for magician

Naturally the cup's finders wanna get as much attention for their finds as possible. But on the whole it doesn't add up to much as historical evidence for early christianity.

But you can just see the jesus-fanatics saying its the holy grail!

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11. Comment #258130 by jeepyjay on October 1, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Dinah. You're thinking of John Allegro:

http://www.johnallegro.org/main/

At the time I thought his ideas were Quite Interesting as Stephen Fry would now say.

Other Comments by jeepyjay

12. Comment #258133 by mismos00 on October 1, 2008 at 12:57 pm

The only way you'd use magic mushrooms to fake your own death is to not take any but give them to everyone else around you.

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13. Comment #258134 by Sciros on October 1, 2008 at 12:58 pm

The only way you'd use magic mushrooms to fake your own death is to not take any but give them to everyone else around you.

It all depends on the magic those mushrooms hold. It may be illusion magic, it may be conjuration, etc.

Other Comments by Sciros

14. Comment #258165 by 8teist on October 1, 2008 at 1:48 pm

That engraving looks rather fresh to me.

Considering the supposed age of the artifact.

Other Comments by 8teist

15. Comment #258166 by mitch_486 on October 1, 2008 at 1:56 pm

You guys/girls ever wonder what present day christians would do if they were sent back to the early first century AD?
I'm serious, they have no idea what times were like in that era. No medicine, bad hygiene etc..
It would be like dropping a random species on a random planet in spore.

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16. Comment #258198 by bachfiend on October 1, 2008 at 2:51 pm

A similar article was published in "der Spiegel" 3 weeks ago, and it also pointed out that Chrestos was a common Greek given name. The article goes on to note that there are so far 10 expert opinions of the bowl, and that they are all different. The article also noted that the bowl is to be displayed in Madrid, in an appropriate place for the coming arguments and debate about the significance of the bowl, in a converted slaughterhouse.

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17. Comment #258211 by Ex~ on October 1, 2008 at 3:25 pm

This is totally non-news, CHRSTOU could be anyone.

Other Comments by Ex~

18. Comment #258214 by mordacious1 on October 1, 2008 at 3:35 pm

We must follow the bowl!

No, follow the sandal!

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19. Comment #258215 by a non e-moose on October 1, 2008 at 3:36 pm

You guys/girls ever wonder what present day christians would do if they were sent back to the early first century AD?
I'm serious, they have no idea what times were like in that era. No medicine, bad hygiene etc..
It would be like dropping a random species on a random planet in spore.

I once debated a christian who claimed a 1st century christian would think he was 'in the bowls of the beast' if he was brought to america in 2008. You know, with all the fetus killing and such going on.

anyway, I agree that this is totally non-news. All it really states is that someone found an old piece of pottery, the evidence for any of the other claims is weak to say the least.

Other Comments by a non e-moose

20. Comment #258221 by chewedbarber on October 1, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Why would the assumption be that the term "Christou", which, as I understand it, means "anointed", be a reference to Jesus?

Cause then you read about the find.

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21. Comment #258232 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Sciros,

Yes I used "y'all" and "bollocks" in the same sentence.

Awesome.

Dinah,

There's this one, too; Jesus the Magician: Charlatan or Son of God?

Jesus was a magician. He helped reason disappear for another two thousand years. I would have preferred a card trick.

Other Comments by SPS

22. Comment #258238 by andraste77 on October 1, 2008 at 4:29 pm

I'm predicting this one goes the way of the "James Ossuary." Fake...Fake...Faaaaake.

Other Comments by andraste77

23. Comment #258239 by Rawhard Dickins on October 1, 2008 at 4:30 pm

This is only of interest to the weak-minded and most gullible of humanity.

He's in there with tooth-fairies and the like, just as we thought.

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24. Comment #258255 by Azven on October 1, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Or it could mean annointed by the magician, which would make sense as it's a bowl for holding the oil or water for annointing.

Other Comments by Azven

25. Comment #258259 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 5:14 pm

Bet no one's thought of looking in the cup for a white rabbit, eh? Or a string of hankies...

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26. Comment #258261 by Lucas on October 1, 2008 at 5:18 pm

It's a spaghetti bowl. Spaghetti with mushrooms.

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27. Comment #258263 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 5:20 pm

Lucas, no it isn't. They didn't have top hats in those days so this is how early magicians cunjured rabbits. We say now "A rabbit out of the hat". In them days they said "A rabbit in every pot". I can dig out an obscure references verifying this (as soon as I learn a smidge of late Classical Greek... ;-))

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28. Comment #258268 by 8teist on October 1, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Off topic,sorry, But......its a miracle http://www.stuff.co.nz/4712331a6016.html?source=RSSauckland/headlines_20081002

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29. Comment #258269 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 5:31 pm

Totally, completely off topic, but...

Teen robbed by topless blondes

A Florida teenager claims he was attacked and robbed by four topless blonde women on his way to work.

Olmer Morales, 18, told police the attack happened as he rode his bike to work one morning in Stuart, Martin County.

A heavy-set blonde woman wearing a white long sleeved shirt and overalls stopped him by grabbing his handle bars, according to the police report.

Four thinner blonde-haired women, all wearing overalls with no shirts and no bras, then surrounded him and stole the $100 (£56) in his back pocket, Mr Morales told deputies.

Authorities searched the area but didn't find any of the suspects, reports TC Palm.

In Ananova.com

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30. Comment #258270 by 8teist on October 1, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Heckfire,Goldy, some guys get all the luck.
Tho getting grabbed by the handlebar could have been nasty.

edit don`t suppose there`s a identikit picture,also no doubt the police station will be packed when it comes time for a line up................I got a million of them ....

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31. Comment #258273 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 5:37 pm

Goldy,

I heard about a story years ago about a woman who robbed a bank while wearing a sheer, see-through shirt, supposedly to distract people from looking at her face.
When will the tyranny of the topless end!

Edit: Shakes fist in air.

Other Comments by SPS

32. Comment #258274 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Never happen in Auckland - no one is that classy here. Instead, we get http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10535025

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33. Comment #258279 by Dispiracist on October 1, 2008 at 5:57 pm

8teist

The sad thing with the bible discovery link is that these folks probably aren't even religiously motivated. I think you have to be from NZ to truly appreciate local archaeology. Having been settled in the 14th century there is a desperate shortage of anything that could be interpreted as historically interesting.

At least they didn't just make up the story - surely they couldn't have!

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34. Comment #258281 by Bonzai on October 1, 2008 at 6:05 pm

SPS

I heard about a story years ago about a woman who robbed a bank while wearing a sheer, see-through shirt, supposedly to distract people from looking at her face.

Why didn't she just wear a veil?

Other Comments by Bonzai

35. Comment #258282 by Ed-words on October 1, 2008 at 6:11 pm

I heard he could pull Satan out of a hat.

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36. Comment #258284 by SPS on October 1, 2008 at 6:17 pm

Bonzai,

If I recall correctly, she wore a large-brimmed hat. There may have been a veil, don't know. I suspect she may have been wearing a coat prior to entering the bank, but I'm not sure.

Other Comments by SPS

37. Comment #258289 by Gondooley on October 1, 2008 at 6:38 pm

Back to the topic,

Ummm, the letters in the article don't quite match the ones on the bowl.

D I A KH R { } T O U

I can accept that the curly thing could be sigma, but the chair-like symbol has gone unreported! At a stretch maybe its a way of writing eta which I haven't seen before? This would make it DIA KHRESTOS alright, but now I feel I'm turning the evidence into something I wish to see, which makes me very sceptical.

Answers on the back of a pot to the usual address, please.

Update:
-------
Ah, how bloody interesting. I'm not the only one who thinks it's suspect:

http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/2008/09/early-christian-cup-dia-chrestou.html

Here I go into conspiracy mode. It would of course be far more interesting to Jill T. Public if the pot was something to do with Christ. On the gentlest of glances at the above link, it appears that 'chrestos' has something to do with the word 'good'. How to keep alive the attention-grabbing association? - oh just leave out a letter! With the Greek letter Chi (KH above) everyone will count the same number of letters and be happy anyway.

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38. Comment #258309 by Serious on October 1, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Probably some other "Christ"; religions and gods were a dime a dozen then.

Alternatively, if the cup is determined to be B.C. we obviously have a miracle on our hands.

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39. Comment #258312 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Serious

Probably some other "Christ"; religions and gods were a dime a dozen then.

Alternatively, if the cup is determined to be B.C. we obviously have a miracle on our hands.

Not even a miracle

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2822,Tablet-Ignites-Debate-on-Messiah-and-Resurrection,New-York-Times,page1#comments

Other Comments by Goldy

40. Comment #258339 by marshall1 on October 1, 2008 at 8:43 pm

Very interesting...

If it is authentic, and if it is referring to Christ, someone really believed that this guy was doing something other worldly. Pretty spooky for you Atheist's. Better hope that you've made the right bet.

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41. Comment #258340 by Goldy on October 1, 2008 at 8:46 pm

Pretty spooky for you Atheist's. Better hope that you've made the right bet.

It's alright. One god out of thousands. Heck, even the Jews don't think Jesus was a Christ and they are God's chosen race :-)
Safe bet, atheism :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

42. Comment #258341 by Sciros on October 1, 2008 at 8:49 pm

Um, on that avatar it looks like the dude kneeling at the cross is about to get jumped by a horse with a raging boner. Just sayin'

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43. Comment #258342 by cerebate on October 1, 2008 at 8:58 pm

Comment #258339 by marshall1

Better hope that you've made the right bet.

Not believing in Christ is the easiest bet. If your right , then you havent been fooled all your life. If your wrong , and do meet him in the afterlife, then beg forgiveness. Surely Christ would forgive you?

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44. Comment #258344 by 8teist on October 1, 2008 at 9:11 pm

ho,Marshall, you`re so desperate.

Magic tricks are hardly other worldly.

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45. Comment #258348 by HourglassMemory on October 1, 2008 at 9:30 pm

Interesting. Interesting.
I won't be surprised if it turns out to be a fake in some way or another.
I'll wait for more people to look into it.

But if it indeed IS mentioning christ, which could be argued, then I think that it's quite a blow to the church. Calling Jesus a magician.
Just think...nothing more than a magician...whose fame got out of porpotion because ignorant people believed in his tricks, whatever type they were.

But what kind of magician? Rabbit out of the hat/coin behind your ear, sort of magician? Or a "deep" magician, like a sage...or as it wouldn't be surprising in those days, ANOTHER guy claiming to be the messiah?

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46. Comment #258351 by Dispiracist on October 1, 2008 at 10:06 pm

This has to be some kind of practical joke.

The shape of the 'bowl' looks suspiciously similar to what previous generations knew as chamber pots. Chamber pots are commonly inscribed with witty remarks.

This one probably translates to something more mundane like 'dia rho eia gastro enteritis' or 'do not eat, contains toxic material'

There is an ancient ritual, long forgotten in our modern era of flush toilets and metropolitan sewerage systems. This involves scrutinising one's output for evidence of future bad news. Physicians could diagnose some basic medical problems this way. It could easily be misinterpreted as a soothsaying ritual.

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47. Comment #258358 by DoobyTheCat on October 1, 2008 at 11:15 pm

This is about as newsworthy as finding a grape adorned with an image of Mary.

Could I interest anyone in a, slightly used, set of Shroud of Turin bed linens?

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48. Comment #258364 by 8teist on October 1, 2008 at 11:54 pm

Dooby,I`ll swap you a piece of wood from the one true cross...............honest.

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49. Comment #258367 by Pertwee's Bouffant on October 2, 2008 at 12:04 am

And Jesus sayeth unto his disciples: "You'll like it. Not a lot, but you'll like it... Just like that... etc"

And they were amazed, for they had never seen anything like this before.

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50. Comment #258369 by Philip1978 on October 2, 2008 at 12:21 am

It says Christos the Magician, so what?

Does it actually say Yehoshua Mashiyach? No.

Does it say Yehoshua Mi'Nazareth? Still no.

Anyone who gets excited by this is going to laughed at by me, I promise, I will be nice about about it, but I will laugh considerably if anyone wants to claim this as proof of Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Or as translation would have it- The Anointed Rescuer - what were the chances of the saviour of mankind having that name I do wonder?

Load of bollocks.

Next!

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