The Natural Order Of Things2. Comment #317811 by papasitocanada on January 12, 2009 at 12:12 pm
This article is fascinating. Not only is it written in superb, British English, it is clear and interesting to read.3. Comment #317818 by Philip1978 on January 12, 2009 at 12:19 pm
Even sophisticated, entropy-defying complex systems are subject to the weather-like vagaries of mathematical chaos
4. Comment #317819 by Meph on January 12, 2009 at 12:20 pm
5. Comment #317823 by God fearing Atheist on January 12, 2009 at 12:26 pm
Indeed, it can make something far more complex than a conscious, deliberate designer ever could: with apologies to William Paley and Richard Dawkins, it can make a watchmaker.
6. Comment #317834 by kaiserkriss on January 12, 2009 at 12:47 pm
7. Comment #317836 by Diacanu on January 12, 2009 at 12:51 pm
8. Comment #317840 by xmd on January 12, 2009 at 12:53 pm
9. Comment #317847 by Stafford Gordon on January 12, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Wonderful; well written and giving historical clarity.10. Comment #317856 by Apeseed on January 12, 2009 at 1:05 pm
Living beings are eddies in the stream of entropy. That is to say, while the universe gradually becomes more homogeneous and disordered, little parts of it can reverse the trend and become briefly more ordered and complex by capturing packets of energy.
11. Comment #317873 by NewEnglandBob on January 12, 2009 at 1:14 pm
12. Comment #317884 by beebhack on January 12, 2009 at 1:21 pm
I recommend Ridley's The Red Queen (about sex) and the Origins of Virtue (about why animals cooperate) -- absolutely seminal, consistently fascinating and, in the case of Origins, a barrage of evidence to use against those who insist that only belief in a deity stops us from slaughtering each other.13. Comment #317904 by InfuriatedSciTeacher on January 12, 2009 at 1:32 pm
Well written.. I'll be sharing this with my department, or at least those members who are likely to bother reading it. I find the Smith/Darwin comparison interesting, especially after reading a fair amount of Enlightenment material. The interdisciplnary aspects are a wonderful addition.14. Comment #317906 by Apeseed on January 12, 2009 at 1:36 pm
#10 by Apeseed: I think you meant an engine to reduce entropy, not an engine of entropy.
15. Comment #317909 by Apeseed on January 12, 2009 at 1:40 pm
16. Comment #317914 by AmericanGodless on January 12, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Living beings are eddies in the stream of entropy.#10 by Apeseed & #11 by NewEnglandBob: Yes, life is both an engine for general increased entropy and for localized decreased entropy. It is made up of dissipative structures, which utilize a flow of energy and a general increase in entropy to build and maintain themselves as local organized structures, thus doing both. The "eddy" metaphor is quite illustrative, as an eddy in a stream depends upon the flow of the stream to keep those leaves swirling around in its center; but while it is there, more leaves are drawn in, and an organized structure is formed that would not be there but for the energy flow of the stream.
17. Comment #317921 by madamX on January 12, 2009 at 1:51 pm
Please be careful with the word entropy. Observations show that physical entropy does not decrease, ever. The “designed” complexity we observe around us is a product of an increase in physical entropy, not an exception to the rule. Also, it is better to use the word organized and not ordered. A crystal is ordered; a human is organized, and thus complex.18. Comment #317927 by JAMCAM87 on January 12, 2009 at 1:57 pm
I did find this strange.
Living beings are eddies in the stream of entropy. That is to say, while the universe gradually becomes more homogeneous and disordered, little parts of it can reverse the trend and become briefly more ordered and complex by capturing packets of energy.
Didn't this site recently feature an article about how life is actually an engine of entropy' Taking highly coherent energy from the sun and using it to generate biological structures, all the time stepping the energy down until it is dissipated into kinetic energy and finally heat.
19. Comment #317936 by alabasterocean on January 12, 2009 at 2:11 pm
20. Comment #317942 by Apeseed on January 12, 2009 at 2:22 pm
Isn't an organ, like the heart for example, more ordered than a bacterium and thus has lower entropy'
21. Comment #317947 by Stuart Paul Wood on January 12, 2009 at 2:26 pm
Thought this was an engrossing article by Matt Ripley.22. Comment #317951 by mmurray on January 12, 2009 at 2:32 pm
Sorry about the weirdly nested blockquotes.
I have no idea why that happened.
23. Comment #317963 by Apeseed on January 12, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Looking at the source it looks like you opened two blockquotes but never closed any of them. I expect you mean the second opening blockquote to be a closing blockquote.
24. Comment #317974 by crusader234 on January 12, 2009 at 3:05 pm
25. Comment #317975 by Stephen Welch on January 12, 2009 at 3:06 pm
Good article by Ridley with some lovely imagery about the survival of the fittest in the fields of both technology and ideas.26. Comment #318034 by Friggertool on January 12, 2009 at 4:15 pm
This article could serve as the basis for a master class in how to write good English. Such economy.
Richard
27. Comment #318074 by Don_Quix on January 12, 2009 at 5:23 pm
Science is evolving in the way it describes this creation more eliquintly every day.
28. Comment #318080 by NakedCelt on January 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm
In the American South and Midwest, where Smith’s individualist, libertarian, small-government philosophy is all the rage, Darwin is reviled for his contradiction of creation. Yet if the market needs no central planner, why should life need an intelligent designer? Conversely, in the average European biol- ogy laboratory you will find fervent believers in the individualist, emergent, decentralised properties of genomes who prefer dirigiste determinism to bring order to the economy.I can see an equal irony in Ridley's article: he himself draws a liberal-libertarian conclusion from Darwinian principles, yet the thrust of the article is to dethrone the Cartesian thinking, designing, reasoning individual so beloved of classic liberalism and Randite libertarianism.
29. Comment #318082 by Hellene on January 12, 2009 at 5:37 pm
This article and the interview by Henry Chu, have put a ray of sunshine in my evening. This is what I live for.30. Comment #318085 by mmurray on January 12, 2009 at 5:44 pm
Thanks Michael. I'll watch out for that. My tagging can be a mess sometimes.
31. Comment #318090 by NMcC on January 12, 2009 at 6:02 pm
"This article could serve as the basis for a master class in how to write good English."32. Comment #318103 by cyris8400 on January 12, 2009 at 6:33 pm
Ridley's premise here is similar to Michael Shermer's thesis in his book, "Mind of the Market."33. Comment #318112 by thelivingbrian on January 12, 2009 at 7:18 pm
34. Comment #318120 by ljirving on January 12, 2009 at 8:03 pm
JAMCAM at 18 said;Isn't an organ, like the heart for example, more ordered than a bacterium and thus has lower entropy' Do organisms not evolve to lower entropy states over millions of years or is this an oversimplification'
35. Comment #318187 by Half_Cut on January 13, 2009 at 1:26 am
36. Comment #318191 by chinnus on January 13, 2009 at 1:54 am
NMcC - inference is the right word, you saw a criticism where there was none, there was no implied criticism, only inferred. Besides which, as I'm sure Marx and Engels would readily admit, knowledge is not stationary, but advances organically (as the article itself says) and to therefore state that anyone - from Darwin to Marx - held the consumate 'big picture' would be an error in judgement (something I'm sure the majority here would agree with).37. Comment #318192 by bamboospitfire on January 13, 2009 at 1:54 am
38. Comment #318194 by brainsys on January 13, 2009 at 2:19 am
Yes to all the above. It is a good well written article. Unlike this comment :-(39. Comment #318198 by Bonzai on January 13, 2009 at 2:30 am
Diacanu - and I have often noted the hypocrisy of Hampstead lefties who embrace Darwin and reject Smith. Regrettably, some people just seem to be incapable of intellectual consistency.
40. Comment #318199 by George Lennan on January 13, 2009 at 2:32 am
41. Comment #318202 by Bonzai on January 13, 2009 at 2:41 am
Secondly anybody who has worked in system theory can point to areas where system design can outsmart individual autonomous development. This, sadly, does often lead to system designers becoming too carried away and imposing systems that don't (cf the average soviet 5 year plan).
42. Comment #318213 by brainsys on January 13, 2009 at 3:11 am
Bonzai, That's why I said the 'average' Soviet plan. I agree the industrial side worked quite well but the agricultural collectivisation side did not and extincitivised many from benefitting from the other. Overall a planning failure methinks.43. Comment #318219 by Bonzai on January 13, 2009 at 3:19 am
But in the end if one of these produces markedly poorer results than the others the countries will be shamed into adopting the better parts of other systems
44. Comment #318224 by Stephen Jones on January 13, 2009 at 3:27 am
George Monbiot on Matt Ridley45. Comment #318233 by brainsys on January 13, 2009 at 3:43 am
Bonzai - so why are Americans so wedded to their socialised road system?46. Comment #318251 by bamboospitfire on January 13, 2009 at 4:20 am
47. Comment #318254 by chinnus on January 13, 2009 at 4:24 am
Stephen Jones - Nice link. I wrote an article of my own unpublished - mainly, it seems, because I'm shite - on the Magna Carta that took a little look at the Northern Rock debacle. Didn't link the two names. Now I can't help but feel a pillock for enjoying this article. Ah well.48. Comment #318258 by brainsys on January 13, 2009 at 4:48 am
Yep, thanks Stephen too. I didn't know his history when I wrote (above) about none market systems sometimes being superior.49. Comment #318259 by NMcC on January 13, 2009 at 5:02 am
BONZAI:50. Comment #318260 by InfuriatedSciTeacher on January 13, 2009 at 5:03 am
Brainsys> On the NHS as opposed to a market driven health care system: Having lived in both the US and UK, I can somewhat speak on both. I know that American conservatives don't like the idea of socialised health care because 1) they don't want to pay more taxes if it doesn't directly benefit them (in fact, they don't want to pay the taxes they're charged now. I suppose that hasn't changed much in 200 years.) and 2) they're afraid that it will result in less competent doctors due to a lack of revenue. (I find this to be a difficult debate point, as I don't know enough about the NHS to discuss pay scales). One can certainly argue that the NHS is beneficial to children, the elderly, and the unemployed, but I find it more challenging to demonstrate that middle or upper class workers would benefit from such a system. Based on the amount of money that employers spend on health care for those individuals, it seems economically advantageous to nationalise the system; the crux of the issue is that the taxation systems are also different, and the American system is in serious need of an overhaul to efficiently fund social programs.This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
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1. Comment #317802 by Richard Dawkins on January 12, 2009 at 11:52 am
Richard
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