1. Comment #260149 by Nails on October 4, 2008 at 6:37 pm

Whilst it is wrong to legislate againt non-believers, isn't this just being a bit silly?

For me, they can have their national prayer day, just don't expect me to join in. I'll be the one stood at the back laughing at ya all.

That said, they have a prayer day every bloody Sunday, Christmas and Easter so what the hell else do they want?

Other Comments by Nails

2. Comment #260153 by WilliamP on October 4, 2008 at 7:02 pm

president's mandated proclamations calling on Americans to pray violates a constitutional ban on government officials endorsing religion.

Of course Bush is going to ask Americans to pray-he has no idea what he's doing and needs all the help he thinks he can get.
I wonder when Operation Finger Cross will begin.

Other Comments by WilliamP

3. Comment #260164 by 8teist on October 4, 2008 at 7:53 pm

Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Task Force,

I guess ,if you can`t get a real job get your imaginary friend to create an imaginary one for you.
Could this prayer day run on the same day as the raving fuckin looney day, perchance?

Other Comments by 8teist

4. Comment #260168 by nother person on October 4, 2008 at 7:56 pm

Nails: while I believe I understand your response and have myself often been the bloke in the back row amused at all the fuss, nevertheless, I don't think this challenge is silly. Yes they can have their prayers every Sunday but that is them doing it, not us doing it, and while I may be free to not participate today, what about 10 years on once this sort of thing becomes institutionalized in my government? There are some things that one can watch develop with distain and aloofness until they self-destruct of their own absurdity. And then there are other things that need to be nipped in the bud. I think this is one of the latter. I don't want it to get a chance to grow and Mr. Bush deserves a rap on the knuckles for instigating it.

Other Comments by nother person

5. Comment #260170 by Ed-words on October 4, 2008 at 7:57 pm

Nails #1 Comment



It is a violation of the US Constitution

for our govt. to endorse religion, which should

include endorsing a nationwide prayer service

organized by a fundamentalist.

Go to FFRF.ORG and punch News Release (Oct 3 ) for their reasons for the suit.

Small fires left unattended become big ones.

Other Comments by Ed-words

6. Comment #260171 by Mayhemm on October 4, 2008 at 8:02 pm

While I personally wouldn't have called for this suit, I am glad they're doing it.

It's in clear violation of the constitution, and I can see where in some parts of the country it could create a hostile environment for those not taking part. "Hey buddy, why aren't you prayin'? You think yur better 'n us or some'in?" (Pardon the weak attempt at a text-based accent)

We can't just shrug it off and say "what's the difference?" because that's what we always do as non-believers! Our "herded cats" attitude is the reason why the religious wingnuts have been able to garner so much pull.

You said it yourself, Nails, they have a prayer day every Sunday, Christmas and Easter. A government-legislated one is unnecessary (and illegal). What's next? National Stone-the-Heretic Day?

**Wow. Started typing as #2, but end up as #6 by the time I post. Sorry if some comments are redundant.**

Other Comments by Mayhemm

7. Comment #260172 by Diacanu on October 4, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Nails-

..what the hell else do they want?

Everything!
Don't you get it by now?
They want the whole ball of wax.
Everything! And then more besides.
That's what all cults want.

Other Comments by Diacanu

8. Comment #260174 by Ed-words on October 4, 2008 at 8:08 pm

Nother Person (Comment #4)


A "slippery slope" isn't necessary here.

Nobody's being forced to pray, but just the

endorsement and planning of such an activity

is wrong, of and by itself.

Other Comments by Ed-words

9. Comment #260175 by 8teist on October 4, 2008 at 8:08 pm

"what the hell else do they want? "



Your soul, Nails ,your immortal soul ,forever and ever...........and once they`ve got you they`ll never let you go..............you are doomed, I say,Doooooomed

Other Comments by 8teist

10. Comment #260176 by dragonfirematrix on October 4, 2008 at 8:10 pm

Prayer and other public displays of religioun should be banned.

It is okay if the religious want to excersise their religion in their own homes under strict privacy, but if the religious push their cults (large and small) upon society in public places, then the religious should be prosecuted.

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

11. Comment #260177 by Nails on October 4, 2008 at 8:11 pm

I understand the conflict with the first ammendment, my point was more along the lines of why do they need a national prayer day?

But yes, to give an inch is to concede a mile.

I guess I'm just not thinking straight today....

Sorry!

Other Comments by Nails

12. Comment #260179 by Enlightenme.. on October 4, 2008 at 8:16 pm

"isn't this just being a bit silly?
For me, they can have..."

The very fact you needed to put 'they' is the problem here.
Do you value your freedom?

Edit; I see you've come to your senses and realised just what's at stake!

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

13. Comment #260180 by jksander on October 4, 2008 at 8:23 pm

Maybe, while we are at it, we can institute "National Sacrifice-a-Goat Day"?

(apologies to Dr. Dan Dennett)

-Joe K.

Other Comments by jksander

14. Comment #260182 by TalkyMeat on October 4, 2008 at 8:28 pm

There's a simple answer to this, the perfect peaceful protest. If this ridiculous law is passed, atheists should celebrate it with public prayer meetings imploring God to rain destruction and misery down on the United States, to bring sickness and death to everyone in the Whitehouse and every politician involved in the National Day of Prayer, to bankrupt American businesses and the American economy (not that that one needs any divine help), to strike America with new, untreatable, deadly pandemics, to bring about the failure of American military efforts and the slaughter of American troops, to afflict America with floods, earthquakes and other deadly natural disasters, and to give everyone in the country a succession of really shitty days. Atheists, of course, can do all this in the cheerful knowledge that they are praying to a non-existent being and they need not worry about any of these prayers coming true as a consequence of having prayed them - but the sorts of imbeciles who instigated this absurd law should be frightened by it, perhaps even enough to think that maybe it wasn't such a great idea after all.

The Day of Prayer is a serious concern, and not just for first amendment reasons - it is also a really transparent, and frankly dangerous, attempt to claim God's endorsement for whatever cretinous and despicable thing the US government tries to do, whether it's another pointless war in the Middle East or ripping up pristine wildernesses in order to buy another decade's worth of Not Doing Shit About Climate Change. It is my strong suspicion that if fewer Americans thought that God was guiding their country, fewer of them would be so comfortable with handing temporal authority to known idiots.

Other Comments by TalkyMeat

15. Comment #260185 by Cartomancer on October 4, 2008 at 8:31 pm

How about World Hang-a-Stockbroker Day? That might actually help...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

16. Comment #260188 by Wosret on October 4, 2008 at 8:47 pm

We need like a "World" something day. That the whole world celebrates. Like "Human Day", "Earthling Day", "Terran Day", "Mitchell Gilks day". Any of those would be good.

Other Comments by Wosret

17. Comment #260191 by Patte Lanus on October 4, 2008 at 9:03 pm

Can we all write our governors in protest? While I understand it does no real good---isn't it prudent to also voice our dismay (disgust is also a very good choice!) to our elected officials--and perhaps a few editors as well! All kidding aside, the more voices heard in the halls of local government the more control we can exercise over own lives, and perhaps even initiate even a small ripple effect.

Other Comments by Patte Lanus

18. Comment #260195 by Enlightenme.. on October 4, 2008 at 9:31 pm

Carto, it was poorly regulated investment bankers this time, not stockbrokers!

And, losing faith(!) in Capitalism right now would seal a miserable fate for some billions of our fellow kind.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

19. Comment #260196 by bachfiend on October 4, 2008 at 9:53 pm

Personally, I'd welcome a National Prayer Day in Australia (provided it was made a public holiday). In Western Australia, we have just had a public holiday for the queen's birthday (which is a bit strange, because she certainly wasn't born on that day, we just needed a public holiday on that day for an agricultural show, which most people seem to ignore anyway).

Other Comments by bachfiend

20. Comment #260199 by 8teist on October 4, 2008 at 10:05 pm

Assassinate a Politician Day, might prove popular.

Other Comments by 8teist

21. Comment #260220 by atp on October 4, 2008 at 11:46 pm

>The day of prayer, held each year on the first Thursday of May, creates a "hostile environment for nonbelievers, who are made to feel as if they are political outsiders," the lawsuit said.

This argument can by used about National day of anything. Because whatever the day is about, there will always be someone who don't support it.

So I think this is a really bad argument.

Other Comments by atp

22. Comment #260225 by bucketchemist on October 5, 2008 at 12:02 am

We need like a "World" something day. That the whole world celebrates. Like "Human Day", "Earthling Day", "Terran Day", "Mitchell Gilks day". Any of those would be good.

Pangea Day? - a bit naff this year but a sound idea grounded in an appropriate metaphor.

Other Comments by bucketchemist

23. Comment #260242 by Styrer- on October 5, 2008 at 1:02 am

In light of the cited rejection by the Supreme Court - a dotty ruling, it seems to me, which decided that 'that the separationists had no legal standing to bring the suit' - and given that Jay Sekulow, Chief Counsel of the ACLJ, revelled in saying "this is a very significant victory that sends a powerful message that atheists and others antagonistic to religion do not get an automatic free pass to bring Establishment Clause lawsuits", it seems even more important to me that every possible legal recourse - as here - be brought to bear on the insidious promotion of religion by Government.

The religious agenda has had it so easy for so long that there is a danger that even we atheists may be inclined to say 'oh, well, leave it alone, we just seem to be coming across as a cantankerous lot of old kill-joys'. At precisely this point it is time to re-double our efforts in sending out the message 'NO! Enough is enough. No more'. I hope this case pans out well.

The above should achieve more consciousness-raising, at the very least.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

24. Comment #260247 by Steven Mading on October 5, 2008 at 1:59 am

Even though I donate money to the FFRF (Hey, they're right here in my city, why not) Dan and Annie keep doing things like this and I think it's a very bad strategy. They say it's not that taxing on the funds of the group because the lawsuits don't generally cost much and the lawyers they get usually do the work pro-bono for FFRF. But what they're spending, more importantly than money, is public gravitas. They become famously known for things like this and the lawsuits about "In God We Trust" on the money, and having manger scenes at Christmas in government buildings, and that ends up drowning out the really BIG things they do. People notice this little trivial stuff and laugh off the FFRF as a bunch of kooks, and end up not noticing the bigger more important things they do. (For example, the lawsuit against the office of faith-based initiatives and the lawsuit against the practice in the US military of ranking officers ordering underlings to attend religious ceremonies.)

They take on big, important issues. But they also take on trivial issues and people notice those more.

I'm not saying they're wrong in this (they are right that this practice is a violation), but that they'd get better press if they limited themselves to only the bigger issues. They're spending their limited gravitas on the lesser things.

Other Comments by Steven Mading

25. Comment #260249 by ridelo on October 5, 2008 at 2:12 am

How long before the Americans are on their knees in the streets four times a day?

Other Comments by ridelo

26. Comment #260252 by rod-the-farmer on October 5, 2008 at 2:37 am

Re Comment #24 by Steven Mading
Please provide examples of "bigger issues". I would be interested to read your thoughts on this.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

27. Comment #260253 by Sargeist on October 5, 2008 at 2:41 am

ridelo,

How long before the Americans are on their knees in the streets four times a day?

Can we start with Angelina Jolie? I just need a few minutes to buy a plane ticket...

Other Comments by Sargeist

28. Comment #260255 by Koreman on October 5, 2008 at 3:04 am

Praying does work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQUR2tvuQhI

Other Comments by Koreman

29. Comment #260257 by MRA on October 5, 2008 at 3:12 am

I support the lawsuit - in the US they have the separation of Church and State (wish we had that here in the UK), and that should be respected. Laws are worthless unless enforced. If the people bringing this action don't try and enforce the law then who will? Also, lawsuits make the news, especially if you sue the President of the US!

As far a national day, I would propose "National Rational Day" - sounds good.

Other Comments by MRA

30. Comment #260261 by Animavore on October 5, 2008 at 3:29 am

Atheists rallying? Em... I renounce my atheism (not that that's possible in the technical sense but... you know what I mean. I hope).

Other Comments by Animavore

31. Comment #260262 by davem on October 5, 2008 at 3:30 am

Rather than fight the day of prayer, how about turning it around, and encouraging it? The only caveat is that everyone has to pray for a particular miracle. (no praying for something that might well happen, anyway, such as gas prices to go down). Then, if the prayer is answered, you get to keep the holiday, if not, you admit failure, and replace it with a 'Freedom from prayer day'. We could start with praying for amputees to regrow their limbs. For too long now, we haven't had enough people praying for amputees. This is just the opportunity we've been waiting for! After a few years, we can see just how effective it's been...

Other Comments by davem

32. Comment #260267 by Christopher Davis on October 5, 2008 at 3:52 am

I agree with Steven Mading...if he hadn't wrote what he did, I was going to write something very similar.

Rod, you asked what Steven thought were "bigger issues", well I can't speak for Steven, but right now, for me, the number one issue is keeping ID/Creationism out of schools. Following that it would be allowing stem cell research to go forward. Then there is the conservation of our natural resources and protection of our environment (something fundies could give two shits about because God created the earth and everything on it for their consumption). Throw in Roe v. Wade, abstinence only programs, and the heavy emphasis on religion in the military (a specific pain in my ass)...and yes, I can honestly say I see National Prayer Day as an issue of minor significance.

Furthermore, I'm not even sure that it violates the Constitution. I don't have a copy on hand, but I'm pretty sure that what the Constituion prohibits is the establishment of a state religion...that is, the sanctioning of a specific religion as the official religion of the United States. In my opinion, National Prayer Day infringes on the seperation of church and state far less than Christmas or Easter, both of which are federal holidays and specifically Christian.

Now granted, I'm not in favor of this National "pay homage to your delusion" day, but I honestly think it is at best a waste of energy and resources to get worked up about it, and at worst counterproductive to the battle against "bigger issues".

I guess I can sum up my position with an old piece of folk wisdom..."Sometimes you have to pick your battles."

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

33. Comment #260268 by Ulixes Lactanis on October 5, 2008 at 4:02 am

A better argument would be that the federal law discriminates against Christians who are discouraged, by Jesus Himself to pray in public. A relevant, even better argument, would be that the federal law makes Jesus unhappy.

In his own words (Matthew 6:5-8):

"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him."

Of course the Christian Ayatollahs didn't know that, because they never read the Bible. Or anything else.

Other Comments by Ulixes Lactanis

34. Comment #260273 by MRA on October 5, 2008 at 4:16 am

To Christopher Davis - which battles would you pick?

If Bush introduces National Prayer Day, and that sticks, what is next?

It seems to me that this is a first step towards bringing religion into the machinery of government in the USA. I can imagine state schools all over the USA suggesting children pray on National Prayer Day or that government offices and Courts allocate time for prayer on National Prayer Day.

Here in the UK (apologies if you are from the UK and know this), religious organisations have way too much influence (Bishops in the House of Lords, faith Schools, a monarch/head of state who is 'defender of the faith', ecclesiastical law etc. etc.). One of the reasons why I admire the USA is because they have the constitutional separation. While it might or might not be a breach of the constitution, I feel that it is important that these public interest cases are brought and it is very rare for individuals alone to bring such cases.

Other Comments by MRA

35. Comment #260275 by Christopher Davis on October 5, 2008 at 4:23 am

MRA, did you read my entire post? I gave six examples.

Also, just because a National Day of Prayer is recognized, it doesn't logically follow that children will be forced to pray during school.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

36. Comment #260276 by MRA on October 5, 2008 at 4:30 am

Sure - I should have been clearer - what kind of action would you propose?

On your second point - is does not logically lead to schools having prayer sessions, but it makes it much easier for a religious teacher to have a prayer session if he/she felt like it - who could object to a prayer session on National Prayer Day. No doubt, many teachers would take the opportunity.

Other Comments by MRA

37. Comment #260287 by LaurieB on October 5, 2008 at 6:14 am

Does G. Bush assume that on National Prayer Day all of the prayers produced would be Christian prayers? We have citizens representing every religion under the sun in this place. Will the muslim students set up their prayer rugs in the school hallways periodically throughout the day? Ii'm not sure what the Hindu and Buddhists will require. Are businesses prepared to halt meetings and conference calls when the muezzin calls out?

"Pick your battles" is a good idea when dealing with family and neighbors, but a bad idea when dealing with national policy issues. Better to consistently push back at the first sign of encroachment, otherwise it's going to be,"death by a thousand paper cuts".

Other Comments by LaurieB

38. Comment #260288 by GBile on October 5, 2008 at 6:27 am

I wonder when Operation Finger Cross will begin.
WilliamP

Well, it seems your prayer has been answered.


A national 'prayer day'. Maybe it should be held on 'Friday the 13th'.

Well, maybe not.

Other Comments by GBile

39. Comment #260315 by Philster61 on October 5, 2008 at 8:19 am

Shirley Dobson, chairwoman of the National Day of Prayer Task Force,

"Shirley you cant be serious?"
"I am serious,and dont call me Shirley

Other Comments by Philster61

40. Comment #260318 by debaser71 on October 5, 2008 at 8:28 am

Silly?!@?!

It's about the law and raising conciouness...something those here ought to be familiar with...including R.D. himself.

And as Pat Condell has so rightly said, (and I will paraphrase but still use quotes) "I prefer to fight for my freedoms while I still have them."

Other Comments by debaser71

41. Comment #260325 by Ed-words on October 5, 2008 at 9:15 am

Steven Mading (comment #24)


I, too, belong to FFRF. I don't have a problem
with their fighting the small (NOT trivial) battles along with the larger ones.

These aren't small battles to the Religious Right. They fight for every inch of terrain.

Kooks? People in (stained) glass houses
shouldn't throw stones.

Other Comments by Ed-words

42. Comment #260327 by mordacious1 on October 5, 2008 at 9:20 am

Some people might consider 'where you sit on a bus' a very minor problem compared with some of the greater issues that blacks faced in the U.S. But the civil rights movement chose Rosa Parks' not giving up her seat as a focus point of their fight. Sometimes small issues that everyone deals with on a daily basis are more powerful than bigger issues that are more abstract.

Other Comments by mordacious1

43. Comment #260348 by Steven Mading on October 5, 2008 at 10:58 am

Re: Comment 26 By Rod-The-Farmer:

Re Comment #24 by Steven Mading
Please provide examples of "bigger issues". I would be interested to read your thoughts on this.

Are you aware of what the phrase "for example" meant in the following part of my post?

myself, from the post you were responding to.
(For example, the lawsuit against the office of faith-based initiatives and the lawsuit against the practice in the US military of ranking officers ordering underlings to attend religious ceremonies.)

Other Comments by Steven Mading

44. Comment #260349 by ManOfReason on October 5, 2008 at 11:04 am

A NATIONAL day of PRAYER seems to me a direct affront to the wall that Thomas Jefferson and so many others built between church and state. It is government endorsing religion, thus further interweaving god and country, putting this nation on the fast track to theocracy. This can only propagate the notion that belief in a god, any god, is somehow patriotic. A notion that some constitutional scholars would refer to as "complete bullshit".

If there is a "National Day of Prayer", who will lead this prayer? The president? The pope? Certainly not a cleric of a rabbi! Without saying it, what this equates to is a national day of CHRISTIAN prayer. Quite frankly, I just won't have it in my country. I will write to my state Governor, to my representatives in Congress, and to my friends and urge them to do the same. I encourage all of you in the States to do the same. Even if it does nothing to change the outcome, at least you made your voice heard.

Other Comments by ManOfReason

45. Comment #260351 by WilliamP on October 5, 2008 at 11:09 am

Comment 38 by GBile:

Well, it seems your prayer has been answered.

Mission accomplished.

Other Comments by WilliamP

46. Comment #260352 by Steven Mading on October 5, 2008 at 11:12 am

Don't forget that the UK has far more of this sort of trivial religious stuff in government and yet ended up being LESS full of believers. Also, don't forget that these types of holidays are a dime a dozen here in the states. Every day of the year is a national day of somethingorother. That's why I don't consider this anything more that trivial. I'm far more concerned with the things where people are being *required* to participate and the government's legal power is being used to enforce participation. (Such as sending my tax money to churches, or marrying the armed forces to religion, or religion dictating which medical practices are legal, or religion banning all funding of embryonic stem-cell research.) The national day of prayer has absolutely no teeth - no enforcement at all. If it did, then I'd be protesting it too.

Other Comments by Steven Mading

47. Comment #260353 by ManOfReason on October 5, 2008 at 11:13 am

i should also add, why don't we just have "National Wish on a Star Day"? Or how about "National Imaginary Friend Day"? Or maybe even "National Hope for the Best Day?

Other Comments by ManOfReason

48. Comment #260356 by thrutraffic on October 5, 2008 at 11:29 am

FFRF should just sue for a Day of Disbelief as a method of non-discrimination.

Other Comments by thrutraffic

49. Comment #260360 by mordacious1 on October 5, 2008 at 11:40 am

thrutraffic

Nope. The government should stay out of it either way.

Other Comments by mordacious1

50. Comment #260405 by SASnSA on October 5, 2008 at 1:10 pm

If they're "good christians", they pray every day anyway (if they're "good muslims" its 5 times a day). The only reason I can see that they would need a National Prayer Day, is as a wedge to bring prayer into schools and government at least once a year despite separation of church and state.

But FFRF would probably be better off waiting for more liberal judges to be placed into the SC before initiating this suit.

Other Comments by SASnSA