A man who believes in Darwin as fervently as he hates God
In the downstairs loo of Richard Dawkins's house in Oxford there's a framed award from the Royal Society; to remind visitors, or maybe Richard himself, that here lives a man of some purpose, some gravitas and intellectual clout. The Faraday prize is given to those who communicate science with brilliance and verve to the scientifically ignorant, thick general public. Richard has done a lot of that, ever since The Selfish Gene in 1976. It is his job these days; he holds the Simonyi chair in the public understanding of science at Oxford University. His latest wife, the actress Lalla Ward, has done her bit too, helping out various bereft timelords in Dr Who. 2. Comment #11797 by JaffaCake on December 7, 2006 at 12:09 pm
I do dislike it when people say things like "riven with beguiling contradictions" without actually highlighting one.3. Comment #11800 by Thrall on December 7, 2006 at 12:28 pm
The fact that the author of this article has a hard time with "moral relativity throughout time" shows us a lot. Will your great-grandparents go to hell because they had slaves? Will your great-great-grandfather go to hell because he raped or killed his wife for cheating on him. These things were perfectly acceptable and legal at the time (marital rape was legal in the state of Utah, US until 1989.)4. Comment #11802 by Jiten on December 7, 2006 at 12:39 pm
5. Comment #11806 by robert s on December 7, 2006 at 12:47 pm
One might ask how long Darwinism has to be held to be true? Will Liddle be celebrating its accession to 'truth' in three years, or in 2,000 years time will his heirs be telling us that Darwinism is still too new to compete with the, by then 4,000 year-old truths of the Bible?6. Comment #11811 by ruth on December 7, 2006 at 12:59 pm
A characteristic trick: pretending to temporarily concede a point in order to smuggle in a "fact" that's patently false:7. Comment #11814 by alan_s on December 7, 2006 at 1:05 pm
Whilst I agree with a lot of the comments above, I agree with Liddle on one key point - that Darwinism is not absolute. I do so in the sense for example that Newton was correct up to a point about gravity, and Einstein extended that point further - now as we understand more about cosmology, Relativity is being modified too. Darwinism is a starting point for our understanding of how our species came to be, not the end and by the scientific method it is only natural we should find modifications, additions and amendments as the sum of our knowledge increases.8. Comment #11817 by Jared on December 7, 2006 at 1:08 pm
9. Comment #11827 by ateo15 on December 7, 2006 at 1:26 pm
Liddle's article is just another in an irritating string that really don't address the central issues of Prof. Dawkins' excellent book. Straightaway Liddle employs the common tactic of trying to equate the conclusions of science and reason which Prof. Dawkins elucidates with another "faith system". He accuses Prof. Dawkins of being dogmatic and in not so thinly veiled parts, of being arrogant. Why do so many of the believers engage in this kind of pathetic diversionary nonsense? Because they have NO evidence for their position.10. Comment #11837 by Noodly on December 7, 2006 at 3:26 pm
11. Comment #11838 by gengar on December 7, 2006 at 3:36 pm
It's not so much the God Delusion that shows holes in Religion, it's the lack of a coherent argument in reply.12. Comment #11842 by Jack Rawlinson on December 7, 2006 at 4:02 pm
13. Comment #11862 by jps2285 on December 7, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Jared,14. Comment #11864 by jdaigle on December 7, 2006 at 9:18 pm
All of us, Richard included, need to stop rolling over and taking it when people do the "Hitler, Stalin, Mao" bit. The proper response to that, I think, is this:15. Comment #11866 by Joadist on December 7, 2006 at 10:23 pm
jdaigle,16. Comment #11867 by Taz Hameer on December 7, 2006 at 10:51 pm
THE FAIRY TALE CALLED "GOD"17. Comment #11872 by Sancus on December 8, 2006 at 1:19 am
'Oh,' he says. 'I think that it is incidental that Stalin was an atheist. I don't think that Hitler was. Stalin did his deeds in the name of a kind of Marxism, and you can argue as to whether that's a religion or not.'
Isn't that the point, I suggest. That with one set of values removed, another will always fill its place? That if you remove religion, there is a gap which will always be filled —
and usually by something worse than belief in a deity? Are we ever worse than when we feel ourselves to be unconstrained masters of our domain, answerable to nobody but ourselves?
'I agree with you that I have not sufficiently explained that.
18. Comment #11876 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 1:59 am
19. Comment #11882 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 2:38 am
20. Comment #11885 by hopeful on December 8, 2006 at 2:55 am
Liddle says: "...'Have an enjoyable sexual relationship with someone of either gender but try not to hurt anyone while doing so' — that sort of thing. They have no resonance, not the slightest suggestion that they might outlast even our current generation, never mind provide us with a template for 2,000 years."21. Comment #11886 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod on December 8, 2006 at 3:00 am
Rod Liddle appears to have done no research at all prior to this interview. He knows nothing of Natural Selection and evolution, and he appears not to have even read the God Delusion. The Spectator must be desperate for copy to have let this get as far as the printed page.22. Comment #11889 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 3:42 am
25. Comment #11886 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod23. Comment #11890 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 3:43 am
24. Comment #11891 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 3:48 am
25. Comment #11897 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 4:37 am
26. Comment #11902 by Apemanblues on December 8, 2006 at 5:02 am
27. Comment #11905 by Logicel on December 8, 2006 at 6:08 am
28. Comment #11927 by beebhack on December 8, 2006 at 8:23 am
Solid ad hominem tactics; I used to work with Liddle (actually, a very amusing and mostly rational guy) and this doesn't surprise me. He fronted a reasonable doco a few months ago attacking the so-called Vardy schools in the North of England (chokker with Creationists). Shame he's such a media tart, now.29. Comment #11935 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 9:39 am
32. Comment #11927 by beebhack30. Comment #11936 by Yorker on December 8, 2006 at 9:52 am
To all who are against Faith Schools.31. Comment #11938 by celestial_T on December 8, 2006 at 10:14 am
32. Comment #12007 by Diplo on December 9, 2006 at 7:49 am
33. Comment #12029 by John Phillips on December 9, 2006 at 12:04 pm
So let me get this right, according to Little, our moral compass as defined by relgion hasn't changed in 2000 years. Great, so I can sell my daughter, keep slaves and beat them close to death as long as I don't actually kill them, after all they are my property, etc. etc. Somehow, for all its, faults this is not the world I live in.34. Comment #12051 by Martha on December 9, 2006 at 5:47 pm
35. Comment #12052 by Martha on December 9, 2006 at 6:16 pm
36. Comment #12062 by seals on December 10, 2006 at 2:20 am
37. Comment #12067 by Worrel Loder-Bull on December 10, 2006 at 5:51 am
Rod Liddle is typical of most media people. They make their pitch with fine, seemingly authoritative rhetoric, but it's only when you hear them spouting off on a subject in which you yourself are knowlegeable that you realise how generally ignorant they are.38. Comment #12070 by seedf01 on December 10, 2006 at 7:12 am
Three things not referenced in this correspondence, which some contributors may be interested in:39. Comment #12082 by rmgantt on December 10, 2006 at 9:00 am
Darwinism flawed and careworn? Little doesn't understand that the point of scientific theories is to under go change and metamorphosis as new evidence is discovered which refines the theory. These changes do not suggest that the theory is flawed or careworn, rather, that it is more and more relavent, becoming more polished over time.40. Comment #12092 by John Phillips on December 10, 2006 at 2:04 pm
Martha: We couldn't possibly make that same mistake again, now could we!!!41. Comment #12467 by Vigilant Watcher on December 12, 2006 at 4:17 am
42. Comment #12474 by Umslopogaas on December 12, 2006 at 5:35 am
Liddle says that "By far the weakest part of the God Delusion is where Dawkins attempts to explain why atheistic regimes have far outdone religious regimes in their murderousness, their imhumanity". Whether Dawkins's argument is weak or not is totally irrelevant to whether God exists. Even if every religious regime throughout history were all sweetness and light and every atheistic state brutal and fascistic, it makes not a jot of difference to nor throws any light on the argument. God either exists or does not and what authority, secular or divine, administrations appeal to when justifying their actions has no bearing on the issue.43. Comment #13114 by Michael on December 15, 2006 at 3:26 pm
I was so incenced by Liddles article that I sent the following repost to the Spectator. Not suprisingly they haven't printed it! Seeing Liddles contribution this week I can see that he really is the Tory party at prayer.44. Comment #13599 by jbannon on December 18, 2006 at 4:37 pm
I'll skip the rather unsubtle ad hominem in the piece and skip right to the argument. Basically, it's a yawn! We've heard all this before: bereft of god we have no moral centre and are liable to become genocidal maniacs at any moment as we revert back to the Hobbsean state of nature. It just demonstrates the kind of baleful influence religions have that we still hear these kinds of arguments. One might be back in the days of Calvin or Saint Augustine! We are all totally depraved and we can never rise above our animal nature. Yet here's the problem. The vast majority of theists and atheists alike do not revert to this nature. In other words, people are not good because of religion but in spite of it.45. Comment #13872 by Sancus on December 19, 2006 at 10:35 pm
Martha, I have no idea what you're talking about, but the link wasn't working so I changed it. Hope that clears up your confusion.
1. Comment #11793 by Kingasaurus on December 7, 2006 at 11:42 am
---''Well.' He has a think. 'I suppose a large-scale miracle which could not have been engineered by a conjuror. But I, um, find it hard to imagine exactly what that might be,' he concludes.The question, I suspect, has never even occurred to him. It is one of those possibilities to which he is not — being human and fallible, and thus wedded to a certain train of thought and resistant to being diverged from it — wholly open.----
Couldn't disagree with this more. I am open to a large-scale miracle where god would supposedly reveal himself, that can't be faked or have some other mundane explanation. But the fact that these events don't occur in the real world is what helps send some people towards atheism.
The fact that scientific thinkers need to imagine possibilities where god would reveal himself unambiguously does not indicate the lack of openness in the minds of religious skeptics. It indicates a lack of verifiable evidence for god in the real world that can't be massaged by wishful thinking alone.
Why isn't the author more upset that god likes to remain hidden in these supposedly maddening ways, rather than blaming Dawkins for not playing along with the game?
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