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Thursday, October 2, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Why I left Young-earth Creationism

by Glenn R. Morton

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm

For years I struggled to understand how the geologic data I worked with everyday could be fit into a Biblical perspective. Being a physics major in college I had no geology courses. Thus, as a young Christian, when I was presented with the view that Christians must believe in a young-earth and global flood, I went along willingly. I knew there were problems but I thought I was going to solve them. When I graduated from college with a physics degree, physicists were unemployable since NASA had just laid a bunch of them off. I did graduate work in philosophy and then decided to leave school to support my growing family. Even after a year, physicists were still unemployable. After six months of looking, I finally found work as a geophysicist working for a seismic company. Within a year, I was processing seismic data for Atlantic Richfield.

This was where I first became exposed to the problems geology presented to the idea of a global flood. I would see extremely thick (30,000 feet) sedimentary layers. One could follow these beds from the surface down to those depths where they were covered by vast thicknesses of sediment. I would see buried mountains which had experienced thousands of feet of erosion, which required time. Yet the sediments in those mountains had to have been deposited by the flood, if it was true. I would see faults that were active early but not late and faults that were active late but not early. I would see karsts and sinkholes (limestone erosion) which occurred during the middle of the sedimentary column (supposedly during the middle of the flood) yet the flood waters would have been saturated in limestone and incapable of dissolving lime. It became clear that more time was needed than the global flood would allow.(See http://www.seg.org/publications/geoarchive/1996/sep-oct/geo6105r1336.pdf for an article showing an example of a deeply buried karst. For a better but bigger (3.4 meg) version of that paper see http://www.netl.doe.gov/publications/proceedings/97/97ng/ng97_pdf/NG4-1.PDF

One also finds erosional canyons buried in the earth. These canyons would require time to excavate, just like the time it takes to erode the Grand Canyon. This picture was downloaded from a site which is now gone from the web. It was http://ic.ucsc.edu/~casey/eart168/3DInterpretation/Deltain3d1.gif

graphic

I worked hard over the next few years to solve these problems. I published 20+ items in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. I would listen to ICR, have discussions with people like Slusher, Gish, Austin, Barnes and also discuss things with some of their graduates that I had hired.

In order to get closer to the data and know it better, with the hope of finding a solution, I changed subdivisions of my work in 1980. I left seismic processing and went into seismic interpretation where I would have to deal with more geologic data. My horror at what I was seeing only increased. There was a major problem; the data I was seeing at work, was not agreeing with what I had been taught as a Christian. Doubts about what I was writing and teaching began to grow. Unfortunately, my fellow young earth creationists were not willing to listen to the problems. No one could give me a model which allowed me to unite into one cloth what I believed on Sunday and what I was forced to believe by the data Monday through Friday. I was living the life of a double-minded man--believing two things.

By 1986, the growing doubts about the ability of the widely accepted creationist viewpoints to explain the geologic data led to
a nearly 10 year withdrawal from publication. My last young-earth paper was entitled Geologic Challenges to a Young-earth, which I presented as the first paper in the First International Conference on Creationism. It was not well received. Young-earth creationists don't like being told they are wrong. The reaction to the pictures, seismic data, the logic disgusted me. They were more interested in what I sounded like than in the data!

John Morris came to the stage to challenge me. He claimed to have been in the oil industry. I asked him what oil company he had worked for. I am going to let an account of this published in the Skeptical Inquirer in late 86 or early 87. It was written by Robert Schadewald. He writes,

"John Morris went to the microphone and identified himself as a petroleum geologist. He questioned Morton's claim that pollen grains are found in salt formations, and accused Morton of sounding like an anticreationist, raising more problems than his critics could respond to in the time available. Morris said that the ICR staff is working on these problems all the time. He told Morton to quit raising problems and start solving them. "Morton chopped him off at the ankles. Two questions, said Morton: 'What oil company did you work for?' Well, uh, actually Morris never worked for an oil company, but he once taught petroleum engineering at the University of Oklahoma. Second, How old is the Earth?' 'If the earth is more than 10,000 years old then Scripture has no meaning.' Morton then said that he had hired several graduates of Christian Heritage College, and that all of them suffered severe crises of faith. The were utterly unprepared to face the geologic facts every petroleum geologist deals with on a daily basis. Morton neglected to add that ICR is much better known for ignoring or denying problems than dealing with them."

It appeared that the more I questions I raised, the more they questioned my theological purity. When telling one friend of my difficulties with young-earth creationism and geology, he told me that I had obviously been brain-washed by my geology professors. When I told him that I had never taken a geology course, he then said I must be saying this in order to hold my job. Never would he consider that I might really believe the data. Since then this type of treatment has become expected from young-earthers. I have been called nearly everything under the sun but they don't deal with the data I present to them. Here is a list of what young-earthers have called me in response to my data: 'an apostate,'(Humphreys) 'a heretic'(Jim Bell although he later apologised like the gentleman he is) 'a compromiser'(Henry Morris) "absurd", "naive", "compromising", "abysmally ignorant", "sloppy", "reckless disregard", "extremely inaccurate", "misleading", "tomfoolery" and "intentionally deceitful"(John Woodmorappe) 'like your father, Satan' (Carl R. Froede--I am proud to have this one because Jesus was once said to have been of satan also.) 'your loyality and commitment to Jesus Christ is shaky or just not truly genuine' (John Baumgardner 12-24-99 [Merry Christmas]) "[I] have secretly entertained suspicions of a Trojan horse roaming behind the lines..." Royal Truman 12-28-99

Above I say that I with drew from publishing for 10 years. I need to make one item clear. It is true that I published a couple of items in the late 80s. The truth is that these were an edited letter exchange I had with George Howe. When George approached me about the Mountain Building symposium, I told him I didn't want to write it. He said that was ok he would write it, give it to me for ok and then publish it. Since it was merely splicing a bunch of letters together, it was my words, but George's editorship that made that article. To all intents and purposes I was through with young-earth creationist (not ism yet) because I knew that they didn't care about the data.

But eventually, by 1994 I was through with young-earth creationISM. Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.

"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true? ,"

That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either. One man I could not reach, to ask that question, had a crisis of faith about two years after coming into the oil industry. I do not know what his spiritual state is now but he was in bad shape the last time I talked to him.

And being through with creationism, I very nearly became through with Christianity. I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist. During that time, I re-read a book I had reviewed prior to its publication. It was Alan Hayward's Creation/Evolution. Even though I had reviewed it 1984 prior to its publication in 1985, I hadn't been ready for the views he expressed. He presented a wonderful Days of Proclamation view which pulled me back from the edge of atheism. Although I believe Alan applied it to the earth in an unworkable fashion, his view had the power to unite the data with the Scripture, if it was applied differently. That is what I have done with my views. Without that I would now be an atheist. There is much in Alan's book I agree with and much I disagree with but his book was very important in keeping me in the faith. While his book may not have changed the debate totally yet, it did change my life.


References
For an example of a seismic karst during the middle of the geologic column go to

http://seg.org/

Select 'publications' from that page

Select 'Geoarchives'

Select '1996'

Select 'September and October'

Select 'pdf' from 3-D seismic reflection tomography on top of the GOCAD depth modeler
Jean Luc Guiziou, Jean Laurent Mallet and Raül Madariaga

Scroll down to page 6-8 on the acrobat reader. These are pages 1341-1343 of the original journal.

There you will see 3d seismic data that shows evidence of a subaerial erosional event supposedly in the middle of a world wide flood!

For those who want to go to the library it is Vol. 61, No. 5
September-October 1996 Geophysics.

Comments 1 - 50 of 85 |

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1. Comment #258749 by Richard Dawkins on October 2, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarI think this is interesting, because of what it tells us about the way these people think. He is kind of honest, in a weird sort of way, and should get some credit for that. I get the feeling it wouldn't take much for him to abandon religion altogether.
Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

2. Comment #258756 by jimbob on October 2, 2008 at 10:36 am

Glenn, shrug off the rest of the dogma. You'll feel like the weight of a young earth has been lifted from your shoulders!

Other Comments by jimbob

3. Comment #258757 by decius on October 2, 2008 at 10:37 am

 avatar
I was on the very verge of becoming an atheist.


God forbid! What a repulsive idea.

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4. Comment #258762 by zeroangel on October 2, 2008 at 10:43 am

 avatar
Without that I would now be an atheist.


Wouldn't want that would we? Jeez.

Belief that the Earth is 6000 yrs old: Unscientific and counter to the evidence.

Belief that the creator of the Universe is a personal, caring being, that sent himself (his son?) to Earth via virgin birth to cleanse our sins: Totally OK.

*shrug*

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5. Comment #258763 by blitz442 on October 2, 2008 at 10:43 am

This reminds me very much of own experience in biology and I would be curious about the author's views about evolution. If he still does not believe in evolution, and he undertook to aquaint himself with the data (in the same way he did with geology) and presented this to creationistsm would he not get the same disappointing responses and personal attacks?

"Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true"....would that not be same for biology, cosmology, physics, logic and reason in general???

Other Comments by blitz442

6. Comment #258765 by Saber on October 2, 2008 at 10:46 am

I don't care if he decides to abandon his religion. It's enough that he's embraced reason. This is how we'll eventually win the argument, by showing the differences between what we hope to be true and what we can know to be true.

Other Comments by Saber

7. Comment #258775 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatarI know Glenn Morton - he has helped us at the BCSE and I highly respect him.

However, he is highly unusual. He has really used his intellect to over-ride his emotion. Very few of the creationists or IDers that I have ever debated with online are capable of using their intellect. The whole shooting match is about emotion.

Moreover, whilst most of the "debate" about creationism centres on biology and the theory of evolution, Glenn's background is in geology where the pro-science arguments are much more easily demonstratable (just look at the landscape).

I can't take John Morris seriously. His father (Henry Morris) was a hydraulic engineer who did a PhD in the subject "to prove" that a literal interpretation of the BIble was "true". (i.e. that Noah's Flood could have happened.) He did not go in with an open mind. I dunno what Richard thinks but it seems to me that in any undergraduate or post graduate course at all but the lowest grade of university (such as the creationist universities in the USA, BJU, etc.), an open mind is essential. You simply cannot learn without it.

As Royal Holloway College has pointed out to me, it's getting creationist students who, because of their "beliefs" are essentially unteachable. I've been through universities four times and what I came out knowing bears little resemblance to my pre-conceived ideas about what I expected to learn before I entered each course.

Lenny Flank (over ar Debunk Creation) has been fighting creationisn for 25 years and says that in all that time, he has only ever seen a couple of creationists change their minds and accept mainstream science.

My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that the problem runs deeper than science v religion. With creationism you're dealing with a fundamentalist mindset. That is an ideology that ecompasses far more that just "creationism". Even in the are event of there being a "conversion" to mainstream science, the extreemism and ideological mindset remain.

I don't, incidentally, think that is the case at all with Glenn.


Roger Stanyard, British Centre for Science Education

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

8. Comment #258776 by Cartomancer on October 2, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatarOthers have already indicated quite how much of an unpalatable thing the word atheist is for this man. He has a habituated, unexamined prejudice against the word atheist, which really seems to be the only reason he didn't admit that he really, secretly, in a way he can't yet acknowledge even to himself, is one.

Clearly the Alan Hayward book was the first straw he could clutch at in order to have some kind of fig leaf to hide his nascent atheism - both from his peer group and from himself. If he had carried through his skepticism in a logical and coherent manner then he would have come to the same conclusion about christianity as he did about young-earth creationism.

It's clearly apologetics claptrap, but I would be interested to know precisely what this book says that Morton found so appealing. What is a "Days of Proclamation" view anyway?

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9. Comment #258777 by sunbeamforjesus on October 2, 2008 at 10:53 am

I Agree,an interesting article if nothing new.Odd though that he still clings to religion even though he has basically disproved the dogma.What more does he need to see through it all?

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10. Comment #258780 by JFHalsey on October 2, 2008 at 10:56 am

I've forwaded the original link to my parents, YECs who brainwashed me quite thouroughly in my impressionable years.

I actually came out of the brainwashing much more painfully; I never even heard an actual scientist's rebuttal to YEC claims until after I became an atheist; in fact, it was my budding atheism that drove me to see, "if all these claims I've been taught are true, how the hell do scientists claim otherwise?"

Glenn's article was copyrighted 2000; he could very well be atheist by now. Or, he could have successfully compartmentalized, like so many Catholics. But stories like his are important, even if the ending was a little depressing.

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11. Comment #258785 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 11:03 am

 avatarOne point about the ICR and its graduates.

It appears that not one of them has ever put their money where their mouth is and set up a mineral/oil exportation company using "Flood Geology".

This is more than a minor point. A huge proportion of geologists is not in academia - but actively working for commercial companies. They (and the creationists) cannot argue that "creationism" is subject to a scientific conspiracy by "liberals" or whatnot.

All the creationists need to do is to show how their alternative "flood geology" leads to finding resources more effectively and they are sure onto a winner. The mineral exploration companies will be banging on their doors with employment contracts.

Perhaps Andy McIntosh might like to substantiate his claim that coal can be formed in a few hours by telling the energy industry where this process can be seen in action today. He'd make a damn fortune if he did.

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12. Comment #258786 by Cartomancer on October 2, 2008 at 11:03 am

 avatar
As Royal Holloway College has pointed out to me, it's getting creationist students who, because of their "beliefs" are essentially unteachable. I've been through universities four times and what I came out knowing bears little resemblance to my pre-conceived ideas about what I expected to learn before I entered each course.
Has anyone got any reliable statistics for university-level students in Britain and the US concerning professed belief in young-earth creationism (or religion in general)? I say this because I have never actually met a student who is a young-earth creationist in my entire time at Oxford (I am now entering my seventh year of study here), nor do any of my friends who went to other UK universities report having ever encountered one. I've heard Professor Steve Jones talk about how it was simply unheard of to meet them ten or twenty years ago, but it happens today.

I have met one or two students who claim religiosity in some cultural, ephemeral, feel-good sense, and even one who claims belief in god (ironically enough the son of a literature professor who was briefly a fellow of New College alongside Richard in the seventies), but no actual creationists.

Just how big a problem is it?

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13. Comment #258787 by Richard Dawkins on October 2, 2008 at 11:04 am

 avatarI've read a book by Alan Hayward (probably the one that 'rescued' Glenn Morton). It's really bad, a truly pathetic straw to have grasped.
Richard

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14. Comment #258794 by joe72 on October 2, 2008 at 11:13 am

Indeed, interesting read.
I liked the way he described how shocking it was that reality differed to what had been taught to him through religion. For some of us that pressure is hard to fathom. The question is - is that pressure from family? Is it social? Does it represent a challenge to his logical processing that knowledge is passed down through generations rather than discovered, uncovered and proven?

I think understanding that is the key to undoing the delusion.

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15. Comment #258796 by Cartomancer on October 2, 2008 at 11:15 am

 avatarApparently the "Days of Proclamation" view is a piece of theological apologetics which sees the first chapters of Genesis as some kind of divine statement of intent, rather than a narration of the actual events that were supposed to have gone into creating the universe. I found an article on it here, by our good friend Glenn Morton:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/daysofproclamation.htm

Sounds just like the traditional theological mind-gymnastics that have been used to save face for thousands of years to me. He even mentions venerable old Clement of Alexandria. Sadly lacking in any kind of evidence-based reasoning unfortunately, but that's par for the course with this sort of thing. My suspicions are confirmed.

Why am I not at all surprised?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

16. Comment #258799 by Janus on October 2, 2008 at 11:19 am

 avatarI've had a few exchanges with Glenn at christianforums.com a few years ago. He's a really weird guy. He's the only person I know whose mindset is so close to the one required to become a critical thinker in the full sense of the word, but who still manages to hang on to his religious beliefs. It's not just that he's smart, it's that I think he really cares about what's true, which is something that is incredibly rare among religious believers. People who don't care about what's true are those who won't follow a chain of reasoning to the end, or who will simply deny the evidence that's in front of them, or who will devolve into a mushy brand of postmodernism. I don't think Glenn does any of those things.

If it wasn't for him I would have said that anyone who cares about the truth and who isn't ignorant is necessarily going to become an atheist. Because of Glenn I have to say "_almost_ anyone".

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17. Comment #258808 by gustavoabreu on October 2, 2008 at 11:26 am

what's "Days of Proclamation"?

thanks

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18. Comment #258812 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 11:30 am

 avatarBlitz442 comments about Glenn ""Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true"....would that not be same for biology, cosmology, physics, logic and reason in general???"

IIRC Glenn accepts all of mainstream science including evolutionary biology.

In reply to Cartmancer, BCSE is aware of two graduates from Oxford who are young earth creationists - Richard Buggs (PhDE in biological sciences, felft 2006) and David Anderson with a 1st and masters in maths (left around 2003). Neither are now resident in the UK.

In addition there appears to be a couple of IDers amongst the academic staff, one of whom is John Lennox (i'm just about to read his latest book on the matter.)

It seems that Oxford has been targeted by creationists. There is a fair amount of info on the matter on our web site at www.bcseweb.org.uk

The fundamentalists have gained controlled of Wycliffe Hall.

I was at a debate last year between Steve Fuller and Lweis Wolpert. It was held at Royal Holloway and amongst the audience there were clearly a number of creationists. I did notice, though, that Muslims seemed to be the most vocal amongst them.

Where the creationists are "getting" at the universities is through evangelical Christian Unions. The overall body overseeing the CUs appears to have been heavily infiltrated by creationists.

I certainly never noticed any fundamentalists whilst I was an undergraduate (or postgraduate) but then I am one of the "Godless Scum of Gower Street). Andy McIntosh was a contemporary of mine at Cranfield Institute of Technology. I don't recall him there, though.

Roger Stanyard, British Centre for Science Education

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

19. Comment #258813 by SteveN on October 2, 2008 at 11:32 am

 avatarIt was Glenn Morton who coined the phrase Morton's Demon to describe the data filter creationists use to block exposure to evidence that contradicts their beliefs. Despite his failure to 'go all the way', I applaud Glenn for having the guts to get rid of his demon.

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20. Comment #258818 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 11:35 am

 avatarJanus,

40% of American scientists do believe in religion. In that sense, Glenn is far from being odd. He's pretty well mainstream.

Why America still clings to religion, though, is another matter. I'm baffled by the country.

Roger Stanyard, British Centre for Science Education

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

21. Comment #258823 by cerad on October 2, 2008 at 11:41 am

 avatarI also remember Glenn from christianforums.com. Glenn does not accept all mainstream science. In particular, because science cannot currently explain the origin of the universe Glenn concludes that science can never explain it. And therefore God must have done it.

Still, he is fun to read.

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22. Comment #258832 by Ed-words on October 2, 2008 at 12:01 pm

"Young-earth creationists don't like being told they're wrong." (Christian humility?)


More evidence of the addictive power of faith.

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23. Comment #258835 by flobear on October 2, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarI can't help but admire Glenn. He's come such a far way and I'm not sure I could have done the same had I been born in his circumstances.

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24. Comment #258836 by Rational_Skeptic on October 2, 2008 at 12:05 pm

 avatar
My own opinion, for what it is worth, is that the problem runs deeper than science v religion. With creationism you're dealing with a fundamentalist mindset. That is an ideology that ecompasses far more that just "creationism."

I heard a very interesting radio programme a few years ago on our public broadcaster in Canada. It was about a high profile negotiator (terrible memory - I can't remember his name and I can't find the reference) who had much success with the most complex and contentious disputes, which in this country deal with First Nations land and resource claims. One of his most famous successes dealt with the fishery in British Columbia.
The interviewer asked him the secret to his success at getting negotiated settlements with two (or more) seemingly intransigent and polarized sides. I'll never forget what he said: "You've got to keep in mind: it's not about the fish." The rest of the hour-long programme was about how the real issues are about something else: identity, power, culture, autonomy, etc. Once he can find out what the REAL issues are, he can work to address those as part of a solution to the "presenting" issues: fish, land, etc.
So, whenever I have an argument with someone about issues like free speech, abortion, evolution, etc. or even an argument with my teenager about doing the dishes for that matter, I remember "it's not about the fish" - which in the case of evolution is quite iconic if you pause a moment and think about it...

I wish I could find reference to that programme on CBC, help appreciated in that regard.

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25. Comment #258837 by drrob on October 2, 2008 at 12:05 pm

Days of Proclamation seems to say that god said that he created the plan for the universe but then it took 4 billion years for the plan to get realised. So old earth creationsism same as Catholics kind of.

I found this link:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/daysofproclamation.htm

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26. Comment #258848 by Janus on October 2, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarRoger,

Sure. But that a person is a scientist doesn't mean that she cares about the truth. Many scientists see 'science' as a job, not as a way of thinking.

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27. Comment #258851 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 12:20 pm

 avatarRational Skpetic - thanks for the comments about the CBC programme. I must admit that is roughly the way I seen things. It seems to me that creationism is nothing more than a subset of fundamentalism which in turn, is part of the culture wars in the USA. A war, if you like, between backward and progressive America or between reason/thinking and emotion or between education and ignorance.

Identity, power and culture are central to it.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

28. Comment #258865 by Swordmaiden on October 2, 2008 at 12:40 pm

 avatar"I've read a book by Alan Hayward (probably the one that 'rescued' Glenn Morton). It's really bad, a truly pathetic straw to have grasped.
Richard "

So why does someone who has obviously used evidential reasoning to conclude about the young-earth theory still grasp the tentative straws of faith? I think it is a deep fear. I recently lost my faith and it was the hardest thing I have ever had to do, I still struggle because this goes deep into ones subconscious. I realise that I was believing what I wanted to believe,and it helped me live my life. It is actually very hard to step out without the "crutch" which once supported you for many years. I presume that this man is at least on the path to finding that courage though his obvious honesty and humility.

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29. Comment #258895 by 5keptical on October 2, 2008 at 1:20 pm

 avatarRational_Skeptic: I remember listening to that CBC program... try looking in the archive for the "Ideas" show. It may have been one of the Massey lectures.

There was another excellent lecture (by King?) with the major theme that "we are the stories we tell ourselves". Everybody has a view of themselves, part of an internal narrative that defines who or what they are.

You won't be able to change a creationist's mind until you can address the problem that evidence that contradicts that story just won't be accepted because it breaks their core view of who they are.

And it's clear from the Glen's account that creationists as a group work very hard to keep that association strong, coupling it with social shunning and bullying.

Thus xtian scientist like Miller are probably very important in reducing the fundamentalist influence on mainstream xians.

But it may also mean that once a certain point has been reached only massive de-programming can bring a fundamentalist out of the fundamentalist mindset.

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30. Comment #258896 by JFHalsey on October 2, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Janus said:
It's not just that he's smart, it's that I think he really cares about what's true, which is something that is incredibly rare among religious believers.


I think that's actually very close to the heart of the matter; at least if my own personal anecdote has any statistical merit. My personal journey out of christianity coincided with my sister's disillusionment with her church's hierarchy and orthodoxy, and she said she was purposefully "looking for the Truth." I took this as encouragement to share--rather excitedly--the actual facts I had discovered about religion, christianity and, particularly, glaring biblical inaccuracies (since we were raised to believe in a very strict, bible-is-inerrant brand of christianity).

I was told, in no uncertain terms, that she believed satan had gotten a hold of my mind and made me believe all those "lies."

We were both disillusioned with what we had been taught and had seen not to pan out; but whereas I would only accept pure, undeniable facts from that point on, she only actually wanted to find a different version of her religion which made her feel warmer and fuzzier than the last iteration.

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31. Comment #258897 by the great teapot on October 2, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Next week primary schoolboy Bane Trooney explains how he came to terms with how knowing his arse from his elbow pointed to the fact noddy was just a cartoon character

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32. Comment #258902 by Swordmaiden on October 2, 2008 at 1:32 pm

 avatarBut I can understand this way of thinking having thought it myself. My mum died a few months ago and I had to face it without my previous faith which would have had me "know" that she was still around somewhere. Its hard to let go even when you have the facts right in front of your face. You still clutch at those straws. I have to admit, heart of hearts, I still cannot completely dismiss the remote possibility that one day someone will discover evidence for this...This gets me into trouble with people on forums who see me as an easy target but I still have to be honest and say I have a completely open mind about everything. Professor Dawkins has taught me to focus on this life and all the amazing things I share it with regardless of what else there may or not be. Faith burrows deep into a person and is not easily shaken off even in the face of evidence.

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33. Comment #258903 by Paine on October 2, 2008 at 1:33 pm

I know Glenn Morton - he has helped us at the BCSE and I highly respect him.


Based on what? Looking at this article, I see a guy who took TWENTY YEARS to figure out that the earth is more than 6000 years old. And he's supposedly had an education. I dont see anything worthy o respect.

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34. Comment #258913 by SASnSA on October 2, 2008 at 1:48 pm

He seems to be a man hanging off of a cliff by a root. He doesn't want to look down for fear that he may lose his grip and fall.

He's had to face the truth about geology, otherwise he couldn't succeed at his job, but he appears to avoid looking into evolution for fear that he'll lose his grip on Christianity.

If he was raised to be a YEC, he was also probably raised to believe atheism is evil, and that may really scare him like looking into the void below.

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35. Comment #258924 by alabasterocean on October 2, 2008 at 1:58 pm

 avatarAs a former student and lecturer in Rhetorics I was just amazed by Glenn R Morton's story. It's a great example of inter-rhetorical deliberation and might give some of us at the RDF an idea about decorum and the psychological process of view changing. The aim must be to convince, not to sand bag religious people (dam you Hitchens).

This rhetorical situation follow when a individual confronts new evidence that is less or not at all coherent whit a given belief. As in Morton's situation the new evidence just hit's the core of his beliefs structure: sympathy is good here. On the one hand he has view A and on the other view B. B works better but B is not coherent with A. One might say that the flapping piece of skin just turned into a wing! But Morton truly belied that the piece of skin was the one thing that made his existence worth living even if it in the light of the feather covered wing must have seem redundant for quite some time. And now his inter deliberation begins. What is the consequences? -What parts of my world view is wrong? What is the lesson to be taught? He might ask himself. For an atheist (or anti-theist) the choice is simple. Burn the whole belief structure and live like a happy animal ever after. And this seems just to often to be the anticipated reaction. And it is not wholesome or realistic (and we like to be realistic right?).

When changing a persons mind on the grander scale - not the kind of question Google (when they are not censoring)can answer for you or Wikipedia - you need to understand that the process of changing a persons views calls for time and a the understanding of effectiveness. Some smart advice is too start at the edges if the belief structure and work your way in. This is not done in one conversation. Another thing is to find a thesis you agree on and then use that thesis to work further in by coherent and causal deliberation. Well, you can work this out by your self. The point is that Morton gives us an idea about the inter-deliberation of a broken belief structure and We who cares about making sense and getting our way of thinking (or argument) past on might try to empathize whit this.

The portrait of 'the new atheists' is someway correct when described as to aggressive and head on. Understand me correct, it doesn't bother me except when it make some of us look like fools. And the aggressive rhetorical style is far more fun, and easier. The alarming problem is that the aggressive and ruthless style turns our side of the argument into a flapping piece of skin. And we so urgently need a feather coated wing to do what we do. The problem is not in the arguments, that must be self evident, the problem is how we deliver them in many cases. We new to sprinkle some sugar coating on our belief structure when passing it on. That's it. I criticize you, and I surely criticize myself. We need to think of stuff like this. You don't have to be nice, but nicer. It's just smarter and more efficient. And in one way the art of, use for and necessity of deliberation force us to treat it more careful. It's in the heart of democracy and the effectiveness of freedom of speech.

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36. Comment #258927 by Quine on October 2, 2008 at 2:00 pm

 avatarQuick, someone throw that drowning man a preserving copy of The God Delusion.

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37. Comment #258940 by Steven Mading on October 2, 2008 at 2:15 pm

He had to drop creationism because his career dealt directly with the facts that contradict it. As to
the other aspects of religion deal with areas outside his career, he has less incentive to make that brutally difficult step of dropping faith in those areas.

Leaving a faith-based belief behind because the cold hard facts contradict it is a very emotionally difficult thing to do.

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38. Comment #258943 by the great teapot on October 2, 2008 at 2:21 pm

He needs a good slap around the face with a wet fish.

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39. Comment #258945 by Obecalp on October 2, 2008 at 2:24 pm

I find it mind-boggling that this guy readily accepts that God started a world-wide flood but worries about such things as:

"I would see karsts and sinkholes (limestone erosion) which occurred during the middle of the sedimentary column (supposedly during the middle of the flood) yet the flood waters would have been saturated in limestone and incapable of dissolving lime."

D'oh, God did it!?

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40. Comment #258947 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 2:27 pm

 avatarPayne comments "Based on what? Looking at this article, I see a guy who took TWENTY YEARS to figure out that the earth is more than 6000 years old. And he's supposedly had an education. I dont see anything worthy o respect."

Because he looked at the evidence, changed his mind, had the courage to admit that he was wrong and then fight his corner.

And your public track record on such matters is precisely what?

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41. Comment #258951 by the great teapot on October 2, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Paines track record is probably not public because he never had access to the media when he was 13 years old.

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42. Comment #258955 by BicycleRepairMan on October 2, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarI think the word everyone is looking for, is "doublethink". When I read "nineteen eighty-four", this kind of mental state was the first thing on my mind, the willingness to bend, deny and square undeniable fact to comply with the absurd. Sure, young earth creationist do it, but moderate "modern" Christians are almost weirder, because while creationists can often be excused on the basis of ignorance, moderates are actually, like Morton, aware of the crystal clear, undeniable evidence, yet they perform all this mental gymnastic not to loose the old mythology they are brought up to believe in.

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43. Comment #258961 by rod-the-farmer on October 2, 2008 at 2:59 pm

 avatarI have one major feeling, reading these and other stories about how difficult it has been (for some) to shake off the blinders imposed by fundamental religion. I am truly thankful I was not raised into such a situation.

Are there resources to help those who want to explore rational thinking, that a fundie could find easily, and go to - AND which have proven successful ? I know there are multiple sites and/or books. Which ones have a proven track record ?

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44. Comment #258963 by bachfiend on October 2, 2008 at 3:22 pm

Janus (comment #26) says: "Sure. But that a person is a scientist doesn't mean that she cares about the truth. Many scientists see 'science' as a job, not as a way of thinking".
I don't know. I always thought a person went into science because it is interesting, and wants to discover something that will ensure fame, not for something that is later shown to be wrong. I think if a bright person just wants a job and money, then the life of an investment banker on Wall Street would be more promising!

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45. Comment #258969 by Roger Stanyard on October 2, 2008 at 3:32 pm

 avatar"Paines track record is probably not public because he never had access to the media when he was 13 years old."

So? What on earth has that got to do with it.

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46. Comment #258979 by blitz442 on October 2, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Janus (comment #26) says:

I don't know. I always thought a person went into science because it is interesting, and wants to discover something that will ensure fame, not for something that is later shown to be wrong. I think if a bright person just wants a job and money, then the life of an investment banker on Wall Street would be more promising!


Not anymore!

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47. Comment #258980 by a non e-moose on October 2, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Roger, you seem to fail to grasp that indoctrination from a young age can have a powerful effect on ones world view and way of thinking. To overcome this is certainly something worth respecting. Many people never do.

Edit: I've missunderstood. disregard that, and apply it to paine instead.

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48. Comment #258982 by aznxscorpion517 on October 2, 2008 at 4:09 pm

 avatarLOL. Christianity is totally wrong about the age of the earth and the flood......but everything else in it must be right!

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49. Comment #258985 by kaiserkriss on October 2, 2008 at 4:13 pm

 avatarAs an Earth Scientist, I work with fellows such as Glen Morton on a daily basis. It is often extremely frustrating.

What happens is a compartmentalisation of the mind. When the obvious is pointed out, in the majority of cases, the disconnect just does not register. It seems to be a case of comfort and security being more important than rational thought and connecting the dots, and in many cases spousal pressure to ignore the evidence. jcw

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50. Comment #258991 by Goldy on October 2, 2008 at 4:42 pm

 avatarJanus
I don't know. I always thought a person went into science because it is interesting, and wants to discover something that will ensure fame, not for something that is later shown to be wrong. I think if a bright person just wants a job and money, then the life of an investment banker on Wall Street would be more promising!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/3123516/Wall-Street-trader-becomes-a-monk.html

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