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Thursday, July 9, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Dennett at the Darwin Festival

by Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett

I have just returned from the Darwin Festival, which is running this week in Cambridge as one of the main commemorative events of this Darwin bicentenary year. The quality has been mixed, to say the least, but nobody would deny that a major high spot was Dan Dennett’s brilliant talk on Wednesday morning. Dan drew delighted laughter and numerous bouts of applause as he gently mocked the Christian apologists who, for some reason, had been invited to speak. Probably the loudest applause was for his simile of the ‘Cheshire Cat’s grin’ for the way ‘sophisticated’ theologians retreat and retreat in the face of science until there is nothing left but the unctuously vacuous smile. More than ever, one is left wondering why ‘theology’ is regarded as a subject at all.

On the two previous days, Dan was in the audience during a pair of divided sessions, one on ‘Theology in Darwinian Context’ and the other on ‘The Evolution of Religion’. I didn’t go to those sessions, but I was glad to receive two letters from Dan (also circulated to a few other people, including Jerry Coyne and PZ Myers), giving his amusing impressions. I asked Dan’s permission to post them, and he gave it for the following slightly modified version:-

Richard


Dennett“I am attending and participating in the big Cambridge University Darwin Week bash, and I noticed that one of the two concurrent sessions the first day was on evolution and theology, and was ‘supported by the Templeton Foundation’ (though the list of Festival Donors and Sponsors does not include any mention of Templeton). I dragged myself away from a promising session on speciation, and attended. Good thing I did. It was wonderfully awful. We heard about the Big Questions, a phrase used often, and it was opined that the new atheists naively endorse the proposition that “There are no meaningful questions that science cannot answer.” Richard Dawkins’ wonderful sentence about how nasty the God of the  Old Testament is was read with relish by Philip Clayton, Professor at Claremont School of Theology in California, and the point apparently was to illustrate just how philistine these atheists were—though I noticed that he didn’t say he disagreed with Richard’s evaluation of Yahweh. We were left to surmise, I guess, that it was tacky of Richard to draw attention to these embarrassing blemishes in an otherwise august tradition worthy of tremendous respect.  The larger point was the complaint that the atheists have a “dismissive attitude toward the Big Questions” and Dawkins, in particular, didn’t consult theologians. (H. Allen Orr, they were singing your song.) Clayton astonished me by listing God’s attributes: according to his handsomely naturalistic theology, God is not omnipotent,  not even supernatural, and . . . . in short Clayton is an atheist who won’t admit it.

  The second talk was by J. Wentzel van Huyssteen, a Professor of  Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, and it was an instance of  “theological anthropology,” full of earnest gobbledygook about embodied minds and larded with evolutionary tidbits drawn from Frans de Waal, Steven Mithen and others.  In the discussion period I couldn’t stand it any more and challenged the speakers: “I’m Dan Dennett, one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, and we are forever being told that we should do our homework and consult with the best theologians. I’ve heard two of you talk now, and you keep saying this is an interdisciplinary effort—evolutionary theology—but I am still waiting to be told what theology has to contribute to the effort. You’ve clearly adjusted your theology considerably in the wake of Darwin, which I applaud, but what traffic, if any, goes in the other direction? Is there something I’m missing? What questions does theology ask or answer that aren’t already being dealt with by science or secular philosophy? What can you clarify for this interdisciplinary project?” (Words to that effect)  Neither speaker had anything to offer, but van Huyssteen  blathered on for a bit without, however,  offering any instances of theological wisdom that every scientist interested in the Big Questions should have in his kit.

But I learned a new word: “kenotic” as in kenotic theology. It comes from the Greek word kenosis meaning ‘self-emptying.’ Honest to God. This new kenotic theology is all the rage in some quarters, one gathers, and it is “more deeply Christian for being more adapted to Darwinism.” (I’m not making this up.) I said that I was glad to learn this new word and had to say that I was tempted by the idea that kenotic theology indeed lived up to its name. At the coffee break, some folks told me my question had redeemed the session for them, but I would guess I irritated others with my persistent request for something of substance to chew on. 

After the second set of two talks, which I was obliged to listen to since the moderator promised more responses to my “challenge” and I had to stay around to hear them out, there was another half hour of discussion. I did my duty: I listened attentively, I asked questions, and the theologians were embarrassingly short on answers, though one recommended David Chalmers on panpsychism—a philosopher, not a theologian, and second, nobody, not even Chalmers, takes panpsychism seriously, to the best of my knowledge. Do theologians?

The third speaker was Dr. Denis Alexander of Cambridge University, and he had some interesting historical scholarship on the varying positions on progress and purpose offered by thinkers from Erasmus Darwin–who had surmised that all life began from a single “living filament” (nice guess!)–through Darwin and Spencer and the Huxleys and on to Gould and Dawkins (and me).  Particularly useful was a late quote from Gould’s last book (p468 if you want to run it down) in which he allowed, contrary to his long-held line on contingency, that evolution did exhibit “directional properties” that could not be ignored.  The conclusion of Alexander’s talk was that it is nowadays a little “more plausible that it isn’t necessarily the case that the evolutionary process doesn’t have a larger purpose.”  That is certainly a circumspect and modest conclusion.  The fourth speaker was the Catholic Father Fraser Watt (of Cambridge University School of Divinity, and a big Templeton grantsman, as noted by the chair).  He introduced us to “evolutionary Christology.” Again, I’m not making this up. Evolution, it turns out, was planned by an intelligent God to create a species “capable of receiving the incarnation”—though this particular competence of our species might be, in Watts’ opinion, a “spandrel.” Jesus was “a spiritual mutation, ” and “the culmination of the evolutionary process,” marking a turning point in world history. A member of the audience cheekily asked if Father Watt was saying that Jesus’s parents were both normal human beings then? (I was going to press the point: perhaps Jesus’s madumnal genes from Mary were the product of natural selection but his padumnal genes were hand crafted by the Holy Spirit!—but Father Watt forestalled the inquiry by declaring that he had no knowledge or opinion about Jesus’ parentage—something that his Catholic colleagues will presumably not appreciate.)
           
Afterwards I was asked if I had enjoyed the session, and learned anything, and I allowed as how I had. I would not have dared use the phrase “evolutionary Christology” for fear of being condemned as a vicious caricaturist of worthy, sophisticated theologians, but now I had heard the term used numerous times, and would be quoting it in the future, as an example of the sort of wisdom that sophisticated theology has to offer to evolutionary biology.

            I had an epiphany at the end of the session, but I kept it to myself: The Eucharist is actually a Recapitulation of the Eukaryotic Revolution. When Christians ingest the Body of Christ, without digesting it, but keep it whole (holistier-than-thou whole), they are re-enacting the miracle of endosymbiosis that paved the way for eventual multi-cellularity. And so, dearly beloved brethren, we can see that by keeping Christ intact in our bodies we are keeping His Power intact in our embodied Minds, or Souls, just the way the first Eukaryote was vouchsafed a double blessing of earthly competence that enabled its descendants to join forces in Higher Organizations. Evolutionary theology. . . . I think I get it! I can do it! It truly is intellectual tennis without a net.

There is another Templeton session on The Evolution of Religion, with Pascal Boyer, David Sloan Wilson, Michael Ruse and Harvey Whitehouse. Dr. Fraser Watt, our evolutionary Christologist, will be chairing the session. It will be interesting to see how docile these mammals are in the feeding trough.

Added the next day:-

I don’t know if this is interesting enough to post, but in the interest of ‘balanced coverage’ it should probably be added to my posting on the first session.
 
The second Templeton-sponsored session (at the Cambridge Darwin Festival) was more presentable.  On the evolution of religion, it featured clear, fact-filled presentations by Pascal Boyer and Harvey Whitehouse, a typical David Sloan Wilson advertisement for his multi-level selection approach, and an even more typical meandering and personal harangue from Michael Ruse.  The session was chaired, urbanely and without any contentful intervention, by Fraser Watt, our evolutionary christologist. (I wonder: should “christology” be capitalized?   Ian McEwan asked me if there was, perhaps, a field of X-ray christology.  I’ve been having fun fantasizing about how that might revolutionize science and open up a path for the Crick and Watson of theology!) 
 
I learned something at the session. Boyer presented a persuasive case that the “packaging” of the stew of separable and largely independent items as “religion” is itself ideology generated by the institutions, a sort of advertising that has the effect of turning religions into “brands” in competition. Whitehouse gave a fascinating short account of the Kivung cargo cult in a remote part of Papua New Guinea that he studied as an anthropologist, living with them for several years.  A problem: the Kivung cult has the curious belief that their gods (departed ancestors) will return, transformed into white men, and bearing high technology and plenty for all.  This does present a challenge for a lone white anthropologist coming to live with them for awhile, camera gear in hand, and wishing to be as unobtrusive as possible.  Wilson offered very interesting data from a new study by his group on a large cohort of American teenagers, half Pentecostals and half Episcopalians (in other words, maximally conservative and maximally liberal), finding that on many different scales of self-assessment, these young people are so different that they would look to a biologist like “different species.”  Ruse declared that while he is an atheist, he wishes that those wanting to explain religion wouldn’t start with the assumption that religious beliefs are false.  He doesn’t seem to appreciate the role of the null hypothesis or the presumption of innocence in trials.  We also learned tidbits about his life and his preference--as an atheist--for the Calvinist God.”


HindeThat’s the end of Dan’s account. I should add that those two religious sessions were supported by the Templeton Foundation, with the result that the distinguished biologist Robert Hinde FRS withdrew from speaking. I circulated the story, to the same circle of people, in the following terms:-

“Robert Hinde is the elder statesman of the science of Ethology and one of the most respected figures in British biology. I just met him at the big Cambridge Darwin Festival. Robert had agreed to speak in one of the sessions on 'Religion and Science' but withdrew on learning that it was sponsored by the Templeton Foundation. He is now even more respected among British biologists.”

Richard

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1. Comment #394768 by j.mills on July 9, 2009 at 10:07 am

 avatarI haven't even read this yet, and already I'm filled with unholy glee! :)

Other Comments by j.mills

2. Comment #394771 by Cartomancer on July 9, 2009 at 10:39 am

 avatarOnce again Dan Dennett hits the nail on the head. I am surprised the coffin has any left sticking up by now.

Will the full Dennett talk from the Wednesday be available at all? Or anything from the David Sloan Wilson talk on religiosity among American teengagers?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

3. Comment #394773 by Quine on July 9, 2009 at 10:46 am

 avatarOne of the things I got out of reading Boyer's book is that to understand the propagation of religion you should not spend so much time worrying about the theology, but rather, just follow the money. :wink:

Other Comments by Quine

4. Comment #394774 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 10:56 am

Brilliant piece. So much of what Dennett reports seems wonderfully bonkers:

Jesus was “a spiritual mutation, ” and “the culmination of the evolutionary process,” marking a turning point in world history.


This suggests an exciting project. Look for Jesus' tomb. Presumably there might be traces of DNA, even after the resurrection. This means that his genome sequence might be obtained (perhaps something Craig Venter might be interested in?). From sequence comparison, we could then find the "gene for being the Son of God".

I suggest we apply for Templeton funding.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

5. Comment #394775 by GalacticAtom on July 9, 2009 at 10:56 am

 avatar"Kenotic (self-emptying) theology". But how can something be emptying when there was nothing in it in the first place?

Other Comments by GalacticAtom

6. Comment #394776 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 10:58 am

Comment #394775 by GalacticAtom

Actually, it makes perfect sense, if you consider theology as anti-knowledge.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

7. Comment #394778 by Enlightenme.. on July 9, 2009 at 11:22 am

 avatar"The conclusion of Alexander’s talk was that it is nowadays a little “more plausible that it isn’t necessarily the case that the evolutionary process doesn’t have a larger purpose.” "

I'm reading that as.. open ended - we will not be able to conclude for certain that the evolutionary process isn't directed until completion of the project? Is that right?

------

Father Fraser Watt: Jesus was.. "the culmination of the evolutionary process"

Oh.. the project has been completed!

------
Is it Evolutionary Christol'ogy or Evolutionary Christ'ology?
This is important because I know if I don't get it rehearsed in my mind I'm gonna say Evolutionary Christalography and that'll be so embarrassing.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

8. Comment #394780 by j.mills on July 9, 2009 at 11:31 am

 avatarChristal Healing begins to make sense...

Other Comments by j.mills

9. Comment #394787 by Lucas on July 9, 2009 at 12:17 pm

 avatarIndeed, Quine, indeed. Also, check out the geography of natural resources, ports, etc.

Great stuff from everyone. Many thanks for the report. And huge respect to Mr. Hinde.

Other Comments by Lucas

10. Comment #394789 by Enlightenme.. on July 9, 2009 at 12:31 pm

 avatarWe could blend apophatic and kenotic together,

Kenotapophatic?
Apophakenotic Theology? (Help.. Carto) and see what happens, or how about Kenotapophatic Christology?

Will that work?

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

11. Comment #394790 by rod-the-farmer on July 9, 2009 at 12:32 pm

 avatar

Ruse declared that while he is an atheist, he wishes that those wanting to explain religion wouldn’t start with the assumption that religious beliefs are false

Pardon ? Did I miss something here ? This seems to say that people who already believe religion is false, are explaining religion to....people who haven't made a decision either way ? Huh ? Is that really happening somewhere ? If so, how can I join ? Or is he saying people who believe religion is false should not be explaining religion to anyone ?

On second thought, if I stretch this, he is saying atheists shouldn't......uh....no, wait....gosh.

I confess personal bafflement.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

12. Comment #394795 by JAMCAM87 on July 9, 2009 at 12:55 pm

 avatar
I’m Dan Dennett, one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse,


When I read this sentence the hair stood up on the back of my neck and my stomach lept. It's like in a battle scene in a movie when a hero saves the day. Just imagine being able to introduce yourself as one of the four horsemen. Brilliant!

Other Comments by JAMCAM87

13. Comment #394796 by AfraidToDie on July 9, 2009 at 12:59 pm

 avatarI wish I could have been there to see the faces of the snake oil salesmen when DD introduced his self and asked the first ball busting question. Maybe that is the real reason Robert Hinde withdrew from speaking?

Other Comments by AfraidToDie

14. Comment #394798 by SurfDude on July 9, 2009 at 1:11 pm

Very enjoyable article.

This needs to be sent as a QED to all the fleas that continually complain that RD should not comment about religion without understanding theology first. It strikes me that the more one studies it, the less comprehensible it becomes!

Other Comments by SurfDude

15. Comment #394799 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 1:24 pm

SurfDude-

I am not sure that theology from centuries ago is that awful. It sounds like there were some interesting ideas being discussed.

But what is simply laughable is the attempt to reconcile theism with the findings of science over the past few centuries.

There surely has to be a point at which modern theologists realise that their words are ridiculous and just give up.

Or perhaps not.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

16. Comment #394803 by Michel on July 9, 2009 at 1:32 pm

I was at the festival on wednesday morning, and the Dennett lecture absolutely was one of the highlights. Steven Jones was equally impressive, although his time to speak was criminally short (8 minutes).

It's a pity Dennett couldn't stay for the speciation session, that was a treasure of new insights into evolution.

And it was a delight to see Richard Dawkins leading the rounds of applause for Dennett :-)

Other Comments by Michel

17. Comment #394804 by MaxD on July 9, 2009 at 1:38 pm

 avatarSteve,
We should get to work on this grant proposal for the Templtons immediately. We could settle a long standing spiritual debate upon finding some Jesus DNA. Parthenogenesis or Demigod by means of Deity/jail-bait horizontal copulation (assuming missionary position was the most common Deity-human coupling among nominally male god-heads and their female human consorts)? A clear prediction, clear results. (Though if Francis Collins calls DNA the language of God, what does he call actual Godly DNA? An interesting thought no? Take that kenotic Christology!)I do smell a Templton Prize, a large portion of which we could donate to the RDF in Ray Comfort's name!
Anyone else up for the project?

Other Comments by MaxD

18. Comment #394805 by rod-the-farmer on July 9, 2009 at 1:41 pm

 avatarHow could there be a missionary position before there were missionaries ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

19. Comment #394806 by MaxD on July 9, 2009 at 1:43 pm

 avatarRod-the-farmer,
Now there is silly akenotic question. You must empty your head of such concepts as before and after, the missionary position sits outside of space and time, quite simply transcending both with love.

Other Comments by MaxD

20. Comment #394807 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 1:44 pm

Comment #394804 by MaxD

This suggests that the project may be possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCzbNkyXO50

Other Comments by Steve Zara

21. Comment #394809 by MaxD on July 9, 2009 at 1:54 pm

 avatarWell we should try to get in touch with the Pink Tiger Research foundation and see if they mind sharing some of their protocols. The next step is to do an epidemiology of this gene and track down its origin. From there back into antiquity and the introduction of the proto-gene from which the current Christian gene is derived. Presumably we can track it back to the middle-east?

Other Comments by MaxD

22. Comment #394810 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 1:57 pm

Comment #394809 by MaxD

Of course, what we need if we are to test for the ability of genes to enable incarnating is some actual God-presence, so we can see if it will be taken up with or without a certain gene. I wonder if Father Watt can provide us with some, or at least tell us where to locate it?

It is rather tempting to write to him about this.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

23. Comment #394812 by phiwilli on July 9, 2009 at 2:06 pm

Dennett maybe has one wee mistake - kenotic theology is not new (if he means "in the last few years"), although clearly it is new to Dennett. Almost 50 years ago I encountered it at a Southern Baptist seminary - although at that time no one connected it with evolution. In fact, many of my seminary profs had no complaints at all about evolution. Of course, since then there have been big changes in Southern Baptist beliefs!

Other Comments by phiwilli

24. Comment #394817 by Enlightenme.. on July 9, 2009 at 2:44 pm

 avatar^ "Of course, since then there have been big changes in Southern Baptist beliefs!"

Theolomemetic evolution

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

25. Comment #394818 by SurfDude on July 9, 2009 at 2:45 pm

Steve,

Re: "I am not sure that theology from centuries ago is that awful." You are surely right. However, in grand No-True-Scotsman style, that is not the theology the fleas are referring to. RD is supposed to understand their particular brand.

Other Comments by SurfDude

26. Comment #394820 by RichardofYork on July 9, 2009 at 3:06 pm

Just try to pry the smile from my face

Other Comments by RichardofYork

27. Comment #394824 by Cartomancer on July 9, 2009 at 3:30 pm

 avatar
This suggests an exciting project. Look for Jesus' tomb. Presumably there might be traces of DNA, even after the resurrection.
You have, I assume quite unwittingly, stumbled upon a rather vexed piece of later medieval theological disputation there. Whether or not christ left anything behind on earth after the ascension, or whether he took every last particle of himself with him when he resurrected and buggered off, was a question on which not only doctrinal clarity but also a fair amount of money and prestige rested.

The reason for this is the relic cult. Important relics were often huge tourist attractions in the later middle ages, and relics of christ were without a doubt the most sought after relics of all. Bits of the true cross, the nails that were banged into it, the crown of thorns, the spear of longinus, the shroud - thanks to the crusading spirit western Europe went absolutely mad for these things. It wasn't long before certain religious groups and orders started producing vials and vases filled with what was allegedly the spilled blood of christ - either from his exertions on the cross or decanted during his preparation for burial. Henry III of England received just such a vase of christ's blood from the heads of the orders of the Knights Templar and Knights Hospitaller, who had taken it from the patriarch of Jerusalem. Henry gave it to Westminster Abbey in 1247, in the hope that it might attract pilgrims and become the centre of a relic cult to rival Sainte Chapelle, which the French king Louis IX had endowed with a variety of the more traditional and less contentious christ relics. Now, blood relics were common among the saints (particular saints, such as Januarius or Genarro, were famous for their blood) but the blood of christ held an altogether different significance thanks to its supposed real presence in the wine of the eucharist. A strand of eucharistic theology insisted that christ's blood was never present on earth as sloshy red stuff after the resurrection, but rather it existed as the true essence of his humanity, whatever that meant. As such the notion that people could own actual vials of the stuff in its original form was rather contentious. Similarly, the theology of the resurrection stipulated that jesus was resurrected whole, which gave a certain degree of doubt as to whether he actually could have left bits of himself behind.

Many medieval authors weighed in on this tricky problem. Some, such as Robert Grosseteste and Gerhard of Cologne, were commissioned to give a learned opinion by interested parties - churches who had acquired relics and wanted it demonstrated that they were legitimate. Others, such as Aquinas, had less partisan involvement. There was even an official commission set up in 1448 by the theology faculty of Paris to pronounce on the issue, thanks to the prominence of a blood relic owned by the Parisian chapter of the Franciscans. Almost all authors tried to use the physiological theories of contemporary medical thought as well as the theological framework to come to their answer, citing Hippocrates, Galen, the Pantegni of Constantine Africanus and Avicenna's Canon with great care.

Needless to say no consensus was ever reached. Still, if you choose to go with the faction who believed that blood relics of christ are indeed possible, the nearest surviving sample is probably at the Basilica of the Holy Blood in Bruges, Belgium, so you don't even have to go grubbing round in the holy land with a packet of cotton swabs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_of_the_Holy_Blood

Other Comments by Cartomancer

28. Comment #394826 by H u d on July 9, 2009 at 3:37 pm

 avatar
It was wonderfully awful.


That's theology.


kenotic theology


This is just a deffensive technique

Other Comments by H u d

29. Comment #394827 by j.mills on July 9, 2009 at 3:46 pm

 avatarRe #27: The Basilica of the Holy Blood in Bruges is featured in a hilarious scene of the movie, er, In Bruges. Go watch the film, it's great.

Ta for the informative post, Carto.

Other Comments by j.mills

30. Comment #394829 by Steve Zara on July 9, 2009 at 3:50 pm

You have, I assume quite unwittingly, stumbled upon a rather vexed piece of later medieval theological disputation there.


Not really unwittingly - I had strong suspicions!

Surely during his life Jesus, if in any sense human, would have left all kinds of traces behind. Milk teeth. Hair. Skin cells. Toenail clippings.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

31. Comment #394830 by Cartomancer on July 9, 2009 at 3:53 pm

 avatarI don't know of any claims to possess holy milk teeth, hair or toenails, but there have been several alleged relics which claim to be jesus's actual circumcised foreskin...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

Other Comments by Cartomancer

32. Comment #394832 by HughCaldwell on July 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm

I wonder if any church has a phial of the Messiah's semen.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

33. Comment #394834 by SurfDude on July 9, 2009 at 4:10 pm

JesusJizz™ **

** Not quite as potent as his dad's, or HolySpiritSpunk® (or is it the same thing?)

Other Comments by SurfDude

34. Comment #394836 by j.mills on July 9, 2009 at 4:47 pm

 avatarHoly Y-Chromosome, SurfDude! That's blasphemy!

Other Comments by j.mills

35. Comment #394839 by HughCaldwell on July 9, 2009 at 4:54 pm

Where the Messiah's semen went is something for evolutionary theologians to work out.

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

36. Comment #394843 by SurfDude on July 9, 2009 at 5:26 pm

j.mills -

Not as blasphemous as this .....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

Other Comments by SurfDude

37. Comment #394844 by SurfDude on July 9, 2009 at 5:38 pm

HughCaldwell,

According to Dan Brown, there should be millions of Jebus' descendants alive today. Would any evolutionary theologian even countenance such an idea?

Other Comments by SurfDude

38. Comment #394845 by MaxD on July 9, 2009 at 5:40 pm

 avatarHugh,
I believe Jesus did hang out with prostitutes. That is a place for these theologians to begin. Perhaps bible codes can indicate where spillage occurred? Jesus did seem to have a foot fetish....

Other Comments by MaxD

39. Comment #394848 by Enlightenme.. on July 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm

 avatarGet in touch with the Canadian PM dudes, he stuffed some Jeezdna in his pocket the other day.

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

40. Comment #394856 by Hellene on July 9, 2009 at 8:02 pm

Any fool knows that the virgin goddess Artemis, had her purest of followers, Hippolytus, resurrected by her father Dias (Zeus). He went to Italy after that and established temples in the honor of Artemis.

It's amazing to me how badly the story has been mangled...

Other Comments by Hellene

41. Comment #394857 by HKSARblog on July 9, 2009 at 8:12 pm

Wonderful, wonderful feedback from Dan Dennett!

I know I keep pushing for it (apologies), but there is a need for this site to maintain a list or database of such Christian apologists with references and links. From Dan Dennett’s two letters alone, we have:

Philip Clayton, Professor at Claremont School of Theology in California, United States.

J. Wentzel van Huyssteen, a Professor of Theology at Princeton Theological Seminary, United States.

Dr. Denis Alexander, theologian, Cambridge University, England.

Father Dr. Fraser Watt, evolutionary Christologist (and a big Templeton grantsman), Cambridge University School of Divinity, England.

Pascal Boyer (?)

Harvey Whitehouse (?)

David Sloan Wilson (?) [I’m not sure where he stands regarding religion, but I know his evolutionary views are somewhat controversial.]

Michael Ruse (?), Christian apologist


And perhaps some more for RDnet’s Database of Lecturers (which sadly only has five lecturers currently listed):

Professor Robert Hinde FRS

Ian McEwan

Other Comments by HKSARblog

42. Comment #394858 by Alternative Carpark on July 9, 2009 at 8:15 pm

 avatarAll this talk of God's sacred seed reminded me of the song

"Cum" oops "Kum ba yah, my lord, kum ba yaaah".

Damn, now I'm reminded of high school and young Roger Draper's hearty rendition of this hymn at school mass:

The Spirit lives to set us free,
walk, walk in the light.
He binds us all in unity,
walk, walk in the light.

Walk in the light, walk in the light, walk in the light,
walk in the light of the Lord.


replacing the word "walk" with "wank"..

Apologies for lowering the tone.

Well done professors Dennett and Hinde.


Ohhhhhh looooord kum ba yaaaaaah.

Other Comments by Alternative Carpark

43. Comment #394859 by NakedCelt on July 9, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Boyer presented a persuasive case that the “packaging” of the stew of separable and largely independent items as “religion” is itself ideology generated by the institutions, a sort of advertising that has the effect of turning religions into “brands” in competition.
Quoted for truth. You don't need to believe in a sky-father to give your loved ones gifts at midwinter (for instance).
Ruse declared that while he is an atheist, he wishes that those wanting to explain religion wouldn’t start with the assumption that religious beliefs are false. He doesn’t seem to appreciate the role of the null hypothesis or the presumption of innocence in trials.
I can see what Dennett means, but I can also see what Ruse means. It doesn't happen very often that a belief arises or spreads because it is false. See above -- a "religion" is not a monolithic assertion of a single viewpoint, it's a package of various culturally transmitted beliefs and practices. If you want to explain religion you need to consider it in context; the specific false metaphysical claims it makes will always look weird when pulled out of the mix and examined in the cold light of day.

Other Comments by NakedCelt

44. Comment #394860 by j.mills on July 9, 2009 at 8:26 pm

 avatarHKSARblog, Pascal Boyer philosophises about religion (his Religion Explained is much praised by Dennett), he's not an apologist. And from the context of this article, it doesn't sound like Harvey Whitehouse is either. Being on the panel is not a damning offence in itself. :)

As for compiling a database of apologists (and their utterances?) - well, there are theology and divinity faculties and seminaries all over the world. It could be a biiiiiig list...

On the other hand, here's a complete list of apologists with anything interesting to say:




Other Comments by j.mills

45. Comment #394861 by HKSARblog on July 9, 2009 at 9:00 pm

j.mills. Nice one! Anyway, such a list on this site would be a good starting point for anyone, anywhere, to do initial background checks on public speakers.

As for Pascal Boyer (and Harvey Whitehouse), Dan Dennett said of their talks: "On the evolution of religion, [they] featured clear, fact-filled presentations." So I sensed some "positive" impression (and now I can go on my way, read their work and see for myself).

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46. Comment #394866 by Dr Doctor on July 9, 2009 at 9:57 pm

 avatarNakedCelt


I can see what Dennett means, but I can also see what Ruse means. It doesn't happen very often that a belief arises or spreads because it is false. See above -- a "religion" is not a monolithic assertion of a single viewpoint, it's a package of various culturally transmitted beliefs and practices. If you want to explain religion you need to consider it in context; the specific false metaphysical claims it makes will always look weird when pulled out of the mix and examined in the cold light of day.


Is there any scientific data showing a comparison of a religion's success or failure based on a coefficient of falsehood?

I'm not sure what Ruse, nor your, point is. Only specific religious claims will come into conflict with scientific reality, others will not come into conflict at all either because they make claims about something unknowable or because they make claims that are obviously true.

The latter clearly stands without the trappings of religion, so what is the word "religion" bringing to this particular party?

Clearly the claims that are counter-factual, metaphysical et al are the ones that are going to get held up. If they are core tenets, then the religion itself is going to get criticised by proxy. That is, where blasphemy is permitted...

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47. Comment #394869 by Roland_F on July 9, 2009 at 10:42 pm

Pascal Boyer’s book Religion Explained is a very interesting read. The roots of all human superstition, supernatural believes in dead ancestors, fairies and God s explained from an anthropologists.
Why humans as pattern seekers ‘need’ weird explanations, for example the termite infested bamboo hut is collapsing because of ancestors spirits got angry etc. And the more weird the story is of flying inner organs of witches throwing curses at people, resurrected saviors to atone for inherited sins and the like, the more likely is it to be remembered and spread as a meme.

Evolutionary Christology : Is the evolution hierarchy not already clear :at least for Catholics ? animals – humans – the pope - cherubim – seraphim – angels – archangels – Trinity God.
So the old Creationist questions about the missing link, or why are there still monkeys when there are humans – could be replied with :
why there are still humans if there is a pope ?
Or why is there a pope when there are angels ?
Or why are there angels when there is God ?
Or just turn this Evolutionary Christology Pyramid on his head : as there are still humans around there are no angels and no God !

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48. Comment #394871 by hoops mccann on July 9, 2009 at 11:06 pm

 avatar"I wonder: should “christology” be capitalized?"

Certainly!! As should "Evolutionary"! It can be shortened, though, to "EC" or "Ev-Crist".

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49. Comment #394879 by Shuggy on July 9, 2009 at 11:53 pm

 avatar31. Comment #394830 by Cartomancer on July 9, 2009
I don't know of any claims to possess holy milk teeth, hair or toenails, but there have been several alleged relics which claim to be jesus's actual circumcised foreskin...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce
And this guy knows where it is!

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50. Comment #394889 by PERSON on July 10, 2009 at 1:13 am

11. Comment #394790 by rod-the-farmer on July 9, 2009 at 12:32 pm
He's mixing up actual beliefs with social conveniences (*). Most people do, truth be told. It's not doing so that is unusual.

(*) Social, not public.

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