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Is Oklahoma Investigating Richard Dawkins' Free Speech?
by Greg Lukianoff
In a case that harkens back to the old-timey censorship of yesteryear, it appears that the Oklahoma legislature is pulling out the stops to oppose the University of Oklahoma's decision to host the Oxford evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins on its campus. Dawkins was invited to speak at an event celebrating the 150th anniversary of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.
In a move sure to score political points with some constituents, Oklahoma representative Todd Thomsen proposed not one but two resolutions condemning Dawkins and asking the University to disinvite him. One of the resolutions reads:
Despite the sound and fury, Dawkins went ahead as scheduled on March 6, packing in an audience of several thousands. Case closed, right?
Not so fast.
I have received indication from numerous sources that the Oklahoma legislature is pressing ahead with an investigation of the event, probably to divine if any state funds were used. Dawkins, for his part, adamantly denies accepting a single cent for the speech. He specifically waived his normal honorarium, because this would be a mainly student audience. Even if he had taken money, however, the University department that invited Dawkins would have been perfectly within its rights to pay him. If this investigation is indeed taking place, what the state legislature needs to understand is that in court cases dating back to the days of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, even investigating clearly protected speech on the basis of its viewpoint violates the First Amendment.
Think about it: If every time a student or faculty member invited, say, Rick Warren to speak on campus, they knew they would be subjected to a thorough and time-consuming investigation by state officials, you can all but guarantee that schools across the country would think twice before inviting Rick Warren. This would be a great way for state legislatures to chill speech they dislike without ever having to find the speaker guilty of a single thing. Talk about your un-American activities.
Given the fact the legislature clearly is concerned with nothing other than Dawkins' viewpoint, such an investigation is improper and should end immediately.
I wrote the president of the University of Oklahoma Thursday afternoon along with Paul B. Bell, Jr., Dean, College of Arts and Sciences and Vice Provost for Instruction; William J. Matthews, Chair, Department of Zoology; Gordon E. Uno, Chair, Department of Botany and Microbiology; and George B. Richter-Addo, Chair, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry to ask if this investigation was indeed going forward. I hope someone there will clarify the situation as soon as possible. Boren wrote back yesterday with a non-responsive response, saying only that he is passing along my request for information as an open records request.
And before I begin to receive the hate mail that will inevitably pile in from the various religious groups that have been most opposed to Dawkins' speech, I ask only one thing: Before you write, please check out my record (and that of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, of which I am President) of defending the freedom of speech and association of Christian groups across the country.
While I'm not personally religious, FIRE and I have proudly defended the freedoms of hundreds of evangelical Christian groups over the years, most recently a Christian group at Wright State University that was told that it http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/10276.html could not "discriminate" against non-Christians in their leadership (an argument that you will find is bizarrely common on college campuses). Anyone who wishes to have their own freedom of speech and association rights respected should make a practice of respecting the freedom of speech of others. People have every right to protest Dawkins, to write angry letters, and to argue against his beliefs. But when you start a campaign to exclude a speaker with whom you disagree, or seek to use the power of the legislative branch to investigate perfectly lawful and protected expressive activity, you undermine the foundation of the very same rights that entitle you to your opinions in the first place.
President Boren, can you please clarify what's going on at your school?
Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights.
For more information, go to:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff
In a move sure to score political points with some constituents, Oklahoma representative Todd Thomsen proposed not one but two resolutions condemning Dawkins and asking the University to disinvite him. One of the resolutions reads:
A Resolution expressing disapproval of the actions of the University of Oklahoma to indoctrinate students in the theory of evolution; opposing the invitation to Richard Dawkins to speak on campus; and directing distribution.
WHEREAS, the University of Oklahoma is a publicly funded institution which should be open to all ideas and should train students in all disciplines of study and research and to use independent thinking and free inquiry, not indoctrinate
students in one-sided study and thinking; and
WHEREAS, the Department of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma has, as evidenced on the departmental homepage, been framing the Darwinian theory of evolution as doctrinal dogmatism rather than a hypothetical construction within the disciplines of the sciences; and
WHEREAS, not only has the Department of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma been engaged in one-sided indoctrination of an unproven and unpopular theory but has made an effort to brand all thinking in dissent of this theory as anti-intellectual and backward rather than nurturing such free thinking and allowing a free discussion of all ideas which is the primary purpose of a university; and
WHEREAS, the University of Oklahoma has planned a year-long celebration of the 200th birthday of Charles Darwin and the 150th anniversary of Darwin's controversial theory of evolution, called the "Darwin 2009 Project", which includes a series of lectures, public speakers, and a course on the history of evolution; and
WHEREAS, the University of Oklahoma, as a part of the Darwin 2009 Project, has invited as a public speaker on campus, Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, whose published opinions, as represented in his 2006 book "The God Delusion", and public statements on the theory of evolution demonstrate an intolerance for cultural diversity and diversity of thinking and are views that are not shared and are not representative of the thinking of a majority of the citizens of Oklahoma; and
WHEREAS, the invitation for Richard Dawkins to speak on the campus of the University of Oklahoma on Friday, March 6, 2009, will only serve to further the indoctrination engaged in by the Department of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma by presenting a biased philosophy on the theory of evolution to the exclusion of all other divergent considerations rather than teaching a scientific concept.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED BY THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES OF THE 1ST SESSION OF THE 52ND OKLAHOMA LEGISLATURE:
THAT the Oklahoma House of Representatives hereby expresses its disapproval of the current indoctrination of the Darwinian theory of evolution at the University of Oklahoma and further requests that an open, dignified, and fair discussion of this idea and all other ideas be engaged in on campus which is the approach that a public institution should be engaged in and which represents the desire and interest of the citizens of Oklahoma.
THAT the Oklahoma House of Representative strongly opposes the invitation to speak on the campus of the University of Oklahoma to Richard Dawkins of Oxford University, whose published statements on the theory of evolution and opinion about those who do not believe in the theory are contrary and offensive to the views and opinions of most citizens of Oklahoma.
THAT a copy of this resolution be transmitted to the President of the University of Oklahoma, the Dean of the College of Arts and Science at the University of Oklahoma, and the Chair of the Department of Zoology at the University of Oklahoma.
Despite the sound and fury, Dawkins went ahead as scheduled on March 6, packing in an audience of several thousands. Case closed, right?
Not so fast.
I have received indication from numerous sources that the Oklahoma legislature is pressing ahead with an investigation of the event, probably to divine if any state funds were used. Dawkins, for his part, adamantly denies accepting a single cent for the speech. He specifically waived his normal honorarium, because this would be a mainly student audience. Even if he had taken money, however, the University department that invited Dawkins would have been perfectly within its rights to pay him. If this investigation is indeed taking place, what the state legislature needs to understand is that in court cases dating back to the days of the House Committee on Un-American Activities, even investigating clearly protected speech on the basis of its viewpoint violates the First Amendment.
Think about it: If every time a student or faculty member invited, say, Rick Warren to speak on campus, they knew they would be subjected to a thorough and time-consuming investigation by state officials, you can all but guarantee that schools across the country would think twice before inviting Rick Warren. This would be a great way for state legislatures to chill speech they dislike without ever having to find the speaker guilty of a single thing. Talk about your un-American activities.
Given the fact the legislature clearly is concerned with nothing other than Dawkins' viewpoint, such an investigation is improper and should end immediately.
I wrote the president of the University of Oklahoma Thursday afternoon along with Paul B. Bell, Jr., Dean, College of Arts and Sciences and Vice Provost for Instruction; William J. Matthews, Chair, Department of Zoology; Gordon E. Uno, Chair, Department of Botany and Microbiology; and George B. Richter-Addo, Chair, Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry to ask if this investigation was indeed going forward. I hope someone there will clarify the situation as soon as possible. Boren wrote back yesterday with a non-responsive response, saying only that he is passing along my request for information as an open records request.
And before I begin to receive the hate mail that will inevitably pile in from the various religious groups that have been most opposed to Dawkins' speech, I ask only one thing: Before you write, please check out my record (and that of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education, of which I am President) of defending the freedom of speech and association of Christian groups across the country.
While I'm not personally religious, FIRE and I have proudly defended the freedoms of hundreds of evangelical Christian groups over the years, most recently a Christian group at Wright State University that was told that it http://www.thefire.org/index.php/article/10276.html could not "discriminate" against non-Christians in their leadership (an argument that you will find is bizarrely common on college campuses). Anyone who wishes to have their own freedom of speech and association rights respected should make a practice of respecting the freedom of speech of others. People have every right to protest Dawkins, to write angry letters, and to argue against his beliefs. But when you start a campaign to exclude a speaker with whom you disagree, or seek to use the power of the legislative branch to investigate perfectly lawful and protected expressive activity, you undermine the foundation of the very same rights that entitle you to your opinions in the first place.
President Boren, can you please clarify what's going on at your school?
Greg Lukianoff is the president of the Foundation for Individual Rights.
For more information, go to:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/greg-lukianoff
Comments 1 - 50 of 322 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #352165 by rev on March 14, 2009 at 3:56 pm
ill second thatOther Comments by rev
3. Comment #352166 by robotaholic on March 14, 2009 at 3:57 pm
I live in Oklahoma and I'm all for Richard Dawkins coming anytime! Richard, you are SO welcome here anytime! Please come back. These people may be a majority right now but they don't represent all of us here. That's for sure. Other Comments by robotaholic
4. Comment #352168 by heafnerj on March 14, 2009 at 4:00 pm
What better example of direct evidence that there are sociopolitical influences in this country, even in our government, that not only abhor education, but actively seek to undermine it. Textbook authors can't make this stuff up! My students will enjoy seeing this. Other Comments by heafnerj
5. Comment #352169 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 4:04 pm
But when you start a campaign to exclude a speaker with whom you disagree, or seek to use the power of the legislative branch to investigate perfectly lawful and protected expressive activity, you undermine the foundation of the very same rights that entitle you to your opinions in the first place.Private citizens can protest a speaker and ask that an invitation be withdrawn. But, when it's the government involved, it's a violation of freedom of speech. Government means coercion or the threat of coercion. As for state funds, I'd expect there to be state funds somewhere. Did Dawkins pay for the lights and the security? I don't know.
Other Comments by MelM
6. Comment #352171 by DoctorE on March 14, 2009 at 4:06 pm
This is simply a sign of desperation from the Jeebus freaks, they know religion is going down.
If they had real faith they would pray to their imaginary mass murderer in the sky to fix things, that "omnipotent" freak that cant even take care of his own ass (Because he does not exist) :O
Other Comments by DoctorE
7. Comment #352173 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 4:15 pm
Talk about your un-American activitiesYes! Yes! The "Christian Nation" movement is anti-reason, anti-science, anti-Western Civ., and un-American. One of the founders fantastic achievements was to pretty much kick religion out of the government--maybe for the 1st time in history. This fanatic movement represents the coming of the complete end to the country build by the founders.
There are a few people who make the un-American identification, but not enough.
Other Comments by MelM
8. Comment #352181 by Roaddogg on March 14, 2009 at 4:33 pm
I'm going to assume the people making up the Oklahoma legislature have no lives...
You'd think they'd have better things to do
Other Comments by Roaddogg
9. Comment #352182 by NewEnglandBob on March 14, 2009 at 4:34 pm
The world has not gone mad, just the ignorant people who live in Oklahoma who elect those morons to their legislature.I guess they are too ignorant AND too stupid to see how much they are humiliating themselves as most of the rest of the civilized world laughs at them.
Other Comments by NewEnglandBob
10. Comment #352183 by BJPentecost on March 14, 2009 at 4:41 pm
"I have received indication from numerous sources that the Oklahoma legislature is pressing ahead with an investigation of the event, probably to divine if any state funds were used."I wonder if they would be going to this ludicrous extreme had it been Fred Phelps or Rick Warren instead of Richard Dawkins.
Other Comments by BJPentecost
11. Comment #352186 by eclampusvitus on March 14, 2009 at 5:00 pm
One of the minor, yet important, results of this tyrannical madness must be to de-seat Rep. Thomsen (sp?) in the next election.I hold it to the responsibility of our Oklahoma realists to remind us of his primary and general election opponents who must almost necessarily possess normal brains, and who we can certainly support with thousands of modest contributions.
This really goes beyond disagreement, this is a definite step toward religious totalitarianism in the USA, and must be thwarted root, tree, and branch.
ECV
Other Comments by eclampusvitus
12. Comment #352187 by Godfree Gordon on March 14, 2009 at 5:02 pm
Mr Dawkins you are also more than welcome in Adelaide, South Australia. Other Comments by Godfree Gordon
13. Comment #352189 by Crazycharlie on March 14, 2009 at 5:09 pm
WHEREAS, Some Oklahoma state representatives can't find a better use for taxpayer dollars. WHEREAS, It's easy to score political points by trying to stop a world renowned biologist from speaking at a university of all places. WHEREAS, Representative Todd Thomsen is a embarrassment to the state of Oklahoma. Let it be resolved that Todd Thomsen can go fuck off. Other Comments by Crazycharlie
14. Comment #352191 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I would say Oklahoma is edging close to losing its qualification to host scientific conferences.Other Comments by MelM
15. Comment #352192 by Flapjack on March 14, 2009 at 5:24 pm
Mr Thompson: Re-arrange the following words into a well known sentance: Door, bolted, horse, after, shutting, has, the. And my syntax is slightly less tortured than yours. Other Comments by Flapjack
16. Comment #352193 by Eshto on March 14, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I was with it up until the end.Religious student groups shouldn't be attacked or censored, but they also shouldn't get public funding. They do "discriminate" - um, and why are we putting that in quotes? They discriminate. DISCRIMINATE. They shouldn't get funding.
Oh well, it's not like that little appeal will stop the fundies from hating the author anyway. Nice try though.
Other Comments by Eshto
17. Comment #352195 by SilentMike on March 14, 2009 at 5:31 pm
Arg that is so stupid. I had a message all ready but I can't. This is stupid stupid stupid. That's all.Other Comments by SilentMike
18. Comment #352196 by rod-the-farmer on March 14, 2009 at 5:50 pm
I agree with MelM. Is there someone in Oklahoma who can look up any impending or proposed conferences to see if any might be affected by the apparent objection to science and free speech ? I suspect a few words in the right ears will cause the same effect as has recently happened in Louisiana, where the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology chose to have their 2011 conference in Utah rather than Louisiana. I don;t think they had actually BOOKED their event, but at least LA was under consideration. Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
19. Comment #352198 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 6:06 pm
I don't think student organizations should get public funding; it's a leash held by the funders and ultimately by the legislative reprsentatives of the basic funders, which are the tax payers. A legislature has the responsibility to see that the money it spends is spent wisely but "wisely" will vary all over the map. So, expect strings. My solution to this mess is to allow (by law) 1st amendment freedom of speech on campuses--no speech codes and no funding. However, no tax funded school is free of the legislature, so, be ready for controls from people who won't tolerate a campus that isn't Jesus friendly.Other Comments by MelM
20. Comment #352199 by Anarcho-Syndicalist on March 14, 2009 at 6:14 pm
I feel ashamed to be lumped into the same category as these people because of 'national' affinity. DAMN IT!! I WAS JUST BORN HERE, I DIDN'T CHOOSE MY NEIGHBORS!!! Yet under the constitutional framework of the u.s. govt., if this DOES pass, it's pretty much a checks and balances free zone, that gives a free pass to the fundies in the country that they can pass go AND collect 200 dollars with any legislation they want, at least in oklahoma Other Comments by Anarcho-Syndicalist
21. Comment #352200 by Fuzzy Duck on March 14, 2009 at 6:26 pm
People tolerate so much bigotry, intolerance, and foolishness, but not reason? I hate to use the phrase, but isn't this issue a bit "anti-American"? Other Comments by Fuzzy Duck
22. Comment #352201 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 6:27 pm
My opinion of Oklahoma went way up because of OU and the things Dawkins said about it. It's also important to remember that the resolutions were not passed by the legislature--I don't think they were even brought up for a vote. So, if there is an investigation of Dawkins appearance, I'll be very disappointed.Has anyone heard how his speech went in Nebraska?
Other Comments by MelM
23. Comment #352203 by black wolf on March 14, 2009 at 6:33 pm
If they think that their rights should not be equally valid for someone with an opposing viewpoint, no matter how offensive they may find it, then they fulfill part of the definition of sociopathy, possibly a narcisstic personality disorder.When sociopaths associate and form organizations, they become fascist parties.
Other Comments by black wolf
25. Comment #352208 by Russell Blackford on March 14, 2009 at 6:55 pm
Assuming that Lukianoff is not jumping at shadows and that this "investigation" is really going to take place, or is even being considered, it's an outrageous abuse of government power. Lukianoff seems like a sensible guy, not a crackpot, so we have to take this seriously.If it's really happening, or under consideration, well, it's the sort of thing you'd expect from a totalitarian society, not from a Western democracy.
Other Comments by Russell Blackford
26. Comment #352210 by vhutchison on March 14, 2009 at 7:00 pm
As a member of the OU community, I was very pleased with the large and very enthusiastic crowd that turned out for Dawkins' lecture. As a founder and former President of Oklahomans for Excellence in Science Education (OESE, http://www.oklascience.org ), I am most grateful for the $5000 donation to OESE from his foundation that Dawkins announced in his introductory comments; these funds will help us in our many activities (e.g., workshops for teachers on how to teach evolution).Rep. Thomsen, in calling for speakers with opposite views to those of Dawkins, was ignorant (as he is of many things) of the appearance during the ten previous days of three major talks by prominent members of the creationist Discovery Institute (DI) - William Dembski, John West and Casey Luskin. All gave presentations on campus sponsored by the student IDEA Club, which is eligible for funds from the university. The DI speakers also acknowledged support from Trinity Baptist Church. The student 'Campus Pursuit Ministry' is nothing more than a ministry of Trinity and many (most?) members of the IDEA group are associated with the church. Thus, it is clear that OU is open to speakers of many persuasions, as a true university must be.
Student groups such as the Center for Inquiry and Darwin Club are active in countering creationist nonsense of the IDEA Club and others opposed to true science. The statement on evolution by the Department of Zoology is not unlike most biology departments in the U.S., including the schools within the Big 12 Conference.
Thanks again Professor Dawkins for the important role you played in assisting Oklahoma!
Other Comments by vhutchison
27. Comment #352214 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 7:11 pm
27. Comment #352210 by vhutchison,As is, the link doesn't work. If I use copy/paste in a new window however, it works. Maybe leaving some space around the link would help.
Other Comments by MelM
28. Comment #352216 by vhutchison on March 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Sorry, tried both suggestions and still link doesn't work - just enter the URL to get the site.Other Comments by vhutchison
29. Comment #352218 by prettygoodformonkeys on March 14, 2009 at 7:21 pm
Max of EarlobesThe world's gone madThey've always been mad, this is just what happens when they are smoked out of their hidey-holes by open debate. I can't help thinking that people coming out is what's causing it, if not the activity of RD himself.
This is all for the good.
Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys
30. Comment #352220 by MaxD on March 14, 2009 at 7:23 pm
Quine,
Scary publicity though.
Other Comments by MaxD
31. Comment #352221 by archfarchnad on March 14, 2009 at 7:26 pm
But when you start a campaign to exclude a speaker with whom you disagree, or seek to use the power of the legislative branch to investigate perfectly lawful and protected expressive activity, you undermine the foundation of the very same rights that entitle you to your opinions in the first place.
No one can argue with that Lukianoff, which is why I insist everyone should be skeptical of any argument that insists "This is it - that's the absolute truth! You can't refute it!"; if not only because all that hot air and bluster only signifies that whoever is using that strategy, albeit in all their fervour, actually has no argument and their only using emotional pleas to win favours.
Other Comments by archfarchnad
32. Comment #352222 by Thor25 on March 14, 2009 at 7:27 pm
RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING. :D Other Comments by Thor25
33. Comment #352224 by Bernstein on March 14, 2009 at 7:34 pm
WHEREAS, the University of Oklahoma is a publicly funded institution which should be open to all ideas and should train students in all disciplines of study and research and to use independent thinking and free inquiry...
This is perhaps the one thing that all non-Western universities, without exception, lack that will forever keep them behind the West when it comes to education. If the West lets this disease creep in even a few of its institutions of higher learning, there will soon be no place left in the world where one can get a real education. And we all know what that will mean.
Other Comments by Bernstein
34. Comment #352229 by Rodger T on March 14, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Whereas,Todd Thomsen is full of shit.probably to divine if any state funds were used.L O L
Other Comments by Rodger T
35. Comment #352232 by doubtingfoo on March 14, 2009 at 8:00 pm
Since when is a university not free to invite whomever it pleases to come and speak? Oh, wait, I remember: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/sep/25/iran.usa Other Comments by doubtingfoo
36. Comment #352233 by ljirving on March 14, 2009 at 8:00 pm
BernsteinThis is perhaps the one thing that all non-Western universities, without exception, lack that will forever keep them behind the West when it comes to education.
I think this is perhaps a somewhat narrow view - I live and work as a research scientist in Japan, which has produced a huge number of Nobel laureates, and is still one of the most technologically advanced countries in the world. Likewise, many of the small nations here are similarly open minded and advanced, and I would say within 20 years or so, China will have arrived in terms of science and technology.
Other Comments by ljirving
37. Comment #352236 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 8:02 pm
The two resolutions, even if not passed, are intimidation anyway. I don't imagine any university president wants to see a powerful legislator on his case. "If Dawkins or some other person the legislator hates, is invited again, maybe the whole legislature will come at me. Makes me nervous."The University has been warned!
Other Comments by MelM
38. Comment #352241 by hoops mccann on March 14, 2009 at 8:15 pm
"Earth people are stupid!"
- Ed Wood
Other Comments by hoops mccann
39. Comment #352244 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 8:35 pm
36. Comment #352232 by doubtingfoo,Columbia University is a private university. Ahmadinejad (legally in the U.S.) was invited to speak and he did so. That doesn't mean that people had to like it and I don't see anything in the article about any resolutions from the state or federal governments. Since Ahmadinejad is a "Death to America" and "World Jihad" guy (and a religious nut), the introdution by the university president was not out of line at all--I saw nothing about a punch or something being thrown which would have been out of line and illegal. And, it's perfectly within the rights of outsiders to complain about the invitation. I would not have invited such a man, but Columbia did so. Seems to me, this is a model of how freedom of speech should work--no legislatures and no thugs breaking up the speech. If Dawkins had been treated this well, I'd have no complaints on freedom of speech grounds.
Other Comments by MelM
40. Comment #352249 by SamKiddoGordon on March 14, 2009 at 9:13 pm
And we wondered why Richard would want to go to OK? Nothing like stirring up a little trouble to get some free press. Its excellent, lets show some light on the creotards. Other Comments by SamKiddoGordon
41. Comment #352259 by A on March 14, 2009 at 10:05 pm
Laughably desperate moves by the superstitious.Other Comments by A
42. Comment #352261 by MelM on March 14, 2009 at 10:07 pm
IMO, it's best to speak to the enemy rather than friends. For example, in a debate, it's your opponent's supporters that you want to reach. Maybe 20% should be friends that will clap for your points; this lets your opponent's supporters know that there really are people who agree with your position.I note also what an introducer at a university debate said recently: "The debates are more popular than the lectures." Notice how both sides show up. And, the thing is a bit safer than a lecture because you're less likely to be victimized by your own ignorance.
One problem I've seen in debates with nutters is the 15min opening speech. These religious guys can disgorge dozens of fallacies in 15min and even go into preaching mode (good for turning off their supporters minds I suppose); they bury the debate in bullshit. It's much easier to toss twisted thoughts on the table than for the atheist to pick them up and deal with them. The atheist is bound to leave dozens of theist claims on the table unanswered. Not good. A 5min opening please--at least in many cases.
Anyway, I think going to the "Bible Belt" is a good move for Dawkins.
Other Comments by MelM
43. Comment #352267 by rugby on March 14, 2009 at 11:26 pm
I have young nephews and nieces now, and the normal thing for them when they become over tired is to go absolutely bezerk in one last desperated bout of trying to prove they're not tired before being forced to bed.The creationist clique seems to be doing the same vacant eyed noise making before running out of puff and being put to sleep.
I have to teach at private schools to make a living, and i'm always stunned at the amount of otherwise very religious people who really hate creationism.
It has become a very small, but unfortunately very vocal (and in some instances still powerful) minority. But I really can't see it lasting much past the next fifty years. Remember, even religious nuts (now there's a tautology!) don't think the universe revolves around the earth.
It really is pathetic.
Other Comments by rugby
44. Comment #352271 by squeegee on March 15, 2009 at 12:32 am
Let this Thomsen character complain all he wants, he's ultimately fanning the fire that will destroy his and his ilk's own delusional world view.
I can't make up my mind whether it's a comedy or a tragedy that a group of people could waste a precious democratic vote on a fuckwit like this.
I also second Godfree Gordons comment that Richard Dawkins is more than welcome in Adelaide Australia.
Other Comments by squeegee
45. Comment #352272 by Paine on March 15, 2009 at 12:44 am
BernsteinThis is perhaps the one thing that all non-Western universities, without exception, lack that will forever keep them behind the West when it comes to education.
Im surprised to see such an ignorant and stupid assertion on a website dedicated to the scientific temper.
ALL non-Western Universities, without exception, lack free inquiry and independent thinking? Really? And how have you verified this? I'd love to hear!
Do you have any evidence to back up such a categorical proclamation or does it rest purely on your ignorance and idiotic stereotyping.
Other Comments by Paine
46. Comment #352274 by Sue G on March 15, 2009 at 1:10 am
What a ridiculous waste of time and taxpayers' money. This is supposed to score political points? Good grief.
My favourite phrase in that piece of resolution is "unpopular theory". Don't you just love how these folks think!
Other Comments by Sue G
47. Comment #352280 by JemyM on March 15, 2009 at 1:51 am
I add this on my pile of evidence against Christianity.A true agenda survive by simply making sense and gain followers without effort. A false agenda must rely on threats, prohibition and violence.
Other Comments by JemyM
48. Comment #352293 by DoctorE on March 15, 2009 at 3:53 am
The religious.. you know how they work..
Secret Files of the Inquisition
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=75563
Other Comments by DoctorE
49. Comment #352294 by Raiko on March 15, 2009 at 3:54 am
Do you have any evidence to back up such a categorical proclamation or does it rest purely on your ignorance and idiotic stereotyping.
Paine, I'd have asked the same, but we're talking to Bernstein, so this shouldn't even come as a surprise.
I was going to note down right here who knows better than to make a statement as ignorant as Bernstein's, but 'people who read newspapers' and 'people who know anything about non-Western education' - that doesn't quite hit it. People 'with general knowledge' or 'any interest in the world' is a bit more likely. In reality, though, I have no idea what kind of ignoramus you have to be to throw eastern education into a sack, label it - and ignore everything some of the countries included have achieved and are achieving.
Other Comments by Raiko
50. Comment #352295 by Bernstein on March 15, 2009 at 4:00 am
Comment #352272 by Paine
ALL non-Western Universities, without exception, lack free inquiry and independent thinking? Really? And how have you verified this? I'd love to hear!
Do you have any evidence to back up such a categorical proclamation or does it rest purely on your ignorance and idiotic stereotyping.
Ask any non-Western kid if they'd prefer to study in any university in their own country over one in the West. You can do a poll if you like. If it wasn't for people like you, the West would be a whole lot richer and better off, educationally, than it is. The West can charge anything to educate non-Westerners and they'd still pay (either from their own pockets or through their governments). But I have to agree, non-Westerners are slowly catching up; but mainly because the West is getting more and more stupid. Some professor friends of mine complain about the poor standard of some of these non-Western kids showing up (to do their PhDs even). I tell them it's their fault. If they would only get their institutions to charge more, these resource-rich non-Western governments wouldn't be sending just about anyone who applies but only their best. And you can bet your life these foreign governments would still spend every last cent they originally intended to on this. You know why? Because it's only in the West where you can truly free your mind. Anywhere else in the world, there are just too many social, cultural and political constraints. Don't take free inquiry and independent thinking for granted. It's a privilege you just happen to enjoy.
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1. Comment #352163 by Max of Earlobes on March 14, 2009 at 3:53 pm
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