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Friday, December 22, 2006 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Komodo Dragon's Tale

by Richard Dawkins

An adult Komodo dragon, three yards long and a voracious carnivore, could be mistaken for a decent-sized dinosaur. Komodo dragons are actually giant monitor lizards (Varanus komodoensis) and they have not gone the way of the dinosaurs. Not yet at least, but they were one of the endangered species visited by Douglas Adams and Mark Carwardine in their enchanting Last Chance to See. They are confined to a handful of Indonesian islands, including Komodo itself and also Flores, home of the recently extinct Homo floresiensis on which they, and an even larger species of giant lizard, now extinct, perhaps preyed (if, that is, H.floresiensis was a real species of miniature human at all). Komodo dragons still eat humans when they get the chance. It has been suggested that the Komodo dragon is well named as the real-life origin of all our dragon myths, and it is certainly plausible that Chinese sailors would have brought back awestruck tales of them. They don't breathe fire but their mouths are so riddled with festering bacteria that one bite is fatal. Their preferred method of hunting is to deliver that fatal bite, then follow the prey around until it dies from the resulting bacterial infection, then eat it. Komodo dragons are topical as I write (Christmas 2006) because of an interesting paper in Nature (Vol 444, 28th December 2006) presenting evidence that they can reproduce parthenogenetically ('virgin birth'). This is the subject of my Tale.

For a while, mysterious stories have been surfacing of captive females in zoos producing apparently fatherless offspring. For example, New Scientist reported on 25th April 2006 that Sungai, a female Komodo dragon in the London Zoo, now dead, laid fertile eggs which hatched into male offspring, despite not having seen a male for two and a half years. New Scientist offered two possible explanations. First, Sungai might have stored sperm in the way many insects do, and used it later. Second, Sungai might have cloned herself, producing offspring as genetically identical to her as her left foot is to her right. But isn't cloning ruled out by the fact that the young lizards born by 'virgin birth' were all male? True clones would be genetically identical to their mother, and wouldn't that mean they had to be female like her?

The answer is yes, but it is not quite such an obvious answer as you might think. In most vertebrates, sex is determined genetically, and clonal offspring would have to be of the same sex as their mother. But sex can be determined by non-genetic means, environmentally. In some fish species, males are rare and have harems. The females in the harem sort themselves out into a dominance hierarchy by fighting. If the male of the harem should die, the dominant female changes sex and takes over the harem. All males started out as females and later changed sex in this way.

No reptile does it in that way, but another kind of environmental trigger that can determine sex is temperature. This method of sex determination is quite common among reptiles, including crocodiles, tuataras (a 'living fossil' found only on islands off New Zealand), most tortoises and turtles, and a few snakes and lizards. In some lizard species, eggs that are incubated above a threshold temperature produce males, while colder eggs produce females. Presumably natural selection adjusts the threshold to achieve a 50/50 sex ratio on average, in the normal habitat of the species. One theory for what drove the dinosaurs extinct, now not much favoured, is that global warming led to their producing nothing but male offspring.

If Komodo dragons determined their sex by temperature, females who cloned themselves might produce sons if their eggs happened to be incubated above the threshold temperature. Unfortunately for this theory, however, sex determination in Komodo dragons is not done by temperature as in crocodiles, but by chromosomes, as in birds and mammals. This knocks on the head any suggestion that a female could produce sons by cloning. The clonally offspring of a female dragon would have the same sex chromosomes as her, and would therefore have to be of the same sex.

But New Scientist failed to mention a third possibility. Virgin birth can come about through 'selfing', as is common in plants, and that is not the same thing as cloning. Cloning, for instance in the famous sheep experiment, means making a new sheep (Dolly) from one of the diploid body cells of the old sheep (unnamed and unsung, poor thing). The two sheep in that experiment were equivalent to identical twins but of different ages, and they of course had to be of the same sex. Selfing is different. It is as though an individual mates with it. Two haploid (one set of chromosomes) cells from the same individual, one of them behaving like a sperm and the other like an egg, join together restore the diploid (doubled up) number of chromosomes. It doesn't have to happen like this, but if the two haploid cells that 'mate' have been formed by one haploid cell splitting into two, they will be identical to each other. The diploid baby will have a set of paired chromosomes in which every chromosome is identical to its pair, but not identical to the corresponding chromosomes of other babies in the clutch. The chromosomes of each baby, in other words, will be a set of matched pairs, but its siblings will each have a different collection of matched pairs. To use the genetic jargon, every baby will have 'zero heterozygosis' but in a different way from its siblings. And to put it another way, although the baby is diploid, with doubled up chromosomes, it might as well not 'bother' with the second of each chromosomal pair because it is identical to the first.

Now, what sex would the babies be, if they were the products of selfing? Here is where it gets interesting. If a woman reproduced by selfing, the child would have to be female. Female mammals have two X chromosomes while males have one X and one Y. Every human egg has an X chromosome, while sperms are of two kinds. 50% of sperms have a Y chromosome and the other 50% have an X chromosome. If an X sperm fertilizes an egg (necessarily X) the result is a female (XX). If a Y sperm fertilizes an egg, the result is a male (XY). You can quickly work out why this mechanism produces sons and daughters in equal frequency. And now, to answer the question about selfing. A human female has no Y-chromosomes. Every baby produced by selfing would have to be XX and therefore female.

But with some animals, such as birds and butterflies, the system works the other way around. Females are (the equivalent of) XY and males (the equivalent of) XX. They are actually called W and Z instead of Y and X, but the principle is the same. Now, think what the result would be if a female bird reproduced by selfing. She produces both Z egg cells and W egg cells. If a Z cell split and 'mated' with itself, the result would be ZZ and therefore male. Theoretically a W cell might split and 'mate' with itself to make a WW individual but that combination is unknown in nature (for good reasons which could occupy another Tale) and presumably would not survive. Therefore, if a female bird could reproduce by selfing, the offspring would all be male.

Komodo dragons are like birds in this respect. Males are ZZ and females are ZW. True clones of a female dragon would be ZW and therefore female. But if a female dragon reproduced by selfing, the surviving offspring would all be ZZ and therefore male. This is indeed the result observed. The hypothesis of selfing in Komodo dragons looks good.

The new paper in Nature adds powerful supporting evidence. Watts, Buley, Sanderson, Boardman, Ciofi and Gibson looked at the DNA of two female Komodo dragons, Flora in Chester Zoo and the already mentioned Sungai in London Zoo, and their parthenogenetic (all male) offspring. Exactly as expected, the babies within any one clutch were homozygous at all loci ('matched pairs' of chromosomes). Again as expected, they were not clonally identical to each other or to their mother but, again as expected, they did not have any genes not possessed by their mother. The genome of every baby, in other words, was a proper subset of its mother's genome, but a different subset from its siblings' genomes. The selfing hypothesis is upheld.

It has been suggested that, like some insects, Komodo dragons in the wild use sexual reproduction when they can, but females resort to virgin birth whenever they find themselves without a male. They are good swimmers capable of crossing from island to island. A female who found herself alone on an island could theoretically give asexual birth to sons, then mate with them to produce daughters as well as sons and thus colonize the new island.

The Nature paper's publication in Christmas week has given rise to predictable drollery in the newspapers, and it is probably no accident that Dembski has posted an article about it on his website. The curator of reptiles at Chester zoo and one of the authors of the Nature paper remarked: "Essentially what we have here is a 'virgin birth' and, because the eggs were laid back in May, the incubating eggs could hatch around Christmas time. We will be on the look out for shepherds, wise men and an unusually bright star in the sky over Chester Zoo." Christian apologists for Virgin Birth would be unwise to pin too many hopes on the Komodo dragon, however. The Virgin Mary being a mammal, whether she reproduced by cloning or by selfing, the result could only be a daughter. Jesus either had an earthly father, or Jesus was a woman.

Bizarrely, one evangelical Christian apologist, R J (Sam) Berry, Emeritus Professor of Genetics at University College, London, once suggested another way in which Mary could have given virgin birth to a son. Mary, he speculated, might have been a genetic male, with XY chromosomes. She appeared to be female because of a genetic inability to respond to testosterone. "If this happened, and if the ovum developed parthenogenetically, and if a back-mutation to testosterone sensitivity took place, we would have the situation of an apparently normal woman giving birth without intercourse to a son." Even Berry apparently didn't think much of his own hypothesis: "The mechanisms I have outlined are unlikely, unproven, and involve the implication that either Jesus or Mary (or both) were developmentally abnormal. My purpose in describing them is simply to reduce the assumption of incredibility that seems to dog the doctrine of the Virgin Birth." (Daily Telegraph, 21st November 2001). All a bit unnecessary, given that the entire legend of the Virgin Birth stems, in the first place, from a mistranslation of a Hebrew word meaning 'young woman' into a Greek word meaning 'virgin'. To see how easily this could happen, think of the English words 'maid' or 'maiden'. Berry is an extremely devout man, but his attempt to stretch science to fit scripture, especially mistranslated scripture, seems to be pushing the envelope of apologetics into uncharted waters.

A Merry Christmas to all our readers.

This Tale was specially written for our website at Christmas. It is not in The Ancestor's Tale, but it would have been if the facts reported here had been known two years ago.

Comments 1 - 49 of 49 |

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1. Comment #14416 by Jiten on December 22, 2006 at 11:09 am

 avatarA very interesting tale.

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2. Comment #14422 by John P on December 22, 2006 at 11:41 am

 avatarYes. A nice little addition to the Ancestor's Tale. Maybe he'll add it to later editions.

Other Comments by John P

3. Comment #14423 by G Bile on December 22, 2006 at 11:43 am

Like the rest of the 'tales' in 'The Ancestors tale' , the Komodo dragon tale gives yet an other insight in what is going on in our world and has been in the past. It is nice that Dawkins shares his knowlegde with us in this way.

It is also so much more interesting than all the 'religious tales' we have to wrestle through and have to waste our time with. But, alas ...

Other Comments by G Bile

4. Comment #14425 by BillySands on December 22, 2006 at 11:44 am

 avatarThe is an all female "species" of fish. Actually, it is a hybrid of the black molly Poecillia latipinna and the mosquitofish (Gambusia affinis). They rely on males from a related species to kick start the developmental process. The male has no genetic input in the offspring. The process is called gynogenesis.
Isn't the evolved world cool

Other Comments by BillySands

5. Comment #14430 by macronencer on December 22, 2006 at 12:01 pm

 avatarThat's extremely interesting! It comes around the right time for me, too, as it wasn't too long ago in my reading of The Ancestor's Tale that I passed the point where the Komodos would have joined (I'm actually as far as the Lancelets now).

Always happy to learn something new - I didn't know about selling, although I was aware that birds didn't do the "XY" thing.

Thanks for the extra Christmas present, Dr Dawkins!

Other Comments by macronencer

6. Comment #14432 by Jared on December 22, 2006 at 12:05 pm

 avatarThanks to Prof. Dawkins for the exclusive tale! An interesting read, to be sure.

Now I'm becoming extremely curious about the history and development of sex-determining chromosomes through evolutionary time. I wonder at which point the current 'systems' developed: before, or after the mammals' most recent common ancestor with the reptiles. I'd have some (quite likely rather naive) questions about the way we determine males and females if the reptilian heterozygous females and homozygous males were around first and mammalian homozygous females/heterozygous males developed after the 'split'!

This is why I value science! These sorts of questions would never arise from the spontaneous 'creation' of all animals and the whole 'Adam's rib' theory of the origin of human females!

Other Comments by Jared

7. Comment #14433 by Eamonn Shute on December 22, 2006 at 12:06 pm

 avatarThanks for the article Professor, I didn't understand what was going on with Flora until I read this article, now it is all clear.

Merry Christmas!

Other Comments by Eamonn Shute

8. Comment #14434 by Squirrel on December 22, 2006 at 12:36 pm

Thanks for the read! What a nice break from the usual worn out, threadbare excuses for arguments!

"The Virgin Mary being a mammal, whether she reproduced by cloning or by selfing, the result could only be a daughter. Jesus either had an earthly father, or Jesus was a woman."

If I'm not entirely mistaken, genomic imprinting would prevent such a thing from happening in the first place. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Other Comments by Squirrel

9. Comment #14436 by Richard Dawkins on December 22, 2006 at 12:37 pm

Thank you ldmiller for pointing out that 'selfing' has somehow, in every case, mysteriously, become 'selling'. I'm afraid I don't know how to fix it, but I'm hoping Josh will kindly do so soon. Apologies.

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

10. Comment #14445 by fun2bfree on December 22, 2006 at 1:24 pm

I loved this but there are some other problems (I think):

[quote]Selling is different. It is as though an individual mates with it.[/quote]

I suspect the last word should be "itself"

then in the same paragraph I wonder if there is a mistake:
[quote]... but if the two haploid cells that 'mate' have been formed by one haploid cell splitting into two, they will be identical to each other.[/quote]

If a haploid cell splits in two (I don't know what you call half a haploid cell) and then comes together it is not going to be diploid--it will be haploid....maybe what is meant here is if the two haploid cells that mate have been formed by on diploid splitting into two-..but then that would not explain the identical part.

Confused

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11. Comment #14447 by Andrew Charles on December 22, 2006 at 1:32 pm

I think that the virgin birth story was a concious addition into the gospel story by their author/s to fit or shape the story into the graeco-roman model, rather than the result of a mistranslation.

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12. Comment #14449 by Martin on December 22, 2006 at 1:34 pm

 avatarA very interesting article indeed. After I finished it one question popped up, and I haven't figured out the answer.

In the article Prof. Dawkins wrote:
A human female has no Y-chromosomes. Every baby produced by selling would have to be XX and therefore female.

I was wondering, how about woman that have a genetic condition called chromosomal mosaicism? I once read an article about a female German athlete having XXY chromosome made-up cells. I'm just a layman, and I wonder if women with chromosomal mosaicism could have a son by selfing? I'd probably be drawing the wrong conclusion in thinking she could, so could anyone enlighten me?

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13. Comment #14454 by Friend Giskard on December 22, 2006 at 1:57 pm

 avatarThis piece of prose does not meet Richard's usual high standards. I had to read to sixth paragraph about ten times before I understood it. There are too many ambiguous pronouns - it, its, they. I think Richard should have got someone to read this through before publishing it, or left it in a drawer for a day or two before re-reading it himself.

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14. Comment #14456 by BillySands on December 22, 2006 at 2:18 pm

 avatarInteresting point Martin. Presumably it could give XY if a haploid X cell fused with a haploid Y cell. That may explain why she had a beard in the life of Brian:-), but as Andrew points out, the virgin birth was made up anyway

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15. Comment #14458 by Martin on December 22, 2006 at 2:23 pm

 avatarBillySands, you're right. I've looked it up, and it's actually in the bible.

Prof. Richard Dawkins wrote:
Jesus either had an earthly father, or Jesus was a woman.

Matthew wrote:
1 A record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.
David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah's wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[a] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abiud,
Abiud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Eliud,
15 Eliud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

He definitely had an earthly father: Joseph, son of ... son of David ... son of Abraham.

Nevertheless, I'd like it if anyone could enlighten me (see comment #14449)

Other Comments by Martin

16. Comment #14459 by fun2bfree on December 22, 2006 at 2:24 pm

XXY would still be phenotypically male- Klinefelter's syndrome...interestingly the XXY is the explanation for how you can have a tricolored Caleco cat which is male...I think it goes something like this:
on the X is the code for blackot it is not turned on so no color is present or white--
or it can be for Brown or off (white)
so XX- if one parent gave black X and one Brown X then the different follicles are black, brown or off (white) three colors so almost all tricolor Calecos are females...see below
XY white and black or white and Brown since only one type of X provided--so all males can only be 2 colors EXCEPT for Klinefelter's Kitties..which have Y --so they have to be male--but can have two different colored X's

Other Comments by fun2bfree

17. Comment #14463 by Riley on December 22, 2006 at 2:45 pm

 avatarAre mammals with an XXY chromosome coupling infertile? or is it possible for them to have offspring?


--

Other Comments by Riley

18. Comment #14464 by seals on December 22, 2006 at 2:51 pm

 avatar"then in the same paragraph I wonder if there is a mistake:
[quote]... but if the two haploid cells that 'mate' have been formed by one haploid cell splitting into two, they will be identical to each other.[/quote]

If a haploid cell splits in two (I don't know what you call half a haploid cell) and then comes together it is not going to be diploid--it will be haploid....maybe what is meant here is if the two haploid cells that mate have been formed by on diploid splitting into two-..but then that would not explain the identical part."

A picture is worth 1000 words, it might be better in diagramatic form. I took it to mean that the haploid cell chromosomes double (mitosis? meiosis?) as it divides to make two haploids both identical to the original, and so when the two cells come back together, they create a diploid? i could be very easily be wrong though... anyways, fascinating about ZZ/ZW and XX/XY. I always wonder why bird chromosomes are the other way round ( in the same way as i wonder why most 4-legged animals walk with the diagonally opposite legs moving together but for some, eg the camel if i recall, it's the two legs on the same side that move together - why?)

Would xxy be a woman? surely that should contravene athletics rules!

selling/selfing - it sounds like the spellchecker has put in the more common word.

Other Comments by seals

19. Comment #14492 by mummymonkey on December 22, 2006 at 5:14 pm

Re comment #14425 by BillySands

That's a fascinating fish.

The Amazon Molly (Poecilia formosa) is thought to have originated as a result of hybridization between P. latipinna and P. sphenops.

In the northern part of its range, P. formosa mates with males of P. latipinna; in the southern part with P. sphenops.

Offspring are effectively clones of the female as no genetic material is used from the male. The male's sperm is required only to trigger embryo development.

Other Comments by mummymonkey

20. Comment #14503 by Mel Z on December 22, 2006 at 7:22 pm

 avatara fascinating article. and a more plausible explanation than any "god did it!" could ever imagine. Thank you professor for utilizing science to explain what would otherwise be called miracles

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21. Comment #14510 by lpetrich on December 22, 2006 at 10:08 pm

 avatarAs to dragon myths, there are plenty of other reptiles to inspire them, like snakes and crocodiles. The bite of a venomous snake can be VERY painful, and crocodiles are predators that can easily grow larger than a Komodo Dragon.

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22. Comment #14525 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 2:21 am

Comment #14458 by Martin

"He definitely had an earthly father: Joseph, son of ... son of David ... son of Abraham."

That is certainly in Matthew's genealogy.

The other issue is that Jesus had an older brother James so Mary could hardly have been a virgin when Jesus was conceived as there is no suggestion that James was also a virgin birth.

There is quite a strong school of thought, even in (non fundamentalist) theological circles, that Jesus was the result of Mary having been raped by a Roman soldier.

Other Comments by Aussie

23. Comment #14529 by canicula on December 23, 2006 at 2:53 am

 avatarPythagoras' mother was supposed to be a virgin. He also reputedly died and came back to life, although his followers record that he actually hid in a cave for three days.

Other Comments by canicula

24. Comment #14530 by BillySands on December 23, 2006 at 3:06 am

 avatarHi mummymonkey,
Thanks for mentioning Poecillia formosa. I knew there was a naturally occuring one, but could never remember its name.

martin,
If you want a laugh, check the genealogy of Jesus in luke 3. It is VERY different

Other Comments by BillySands

25. Comment #14535 by down_under on December 23, 2006 at 3:51 am

I think the Dragon myth came from a number of different factors including Komodo Dragons.

However,

It is also important to remember that the Ancient Chinese used to dig up dinosaur bones for medicine, and (you cant really blame them for the mistake) thought they were the bones of Dragons.

And a new theory for explaining the ledgend of Saint George and the Dragon is that an explorer bought back a crocodile from Egypt which George then went and killed, all witnesses (including Geroge himself) would easily mistake this huge reptile for a Dragon, given the timeline.

Other Comments by down_under

26. Comment #14538 by down_under on December 23, 2006 at 3:56 am

And there is the interesting fact that up until around 10,000 years ago the Australian Aboriginals lived alongside the huge monster that was (Megalania Prisca) (sorry folks dont know how to do italic!) the largest lizard EVER to have lived! (Dinosaurs were not actually lizards).

Other Comments by down_under

27. Comment #14540 by Martin on December 23, 2006 at 4:06 am

 avatarComment #14525 by Aussie:
"The other issue is that Jesus had an older brother James so Mary could hardly have been a virgin when Jesus was conceived as there is no suggestion that James was also a virgin birth."

I knew he had a brother called James. But the virgin birth advocates claim that James was Jezus' halfbrother (a son of Joseph from an earlier marriage, but not of Mary), or that James was younger than Jesus. The first claim is easily debunked: if James really is Jesus' halfbrother, than Joseph MUST be Jesus' father (instead of God). If not, James would not be Jesus' brother at all.

Other Comments by Martin

28. Comment #14546 by BillySands on December 23, 2006 at 4:48 am

 avatarMartin, isn't amazing how christians try an iron out biblical difficulties by inventing evidence and convoluted "thinking"

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29. Comment #14555 by ddovala on December 23, 2006 at 7:30 am

Thank you, Professor Dawkins, for writing such an elegant tale. The fact that you would publish it here, instead of hiding it away for another addition of your book (even if you include it in later additions) shows that your first priority is the spread of sound scientific knowledge. I appreciate this very much!

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30. Comment #14570 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod on December 23, 2006 at 10:14 am

I read about the virgin birth Komodo dragon on the Sky News (SN) web site and on New Scientist (NS) web site. I had wondered about the sex of the babys (which wasn't mentioned in either site) but I'd forgotten about the WZ of reptile sex determination so I would have misunderstood anyway!

When NS refered to 'cloning' I assumed they ment 'selfing'.

What interested me about the SN article was the fact that London Zoo hadn't realized that they had anything special. This says a lot about that once great institution: 'The London Zoo dragons hatched earlier this year, but keepers had no idea they had witnessed scientific history' (http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13558119,00.html).

Other Comments by CreatedAnAthiestByGod

31. Comment #14638 by DavidJGrossman on December 23, 2006 at 10:07 pm

 avatarI think you are overlooking the obvious answer. That komodo dragon is the son of God. Our messiah. All hail the scaled one, our Lord!

- Dave

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32. Comment #14694 by Andrew Roberts on December 24, 2006 at 11:37 am

 avatarRe. comment 18 by Riley: this is stretching the memory cells a bit but I recall that all the human "females" that are not XX are infertile. I also recall that there are females that are XY, called testicular feminization syndrome. They are morphologically female but genetically male. It is now called complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. See http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=14430 for a full description.

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33. Comment #14695 by Andrew Roberts on December 24, 2006 at 11:59 am

 avatarA bit off the topic but of interest (certainly to me!). The Seychelles warbler which inhabits a few islands of the Seychelles archipelago can influence the sex of its offspring, 90% female in a high quality territory to 80% male in a low quality territory. It is one of the few vertebrates with chromosomal sex determination (CSD) that can do this. The mechanism is poorly understood! See the Nature paper at http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v88/n2/full/6800018a.html for a fuller description and other examples.

Other Comments by Andrew Roberts

34. Comment #14703 by Veronique on December 24, 2006 at 3:31 pm

 avatarRiley Comment 18

I used to breed Siamese cats many decades ago. Those of us in the trade where, at that time, trying to breed a red-point Siamese. I had also had cats all my life. The tortoishells - tricolours were female. If, however a tortie male was born, he was invariably infertile. The same applied to the red or red tabbys. The reds were usually male, if a red female was born, she was invariably infertile.

I don't know if that helps, but at it is experienced and evidenced!

Other Comments by Veronique

35. Comment #14840 by JohnC on December 25, 2006 at 7:43 pm

 avatarA couple of thoughts on the "mistranslation" theory of the Virgin Birth. While it is true the Hebrew almah does in fact most accurately translate as young woman, it is likely that the tradition of Mary's virginity independently existed as part of the oral tradition that sprung up in the 50 or so years that separated the crucifixion from the writing of Matthew. Virgin birth was an existing mythos among the audience, and would have been a suitable trope for the Jesus movement to attach to the legend.

More generally, the purposes of the nativity stories in Matthew and Luke were not in any sense historical but primarily theological, ie to identify the birth of Jesus as the fulfilment of various prophecies and thus legitimate claims of his Messianic status. The lack of interest in the precise historical details explains why the two accounts contradict each other and the few independently known historical facts. Outside the nativity accounts, it is clearly and repeatedly stated that Jesus was from Nazareth (indeed it is one of those details that lends credence to the notion that there actually was a historical Jesus).

Note also that the treatment of the prophecies themselves are more poetic and pedagogical than literal or analytic, as indeed is the case in the accounts given of Jesus' own discussion of prophecies later on in the Gospels. To take the Isaiah Messiah prophecy as an example: the actual Masoretic text can only be read as stating that Immanuel is the actual name of the child, not a title; and the prophecy is in the past tense, implying that the saviour had already been born at the time of Isaiah and was presumably going to liberate Israel from the Assyrians. So the birth of Jesus "fulfils" the prophecy by being its echo in contemporary, Roman times.

There are of course many debates about these matters, but the point is that outside Christian apolegetics the nativity stories must be seen as as a weaving together of theological concerns and folk traditions that had arisen in the early Jesus movement, with their subsequent "meaning" given something resembling logical coherence by the interpretative labours of the emerging church, including the exclusion of an unknown number of alternative accounts.

Other Comments by JohnC

36. Comment #14933 by jeremynel on December 26, 2006 at 11:35 pm

"But New Scientist failed to mention a third possibility..."

Does that imply that RD is the first to (albeit theoretically) work out how the Komodo Dragon reproduced so?

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37. Comment #14938 by Richard Dawkins on December 27, 2006 at 1:56 am

Comment #14933 by jeremynel on December 26, 2006 at 11:35 pm . "But New Scientist failed to mention a third possibility..." Does that imply that RD is the first to (albeit theoretically) work out how the Komodo Dragon reproduced so?

Oh dear, no, how embarrassing that you should think so. I though I made it clear that I was reporting on a new paper in Nature. I mentioned New Scientist as the background -- what we thought before the new paper in Nature came along. Admittedly, I found the Nature paper a bit hard to understand. Had to read between the lines to work out what the authors were saying. Having done that work, I thought it would be a good idea to pass on the results. But there is nothing new in my article. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Richard

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38. Comment #14941 by seals on December 27, 2006 at 2:45 am

 avatarDuh! never thought about it before, but why do they give these genealogies for Jesus via Joseph etc in the bible, whilst claiming a virgin birth? Surely any genealogy given should be for Mary?

If James was Jesus older half brother, maybe Mary then "became" a virgin a bit like Doris Day ;)

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39. Comment #14943 by Jiten on December 27, 2006 at 3:04 am

 avatarSurely this is an error : ...one haploid cell splitting into two,...

A haploid cell cannot split into two.Shouldn't that read ...one diploid cell splitting into two...?

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40. Comment #14945 by jeremynel on December 27, 2006 at 3:51 am

Thanks for clearing things up, Prof, and for a wonderful article. FYI: if you do get to read this, The God Delusion has been one of the Top 5 best-selling books in the major bookstore chain in South Africa (www.exclusivebooks.co.za) for months now. Keep up the magnificent work - it truly does inspire others. :)

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41. Comment #14950 by JohnC on December 27, 2006 at 6:17 am

 avatarSeals, of course the genealogies make no sense from a modern point of view (as well as contradicting each other). But the question is what were the authors of Matthew and Luke trying to achieve? The object was to place Jesus within the House of David, as per Messianic prophecy, but as a patrilineal society this could only be done through the father (even if the son was adoptive, as was also true for slaves, which is why an important part of the story was the angel convincing Joseph not to cast Mary aside).

So similtaneously propounding the genealogies and the Virgin Birth is a logical contradiction for us, but clearly not a concern for them. Rather it is a compelling demonstration that the interests of the Gospel writers were theological, not empirical or logical. This should give any reader pause for thought when trying to read the nativity stories as some kind of historical document.

It also goes to explaining why the origin of the Virgin Birth involves more than simply a translation mistake - the blurring of lines between the historical and mythic was a strength not a weakness for the early Jesus movement as it sought to claim the prestige of Jewish monotheism while disconnecting it from its ethnic exclusivity.

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42. Comment #15536 by adish on January 1, 2007 at 6:09 am

Indeed, a great tale.
Having just finished re-reading The Selfish Gene, I wonder if the same mechanism of unfertilized eggs turning into males in Komodo dragons, is the same as what happens in bees and ants?

Thanks for all the great books (just this past year I read 3 RD books).
Adi

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43. Comment #15571 by seals on January 1, 2007 at 11:19 am

 avatarRe: comment 42 by JohnC: Thanks. Why am I not surprised... so much for gospel truth.

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44. Comment #16207 by GPROPERTY on January 5, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Can it be proven without a doubt or just by what we know. IS this not a forum where science and evolution lurke? Then that would mean that the first organisms that crawled from the muck would have stayed what they were forever unless they split like a cell. And if that were true they would have no sexual organs. Or they would all be male or all female. Unless one in a billion happened at the same time and a female and male crawled out at the same time? right? just trying to get it clarified.

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46. Comment #20677 by tmg on February 5, 2007 at 4:55 pm

Re: Comment #33 (Andrew)
Turner Syndrome (45,X) are usually infertile, but there is at least one documented case of a mother and daughter, each with TS. Some TS patients may give birth after hormone replacement therapy, and sexually active TS adolescents are counselled to take contraceptives.

"Life finds a way..."

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47. Comment #44175 by Enlightenme.. on May 23, 2007 at 2:25 pm

 avatarRichard mentions reptilian sex selection by temperature, could the K-T boundary comet have been a trigger rather than a full explanation?

Would sudden temperature instability cause Dino's to default to selfing, leading to shrinking of gene-pool, leading to opportunity for mammals?

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48. Comment #44205 by BillySands on May 23, 2007 at 4:00 pm

 avatarEnlightenme
It is a possiblity. Although some people think that changes favoured more males http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&list_uids=15066448&cmd=Retrieve&indexed=google

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49. Comment #44283 by trayser on May 24, 2007 at 4:44 am

 avatarAccording to a recent story, parthenogenesis has been discovered in sharks too..
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/22/AR2007052201405.html

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