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Print
Teachers 'beat and abuse' Muslim children in British Koran classes
by Richard Kerbaj, Times Online
Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5315021.ece
Muslim children are being beaten and abused regularly by teachers at some British madrassas - Islamic evening classes - an investigation by The Times has found.
Students have been slapped, punched and had their ears twisted, according to an unpublished report by an imam based on interviews with victims in the north of England. One was “picked up by one leg and spun around” while another said a madrassa teacher was “kicking in my head - like a football”, says the report which was compiled by Irfan Chishti, a former government adviser on Islamic affairs.
Almost 1,600 madrassas operate in Britain, teaching Arabic and the Koran on weekday evenings to about 200,000 children aged from four to their mid-teens.
While there is no hard evidence to indicate how many are involved in the physical abuse of children, The Times has uncovered a disturbing pattern in one town - Rochdale - through interviews with mainstream school teachers, Muslim parents and the children themselves.
One woman told The Times that her niece Hiba, 7, was slapped across the face so hard by her madrassa teacher that her ear was cut. It later became inflamed and she had to have emergency medical treatment.
When the teacher refused to apologise, Hiba's aunt, Jamila, insisted that her niece should be moved to another madrassa. “I have absolutely no respect for religious teachers who behave like this,” she said.
Another girl described how, at the age of 12, she was hit by her madrassa teacher whenever she mispronounced a word or forgot a verse of the Koran.
When Imam Chishti, a religious education teacher who also runs the Light of Islam Academy in Rochdale, decided to carry out his own investigation into the problem he was shocked by how even the victims had grown to accept the abuse. “They all joked about it,” he said. “There's a culture that accepts it.”
Imam Chishti said that part of the problem was that some madrassa teachers were ignorant of British law. Corporal punishment was banned in state schools in 1986 and in all schools in 1998. Under current law teachers acting in loco parentis may use only “reasonable punishment” such as a smack, providing it does not cause any marks or bruising.
But the abuse discovered by The Times investigation goes far beyond what could be termed “reasonable force”. One particularly brutal form of punishment practised in some madrassas is known as the Hen, in which the victim is forced to hold his ears while squatting with his arms fed through his legs.
The magnitude of the problem in Rochdale has led primary school head teachers to break the silence surrounding the problem. Several disclosed that they had asked social services to investigate complaints of physical abuse in madrassas made by pupils but that the victims' parents refused to press charges against the perpetrators either because they felt that physical abuse was normal practice or they feared being ostracised by their community.
Tina Wheatley, deputy head of Heybrook Primary School, said: “If a child comes in with an injury of any sort and it's non-accidental, then schools will refer it to parents, then also to child protection.”
But she said that social workers were often faced by parents who refused to take action against the abusers. “When child protection turns up at the parents' [home], parents don't want to take it any further. There are a lot of head teachers in this area who have spoken to the authorities. It's so sensitive,” she said.
Sandra Hartley, head teacher at Brimrod County Primary School in Rochdale, where 93 per cent of pupils are Muslim, said that she feared that some Muslim parents regarded physical beatings as normal because they had been subjected to the same treatment when they were children.
“You know, it's very much accepted that children are experiencing that type of coercion, unfair treatment and sometimes physical abuse,” she said. “Parents knowing that this is happening and not wanting to move their child from that type of extra-curricular activity is very much the pattern that we have here.”
The Times has also learnt that Rochdale police and social services have met local Muslim leaders six times this year to discuss child protection issues after investigations prompted by claims of physical abuse at madrassas.
Terry Piggott, the executive director of Rochdale Borough Council, admitted that it was difficult for the authorities to take action.
“Because of the rapid turnover of volunteer teachers at madrassas - and the fact that many are part-time - it makes it difficult to regulate and monitor the people who are working with local young people,” he said in a statement.
The problem is not confined to Rochdale. Ann Cryer, Labour MP for the Yorkshire constituency of Keighley which has a large Muslim population, said that mainstream teachers had complained to her about the punishment their students faced at madrassas. She added her voice to those from Muslim community calling for madrassas to be brought within the regulatory framework.“I think we should have some sort of review at a very high level as to how madrassas are being [run] ... they seem to be a law unto themselves,” she said.
Madrassas and similar religious classes are not subject to any regulation nor are their teachers required to be vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau. Many madrassas are not even known to the authorities because they are run on an ad hoc basis by people in their own living rooms. Even those attached to a mosque which is registered with the Charities Commission are not monitored.
Ms Cryer called for the authorities to be given powers to perform “spot checks” on madrassas and shut down any in which children are being abused.“As the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities grow so do the number of madrassas and therefore the risk to children increases every year,” she said.
The Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board (Minab) - a government approved organisation established in 2006 - has set up a minimum standard for mosques which includes guidelines to safeguard child welfare. However, membership is purely voluntary and Minab has yet to recruit a single mosque.
A spokesman for the board, Yousif Al-Khoei, admitted that some mosques were run by teachers who may be abusing children.
“There is of course a minority of madrassas which have a village mindset who may be practising it but you have to look at it from both angles,” he said. “No community is perfect.”
The Minister for Community Cohesion, Sadiq Khan, urged his fellow Muslims to turn in those responsible for violence against children.
“We need to have religious leaders saying in clear and religious messages that it's unacceptable and that there's no place in Islam for child abuse. It's pure village culture mentality,” he said. “Everybody should expose this. The neighbours who know about it should expose it, the teachers [at mainstream schools] should expose it. We need a culture which says that whistleblowing on these things is a badge of pride not a badge of shame.”
He added: “We are hiding behind the defence of cultural sensitivities and our children are not being protected.”
The Department for Children, Schools and Families said: “We're crystal clear that all organisations, including faith-based, must abide by children protection and safeguarding laws.
“Any actions that go beyond reasonable punishment are absolutely unacceptable and must be dealt with the courts. We urge anyone who is aware of such incidents to report them to the police and relevant authorities.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5315021.ece
Muslim children are being beaten and abused regularly by teachers at some British madrassas - Islamic evening classes - an investigation by The Times has found.
Students have been slapped, punched and had their ears twisted, according to an unpublished report by an imam based on interviews with victims in the north of England. One was “picked up by one leg and spun around” while another said a madrassa teacher was “kicking in my head - like a football”, says the report which was compiled by Irfan Chishti, a former government adviser on Islamic affairs.
Almost 1,600 madrassas operate in Britain, teaching Arabic and the Koran on weekday evenings to about 200,000 children aged from four to their mid-teens.
While there is no hard evidence to indicate how many are involved in the physical abuse of children, The Times has uncovered a disturbing pattern in one town - Rochdale - through interviews with mainstream school teachers, Muslim parents and the children themselves.
One woman told The Times that her niece Hiba, 7, was slapped across the face so hard by her madrassa teacher that her ear was cut. It later became inflamed and she had to have emergency medical treatment.
When the teacher refused to apologise, Hiba's aunt, Jamila, insisted that her niece should be moved to another madrassa. “I have absolutely no respect for religious teachers who behave like this,” she said.
Another girl described how, at the age of 12, she was hit by her madrassa teacher whenever she mispronounced a word or forgot a verse of the Koran.
When Imam Chishti, a religious education teacher who also runs the Light of Islam Academy in Rochdale, decided to carry out his own investigation into the problem he was shocked by how even the victims had grown to accept the abuse. “They all joked about it,” he said. “There's a culture that accepts it.”
Imam Chishti said that part of the problem was that some madrassa teachers were ignorant of British law. Corporal punishment was banned in state schools in 1986 and in all schools in 1998. Under current law teachers acting in loco parentis may use only “reasonable punishment” such as a smack, providing it does not cause any marks or bruising.
But the abuse discovered by The Times investigation goes far beyond what could be termed “reasonable force”. One particularly brutal form of punishment practised in some madrassas is known as the Hen, in which the victim is forced to hold his ears while squatting with his arms fed through his legs.
The magnitude of the problem in Rochdale has led primary school head teachers to break the silence surrounding the problem. Several disclosed that they had asked social services to investigate complaints of physical abuse in madrassas made by pupils but that the victims' parents refused to press charges against the perpetrators either because they felt that physical abuse was normal practice or they feared being ostracised by their community.
Tina Wheatley, deputy head of Heybrook Primary School, said: “If a child comes in with an injury of any sort and it's non-accidental, then schools will refer it to parents, then also to child protection.”
But she said that social workers were often faced by parents who refused to take action against the abusers. “When child protection turns up at the parents' [home], parents don't want to take it any further. There are a lot of head teachers in this area who have spoken to the authorities. It's so sensitive,” she said.
Sandra Hartley, head teacher at Brimrod County Primary School in Rochdale, where 93 per cent of pupils are Muslim, said that she feared that some Muslim parents regarded physical beatings as normal because they had been subjected to the same treatment when they were children.
“You know, it's very much accepted that children are experiencing that type of coercion, unfair treatment and sometimes physical abuse,” she said. “Parents knowing that this is happening and not wanting to move their child from that type of extra-curricular activity is very much the pattern that we have here.”
The Times has also learnt that Rochdale police and social services have met local Muslim leaders six times this year to discuss child protection issues after investigations prompted by claims of physical abuse at madrassas.
Terry Piggott, the executive director of Rochdale Borough Council, admitted that it was difficult for the authorities to take action.
“Because of the rapid turnover of volunteer teachers at madrassas - and the fact that many are part-time - it makes it difficult to regulate and monitor the people who are working with local young people,” he said in a statement.
The problem is not confined to Rochdale. Ann Cryer, Labour MP for the Yorkshire constituency of Keighley which has a large Muslim population, said that mainstream teachers had complained to her about the punishment their students faced at madrassas. She added her voice to those from Muslim community calling for madrassas to be brought within the regulatory framework.“I think we should have some sort of review at a very high level as to how madrassas are being [run] ... they seem to be a law unto themselves,” she said.
Madrassas and similar religious classes are not subject to any regulation nor are their teachers required to be vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau. Many madrassas are not even known to the authorities because they are run on an ad hoc basis by people in their own living rooms. Even those attached to a mosque which is registered with the Charities Commission are not monitored.
Ms Cryer called for the authorities to be given powers to perform “spot checks” on madrassas and shut down any in which children are being abused.“As the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities grow so do the number of madrassas and therefore the risk to children increases every year,” she said.
The Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board (Minab) - a government approved organisation established in 2006 - has set up a minimum standard for mosques which includes guidelines to safeguard child welfare. However, membership is purely voluntary and Minab has yet to recruit a single mosque.
A spokesman for the board, Yousif Al-Khoei, admitted that some mosques were run by teachers who may be abusing children.
“There is of course a minority of madrassas which have a village mindset who may be practising it but you have to look at it from both angles,” he said. “No community is perfect.”
The Minister for Community Cohesion, Sadiq Khan, urged his fellow Muslims to turn in those responsible for violence against children.
“We need to have religious leaders saying in clear and religious messages that it's unacceptable and that there's no place in Islam for child abuse. It's pure village culture mentality,” he said. “Everybody should expose this. The neighbours who know about it should expose it, the teachers [at mainstream schools] should expose it. We need a culture which says that whistleblowing on these things is a badge of pride not a badge of shame.”
He added: “We are hiding behind the defence of cultural sensitivities and our children are not being protected.”
The Department for Children, Schools and Families said: “We're crystal clear that all organisations, including faith-based, must abide by children protection and safeguarding laws.
“Any actions that go beyond reasonable punishment are absolutely unacceptable and must be dealt with the courts. We urge anyone who is aware of such incidents to report them to the police and relevant authorities.”
Comments 1 - 50 of 93 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #299448 by Lucas on December 9, 2008 at 6:22 pm
Absolutely infuriating. Children are being sent to secret places in strangers homes and then brainwashed and physically abused? Where are the police? Do you guys have cops over there? Other Comments by Lucas
3. Comment #299450 by PrimeNumbers on December 9, 2008 at 6:28 pm
All these schools should be registered and inspected. Any "teacher" found to be abusing children locked up. That's step one. Then to remove all under-age children from religious schooling as it's just pure brainwashing. Other Comments by PrimeNumbers
4. Comment #299452 by Don_Quix on December 9, 2008 at 6:33 pm
Spare the rod, spoil the ch...oh wait that's Christianity isn't it? heh. Other Comments by Don_Quix
5. Comment #299455 by Goldy on December 9, 2008 at 6:36 pm
From what I have read, anyone working with children have to have their backgrounds checked - the number of letters I read about volunteers not being able to, well, volunteer because the checks needed make it not worthwhile... how do madrassas get away with it'
http://www.workingwithkids.co.uk/child-protection.html
What is the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006'
The Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006 is designed to implement new and more stringent ways in which to carry out checks on those individuals who wish to work with children, the elderly or people who are classed as being in positions of vulnerability. The act gives employees new powers - in conjunction with those bodies who oversee the checking of potential new employees - to help confirm the safety and reliability of those individuals who wish to work with those who fall under the auspices of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act. The act also looks at how bodies such as the Criminal Records Bureau (CRB) carry out their tasks which include providing basic and enhanced disclosures for potential employees and employers and deals with how the system can run more efficiently and with tighter restrictions than are currently in place.
Use the existing laws - no need to draft new ones. Show no one is above the law, regardless of race, religion or anything else.
Other Comments by Goldy
6. Comment #299458 by Don_Quix on December 9, 2008 at 6:48 pm
I was born and raised in the US, so I have no idea how the British educational system works. Are these "madrassas" anything like private schools are here? As in, the parents of the students opt-out of sending their children to the free government-run public schools and pay tuition to send them to some private institution? I really have no understanding of how your school system works, or how you determine who goes to what school. I assume your public school system isn't entirely unlike our public school system (minus the UK's mandatory religious classes...or at least I think you still have those???), but I wouldn't be surprised if I was entirely wrong.
Other Comments by Don_Quix
7. Comment #299459 by Goldy on December 9, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Don, I believe these madrassas are like Sunday schools - not really a part of the national curriculum but merely a cultural thing set up by the local mosque or muslim cultural group.
I think...
Other Comments by Goldy
8. Comment #299463 by Dhamma on December 9, 2008 at 7:03 pm
Easily solved - CLOSE ALL RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS! Other Comments by Dhamma
9. Comment #299464 by Goldy on December 9, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Madrassas and similar religious classes are not subject to any regulation nor are their teachers required to be vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau. Many madrassas are not even known to the authorities because they are run on an ad hoc basis by people in their own living rooms. Even those attached to a mosque which is registered with the Charities Commission are not monitored.Well, there you have it. Religion above the law? Methinks not - close this loophole and problem solved :-)
Other Comments by Goldy
10. Comment #299468 by Kiwi on December 9, 2008 at 7:52 pm
My impressions of madrassas comes from the film, Kandahar http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0283431/aka Safar e Ghandehar. I found it tough going, watching the way people were treating children and women. The scene with the amputees chasing artificial limbs is amazing.
There was a documentary on the DVD which I can't recall the name of, which had more on these "schools".
I am amazed that anyone who has been indoctinated like this can escape from it, so strength to those who do and are trying to.
Other Comments by Kiwi
11. Comment #299469 by Alternative Carpark on December 9, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Islam shouldn't enter into it at all - these thugs should be investigated and punished just like any other arsehole too weak to pick on someone his/her own size.Anyway, how does just sitting in a room with a bunch of kids, and getting them to memorise a stupid book, qualify you as a 'teacher'?
Other Comments by Alternative Carpark
12. Comment #299472 by tvictor on December 9, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Here in Brazil back 30 to 40 years this was common practice in regular schools. I've heard several stories from my parents and I feel sad to see that this act is being repeated in other places. This is not teaching, this is enforcing unfounded belief. Other Comments by tvictor
13. Comment #299475 by memeweaver on December 9, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Not a world away from Australian Catholic schools (which run as a parallel alternate to the public system) - or the experience of being beaten or otherwise physically abused by Catholic nuns teaching music in country towns. It's so wonderful having your immature fingers being crushed under a piano lid.Other Comments by memeweaver
14. Comment #299476 by Daniella on December 9, 2008 at 8:33 pm
Terry Piggott, the executive director of Rochdale Borough Council, admitted that it was difficult for the authorities to take action.
“Because of the rapid turnover of volunteer teachers at madrassas - and the fact that many are part-time - it makes it difficult to regulate and monitor the people who are working with local young people,” he said in a statement.
How many "teachers" are coming and going in these places that it is difficult to keep track of them all? Sound like some kind of drop in centre for child abusers.
Other Comments by Daniella
15. Comment #299490 by Bitchfinder General on December 9, 2008 at 10:55 pm
'Muslim Children'Other Comments by Bitchfinder General
16. Comment #299491 by Skeptic Pete on December 9, 2008 at 10:55 pm
How do I submit an article for the news section'Other Comments by Skeptic Pete
17. Comment #299493 by Goodbluff on December 9, 2008 at 11:17 pm
I wonder, are Madrassas proliferating in the UK? Their mere existance, in my opinion, IS child abuse!
Seems like the authorities need to qcquire a pair of cojones!
Other Comments by Goodbluff
18. Comment #299497 by Dinah on December 9, 2008 at 11:27 pm
I have read similar stories to this before. I assume one reason nothing is done about it is because it is considered 'culturally sensitive'. However, recent cases such as the Baby P one show that child cruelty continues to take place in all cultures no matter what rules and regulations are in place.Other Comments by Dinah
19. Comment #299502 by Communist on December 9, 2008 at 11:50 pm
PrimeNumbers wrote:
All these schools should be registered and inspected. Any "teacher" found to be abusing children locked up. That's step one. Then to remove all under-age children from religious schooling as it's just pure brainwashing.
Registered? Inspected? They should be closed down permanently. It should be the role and duty of society to provide good education and humane treatment for all children. Some parents, families, clans, preachers and religious groups seem to believe that they own their children like they were some sort of cattle. In a just, modern and humane society they don't. Society ought to protect the human rights of children. Public, integrated schools is the right way.
Other Comments by Communist
20. Comment #299504 by davem on December 9, 2008 at 11:56 pm
Terry Piggott, the executive director of Rochdale Borough Council, admitted that it was difficult for the authorities to take action.
...especially if you have no backbone.
Other Comments by davem
21. Comment #299508 by beanson on December 10, 2008 at 12:15 am
Madrassas and similar religious classes are not subject to any regulation nor are their teachers required to be vetted by the Criminal Records Bureau
Of course not- we don't want to offend religious sensibilities in our multi-cultural society. We certainly don't want to regulate those institutions that are most likely to abuse children.
(Even those, dare I say it, whose core beliefs involve abusing children)
Cautionary note: This post has not been Steve Zara pre-approved
Other Comments by beanson
22. Comment #299514 by sunbeamforjesus on December 10, 2008 at 12:36 am
Just another example of our government's extreme cowardice in the face of religious barbarism.This Piggott twat is typical,"It's difficult"= we are going to look the other way.For any of you outside the U.K.wondering about the state of our education system you will not get a better indication than the weasel words of this highly paid wanker.Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus
23. Comment #299516 by rod-the-farmer on December 10, 2008 at 12:38 am
How is it possible that a child can escape being registered for attendance in a "normal" school ? Is there no record of them being born, no census, and is there no equivalent to a truant officer ? I can appreciate that some parents want to place their children in a religious school, but surely that school/madrassa must be registered with some official body. Could you run some sort of Catholic or Scientology school in the UK without some official supervision ?These "schools" should be brought under the control of the body that is responsible for "normal" schools. And should any complaints be made (even if only by the child, and not endorsed by the parents) all schools should receive the same investigative treatment. When I volunteered to help at a local junior school here in Canada, I had to undergo a police background check, before they would even let me into a classroom. I had to show the same thing when I volunteered to help at my son's high school, and again when I volunteered to tutor adults for Literacy & Numeracy.
How these madrassas have such high staff turnover is beyond me. That implies some sort of lack of commitment, at the very least. If you can't commit to the job of teaching, you should not be allowed to teach. It is more a calling, than a job.
I repeat a suggestion I have made before....anyone wishing to emigrate to a western society from a different culture should be required by law to read and sign a document that outlines the expectations the western society places on its members. We have freedom both of and from religion, we do not permit stoning of women or children, nor harsh physical discipline of children, and we do permit women to attend schools, hold jobs, own property, drive cars, and walk in the streets on their own. Etc. etc. Anyone who does not agree to sign such an agreement is not allowed in. Anyone who does and later breaks those "rules", will be summarily deported, and their family members left behind.
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
24. Comment #299517 by ev-love on December 10, 2008 at 12:41 am
Beating little children has long appealed to followers of gentle Jesus, of course:For instance, here’s the Rev. ‘Tim’ of ‘Grace & Truth Ministries’, :
"God COMMANDS us to spank with an implement in Proverbs 23:13-14...The promise from God is that if we do 'beat him with a rod' we will deliver his soul from hell. What a wonderful reward for obedience to the Lord in this area!...The Bible says use a 'rod', and God has His reasons for commanding that we use a rod. It is better to use a rod than one's hand because God says use a rod. You can run to psychology or to a wrong interpretation of the Scripture, but both paths are sadly a means of you yourself rebelling against God and His clear Words."
Southern Baptists Clyde and Twyla Bullock marketed a “22-inch, $5 white nylon whipping stick” to help parents "train children as Christians”.
Their ad ran: "Spoons are for cooking. Belts are for holding up pants. Hands are for loving. RODS are for chastening." It refers to the rod as "the means prescribed by God," citing Proverbs 23:13-14: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
I Came across all this bullocks at http://www.religioustolerance.org/index.htm
This seems to be my second ‘goodbye’ ! But Suspect this really has to be my “last post” for a while. Happy Christmas.
ev-love
Other Comments by ev-love
25. Comment #299519 by sunbeamforjesus on December 10, 2008 at 12:42 am
Agree with you rod-the-farmer,right up to the last sentence.Can you not see this is exactly what many male immigrants to this country want.Get the family established here then I can go back to Pakistan.Other Comments by sunbeamforjesus
26. Comment #299523 by Raiko on December 10, 2008 at 12:55 am
It looks like the parents and the teachers are violating the law.How come the article doesn't end with "we informed authorities and the teachers and parents in question were questioned/arrested/whatever"?
That's how it should end!
Other Comments by Raiko
27. Comment #299524 by iType on December 10, 2008 at 12:57 am
Why am I not surprised, these people are so wrong in so many ways.Other Comments by iType
28. Comment #299527 by bendigeidfran on December 10, 2008 at 1:07 am
There's not really much that can be done if parents want to set up after school child beating clubs and won't help the police. Beating children was banned in UK schools when I went - sometime in the 80's, but you could still pay for your child to be beaten at a posh school. These people sound like nuns! Other Comments by bendigeidfran
29. Comment #299528 by AForce1 on December 10, 2008 at 1:10 am
As an ex-teacher (& with a very ironic voice) I say well done to these Muslim teachers. There is no better way to get one's message across than to beat the living daylights out of a child until he/she understands 2 2=4, for example.If these kids can't understand that's it's okay to stone 13-year old rape victims, then they must be stupid. It's so logical & enshrined in religious law. What is wrong with these kids? Can't they see the world is ruled rightfully by males, women are inferior & childen expendible? That's why the latest suicide bombers tend to be women & kids, isn't it?
Kids today! They have no respect for the old traditions.
Other Comments by AForce1
30. Comment #299532 by maxamillion on December 10, 2008 at 1:22 am
"Muslim children are being beaten and abused regularly by teachers"But it's the religion of peace?
Other Comments by maxamillion
31. Comment #299533 by fsm1965 on December 10, 2008 at 1:24 am
Nearly as bad as the Xtian ones "Jesus Camp" exposed.(Grabs coat and leaves)
Other Comments by fsm1965
32. Comment #299536 by JesperB on December 10, 2008 at 1:34 am
Almost 1,600 madrassas operate in Britain
I honestly thought that was a typo when I first read it.
Are British politicians actively trying to end British civilization? Have they lost their minds? When did it become okay to open even one single institution with the sole purpose of teaching nonsense to children? And now 1600?
Religious schools do not help integration. Instead, they create parallel societies.
Close down those hate-factories immediately.
Every one of them.
Other Comments by JesperB
33. Comment #299539 by Vaal on December 10, 2008 at 1:45 am
another said a madrassa teacher was “kicking in my head - like a football”
Words fail me! This scumbag should be rotting in jail where he belongs. Had he laid a finger on my child then he would be looking for his testicles in his mouth! I hate to think what Laurie would do to this vicious sadist, masquerading as a "religious" teacher! It makes my blood boil!
Zero tolerance towards preachers of hate, and towards ANY teachers abusing children. Any apologists should be given short shrift and any abusers should be facing jail terms, and if not citizens, deportation, including the parents if they refuse to take action against these terminal cretins.
There is of course a minority of madrassas which have a village mindset who may be practising it but you have to look at it from both angles,” he said. “No community is perfect.”
NO,NO,NO. Unacceptable. Wrong response! The angle to take, especially from a "so called" spokesman, is to say "we shall be investigating these abuses, and these thugs will be bought to justice on every occasion", not cultural fudge like the above cop-out.
Why is it every day there seems to be another story about abuse in these vile maddrasses, children being taught to hate other children outside of their religion, children being taught to think of "them" and "us". Children being taught to hate everything that is good about Britain, and our hard won enlightenment. It is about time our lily-livered government started to use the laws available to them and crack down hard on these outrageous practices, with no ambiguity.
Rod, unfortunately, I totally endorse what you say.
I fear for our country. Some parts of it are turning into the maelstrom of Pakistan, and unless addressed now, will lead to untold problems for future generations.
Other Comments by Vaal
34. Comment #299544 by CraigB on December 10, 2008 at 1:48 am
Savage people for a savage religion.Other Comments by CraigB
35. Comment #299545 by Ford Prefect on December 10, 2008 at 1:50 am
I have been taking a teaching course recently. Part of the course referred to professional responsibilities. One topic that came up was the 2003 Green Paper, 'Every Child Matters'. This was a response to the tragic death of Victoria Climbie at the hands of her aunt. This resulted in the 'Education and Inspections Act 2006' which devolved all aspects of childrens services under Ofsted. Why aren't these madrassas Ofsted inspected ?Other Comments by Ford Prefect
36. Comment #299548 by rod-the-farmer on December 10, 2008 at 1:55 am
Re 25. Comment #299519 by sunbeamforjesus
Agree with you rod-the-farmer, right up to the last sentence.Can you not see this is exactly what many male immigrants to this country want.Get the family established here then I can go back to Pakistan.
Perhaps my thinking is not correct here. I assumed that the loss of control by men over their wives and children would be enough to help curtail these practices. Do you have a source for the idea in your last sentence ?
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
37. Comment #299550 by icanus on December 10, 2008 at 1:56 am
Are British politicians actively trying to end British civilization? Have they lost their minds? When did it become okay to open even one single institution with the sole purpose of teaching nonsense to children? And now 1600?
These aren't institutions - that's part of the problem, which makes them so hard to regulate (not that that means we shouldn't regulate them). For the most part they're just parents sending their kids to someone from their mosque's house to "learn about the koran".
Ideally, I'd like to see this sort of after-school brainwashing club done away with entirely, but in he interim I'd settle for regulation and locking up adults who beat children (and holding parents who *knowingly* send their children to be beaten to account as complicit in the abuse).
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38. Comment #299560 by chrissetti on December 10, 2008 at 2:18 am
I don't understand how this happens. I was a member of an after-school youth club then when I turned 18 I decided to help run it. I had to go on several youth leadership courses and undergo the CRB checks irregardless of the fact that I had been a member for more than five years.The same stringent rules should be placed on these 'classes' and abusers should be arrested the same as any other child abuser.
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39. Comment #299565 by RussC on December 10, 2008 at 2:32 am
The Mosques and Imams National Advisory Board (Minab) - a government approved organisation established in 2006 - has set up a minimum standard for mosques which includes guidelines to safeguard child welfare. However, membership is purely voluntary and Minab has yet to recruit a single mosque.
This just sums up how seriously the government and the muslim community are taking this. A voluntary body and no members in over 2 years.
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40. Comment #299574 by sunbeamforjesus on December 10, 2008 at 3:02 am
Hi rod-the-farmerThe history of Indian/Pakistani immigration into the
U.K.since the sixties has featured the practice of one of the males in a family to gain entrance to work.After a qualifying period) believe in those days it was 2 years they were allowed to bring certain relatives in.As i remember these were wives,children,parents and wives parents.Any of these could then bring in a 'betrothed'to whom they were shortly to be married.The practice was widely abused and uncontrolled.The original entrant eventually went back to Pakistan/India.Passports were freely interchanged amongst family members to ease passage.please understand I am not saying any of this with a racist slant.I worked with a large Asian workforce throughout the 70s and 80s and found these people very open at discussing what they did.They were very hospitable and I was invited to and attended many family functions where I was made most welcome.Your point about loss of control over the women is misplaced,all the male members of the family work together to keep the women in their place.In the work environment they were very different characters from the cowed creatures at home.Sexy funny and great company.Sometimes on the rare occasion one of them was sick,they would just send another family member to take their place,seeing nothing wrong.I recall one woman who was a very hard worker and who was unwell at work one day.She was about 6 feet tall,very attractive and polite.As her manager I suggested the company nurse call her husband to come to collect her as she could not drive.He ownwed a restaurant and was available during the day.When this woman found out what the nurse had done she was petrified and several times asked the nurse to help her to commit suicide before her husband arrived.Even some of her co-workers said it was preferable to what she would suffer at her husbands hands because of her unpardonable offence of being unwell at work.I gave instruction that when her husband arrived he was not to be let into the works surgery but was to be sent to my office.I was determined to give this huge bully a few choice words.With some trepidation I awaitecd this guys arrival.I asked one of the security guards to bring him to me and stand by if I needed a hand.Eventually,a grinning security guard opened my office door and stood aside to reveal a guy who looked and sounded (with a squeaky Indian accent)like Dudley Moore!All 5ft of him!
Suffice it to say that all was smoothed over.
But,what came out of this was not the fear of what her diminutive spouse would have done to her,but all his brothers,uncles etc. who would have joined in.
Sorry to on a bit!
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41. Comment #299579 by Cowcakes on December 10, 2008 at 3:18 am
30. Comment #299532 "But it's the religion of peace?"
And of course the only way to get peaceful religion is through Fear and Intimidation.
Also comfy chairs.
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42. Comment #299588 by brainsys on December 10, 2008 at 3:34 am
I'm confused here. I thought that corporal punishment outside the family was now illegal (and within the family with some exceptions?). Hence subject to one of the assault laws.Whether this happens in a Madrassa, Sunday School or Scout Group makes no difference. Prosecute (or at least caution). If that's the law then everyone, parent, teachers, children have the duty to report. If they have a problem with that - then they can agitate to change the law. I don't think they will get very far.
I hope this isn't going to become a specific anti-Islam thread. The issue, surely, is that we need to stamp out this medieval approach to childcare. This was endemic in UK secular education until very, very recently. We can claim no high ground. Just that we having just seen the light we have to both respect but fight the traditional view in many societies that sparing the rod spoils the child.
Otherwise we alienate those we need to be the whistleblowers. Its the innocent children that suffer if we fail.
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43. Comment #299603 by NormanDoering on December 10, 2008 at 4:01 am
Dhamma wrote:Easily solved - CLOSE ALL RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS!
I wonder if that comment would get you banned on Ray Comfort's blog? I can't try it myself, I've already been banned from there:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/12/why-they-want-to-silence-us.html
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44. Comment #299608 by sunbeamforjesus on December 10, 2008 at 4:15 am
In reply to brainsys #299588The difficulty is the very small number of whistleblowers and the fact that the perpetrators of the violence will invariably have the support of the parents who suffered likewise in their youth.Islam is very clever in passing something off in the face of adverse publicity.It will either be:
1.A cultural custom.
2.A religious custom.
3.A national custom.
4.An historic custom.
Or perm any 3 from 4.
Of course Islam as we know, is a religion,a nation,a custom and a culture.We of course are required to respect any classification they choose for a particular case.
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45. Comment #299624 by brainsys on December 10, 2008 at 4:48 am
sunbeamforjesus: Interesting you use the words "Islam is very clever in passing .... " suggesting you personify Islam as a single beast. Which is strange as it doesn't have a head Pope or ArchBishop who may try but fail to 'personify' different divisions of a competitive religion.Islam is just what different Muslims think it is. And we have the paradox that they all think it the same thing but have different and contradictory views of it.
So getting back to the subject in hand. The problem is not Islam or Allah, but people's perception of what they believe this fiction would want done with their child. Funnily enough much is of the same as we see in many communities. Like beating kids to make them listen or make them do as you want. Violence has attractions whether it be Congolese rebels or Chicago police.
The bottom line is that we give up violence - not because it is bad - but in the end it can be shown it doesn't work. This to traditional societies appears counter-intuitive. That's why it was hard to get corporal punishment stopped in christian and secular schools. But we did.
Its going to be just as hard/harder to do it in Muslim Madrassas. But as you say the only people who can stop it are the Muslims themselves (doesn't matter what the law may say - it is useless if nobody whistleblows).
That's why I say the issue is to convince a greater number of Muslims to move on. A straight attack on Islam as with any other tradition create a natural reaction to defend. In other words you re-inforce old attitudes, not modify them.
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46. Comment #299625 by tiove on December 10, 2008 at 4:52 am
i never got beaten my self cos the imams knew my father did enough of that, but i did see one kid get in an wrist lock and he was sort of screaming, because of a pronunciation mistake in recitation of the koran A PRONUNCIATION MISTAKE!!!! everyone was laughing i tried not to but i couldn't help itOther Comments by tiove
47. Comment #299638 by sunbeamforjesus on December 10, 2008 at 5:33 am
brainsysI don't see Islam as an entity personally, but I use it here as 'Muslims' use it themselves when they wish to try to add weight to a statement.Christians used to term 'christendom'in similar manner.My point is they will choose one particular head of the serpent for each item of adverse publicity as it arises.
In addition to the counter-intuitiveness of a 'traditional society'their holy book was written in the 8th century incorporating contemporary methods of teaching.This they maintain is the perfect word of their deity, doubly difficult to discuss and alter.
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48. Comment #299648 by aquilacane on December 10, 2008 at 6:09 am
Ooh, a religious group that is trying to gain control over young minds resorts to violent intimidation. How unexpected. If the parents don't complain to the police they are supporters of child abuse and should be charged with aiding and abetting as an accessory. Other Comments by aquilacane
49. Comment #299654 by CaptainMandate on December 10, 2008 at 6:22 am
from aquilacane:
Ooh, a religious group that is trying to gain control over young minds resorts to violent intimidation. How unexpected. If the parents don't complain to the police they are supporters of child abuse and should be charged with aiding and abetting as an accessory.
maybe the irish independant should run a story about it with a picture of baby P to remind us it's about something "bad". mind you didn't the pope just thank islam for bringing god back to europe (qm)
"god", "institutionalised child abuse", 'sall the same to me
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50. Comment #299659 by AForce1 on December 10, 2008 at 6:38 am
While I agree with what everyone has said about what should happen to these child beaters there is a problem (or several problems). These "schools" are not chools but gatherings/associations/get-togethers & therefore are outside the law. It's just like fans of the cult series "the Prisoner" meeting in someone's front room. It's not illegal.Of ourse, it's illegal to mistreat the participants in any such meeting but the police need someone to make a complaint & evidence Remember Jermy Clarkson's car was caught on camera breaking the speed limit but couldn't be prosecuted because the police couldn't prove he was drivng the car at the time? What chance do you think the police have of collecting evidence of this abuse from people who are probably to afraid to speak up. They live in enclaves in white supremist places like Rochdale, Burnley, Blackburn. And, who really thinks the British white police care anyway. Even if they're not members of the BNP a crime that isn't on the books is a crime that doesn't need to be addressed. It keeps the stats looking better.
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1. Comment #299447 by King of NH on December 9, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Parents that willingly submit their children to abuse can lose their rights of raising that child (and all others) and spend a few years in a prison cell. Period. What utter cowards with such lack of intellect that they resort to abuse to deal with a five year old. Seriously? I should think that "Allah's inspiration" would be somehow, I don't know, more grand than "beat the little brat!" The world seems to be getting crazier.
Time for the plan B. Space ship for the rest of us.
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