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Thursday, December 7, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document A man who believes in Darwin as fervently as he hates God

by Rod Liddle / The Spectator

For those who don't feel like reading another hit piece, here's a quick quote from below to get the gist of it:

"Like all scientific theories, Darwinism will be amended — perhaps beyond recognition. Perhaps it will be discarded entirely. Either way, disavowing a divine being because it doesn't quite fit in with another here-today-gone-tomorrow theory seems a tad peremptory."

I sure hope the "here-today-gone-tomorrow theory" of gravity doesn't get any ideas. -Josh.

Reposted from:
http://www.spectator.co.uk

In the downstairs loo of Richard Dawkins's house in Oxford there's a framed award from the Royal Society; to remind visitors, or maybe Richard himself, that here lives a man of some purpose, some gravitas and intellectual clout. The Faraday prize is given to those who communicate science with brilliance and verve to the scientifically ignorant, thick general public. Richard has done a lot of that, ever since The Selfish Gene in 1976. It is his job these days; he holds the Simonyi chair in the public understanding of science at Oxford University. His latest wife, the actress Lalla Ward, has done her bit too, helping out various bereft timelords in Dr Who.

Richard himself is a bit of a timelord, if you like. A scientist forever battling an intractable foe — the daleks of religion. He is probably more famous these days for kicking God around than for the hard science of his earlier work (a fact he accepts, with some misgivings); he is our most belligerent and brilliant atheist. Show him a deity — Jehovah, Allah, Sat Guru, whoever — and he will stand up straight and nut it right between the eyes. He rarely yields, as I discovered when I interviewed him for Channel 4.

His latest book does all this and more. It is the (surprise) publishing success of the year and easily outsells those awful football autobiographies (170,660 so far). It is a book of rhetoric rather than science. The God Delusion is, like all the best books, riven with beguiling contradictions, full of interesting holes into which one can clamber and find oneself instantly transported to an alternative universe. It is Dawkins's broadside against God and those who are stupid enough to believe in him, or her, or it. A book against belief written with the fervour of one who believes utterly in non-belief. A book which insists that science must be a humble undertaking but which — driven by the logic of his argument — contains Dawkins's own abbrievated version of the Ten Commandments (for which thanks, mate). A book that, for a disinterested non-believer, shows a simple and touching faith in the scientific creed of Darwinism — which theory, only 147 years after its inception, is already looking rather flawed and careworn. And finally, as a neat little irony, a book that will trouser its author an enormous sackload of dosh, not because it is beautifully written and at times exquisitely argued, but because it is about that thing which the author believes must be banished — God.

The author is, as ever, affable, eloquent and charming. He settles into his armchair and immediately tells me, to my surprise, about the religious renewal he experienced when he was 14.

'I think it was Elvis. I mean, I should have known better because of course practically all Americans of that class are religious maniacs. But when I discovered that Elvis was religious I went back on to religion for a bit.'

It didn't last long; the man who gave the world 'Heartbreak Hotel' was soon replaced, in Richard's canon, by the man who gave us The Origin of Species. If Elvis rocked, Darwin rocked more. He rocks still, apparently. And thence there devolved along the years an insuperable belief in atheism.

'There seems to be a tension,' I venture, 'between what I suspect you believe — that there is no God — and what science will allow you to say: that it's extremely improbable that there is a God.'

'Right. I don't think you can disprove God. But I don't think you can disprove God as you can't disprove fairies and unicorns. It's a kind of scientific purism that makes me say I can't be an absolute 100 per cent atheist.'

'But, to read your book, you are 100 per cent, aren't you?'

'No. Some of my friends and colleagues would say that [for them] it's 100 per cent.'

Well, I counter, having read the book: it's 100 per cent for you, too; it burns through on every page. Otherwise the acres of rhetoric would have been displaced by pure, disinterested science.

'I think there is some truth in that. I think there are times when one has to resort to rhetoric. For a lot of people, religion is a question of feeling rather than rationality.'

But rhetoric is a device which must necessarily be in opposition to scientific discourse; in other words, Dawkins appropriates the tools of the believer when he feels that it is expedient to do so — and hang the science. But still, let's move on. By far the weakest part of The God Delusion is when Dawkins attempts to explain why atheistic regimes have far outdone religious regimes in their murderousness, their inhumanity. I asked Dawkins when he would leave the god- botherers alone, and he responded by saying, 'When they leave the rest of the world alone. When they leave children alone, stop fighting each other and endangering the rest of us.' Which is fair enough, but the record of those regimes which presciently forsook religion is far, far worse.

'Oh,' he says. 'I think that it is incidental that Stalin was an atheist. I don't think that Hitler was. Stalin did his deeds in the name of a kind of Marxism, and you can argue as to whether that's a religion or not.'

Isn't that the point, I suggest. That with one set of values removed, another will always fill its place? That if you remove religion, there is a gap which will always be filled — and usually by something worse than belief in a deity? Are we ever worse than when we feel ourselves to be unconstrained masters of our domain, answerable to nobody but ourselves?

'I agree with you that I have not sufficiently explained that. This gap, this absence — it could be a psychological weakness of the human mind. I did have one chapter at the end, but I think I didn't do it justice, from your point of view. If I were to, then I wouldn't have any trouble filling it — it might be science, it might be human love. Relationships, something like that.'

Relationships indeed. Richard has handily provided a new bunch of commandments to replace those which Moses handed down to the rest of us. But they are terribly ephemeral things, unintentionally hilarious — the sort of stuff that might be dreamed up by Polly Toynbee after someone had slipped an ecstasy tablet in her San Pellegrino after a long day in the Guardian offices. 'Have an enjoyable sexual relationship with someone of either gender but try not to hurt anyone while doing so' — that sort of thing. They have no resonance, not the slightest suggestion that they might outlast even our current generation, never mind provide us with a template for 2,000 years. 'I'm astonished you think it a good thing, longevity,' Dawkins counters, 'You say that my commandments are here today and gone tomorrow — but that's a good thing and that's one of the points I am trying to make. That there is a steadily shifting moral zeitgeist.'

But all this leaves you with a sort of damp and most unconvincing historical relativism. By Dawkins's argument, the moral imperatives of 500 years ago were, de facto, right then — and wrong now. In the end, it leaves you without a real sense of right and wrong, merely a constantly shifting plane — and thus open to the malefactions of a Hitler or a Stalin or a Mao or a Pol Pot. But of course, as I concede to Dawkins, the simple fact that Christianity has given us a moral code which has, to an extent, lasted 2,000 years is no reason to believe in a divinity. It is, though, a very valid reason to doubt ourselves — as the historical evidence would attest.

Which brings me to the difficult stuff — and Darwinism. It is a creed to which Dawkins cleaves with the fervour of the fundamentalist, the true believer. And it is the real chink in his armour. For example, because Darwin showed us that life forms progress from the simple to the complex over hundreds of thousands of years of gradual modification, it therefore follows (according to Dawkins) that there cannot have been a divine being present before the amoebae swam in those soupy oceans at Earth's toddler stage — because he would have had to be more complex than those organisms which followed him. And that doesn't fit with the theory. But what if the theory, in its entirety, doesn't hold — as Dawkins concedes might be possible? Even now, a century and a half after Darwin wrote The Origin of Species, the notion of gradual, cumulative change in every case is being challenged (most recently by the evo-devo school, which believes that sudden change can occur within species within a single generation). Like all scientific theories, Darwinism will be amended — perhaps beyond recognition. Perhaps it will be discarded entirely. Either way, disavowing a divine being because it doesn't quite fit in with another here-today-gone-tomorrow theory seems a tad peremptory. The question Dawkins can never satisfactorily answer is: what if Darwin was wrong? And yet, as a scientist, he must be aware that the likelihood is that Darwin was wrong here or there. In which case, where does that leave his philosophical argument?

And then there is this. For Richard Dawkins, the human being is a creature propelled by the blind impetus of his or her genes. Everything we do is, at root, guided by a cold mechanism designed to propagate the survival of these incalculably minute and ruthless constituents. There is nothing more. And yet Dawkins insists that as human beings we might uniquely overcome this mechanism. Why should we, alone among animals, be able to do so, to defy our genes? And how?

'I mean that it is the selfish gene, not the selfish individual,' Dawkins says.

Well, yes, sure; we talk about reciprocal altruism for a time. Clearly, though, Dawkins means that we can progress beyond even that. So what was it that gave us the ability mysteriously to overcome this implacable mechanism?

'Because we've got very big brains. I mean ...no other animal practises contraception, for example.'

'But,' I say to him, 'there is no reason why the complexity and size of our brains should lead us to do something which is precisely what our genes do not wish us to do, is there?' It would surely be the reverse: it is perfectly counter-Darwinian.

'Yes. But it happens to be true. Darwinian selection couldn't possibly ever have favoured contraception. That's simply a demonstration that it's possible to decide to do other noble things, like being nice....' Does that sound very scientific to you? It doesn't to me. It sounds horribly like a devout believer — a believer in non-belief, except when it comes to Darwinism — rather ineffectually attempting to dig himself out of a hole.

At the end, as we sip our coffee in this agreeable secular house, I ask Richard Dawkins if he has ever had a religious experience, i.e., something more profound than signing up to God because Elvis had done so before. 'No,' he says.

'What would convince you?'

He looks askance for a moment. 'Of a supernatural being?'

'Yep.'

'Well.' He has a think. 'I suppose a large-scale miracle which could not have been engineered by a conjuror. But I, um, find it hard to imagine exactly what that might be,' he concludes.

The question, I suspect, has never even occurred to him. It is one of those possibilities to which he is not — being human and fallible, and thus wedded to a certain train of thought and resistant to being diverged from it — wholly open.

Richard Dawkins's Commandments

1. Enjoy your own sex life (so long as it damages nobody else) and leave others to enjoy theirs in private whatever their inclinations, which are none of your business.

2. Do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of sex, race or (as far as possible) species.

3. Do not indoctrinate your children. Teach them how to think for themselves, how to evaluate science, and how to disagree with you.

4. Value the future of things on a timescale longer than your own.

The Trouble With Atheism is being shown on Channel 4 on 18 December.

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1. Comment #11793 by Kingasaurus on December 7, 2006 at 11:42 am

---''Well.' He has a think. 'I suppose a large-scale miracle which could not have been engineered by a conjuror. But I, um, find it hard to imagine exactly what that might be,' he concludes.

The question, I suspect, has never even occurred to him. It is one of those possibilities to which he is not — being human and fallible, and thus wedded to a certain train of thought and resistant to being diverged from it — wholly open.----

Couldn't disagree with this more. I am open to a large-scale miracle where god would supposedly reveal himself, that can't be faked or have some other mundane explanation. But the fact that these events don't occur in the real world is what helps send some people towards atheism.

The fact that scientific thinkers need to imagine possibilities where god would reveal himself unambiguously does not indicate the lack of openness in the minds of religious skeptics. It indicates a lack of verifiable evidence for god in the real world that can't be massaged by wishful thinking alone.

Why isn't the author more upset that god likes to remain hidden in these supposedly maddening ways, rather than blaming Dawkins for not playing along with the game?



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2. Comment #11797 by JaffaCake on December 7, 2006 at 12:09 pm

I do dislike it when people say things like "riven with beguiling contradictions" without actually highlighting one.

It is very frustrating to read that such poorly argued rubbish has been published in a decent magazine.

I look forward to the day when someone comes up with a good argument against the main points of the book; something worth reading.

It's not so much the God Delusion that shows holes in Religion, it's the lack of a coherent argument in reply.

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3. Comment #11800 by Thrall on December 7, 2006 at 12:28 pm

The fact that the author of this article has a hard time with "moral relativity throughout time" shows us a lot. Will your great-grandparents go to hell because they had slaves? Will your great-great-grandfather go to hell because he raped or killed his wife for cheating on him. These things were perfectly acceptable and legal at the time (marital rape was legal in the state of Utah, US until 1989.)

How can this not be seen as a shifting moral ambiguity?

This author also leads the reader down mental paths by quoting the first part of his questions, editing in his personal note, then gives dawkins response, to paint dawkins in the worst possible light. I think it's deceptive and a jerk thing to do.

And on the "surpassing our genes" (at the end of the interview) subject that Dawkins has addressed before (but apperently this guy didn't want to print Dawkins responses), I mean, doesn't that break down to Cultural Darwinism? Didn't we get thoughts and freetime by the invention of agriculture, which lead to time to think? Am I up in the night on this?

I can think for myself, and I think that I don't have the means to afford a child, so I use contraception. The species has no dire need to propogate anymore. Most of the birthrates are fairly high in most countries. Back when the Infant mortality rate was 90%, nobody was talking about contraception.

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4. Comment #11802 by Jiten on December 7, 2006 at 12:39 pm

 avatarHe's best ignored as he is a know-nothing,scientifically illiterate,dunderhead.

Dawkins shouldn't allow such fools into his house.

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5. Comment #11806 by robert s on December 7, 2006 at 12:47 pm

One might ask how long Darwinism has to be held to be true? Will Liddle be celebrating its accession to 'truth' in three years, or in 2,000 years time will his heirs be telling us that Darwinism is still too new to compete with the, by then 4,000 year-old truths of the Bible?

It's also funny that Liddle seems surer that Dawkins believes that there's no God than Dawkins himself does.

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6. Comment #11811 by ruth on December 7, 2006 at 12:59 pm

A characteristic trick: pretending to temporarily concede a point in order to smuggle in a "fact" that's patently false:
"[T]he simple fact that Christianity has given us a moral code which has, to an extent, lasted 2,000 years is no reason to believe in a divinity."
Christianity clearly has NOT given us a moral code that has lasted 2,000 years. How many violations and reinterpretations of this code will it take to show that it has almost nothing to do with how people behave? And here's another one:
"By far the weakest part of The God Delusion is when Dawkins attempts to explain why atheistic regimes have far outdone religious regimes in their murderousness, their inhumanity."
On what grounds can he confidently assert that atheistic regimes have outdone religious ones in murderousness and inhumanity?
I am amazed at reviewers' failure to intelligently address what I think is the book's major weakness: its slipshod treatment of the distinction between atheistic and religious despotism. Even when reviewers have noted this, they've never contributed any substance to the debate. I wish Carl Sagan were around to review it.

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7. Comment #11814 by alan_s on December 7, 2006 at 1:05 pm

Whilst I agree with a lot of the comments above, I agree with Liddle on one key point - that Darwinism is not absolute. I do so in the sense for example that Newton was correct up to a point about gravity, and Einstein extended that point further - now as we understand more about cosmology, Relativity is being modified too. Darwinism is a starting point for our understanding of how our species came to be, not the end and by the scientific method it is only natural we should find modifications, additions and amendments as the sum of our knowledge increases.

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8. Comment #11817 by Jared on December 7, 2006 at 1:08 pm

 avatarSorry if this double posts, I seem to have timed out while writing! And, in that vein, sorry for the essay...

I think it's quite funny how he says that Darwinism, "only 147 years after its inception, is already looking rather flawed and careworn," yet the best example he can give of how "cumulative change in every case is being challenged" (emphasis mine) is the "evo-devo school, which believes that sudden change can occur within species within a single generation." It shows that he has very little true understanding of evolution!

He's getting Darwinian evolution confused with that parody of it often dragged out in creationist circles: the slow, inflexible, "random" idea. He's also mistaken the disagreements between evolutionary scientists as somehow demonstrative of the failure of Darwinian theory rather than indicative of its further refinement and development. He seems to view science's unwillingness to stick to old "truths" when new evidence comes about as weakness rather than as the great thing about science that separates it from dogmatism. Perhaps this reveals the side on which Liddle is more comfortable living!

What he does not recognize is that, even IF the "evo-devo" school is true and change CAN happen rapidly, the animals who receive this change (and therefore the mutated genes that caused it) WILL NOT survive unless they have more success at reproducing than others of the same species.

We've all seen some pretty amazing "sudden" changes from one generation to the next. You need only think of mutations like polydactyly, humans born with "tails" or tons of extra body hair. Each of those things would be, in and of itself, a dramatic change in a short period of evolutionary time. It doesn't always take a slow rewriting of the genetic code for big changes to occur. The fact is that the deciding factor on whether these changes are "successful" or not is the very heart of Darwin's theory: natural selection! If any change (big, little, helpful, harmful, indifferent) doesn't out replicate non-mutated versions of itself, it either continues as an inert and "neutral" mutation (think different eye colors) or it gets out performed and, by sheer reproductive force, booted out of the gene pool. Even "neutral" mutations could, theoretically, have a time to shine if something in the outside world suddenly causes them to be favored. But these concepts just don't jive with Liddle's all-or-nothing "here today, gone tomorrow," conceptions of Darwin's theory.

It's quite funny how Liddle mocks any points on which Dawkins is "non-scientific," yet simultaneously mocks his off-the-cuff answers to questions for which there is no way of developing empirically testable methods (eg. the question of what would "replace" religion, were it to go). It's hard to create valid scientific answers to non-scientific questions! That's sort of the whole POINT of science!

Similarly, he acts as if his own wishy-washy ideas are somehow better. But at heart it's simply a misunderstanding of the science. The whole section where Liddle presupposes that humans being able to act "against" their genes would be counter-Darwinian ignores the simple fact that sometimes structures originally "intended" for one use get co-opted and put to quite different uses. I think Dawkins has several examples of this in "The Blind Watchmaker," which I don't have near me and therefore cannot reference. Off the top of my head, the multiple uses for tails comes to mind as a suitable example.

Were it true that our brains were evolved "for" going against genetically determined ideas, then of COURSE the actual act of going against genes would be "determined" in the way that Liddle presumes. But, since it is most likely that our brains evolved this way "for" other reasons, such as pattern recognition, decision making, storing of cultural knowledge/learning, speech, and sexually selected traits, there is no reason to say that the traits that help in THOSE ways cannot also help in a "perverse" or "unintended" way to help us work against simple selection.

And, quite glaringly, Liddle doesn't even mention the idea that, in the not-too-distant future, humanity will likely be able to modify its own genetic future and direct a new form of artificially selected evolution.

But then again, I can't expect too much recognition of such details in a non-scholarly. journalistic article. Which, I suppose, begs the question: what good is it to have journalistic reviews, good or bad, written by people without the faintest clue about the subject on which they are writing? I'm not trying to put down journalism on the whole, but if you're going to review a book like this, I should think you could at least familiarize yourself with the concepts involved!

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9. Comment #11827 by ateo15 on December 7, 2006 at 1:26 pm

Liddle's article is just another in an irritating string that really don't address the central issues of Prof. Dawkins' excellent book. Straightaway Liddle employs the common tactic of trying to equate the conclusions of science and reason which Prof. Dawkins elucidates with another "faith system". He accuses Prof. Dawkins of being dogmatic and in not so thinly veiled parts, of being arrogant. Why do so many of the believers engage in this kind of pathetic diversionary nonsense? Because they have NO evidence for their position.

As to the criticisms of dogmatism and arrogance, I suggest that he consider that Prof. Dawkins and other atheists base their conclusions on an impressively abundant and growing body of knowledge that forms the most plausible and reasonable answer to the question of the origins and life of the universe. If you want to see arrogance, watch almost any televangelist of whatever sect (Rev. Haggard for a timely and potent example) swagger about the pulpit fervently telling the world what they should believe and pronouncing on nearly every aspect of the world around them and based on what? The tired and often cruel superstitions of tribal bronze age religious systems. Prof. Dawkins like so many of us are tired of being subject to the constant bombardment by these empty forms of religious indoctrination and coercion. A taste of their own medicine might be a good corrective.

Liddle says that Darwinian theory may change. I think that is likely to some degree because science is open to discovery and is in pursuit of truth. It certainly won't be changed by religion but by patient and thorough investigation and analysis and scientists such as Prof. Dawkins I should think would happily revise their understanding should that occur. Science corrects itself whereas religion almost never does.

Liddle's article doesn't contribute much to the discussion but it surely exposes the believers' lack of substantive argument and the grasping, impotent tactics they fall back on to avoid the central issues.

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10. Comment #11837 by Noodly on December 7, 2006 at 3:26 pm

 avatarIt's funny how Liddle emphasises that science will have to modify evolution theories, discarding and adding bits as new information comes to light - WELL THAT'S THE WHOLE BLOODY POINT OF SCIENCE. KNOWLEDGE EVOLVES.

He can't find anything to discredit Dawkin's destruction of God so he tries to make him out as some sort of Darwinian fundamentalist. Dawkins has stated that he would the first to dump Darwin and/or admit to God's existence if new evidence was overwhelming.

No one's forcing anyone to change their view on God. The Zeitgeist is encouraging frank exchanges of views rather than sweeping them under the carpet in order to avoid "offense".

The tide is turning.

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11. Comment #11838 by gengar on December 7, 2006 at 3:36 pm

It's not so much the God Delusion that shows holes in Religion, it's the lack of a coherent argument in reply.

Yes, this is what has most affected me as well. It's like someone's called all these "sophisticated theologians" on their bluff - and they don't have a clue how to respond.

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12. Comment #11842 by Jack Rawlinson on December 7, 2006 at 4:02 pm

 avatarI didn't read any further than the point at which this ignoramus described Dawkins' knowledge of evolutionary theory as, "a simple and touching faith in the scientific creed of Darwinism". That was more than enough to tell me what sort of ignorant dolt we're dealing with here.

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13. Comment #11862 by jps2285 on December 7, 2006 at 7:42 pm

Jared,

I can't agree more, "I should think you could at least familiarize yourself with the concepts involved!" this Rod Liddle has no idea what evolution is, nor what science is. Science inspires awe and wonder to figure out what is unknown. God, on the other had inspires awe and wonder in what is unknown!!

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14. Comment #11864 by jdaigle on December 7, 2006 at 9:18 pm

All of us, Richard included, need to stop rolling over and taking it when people do the "Hitler, Stalin, Mao" bit. The proper response to that, I think, is this:

First of all, if you want to blame atheism for deaths under those regimes, you must blame religion for all deaths in prisons, from famine, or disease or war under all relgious regimes. So basically, it is Hitler, Stalin and Mao versus everyone who died as a result of famine, disease, or war on every continent for the entirety of recorded history up till at least 1850 or so. Obviously, the long term scourge is religion.

Second, of that trinity of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, only one actually ordered people to hunt down specific ethnic enemies, put them in camps, and kill them. That one was Hitler, an outspoken champion of religion in public life.

The Hitler/Stalin/Mao card is demonstrable bullshit.

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15. Comment #11866 by Joadist on December 7, 2006 at 10:23 pm

jdaigle,

Quite Correct. The death toll attributed to Stalin also includes the millions of soldiers who died as Allies of the US in WW2 fighting Germany.

In 1776, the US Founding Fathers recognized the importance of seperation of church and state.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc had a century of examination of that idea. They knew, what every leader in all history found out, that the Church will never willingly share power.
Christianity and Islam share the same goal...Global domination. There isn't any debate about that. They hold their Diety above all State power. Ask any of them if they would forsake their religion in the best interests of their nation.

Being a little bit theocratic is like being a little bit pregnant.

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16. Comment #11867 by Taz Hameer on December 7, 2006 at 10:51 pm

THE FAIRY TALE CALLED "GOD"

God is a fairy tale. Like a fairy. Like a Goblin. Its an idea existing in our minds and not demonstrable by observing the nature of the universe.

Infact, upon scientific observations of the nature of the universe, we find mountains of evidences showing the improbabilty of the existence of a Supreme Consciousness (thats what God is taken to mean without getting in to religious mumbo jumbo). No one in the scientific community has demonstrated this better than Richard Dawkins.

I will define my understanding of consciousness. I consider consciousness synonymous with awareness of one's surroundings. Thats a simple but fair definition.

Awareness of one's surroundings in humans, for example, is possible only through the following pathways:

* Visual

* Auditory

* Olfactory

* Tactile

* Taste

If you damage to the visual pathway whether in the intraocular structures or on the retina, the optic nerve, optic chiasma, optic tract, lateral geniculate body, optic radiations, or broca's areas 17,18 and 19 of the occipital cortex, will result, depending on the extent and the site of damage, in to either partial or complete unilateral or bilateral blindess. If blindess is complete in both the eyes, then, the visual aspect of awareness will cease to exist.

The same for the hearing pathway. If fully damaged, the result is either conductive deafness or sensorineural deafness or both depending on the nature of the cause and the site of damage. And the auditory aspect of awareness ceases to exist.

This axiom, if I may call it, applies to the remaining aspects of awareness: the olfactory, tactile and taste pathways. Destroy each of these pathways and the respective aspects of awareness ceases to exist. Destroy the brain and awareness (consciousness) no longer exists. You no longer exist.

Though this is too simple a definition, the point is that whatever be the complexity of consciousness, it is as a result of complex processes taking place in our brains.

In other words, upon observing the universe, we see that for consciousness to exist, whether in humans or other animals, some sort of 'Central Nervous System' (in our case the brain) has to exist.

In other words, consciousness is the product of a nervous system, either simple or complex producing various complexities of consciousness among the life forms in this universe.

It doesnt exist in "quantum realm" or beyond "matter, time, and space". That is just wishful thinking, not scientific observation.

So prior to the formation some sort of 'central nervous system' there had to be only the blind watchmater in the form of the laws of physics, chemistry and natural selection to give rise to life initially and then some sort of crude version of consciousness which gradually evolved in complexity as time went by.

Remember the age of the earth is of the order of a few BILLION YEARS OLD and that is a heck of a long time, way too long and sufficient to account for the evolution of complex life and consciousness on earth.

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17. Comment #11872 by Sancus on December 8, 2006 at 1:19 am

'Oh,' he says. 'I think that it is incidental that Stalin was an atheist. I don't think that Hitler was. Stalin did his deeds in the name of a kind of Marxism, and you can argue as to whether that's a religion or not.'

Isn't that the point, I suggest. That with one set of values removed, another will always fill its place? That if you remove religion, there is a gap which will always be filled —


Well, now, here he does have a point. And a very good one. Atheists are "morality leeches" to some extent. We mooch our morality from the traditions that fathered us. People literally tend to get their morality from their parents, but also from people around them when they're young. Everybody leeches their morality to some extent.

Atheists have an opportunity not to leech. We don't have to look at what's already being practiced. We can found our morality on something new, something that we all agree is important to us -- self-ownership.

To say that there is no God is to say that God does not own us. This may at first seem obvious to us, but to believers, the basis for their morality is that they do not own themselves. They believe someone else owns them, a father figure in their head. Saying we do not believe in God is to say that we own ourselves and do not look to be owned by others. That is the basis for our morality.

For more, please visit the following link.

http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

and usually by something worse than belief in a deity? Are we ever worse than when we feel ourselves to be unconstrained masters of our domain, answerable to nobody but ourselves?


Yes, we're worse when we're answerable to an entirely imaginary being, or to a non-imaginary tyrant, or to the majority, or anything other than the basic ides of human rights based on the principle of self-ownership.

We're much better off when we're answerable to ourselves, and the principle that everyone owns his or her self -- no slavery to dogma, or philosophy. No domination, no war, no harm, no theft. But lots of voluntary mutual consent.

'I agree with you that I have not sufficiently explained that.


Please visit that link? :)

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18. Comment #11876 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 1:59 am

 avatarJack Rawlinson said: "I didn't read any further than the point at which this ignoramus described Dawkins' knowledge of evolutionary theory as, "a simple and touching faith in the scientific creed of Darwinism". That was more than enough to tell me what sort of ignorant dolt we're dealing with here."
____________

You are more patient than I. The title, 'A man who believes in Darwin as feverently as he hates God' told me that I would be wasting my time if I thought reading the article would be a interesting and valid criticism of TGD. I read it, so I can appreciate the intelligent and stimulating responses that such articles inspire on this site.

At the risk of boring many here, how can RD hate something that does not exist for him? RD, as a scientist, accepts scientific, provable evidence as a quideline to formulate theories that answer questions. Science is not absolute as an body of knowledge, and it changes. Does Liddle think he has something new there, that RD does not know?

If RD ever did say, oh, yes, I do believe in Darwin like I fervently hate God, all that would mean is that RD is as nutty as the supporters of religious superstition--it certainly would not exonerate the believers, just because a nutter has joined their throng, adding yet another but different flavor to the simmering cauldron of irrationality. It would not dissipate in one swell swoop the enormous body of evidence that points out that God is highly improbable.

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19. Comment #11882 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 2:38 am

 avatarLiddle describing Dawkins' knowledge of evolutionary theory as, "a simple and touching faith in the scientific creed of Darwinism" is yet another case of this author better not get what he wishes for--if faith can be simple and touching (and I am thinking more in the lines of a bit touched in the head), then perhaps the faith that supporters of religious superstitions encourage is also simple and touching, including the faith of Christianity.

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20. Comment #11885 by hopeful on December 8, 2006 at 2:55 am

Liddle says: "...'Have an enjoyable sexual relationship with someone of either gender but try not to hurt anyone while doing so' — that sort of thing. They have no resonance, not the slightest suggestion that they might outlast even our current generation, never mind provide us with a template for 2,000 years."

How can Liddle make such an absurd statement!!!

Read it again: 'Have an enjoyable sexual relationship with someone of either gender but try not to hurt anyone while doing so'

and Liddle says "...not the slightest suggestion that they might outlast even our current generation"

This won't outlast even the current generation???

Notwithstanding Dawkins' reply, this particular example of a commandment would surely serve us very well for many many times longer than the bible has existed!

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21. Comment #11886 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod on December 8, 2006 at 3:00 am

Rod Liddle appears to have done no research at all prior to this interview. He knows nothing of Natural Selection and evolution, and he appears not to have even read the God Delusion. The Spectator must be desperate for copy to have let this get as far as the printed page.

You don't have to be an athiest to see that the text has been put together in a very poor way (ie, in that he has manipulated the interview with inserted comments and text). I'm surprised at The Spectator's editor; I would have told Rod Liddle to do it again, and this time write like a grown up.

I sincerely hope that the Channel 4 programme's editor does a lot better.

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22. Comment #11889 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 3:42 am

25. Comment #11886 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod

>>I sincerely hope that the Channel 4 programme's editor does a lot better.<<

I wouldn't bet on it. In previous TV shows, Liddle has come across as an airy-fairy, woo-woo character who's clearly impressed by mysticism. This crappy review is no surprise to me.

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23. Comment #11890 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 3:43 am

 avatar"In the downstairs loo of Richard Dawkins's house in Oxford there's a framed award from the Royal Society; to remind visitors, or maybe Richard himself, that here lives a man of some purpose, some gravitas and intellectual clout".
_________

No, Liddle, it is to tempt sinners like you to steal something you covet.

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24. Comment #11891 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 3:48 am

 avatar"His latest wife, the actress Lalla Ward, has done her bit too, helping out various bereft timelords in Dr Who".

___________

Huh? Please someone explain why this is relevant to the article? I can see mentioning Lalla Ward reading from the TGD in various venues, but mentioning an acting role that she did is silly.

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25. Comment #11897 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 4:37 am

 avatarJared said, "Were it true that our brains were evolved "for" going against genetically determined ideas, then of COURSE the actual act of going against genes would be "determined" in the way that Liddle presumes. But, since it is most likely that our brains evolved this way "for" other reasons, such as pattern recognition, decision making, storing of cultural knowledge/learning, speech, and sexually selected traits, there is no reason to say that the traits that help in THOSE ways cannot also help in a "perverse" or "unintended" way to help us work against simple selection".
___________

TGD mentions that religion could very well be a by-product of Darwinian survival (p.172) Dawkins: When we ask about the survival value of anything, we may be asking the wrong question. We need to rewrite the question in a more helpful way. Perhaps the feature we are interested in (religion in this case) doesn't have a direct survival value of its own, but is a by-product of something else that does".

Happily, along with the by-product of religion, there is also the by-product of our mental consciousness which is more than able to dismantle the irrational underpinnings of religious superstitions.

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26. Comment #11902 by Apemanblues on December 8, 2006 at 5:02 am

 avatarWell I can only come to two conclusions from this interview.

1) Rod Liddle has not read Dawkins work (or his agent read it, or he skimmed it, or he doesn't understand it).

2) Rod Liddle is a moron.

I suspect it might be a little of both and it doesn't say much for his upcoming programme. Is he really that wooly a thinker? He's embarrassing himself.

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27. Comment #11905 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 6:08 am

 avatarSancus said, "Saying we do not believe in God is to say that we own ourselves and do not look to be owned by others. That is the basis for our morality".
_________

This marvelous quality of atheistic morality is maligned frequently in the opposing camp as being arrogant and full of oneself--well, what I am supposed to be full of?

Morality based on God punishing us for doing elsewise is bankrupct morality, morality that has a death sentence.

As an earlier poster said, "The tide is turning." People who can be moral without religious superstitions are no longer putting up with the myth that religious beliefs causes us to be moral. And as for the frequent question put to atheists, what will replace religion in our lives--find out for yourselves--we did.

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28. Comment #11927 by beebhack on December 8, 2006 at 8:23 am

Solid ad hominem tactics; I used to work with Liddle (actually, a very amusing and mostly rational guy) and this doesn't surprise me. He fronted a reasonable doco a few months ago attacking the so-called Vardy schools in the North of England (chokker with Creationists). Shame he's such a media tart, now.

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29. Comment #11935 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 9:39 am

32. Comment #11927 by beebhack

I saw that Vardy documentary, it started off well but Liddle's 'attack' went somewhat limp, especially aginst the so-called director of science, I think his name is McQuoid -- the guy who said he had no problem with a 6 Kyr old Earth. I wouldn't let this person direct the education of a slug, nevermind a human being.

I found the classroom scene most distasteful; each pupil isolated in a little bible-dominated cubicle that prevented even eye-contact with the other kids. Luckily my children are grown up, but I feel sorry for parents who have to send their's to such a place because there's no alternative. I couldn't tolerate that, I'd be compelled to make an example of myself by breaking the law and keeping my kids at home.

It seemed like Liddle chickened out, it could've been a much more powerful and entertaining (good TV) program; I actually wanted to jump in, cast Liddle aside, and tackle the fundies myself.

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30. Comment #11936 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 9:52 am

To all who are against Faith Schools.

The Liddle/Vardy program reminded me never to buy a car from any Vardy dealership. I suggest that you all consider boycotting Vardy, every little thing we do to show our displeasure, helps.

H'mm, I just thought...how about a car bumper sticker that reads: "A Vardy car? No way!"

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31. Comment #11938 by celestial_T on December 8, 2006 at 10:14 am

 avatarLiddle has always annoyed me a bit, but now I see that the man is an idiot - which is disappointing for someone writing for the Spectator.
Here's some random points that occured to me:

I don't quite understand why he sees it as ironic that RD will make money out of TGD. More surprising that Liddle gets paid for turning in such a shoddy piece of copy.

Why is it any time an atheist talks enthusiastically about science and truth they are accused of 'resorting to rhetoric' - aren't we allowed to be passionate about things?

Liddle asks, 'what if Darwin's theory is wrong?'. Surely, even without a Darwinian solution the idea that a weird magical thing that we can't detect made everything is a complete non-explanation anyway?

ok I'm done now!

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32. Comment #12007 by Diplo on December 9, 2006 at 7:49 am

 avatarWhat a disgusting, dishonest and lazy article that was. It's quite clear that Liddle has neither a grasp on science or ethics.

"...never mind provide us with a template for 2,000 years.
If the template religion had provided for us was actually any good then we wouldn't be looking back on 2,000 years of wars, killing, murder and, yes, religious conflict. The so-called 'Holy' texts that provide us with religious templates are so pliable that they can accommodate anyone from Torquemada to pacifists like Rowan Williams.

If this template were any good then surely the litmus test would be that our moral compass would not have budged over the 2,000 years? Well, thankfully, it has - we no longer widely approve of religious crusades to wipe out heathens, burning old women alive at the stake, torturing heretics, stoning to death adulterers, beheading people for not observing the Sabbath etc.

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33. Comment #12029 by John Phillips on December 9, 2006 at 12:04 pm

So let me get this right, according to Little, our moral compass as defined by relgion hasn't changed in 2000 years. Great, so I can sell my daughter, keep slaves and beat them close to death as long as I don't actually kill them, after all they are my property, etc. etc. Somehow, for all its, faults this is not the world I live in.

In reality, the fact that our moral compass has changed so much in the last 2000 years has happened in spite of religion more often than not and not because of it, as the established religions have nearly invariably been on the side of the status quo. In fact, whenever a religion, or more accuarately a reinterpretation has caused some kind of social change, or even simply threatened one, it has always been attacked by the established churches as a heresy and often put down with extreme ruthlessness. If such religions are to be our moral compass for the next 2000 years then we really are in deep deep trouble.

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34. Comment #12051 by Martha on December 9, 2006 at 5:47 pm

 avatarReply to Post No. 20: Author SANCUS

Re: Ownership of your own life seems to be your creed. How come then you are advertising Health Insurance on your website?

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35. Comment #12052 by Martha on December 9, 2006 at 6:16 pm

 avatarJOHN PHILLIPS said:- "If such religions are to be our moral compass for the next 2000 years then we really are in deep deep trouble."


We couldn't possibly make that same mistake again, now could we!!!

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36. Comment #12062 by seals on December 10, 2006 at 2:20 am

 avatarHmm ... bit of a slimeball this guy - insidiously patronising: RD is a timelord battling daleks of religion, like this is some kind of Dr Who adventure, and has a "simple and touching faith"...

Re the "commandments" - "But they are terribly ephemeral things, unintentionally hilarious — the sort of stuff that might be dreamed up by Polly Toynbee after someone had slipped an ecstasy tablet in her San Pellegrino after a long day in the Guardian offices". Makes a change from "acres of rhetoric" at least...

And snide. ("his latest wife"??)

It's Liddle who is not wholly open... unless this kind of verbal assault and misrepresentation is too far out to be taken seriously, maybe prudent not to entertain these folk!

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37. Comment #12067 by Worrel Loder-Bull on December 10, 2006 at 5:51 am

Rod Liddle is typical of most media people. They make their pitch with fine, seemingly authoritative rhetoric, but it's only when you hear them spouting off on a subject in which you yourself are knowlegeable that you realise how generally ignorant they are.

Liddle is clearly unfamiliar with the finer detail of Darwinian theory or he wouldn't dismiss it so easily. He doesn't understand that if the theory of natural selection were to be replaced it could only be by a theory that would refute the biblical fairy tale of creation even more strongly than does Darwinism.

Liddle's facetious attempt to debunk Richard Dawkins is pathetic. I doubt he really believes much of his own writing, and is producing it merely to create a cute article for his paper.

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38. Comment #12070 by seedf01 on December 10, 2006 at 7:12 am

Three things not referenced in this correspondence, which some contributors may be interested in:

1. A lucid Darwinian explanation of how morality may have developed in the human race can be found in Matt Ridley's book 'The origins of virtue', which I recommend.

2. No mention of Dawkins' own coining - 'memes', the cultural equivalent of genes.

3. We know that a large proportion of the human genome is inactive at any given moment. Recent research suggests that genes can be 'switched on' and 'switched off' by changes in the conditions of a gene's environment. This heads off at the pass what is a largely spurious objection to natural selection anyway: that the timescales available for evolution are too short - even after you've discounted the Christian tosh of the world only being 10,000 years old. This relatively new account of what happens - which can be thought of as neo-Lamarckism - helps explain what look like sudden, telling evolutionary 'jumps'.

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39. Comment #12082 by rmgantt on December 10, 2006 at 9:00 am

Darwinism flawed and careworn? Little doesn't understand that the point of scientific theories is to under go change and metamorphosis as new evidence is discovered which refines the theory. These changes do not suggest that the theory is flawed or careworn, rather, that it is more and more relavent, becoming more polished over time.

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40. Comment #12092 by John Phillips on December 10, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Martha: We couldn't possibly make that same mistake again, now could we!!!

Unfortunately, we only have to look at the spoutings of many of todays so called religious leaders of the world's most powerful religions to know that if left to them then it is not only possible but probable that we will make the same mistakes. Witness the catholic's church stance on AIDS and condoms in third world countries as a rather frightening and evil (and I use the world deliberately) example of such.

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41. Comment #12467 by Vigilant Watcher on December 12, 2006 at 4:17 am

 avatarLiddle exemplifies the typical opponent, as others have pointed out, in criticism without example and assumption without basis.

If 'The God Delusion' lacks depth in some parts (or is unconvincing to Liddle) then it is because it is intended to cover the subject at a broader level and not delve into the specific contradictions inherent in the religious mindset.

Liddle should read more or perhaps, just another one of RDs books, in which many of the apparent contradictions are discussed in considerbly more depth and alternative and rational explanation given to foster an understanding of the real world.

Having said that, there is value in articles such as this in that it brings out into the open the woolly-minded thinking that pervades religious indoctrination and belief.

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42. Comment #12474 by Umslopogaas on December 12, 2006 at 5:35 am

Liddle says that "By far the weakest part of the God Delusion is where Dawkins attempts to explain why atheistic regimes have far outdone religious regimes in their murderousness, their imhumanity". Whether Dawkins's argument is weak or not is totally irrelevant to whether God exists. Even if every religious regime throughout history were all sweetness and light and every atheistic state brutal and fascistic, it makes not a jot of difference to nor throws any light on the argument. God either exists or does not and what authority, secular or divine, administrations appeal to when justifying their actions has no bearing on the issue.

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43. Comment #13114 by Michael on December 15, 2006 at 3:26 pm

I was so incenced by Liddles article that I sent the following repost to the Spectator. Not suprisingly they haven't printed it! Seeing Liddles contribution this week I can see that he really is the Tory party at prayer.

Sir.
Why is it that critics of Dawkins and his recent book, imbued with faith, attack by innuendo but without evidence. They attack the messenger and not the message. Rod Liddle's interview is one such and it starts in the first paragraph; "his latest wife, the actress Lalla Ward……." Is he gratuitously questioning Dawkins' domestic stability and might the pot be calling the kettle black? In any event, domestic state does not impinge on the thesis that religions are not based on evidence.

Liddle goes on to criticize The God Delusion as a book of rhetoric and not science. He is wrong in that there is plenty of science, but religions are based on rhetoric and so it is hardly surprising that Dawkins uses religious rhetoric for some arguments.

Liddle makes another egregious error in suggesting that Darwin's theory of evolution is 'flawed and careworn'. It is not. For professionals it remains as fresh and coherent as the day it was written. There is so much evidence in support of the theory that it is now as much scientific fact as Newtonian physics. Ever more research data serves to reinforce the original concept, but refine the detail, much as physics has developed from Newton through Einstein to Quantum. The very nature of science is to progress, refine, refute, develop and enlarge our understanding of the world and space. If Liddle doubts the mechanics of evolution, he might like to consider why Northern races of humans have lost skin pigment and why human faces are so different across the world. Our current species of Homo sapiens migrated out of Africa as recently as some 40,000 years ago and yet so much has changed so quickly. Why? He might also like to consider how long it might have taken for humans to have actually speciated again; something happily prevented by widespread travel and migration these last few hundred years.

Liddle goes on to say that Dawkins clings to the creed of Darwinism like the true believer. Wrong again. Dawkins merely adheres to evidence, for which there is much in biological science but none for religions. The latter alone depends on faith and creeds.

'Relationships indeed' sneers Liddle when Dawkins discusses the changing Zeitgeist as if religions haven't evolved over time. How many different sects of Christianity and Islam are there today? All catering for the imperatives of their various adherents, as wishes have changed over 2000 years. Yet all professing the absolute truth. Religions are themselves a product of the Zeitgeist and move with it.

Liddle repeats the hackneyed contention that leaders without faith have propounded the most and greatest evils. Oh yes! Where is the evidence? Stalin yes, but nearly all the rest have been religious adherents including Hitler and Genghis Khan. Even Blair and Bush, devout Christians, deliberately deceived their public when invading Iraq. And isn't the indoctrination of our children with elaborate fairy stories and great guilt, serious ongoing abuse? There is no evidence that morality stems from religion but has indeed been incorporated into religion. Morality derives from biological pragmatism and simpler variants are common among many social species. It also predates the present 'great religions'.

One might ask why religions are so pervasive despite being based on so little evidence. It is probably because it provides such a powerful aid for the alpha males ruling their people. It overrides the alpha male and cannot be dismissed with the same ease as deposing the leader. It invests the leader with supernatural authority. It is also a useful means of making large groups of people cohesive. Clan or tribe size has clear advantage in defending territory against neighbours. Religion then becomes very much part of the clan scent, to use an animal analogy. A possible example of group selection and not merely a by-product of our long adolescence.

Liddle ends his piece with the 'killer question'. 'What would make you believe in God?' The question, Liddle suspects, has never occurred to Dawkins. Well, if he had followed some of Dawkins many public appearances he would realise that it is a recurrent question, which always draws a variant of the same answer. The only possible answer. Evidence. Sound objective evidence and Dawkins would change his mind as any good scientist

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44. Comment #13599 by jbannon on December 18, 2006 at 4:37 pm

I'll skip the rather unsubtle ad hominem in the piece and skip right to the argument. Basically, it's a yawn! We've heard all this before: bereft of god we have no moral centre and are liable to become genocidal maniacs at any moment as we revert back to the Hobbsean state of nature. It just demonstrates the kind of baleful influence religions have that we still hear these kinds of arguments. One might be back in the days of Calvin or Saint Augustine! We are all totally depraved and we can never rise above our animal nature. Yet here's the problem. The vast majority of theists and atheists alike do not revert to this nature. In other words, people are not good because of religion but in spite of it.

The single thing that all genocidal actions have in common is the adverse effects of "group think". Individuals can lose their self identity in the group, so much so that they lose their sense of empathy for their fellow creatures and their common humanity. Literally, the other becomes untermensche (and I use the term deliberately). This is the main reason why we see genocidal acts as is amply demonstrated by recent events.

Also we see that the openness of science to the modification of existing theory is seen as a weakness. I wonder when this guy will learn that, far from being a weakness, this is science's great strength. Sure it means that scientific knowledge is not absolute and that evolutionary theory might well change into something completely different, but whoever said that any knowledge was absolute? Believers need to understand that such absolutes simply don't exist and wishful thinking will not make it so.

Finally we have the usual charge of moral relativism unsubtly disguised as a charge of the relativism of history. However, instead of saying that because morality has changed over the years means that we are caught in a relativistic prison, could it not be read as that we have actually learned something? This evidently doesn't occur to the author of this piece. Perhaps he would rather that we were still discriminating against women, blacks and homosexuals just because it says they're inferior in some dumb book whose contents date back to the bronze age.

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45. Comment #13872 by Sancus on December 19, 2006 at 10:35 pm

Martha, I have no idea what you're talking about, but the link wasn't working so I changed it. Hope that clears up your confusion.

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