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Sunday, November 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Educated Catholics have sown dissent and confusion in the Church, claims bishop

by Telegraph

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/3464073/Educated-Catholics-have-sown-dissent-and-confusion-in-the-Church-claims-bishop.html

University-educated Catholics are to blame for the crisis in the Church and the growth of secularism, according to the bishop charged with tackling the decline in Mass attendance.

By Jonathan Wynne-Jones, Religious Affairs Correspondent
Last Updated: 9:27AM GMT 16 Nov 2008

The Rt Rev Patrick O'Donoghue, the Bishop of Lancaster, has claimed that graduates are spreading scepticism and sowing dissent. Instead of following the Church's teaching they are "hedonistic", "selfish" and "egocentric", he said.

In particular, the bishop complained that influential Catholics in politics and the media were undermining the Church.

While not naming names, he suggested that such people had been compromised by their education, which he said had a "dark side, due to original sin".

Prominent Catholics in public life include Mark Thompson, the BBC's director general, and Tony Blair, the former Prime Minister.

Bishop O'Donoghue, who has recently published a report on how to renew Catholicism in Britain, argued that mass education has led to "sickness in the Church and wider society".

"What we have witnessed in Western societies since the end of the Second World War is the development of mass education on a scale unprecedented in human history - resulting in economic growth, scientific and technological advances, and the cultural and social enrichment of billions of people's lives," he said.

"However, every human endeavor has a dark side, due to original sin and concupiscence. In the case of education, we can see its distortion through the widespread dissemination of radical scepticism, positivism, utilitarianism and relativism.

"Taken together, these intellectual trends have resulted in a fragmented society that marginalizes God, with many people mistakenly thinking they can live happy and productive lives without him.

"It shouldn't surprise us that the shadows cast by the distortion of education, and corresponding societal changes, have also touched members of the Church. As Pope Benedict XVI puts it, even in the Church we find hedonism, selfishness and egocentric behavior."

The bishop said that Catholic graduates had rejected the reforms made in the second council of the Vatican, which introduced fundamental changes in issues such as liturgy and doctrine.

"The Second Vatican Council tends to be misinterpreted most by Catholics who have had a university education -- that is, by those most exposed to the intellectual and moral spirit of the age," he said. "These well-educated Catholics have gone on to occupy influential positions in education, the media, politics, and even the Church, where they have been able to spread their so-called loyal dissent, causing confusion and discord in the whole church."

Mr Thompson, who went to Oxford University, has this month been embroiled in a row over broadcasting standards in the wake of the scandal over offensive telephone messages left by Jonathan Ross and Russell Brand. Under his command the BBC broadcast Jerry Springer The Opera, considered blasphemous by many Christians, and was forced to pull a cartoon called Popetown set in a fictional Vatican over concerns it would cause offence.

Mr Blair, also Oxford-educated, became a Catholic last year but has received Mass for years. As Prime Minister he oversaw the introduction of laws on gay rights and abortion which the Catholic church opposed.

The bishop said that influential Catholics had set a bad example and corrupted the faith of those who had not gone to university.

"This failure of leadership has exacerbated the even-greater problem of the mass departure from the Church of the working-class and poor," he said. "For example, the relentless diatribe in the popular media against Christianity has undermined the confidence of the ordinary faithful in the Church."

Although the influx of immigrants from Catholic countries in Eastern Europe has buoyed Mass attendance in recent years, there has been a significant decline in the number of indigenous, working-class Catholics.

Attendance at Mass in 1991 was recorded as 1.3 million, representing a drop of 40 per cent since 1963, but it fell further to 960,000 in 2004. The number of priests in England and Wales has slumped by nearly a quarter in 20 years, from 4,545 in 1985 to 3,643 in 2005.

Bishop O'Donoghue has produced a report, Fit for Mission? Church, examining the current problems facing the Church and designed "to enable Catholic men, women and children to resist the pressures to compromise, even abandon, the truths of the Catholic faith".

He says that he supports Catholics receiving a university education, but urges they should be "better-equipped to challenge the erroneous thinking of their contemporaries".

Nicholas Lash, the former Norris-Hulse Professor of Divinity at Cambridge University, called the bishop's comments "extremely grave".

Writing in this week's Tablet - a respected Catholic journal - Prof Lash says: "If he had named a particular university or universities, or particular individuals, he might well have had a series of libel actions on his hands.

"Quite what constructive purpose could possibly be served by such irresponsible and wholesale scapegoating of the educated, I have simply no idea."

Comments 1 - 50 of 169 |

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1. Comment #285232 by wiz220 on November 16, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Congrats to the UK! You now have "anti-intellectualism" being preached over there too! And here I thought it was unique to the U.S.

Someone needs to tell this nutter that the ship has sailed, he'll need to get used to the fact that talk like this will only marginalize himself and his organization further.

Other Comments by wiz220

2. Comment #285233 by Cartomancer on November 16, 2008 at 9:37 pm

 avatarI haven't laughed so much in ages. Finally, someone on the other side realises that modern education is corrosive to religion. Long may the cloisters of academe continue to empty the cloisters of the faithful.

But he really does pick on universities unnecessarily. It barely takes GCSE-level education to realise what bunkum religion is.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

3. Comment #285234 by SimplyIrresponsible on November 16, 2008 at 9:38 pm

 avatarWell, I think this sums it up ... and straight from the horse's mouth as it were. The Church doesn't want educated people.

Other Comments by SimplyIrresponsible

4. Comment #285236 by Cartomancer on November 16, 2008 at 9:43 pm

 avatarThough it does strike me as spectacularly arrogant that someone who never went to university and spent his entire education in seminaries presumes to call himself a moral authority over and above those who have actually devoted their time to serious academic study of relevant disciplines.

He might also be acutely embarrassed to learn that his beloved Pope Ratpoison was himself a university professor at Munster, Tubingen and Regensburg from 1951-1977. Then again, he appears to be acutely embarassed to learn anything.

Other Comments by Cartomancer

5. Comment #285237 by lastgreekstanding on November 16, 2008 at 9:49 pm

Well, I think this sums it up ... and straight from the horse's mouth as it were. The Church doesn't want educated people.


Perhaps that explains the addition of Tony Blair to the fold.

Other Comments by lastgreekstanding

6. Comment #285238 by eean on November 16, 2008 at 10:04 pm

 avatarThis guy needs to watch http://richarddawkins.net/article,3342,Hitchens-v-Albacete---Excerpts,AlecsDeLarge-Christopher-Hitchens and perhaps realize some of their own priests aren't necessarily towing the party line. :D

Other Comments by eean

7. Comment #285239 by black wolf on November 16, 2008 at 10:19 pm

 avatarWhat a pathetic whiner. He's losing, his dogma has been losing for ages, and he's shit-scared to admit it.

oh, and by the way, it's 'toeing the line', not towing.

Other Comments by black wolf

8. Comment #285240 by Adam Morrison on November 16, 2008 at 10:34 pm

 avatarUmmm.... the 'educated' people are 'egocentric'.

One would think that believing that the creator of the universe has a special interest in your life, in one individual among the infinite number of lifeforms in the universe, is the height of egocentrism.

But maybe it's just me...

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

9. Comment #285241 by gyokusai on November 16, 2008 at 10:45 pm

 avatarThis is from The Onion, right?

^_^J.

Other Comments by gyokusai

10. Comment #285242 by epeeist on November 16, 2008 at 10:47 pm

 avatarComment #285239 by black wolf
oh, and by the way, it's 'toeing the line', not towing.
Well yes it is, but it did make me wonder where he was towing it to.

Other Comments by epeeist

11. Comment #285243 by ADParker on November 16, 2008 at 10:53 pm

 avatarAh, I just love it when the Faith-heads unwittingly make our argument for us.

Other Comments by ADParker

12. Comment #285244 by Layla Nasreddin on November 16, 2008 at 11:02 pm

 avatar...I suppose there needs to be a crack here somewhere about how Catholics who are truly "educated" demonstrate this by leaving the Church altogether? ;-) Though I'm not quite sure how to word that...

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

13. Comment #285245 by GarrickW on November 16, 2008 at 11:09 pm

Sickening, really. I've always wondered whether the reason "Anti-Catholicism" is actually a thing people are accused of is that Catholics have a higher total sum of numbers and nuttiness. At least he admits that education makes people less inclined to believe in his god.

Other Comments by GarrickW

14. Comment #285247 by aquilacane on November 16, 2008 at 11:25 pm

 avatarholy fuck

Other Comments by aquilacane

15. Comment #285248 by black wolf on November 16, 2008 at 11:29 pm

 avatarIf that was my dogma and my religion, providing me with a fat wallet, a house and a housekeeper, with no other work to do but publicly announce the newest platitudes and no-sequiturs I've thought up, and writing essays that consist of assemblies of fragments of other people's work - I'd excommunicate anyone with an academic education before the whole nice scheme goes down the drain. Except for those academics who are content with playing along.

Other Comments by black wolf

16. Comment #285249 by aquilacane on November 16, 2008 at 11:30 pm

 avatarBasically, the more people learn the harder it is to lie to them. Is this guy an idiot, or does he honestly think we all are?

Other Comments by aquilacane

17. Comment #285250 by WilliamP on November 16, 2008 at 11:34 pm

To be a member of the Catholic Church one must believe that:
1. Humans can give birth without having sex.
2. A dead person can come back life.
3. Bread and wine can turn into the body and blood of a man who died nearly 2000 years ago.
4. There is both only one god, and at the same time, three.
5. Snakes can talk.

Are they really surprised that they their educated members are giving them trouble' Then again, anyone dumb enough to believe this crap might be.

Other Comments by WilliamP

18. Comment #285251 by Szkeptik on November 16, 2008 at 11:35 pm

Uh, right...
It doesn't get any more stupid than this.

Other Comments by Szkeptik

19. Comment #285252 by aquilacane on November 16, 2008 at 11:35 pm

 avatarHow can you tell if a Catholic is educated?

They're an atheist!

Joke courtesy of Bishop O'Donoghue

Other Comments by aquilacane

20. Comment #285253 by black wolf on November 16, 2008 at 11:36 pm

 avataraquilacane,
I think he's actually neither. He's a bridge-burner. The issues itch and bother him, so he's decided to go all-in, throw the papers in the air and open a window. This is the moment when he ponders whether to jump or do something really crazy. Let's watch and wait. Popcorn, anyone?

Other Comments by black wolf

21. Comment #285254 by Boukeb on November 16, 2008 at 11:38 pm

Taken together, these intellectual trends have resulted in a fragmented society that marginalizes God, with many people mistakenly thinking they can live happy and productive lives without him.


So I am living my life happily without the notion of a god (even the more happier to be as far away from religion as I can) but I am mistaken'

This sort of crazy talk should be treated as Hitchens once said, not by debating but simply repeating it.

Other Comments by Boukeb

22. Comment #285255 by astronomer24 on November 16, 2008 at 11:48 pm

gyokusai,

This sure sounds like an article the Onion would put out which makes is all the more comical that it is a real article.

Other Comments by astronomer24

23. Comment #285256 by Laurie Fraser on November 16, 2008 at 11:53 pm

 avatarComment #285244 by Layla Nasreddin

I'd put it this way, Layla: "Catholics who are truly educated demonstrate this by leaving the church altogether." Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

24. Comment #285257 by j s bach on November 17, 2008 at 12:07 am

 avatarAnd if Prince Charles ever ascends the throne - the law may change and permit the monarch to marry a Roman Catholic - which could in time lead to a Roman Catholic as the king or queen. That will enhance the power of nutters like this bishop no end. Zeus help us.

Other Comments by j s bach

25. Comment #285258 by Evilcor on November 17, 2008 at 12:08 am

 avatarYou want "happy and productive"? Try meth; you'll save in the long run, I promise.

Other Comments by Evilcor

26. Comment #285259 by Laurie Fraser on November 17, 2008 at 12:12 am

 avatarBut how does this stack up as idiocy at its finest:

"However, every human endeavor has a dark side, due to original sin and concupiscence. In the case of education, we can see its distortion through the widespread dissemination of radical scepticism, positivism, utilitarianism and relativism."

So, on this logic we have lust responsible for, say, scepticism. No wonder the educated are leaving in droves.

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

27. Comment #285260 by Evilcor on November 17, 2008 at 12:20 am

 avatarNobody knows lust like a Utilitarian.
Jeremy Bentham was hung like a moose!

And BTW, I've about had it with this Lefty McStrawman caricature of "relativism". If any of you have ever actually SEEN an actual relativist, drop a line and let someone know.

Frankly I think superior cultures like ours could do with a bit of the dread relativism. . . might get a bit harder to bomb the next wogs.

Other Comments by Evilcor

28. Comment #285261 by AllanW on November 17, 2008 at 12:26 am

 avatarI love it; more proof that clerics are desparate. A number of people have summarised the more risible parts of this article but the net result is to confirm what I've always thought; education rots religion.

As for 'toeing the line', I'm sure we all remember that this phrase is supposed to come from the discipline in British Naval vessels of mustering to divisions. The officer in charge of a division of crew on the ship presented his men for inspection by the Captain by getting them to form a line by pointing to one of the grooves on the planked deck.

Other Comments by AllanW

29. Comment #285262 by geckoman on November 17, 2008 at 12:32 am

I'm sure the Bish is correct and I'm glad he is.

The flipside to the decline in belief among the educated is to some extent the growth in belief among the uneducated. Here in Swaziland Christianity is absolutely thriving and it pervades every aspect of life. It is no coincidence that missionaries continue to flock here-not that they are needed, but at least they are not the laughing stocks they are in the developed world. The elites in countries like this deliberately promote religion while simultaenously under-investing in education as a means to hold onto their positions of privilege while keeping the populace subdued. For example, the King is portrayed as chosen by God, so to oppose him and his puppet Government is nealtly equated with sin. The 'helpful' missionaries probably don't realise that to quite a degree they are perpetuating inequality.

Other Comments by geckoman

30. Comment #285263 by dochmbi on November 17, 2008 at 12:33 am

 avatar"Do you find it risible?"

Other Comments by dochmbi

31. Comment #285264 by sunbeamforjesus on November 17, 2008 at 12:37 am

I love it.'Out of the mouths of babes and fuckwits.'
So in plain english he says that it is all wrong these people are being EDUCATED!Why,before you know it they will all be able to read and think for themselves!Where will that leave us estimable clergy?
At the job centre hopefully!

Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus

32. Comment #285265 by Katana on November 17, 2008 at 12:38 am

 avatarOh yeah, blame the education, a factor for some people no doubt but never mind the widespread cases of paedophile priests putting people off in droves.
This guy has basically confirmed what most religious leaders want even if they don't say, uneducated morons they can mould to serve the lord our god.
If ignorance is bliss then wipe the smile off my face.

Although he does state something that all fundies can't grasp, you can live a perfectly happy and productive life without the need for god worship or organised religion, the majority of britain does every day.

I just hope this guys rant puts more people off the church or makes religious apologists think twice about defending it so readily.

Other Comments by Katana

33. Comment #285267 by jonjermey on November 17, 2008 at 12:42 am

Well, the Pope has said that you don't need an active brain to be a living Catholic:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/death-definition-uncertain-pope/2008/11/08/1225561197487.html

Other Comments by jonjermey

34. Comment #285268 by Goldy on November 17, 2008 at 12:44 am

 avatarI'd love to be able to write something to express my feelings to this but I am afraid words fail me. Better indeed to remain uneducated lest the truth be found out for the sham it is. But then, over the Atlantic, we find the militantly ignorant, so I guess this prize ecclessiastical pillock can find solace...

Other Comments by Goldy

35. Comment #285269 by sunbeamforjesus on November 17, 2008 at 12:45 am

In reply to geckoman #285262:
they realise exactly what they are doing.The major monarchies of the world, and the all powerful monarchy of popeism has always acclaimed the connection of 'god given kingship' to give the godly seal of office to any regent that will protect the church and it's privileges.
Even the stuttering clown who is supposed to be our next king is showing his hand by declaring he wants his title to include 'defender of the faith.'The fundie nutjobs in the U.S. are trying to establish the same connection for the office of president by joining church and state.It was ever thus.

Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus

36. Comment #285270 by Quetzalcoatl on November 17, 2008 at 12:45 am

 avatarHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

You're too smart! You've learned too much and now it threatens our church! Please stop learning, stay ignorant so the church can survive!

Laugh. Out. Loud.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

37. Comment #285272 by Logicel on November 17, 2008 at 12:57 am

 avatarPoor bish, you are in such a pickle: you want your sheep to be educated enough so they can get decent jobs so they can be tithed, and at the same time you need them to be sufficiently uneducated so they won't see what a stark raving lunatic you are and the complete rubbishy twaddle that you peddle.

How galling it must be for you to see money-earning folks who are educated enough to keep their money for themselves and loved ones, even using some of that money to educate even further their children and to enjoy life? So much money and not a coin to be had. So sad. You may have to get a real job.

Other Comments by Logicel

38. Comment #285276 by Pertwee's Bouffant on November 17, 2008 at 1:03 am

 avatar
Comment #285243 by ADParker

Ah, I just love it when the Faith-heads unwittingly make our argument for us.


Quite. You beat me to it!

Other Comments by Pertwee's Bouffant

39. Comment #285277 by Verylee on November 17, 2008 at 1:10 am

 avatarJohn 8:32

Other Comments by Verylee

40. Comment #285278 by gazzaofbath on November 17, 2008 at 1:12 am

 avatarThis bishop is absolutely right - a little education (let alone a full university one) and it's almost certain you're not going to fall for the whole Catholic dogma.

Take it from one who was raised a catholic - it is a wonderful fantasy worldview - all that incense, colourful robes, icons, mother goddess worship. It really is a modern day 'pagan' religion.

Once you've been "exposed to the intellectual and moral spirit of the age" then it does seem rather ridiculous. No-one with any half decent education can believe in the text book of dogma (Catechism)- it's no wonder that educated catholics adapt it to what they can live with.

Other Comments by gazzaofbath

41. Comment #285280 by phil rimmer on November 17, 2008 at 1:15 am

 avatarLadies and gentlemen, our way forward is crystal clear.

Education, and lots of it.


I wonder if the dismal Bishop considered if the naked political agenda of his church was itself one of the key factors in its decline. My impression is that our increasingly educated and informed population is becoming MORE engaged in matters of morality not less.

If people are becoming more selfish and egocentric, it is more that they have the temerity to trust their own feelings rather than have manipulative bollocks foisted upon them by self-serving shamans.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

42. Comment #285284 by Quetzalcoatl on November 17, 2008 at 1:24 am

 avatarPhil Rimmer-

I wonder if the dismal Bishop considered if the naked political agenda of his church was itself one of the key factors in its decline.


Of course not. It's Satan's fault.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

43. Comment #285287 by Sonic on November 17, 2008 at 1:29 am

 avatarI'm sorry, all the really good photos from this party were removed from badjocks.com about a month after they were posted 4/14/2006. But the few remaining photos give you some idea -
http://religiousfreaks.com/2006/05/18/catholic-university-girls-gone-wild/

Yes, education is the way to go.

Other Comments by Sonic

44. Comment #285290 by Verylee on November 17, 2008 at 1:32 am

 avatarNext he will be decrying the fact that contraception helps prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancies.

Other Comments by Verylee

45. Comment #285291 by AForce1 on November 17, 2008 at 1:34 am

The Rt Rev is right, education often leads to loical & rational analysis of religion which in itself often leads to "WTF have you people stufing down my throat since I was born" ie enlightenment.

I conclude that the Rt Ret's sub-text is:
keep people uninformed, misinformed & conformed. Hey presto! the new holy trinity

Other Comments by AForce1

46. Comment #285293 by phil rimmer on November 17, 2008 at 1:40 am

 avatarComment #285284 by Quetzalcoatl

It's Satan's fault.


And logically thats the only route for them to take now, a full crash reverse into hellfire and brimstone fundamentalism. Whip those sinners into line with a good dose of fear.

But even that won't work like it used to thanks to TV and Hollywood. We eat popcorn whilst contemplating that kind of stuff now. (I was deeply upset for Satan, how Saddam Hussein treated him in South Park.)

Other Comments by phil rimmer

47. Comment #285294 by Quetzalcoatl on November 17, 2008 at 1:42 am

 avatarSatan's not so bad, once you get to know him.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

48. Comment #285296 by Verylee on November 17, 2008 at 1:47 am

 avatarComment by Quetzalcoat

Satan's not so bad, once you get to know him.


He seems quite a jolly, generous fellow...with all his elves and reindeer!
Ho Ho Ho!

Other Comments by Verylee

49. Comment #285297 by Quetzalcoatl on November 17, 2008 at 1:48 am

 avatarVerylee-

That was painful.

*Lobs lump of coal at Verylee*

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

50. Comment #285298 by brainsys on November 17, 2008 at 1:49 am

Errrm - notice that there are many catholic primary & secondary schools in the UK but no catholic universities (at least 'proper' ones). It is precisely where they totally lose control over brainwash^H^H^H education.

An arguement for liberating all schools for the independent search for truth ... as much as more higher education methinks.

Other Comments by brainsys
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