Tuesday, January 13, 2009 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

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Catholics ordered to keep quiet over Virgin visions

by Independent

Thanks to Vidar for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catholics-ordered-to-keep-quiet-over-virgin-visions-1332016.html

Catholics who claim they have seen the Virgin Mary will be forced to remain silent about the apparitions until a team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have fully investigated their claims under new Vatican guidelines aimed at stamping out false claims of miracles.

The Pope has instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly the Holy Office of the Inquisition, to draw up a new handbook to help bishops snuff out an explosion of bogus heavenly apparitions.

Benedict XVI plans to update the Vatican's current rules on investigating apparitions to help distinguish between true and false claims of visions of Jesus and the Virgin Mary, messages, stigmata (the appearances of the five wounds of Christ), weeping and bleeding statues and Eucharistic miracles.

Monsignor Luis Francisco Ladaria Ferrer, a respected Spanish Jesuit archbishop, has been placed in charge of drawing up the handbook, known as a "vademecum", which will update the current rules set in 1978.

According to Petrus, an Italian online magazine which leans towards conservative elements in the Vatican, anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent and do not court publicity over their claims. If they refuse to obey, this will be taken as a sign that their claims are false.

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics, to certify their mental health while theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Guidelines for the approval of apparitions and revelations were last issued in 1978. They lay down that a diocesan bishop can "either on his own initiative or at the request of the faithful" choose to investigate an alleged apparition. He then submits a report to the Vatican for approval.

Posted: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 | Permalink

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1. Comment #318411 by Szymanowski on January 13, 2009 at 12:10 pm

Is this actually from the Onion?

new Vatican guidelines aimed at stamping out false claims of miracles

anyone who claims to have seen an apparition will only be believed as long as they remain silent

:)

Actually, that's quite a good principle. From now on I'll believe everything the Pope ever says, so long as he remains silent.

Other Comments by Szymanowski

2. Comment #318414 by Virgil on January 13, 2009 at 12:15 pm

Wow.. it is appalling to think money will be spent on this. Of course, the vision is valid if it aligns with the current church teachings.

Other Comments by Virgil

3. Comment #318417 by Linda on January 13, 2009 at 12:19 pm

Will the Vatican ever come clean and explain why there is a high school here named for an apparition, Our Lady of Fatima?

Other Comments by Linda

4. Comment #318419 by jaytee_555 on January 13, 2009 at 12:25 pm

I defy anyone with an IQ sufficiently high to be allowed to cross a road unaccompanied to read this and keep a straight face.

Other Comments by jaytee_555

5. Comment #318420 by mjwemdee on January 13, 2009 at 12:28 pm

I really must stop reading articles on this website while eating breakfast cereal. I'm afraid I have snorted milk and cornflakes all over my keyboard...

Other Comments by mjwemdee

6. Comment #318423 by SteveN on January 13, 2009 at 12:31 pm

If the visionary is considered credible they will ultimately be questioned by one or more demonologists and exorcists to exclude the possibility that Satan is hiding behind the apparitions in order to deceive the faithful.

Well, that's all right then.

What a bunch of pathetic plonkers

Other Comments by SteveN

7. Comment #318424 by clodhopper on January 13, 2009 at 12:32 pm

No dammit! I will NOT keep quiet. I DID see a virgin yesterday.

Other Comments by clodhopper

8. Comment #318425 by DWLehning on January 13, 2009 at 12:34 pm

It still amazes me that we still have demonologists and exorcists in this day and time. But I will give them some credit if they allow psychiatrists who are atheists, along with those who are Catholic to examine these people.

Other Comments by DWLehning

9. Comment #318427 by the great teapot on January 13, 2009 at 12:35 pm

I can understand their caution on this matter.
I remember 20 years or so ago some old chap embarrased them when he claimed not just to have seen an apparition of our Lady, but she also took a bullet for him. "Nurse!"

Other Comments by the great teapot

10. Comment #318431 by KRKBAB on January 13, 2009 at 12:47 pm

Me thinks this is a joke.
So there are true and false visions of Jesus and Virgin Mary. That's funny.

Other Comments by KRKBAB

11. Comment #318432 by Dinah on January 13, 2009 at 12:48 pm

The visionaries will then be visited by a team of psychiatrists, either atheists or Catholics

This suggests Catholics believe it is better to be an atheist than a nasty Protestant or other dissenter from the True Faith.

Other Comments by Dinah

12. Comment #318434 by jimbob on January 13, 2009 at 12:52 pm

I have a mole that resembles the virgin Mary on my ass. Will the whole team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have to look at it? How closely?

;-)

Other Comments by jimbob

13. Comment #318436 by amuck on January 13, 2009 at 12:55 pm

... time to send in the atheist psychiatrists ...

@ #12 I have a mole that resembles the virgin Mary on my ass. Will the whole team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have to look at it? How closely?

Are you a pre-pubescent alter boy ? You'll have to beat them off (so to speak) with a stick.

Other Comments by amuck

14. Comment #318438 by Philrt on January 13, 2009 at 1:02 pm

I don't know if everyone here realizes what a great step this is.

As someone who grew up in the Catholic Church, I can tell you that this means that they realize what a laughing stock all these virgin Mary sightings and the like have become and they are trying to minimize the damage

This is a small victory folks, lets enjoy it.

Other Comments by Philrt

15. Comment #318446 by Ygern on January 13, 2009 at 1:08 pm

Snuff out bogus ones. As opposed to the real ones.

:)

Lets start a campaign to get this horribly repressive ruling overthrown!
I insist that fanatics and nutjobs be allowed to express themselves in full view of the public.

On a more serious note, Philrt, it isn't actually anything new. The Catholic Church has always claimed (I know, you're choking here) to be extremely skeptical and careful before ratifying miracles and saints.

I'm not making this up. They genuinely have always claimed this.

They are simply re-stating their long-held public policy. In reality, its a load of bollocks from beginning to end.

They are just trying to gain a veneer of credibility. Don't let them kid you for a second.

Other Comments by Ygern

16. Comment #318451 by Sargeist on January 13, 2009 at 1:11 pm

I had always been under the impression that miracles already had to be examined by a team of specialists before they were declared authentic.

I don't see anything necessarily silly about a group that seriously believes in miracles wanting to ensure that the "real thing" is not debased by self-serving falsehood (for example).

Other Comments by Sargeist

17. Comment #318453 by friendlypig on January 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm

12. Comment #318434 by jimbob on January 13, 2009 at 12:52 pm
I have a mole that resembles the virgin Mary on my ass. Will the whole team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have to look at it? How closely?

Are you seriously considering bearing your ass and bending over to be examined by a Catholic priest?

The mind boggles.

Other Comments by friendlypig

18. Comment #318454 by Dhamma on January 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm

If those are real psychologists, they should quickly be able tell the rest of the crew to pack their bags and leave again.

Should one assume they're "unbiased" catholic psychologists?

Other Comments by Dhamma

19. Comment #318455 by ahmunnaeetchoo on January 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm

oooooooooooohhh the irony, it kills me like a rusty sledgehammer.

Other Comments by ahmunnaeetchoo

20. Comment #318456 by aquilacane on January 13, 2009 at 1:12 pm

Damn, I found a rock with markings that are definitely passable as a Pieta (well, not quite. Jesus would have to be a baby). I could have flogged it on ebay for big cash. I should get on it before this becomes better know.

They should do the same thing with hearing the voice of god. Start with Ratz himself.

Other Comments by aquilacane

21. Comment #318457 by Vaal on January 13, 2009 at 1:13 pm

The Pope has instructed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly the Holy Office of the Inquisition, to draw up a new handbook to help bishops snuff out an explosion of bogus heavenly apparitions.

He has already got one, its called the Bible!

Ah, the irony is delicious :)

Other Comments by Vaal

22. Comment #318458 by Ivan The Not So Bad on January 13, 2009 at 1:13 pm

The Presbeterians should consider similar guidelines for angel sightings:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/28365352#28365352

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

23. Comment #318459 by croatcat on January 13, 2009 at 1:13 pm

Dem wild and crazy catholics! Doncha just love em!

If they're not careful, they'll investigate all their miracles away. Well maybe not in parts of the world where attendance is down and donations waning. Would be interesting to track this. Nah, better things to do in life.

Other Comments by croatcat

24. Comment #318462 by kram50 on January 13, 2009 at 1:14 pm

I think all aspects of a religion, based on a fictional book, should be put on the shelf until an investigation reveals the truth....they may be investigating for a very, very long time.

This article does appear to be just for laughs.

Other Comments by kram50

25. Comment #318464 by aquilacane on January 13, 2009 at 1:18 pm

If they find my rock to be a real miracle, I wonder how much I could get if I hold it hostage? Pay up or Mary and the kid get it!

Other Comments by aquilacane

26. Comment #318483 by fsm1965 on January 13, 2009 at 1:34 pm

i call poe's law...

Other Comments by fsm1965

27. Comment #318485 by Caudimordax on January 13, 2009 at 1:36 pm

No torturers on board? I hear Dick Cheney will be out of work next week.

Other Comments by Caudimordax

28. Comment #318486 by fsm1965 on January 13, 2009 at 1:36 pm

btw: just discovered this... no link here? odd!

http://friendlyatheist.com/2009/01/12/richard-dawkins-new-book-2/

Other Comments by fsm1965

29. Comment #318494 by Blondin on January 13, 2009 at 1:45 pm

When there's somethin' strange in the neighbourhood,
Who ya goin' call?

Other Comments by Blondin

30. Comment #318497 by black wolf on January 13, 2009 at 1:46 pm

It doesn't say how long after the visions they will be investigated. You know, residual drugs aren't measurable after a time span. Are they testing at all?
What if someone just makes the bloody story up. Theologically accurate, skilled enough to appear credible, mentally stable: bingo, a real vision.

Their method has so many gaping holes in it (at least as far as the article tells us) that James Randi could drive the atheist bus through them sideways.

Gulibel? Not we, we iz catlick. We inventz reason. Reed popecatz book nao.

Other Comments by black wolf

31. Comment #318505 by prettygoodformonkeys on January 13, 2009 at 1:54 pm

I don't recall who I am quoting here, but:

"Arrgh! The stupid! It burns!"

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

32. Comment #318506 by Cartomancer on January 13, 2009 at 1:58 pm

Hmm, sounds like a rare career opportunity for aspiring young daemonologists has just opened up. And there was me kicking round wondering what to do with myself when I finish my DPhil and end up in the big bad world of the unemployed once more...

Now where did I put that copy of the Pseudomonarchia Daemonum...?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

33. Comment #318521 by root2squared on January 13, 2009 at 2:17 pm

i call poe's law...

Or pope's law, for whenever the Catholics do something dumb.

Other Comments by root2squared

34. Comment #318527 by alexo on January 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm

This is a comedy sketch surely? "Nobody expects the Spanish Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"!

Other Comments by alexo

35. Comment #318533 by F_A_F on January 13, 2009 at 2:34 pm

.....theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

So essentially if the church doesn't like what the vision says, then it's obviously false. Is that just a posh way of sticking fingers in ears and saying "la la la not listening...." ?

Other Comments by F_A_F

36. Comment #318534 by Random Mutant on January 13, 2009 at 2:37 pm

... theologians will assess the content of any heavenly messages to see if they contravene Church teachings.

So even if their god truly revealed a miracle, if it isn't what the church says is true, it's discarded as false. This means the Catholic Church is now playing the arbitrator of God's intent for mankind.

Oh, wait...

[EDIT] Re 35. Comment #318533 by F_A_F on January 13, 2009 at 2:34 pm SNAP!!

Other Comments by Random Mutant

37. Comment #318535 by Eshto on January 13, 2009 at 2:45 pm

I don't know if everyone here realizes what a great step this is.

As someone who grew up in the Catholic Church, I can tell you that this means that they realize what a laughing stock all these virgin Mary sightings and the like have become and they are trying to minimize the damage

Or maybe they just want to regain some of the authoritarian control they once had over the spiritual lives of millions of people. If any old Jane or Joe can be contacted by a vision it means God is speaking directly to the masses, without the need of the Church to interpret for him.

Other Comments by Eshto

38. Comment #318537 by Stafford Gordon on January 13, 2009 at 2:47 pm

Catholics who what?...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................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Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

39. Comment #318538 by robotaholic on January 13, 2009 at 2:50 pm

I wish the retards in the catholic church would quit making pronouncements and just shut the FUCK up.

Other Comments by robotaholic

40. Comment #318551 by chinnus on January 13, 2009 at 2:59 pm

Alexo, nice one.

Our main weapon is silence. . . and interrogation. . . our two weapons.

Other Comments by chinnus

41. Comment #318558 by Sean on January 13, 2009 at 3:08 pm

The less-fun side of this is that these buggers are busy working in developing world countries where this kind of thing is taken pretty seriously.

F_A_F. It would indeed be interesting to see what'd happen if Jesus showed up advocating contraception, homosexuality and human rights. Not likely since he was in all probability an orthodox jew, but I suspect the inquisition would have him back up on a cross pretty sharpish.

Other Comments by Sean

42. Comment #318563 by TouchedbytheBishop on January 13, 2009 at 3:15 pm

So now even the church itself is admitting that all people who claim to have seen Mary or Jesus are mentally unstable wackjobs? This is bloody brilliant! Of course in true catholic tradition they have to set up a new board of pompous pricks prancing around in purple dresses, (just pretend dresses begins with p for the sake of the poetry!)to survey the situation and decide upon whether or not the outcome would be beneficial or not, for the vatican treasury (which pays for Wednesday night at the imfamous 'kindergarten').

Other Comments by TouchedbytheBishop

43. Comment #318564 by chinnus on January 13, 2009 at 3:15 pm

In fairness, if Christians actually followed the teachings of Christ, things'd be a little different. "There is only one law: love thy neighbour as thy self", admittedly the word neighbour is a little vague and probably only includes your immediate community, but it's a nice turn of phrase, whatever one of those is, but it does seem to preclude dogma on homosexuality etc - all of which is in the letters from St Paul, the whining bastard.

Anyhoo. . . it's all rubbish.

Other Comments by chinnus

44. Comment #318587 by Philster61 on January 13, 2009 at 3:44 pm

I had a vision of Mary who told me she was a virgin. She said that Gay marriage,abortion,stem cell research was sanctioned by God himself.No seriously I really did,I wonder if the Catholic Church would agree?

Other Comments by Philster61

45. Comment #318595 by Rawhard Dickins on January 13, 2009 at 3:57 pm

No one expects The Holy Office of the Inquisition!

Other Comments by Rawhard Dickins

46. Comment #318598 by Fuller on January 13, 2009 at 3:59 pm

Catholics who claim they have seen the Virgin Mary will be forced to remain silent about the apparitions until a team of psychologists, theologians, priests and exorcists have fully investigated their claims under new Vatican guidelines aimed at stamping out false claims of miracles.

So that SHOULD mean that we never hear of any claims of miracles again.

Other Comments by Fuller

47. Comment #318621 by notsobad on January 13, 2009 at 4:41 pm

theologians, priests and exorcists

Hey, what about the alchemists?

Other Comments by notsobad

48. Comment #318622 by jesusmasterbated on January 13, 2009 at 4:41 pm

"the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly the Holy Office of the Inquisition"

i wonder why they felt the need to change the name?

Other Comments by jesusmasterbated

49. Comment #318623 by gcujimmy on January 13, 2009 at 4:44 pm