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Friday, December 29, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document God's Enemies Are More Honest Than His Friends

by Sam Harris / On Faith

Reposted from:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com

samFor better or worse, I am partly responsible for the recent emergence of "atheism" as a topic of conversation. This is somewhat ironic, as I do not like the term and rarely use it. I did not, for instance, refer to myself as an "atheist" when I wrote The End of Faith—and yet this book is my most substantial contribution to the discourse of atheism.

As I pointed out in my subsequent book, Letter to a Christian Nation, we do not have a term for a person who rejects astrology, nor do we need one. If legions of astrologers sought to bend our public policy to their pseudo-science, we wouldn't need to dub ourselves "non-astrologers" to put them in their place. Words like "reason," "evidence," and "commonsense" would suffice. So it should be with religion. Still, one can only spend so much time quibbling over words, and there are far more consequential matters for believers and nonbelievers to discuss. Despite my misgivings about answering to the name "atheist," I consider the stigma now associated with the term to be entirely unwarranted. This stigma is, of course, the continuous product of the inane and unctuous declarations that still pass for argument among the faithful. One need look no further than the responses to this week's question to find some mesmerizing examples.

As to whether atheists and believers can have "a productive conversation," I am quite sure that the answer is "yes." But I am uncertain whether this conversation can bear fruit quickly enough to keep civilization from becoming fully engorged by Iron Age stupidity and horror. Our capacity for self-destruction is now spreading with 21st century efficiency, and yet our beliefs about how we should pass our days and nights on this earth still spring from ancient literature. This marriage of modern technology and preliterate superstition is a bad one, for reasons that I should not have to specify, much less argue for—and yet, arguing for them has taken up most of my time since September 11th, 2001, the day that nineteen pious men showed our pious nation just how beneficial religious certainty can be.

As someone who has spent the last few years publicly criticizing religion, I have become quite familiar with how people of faith rise to the defense of God. As it turns out, there aren't a hundred ways of doing this. There appear to be just three: either a person argues that a specific religion is true, or he argues that religion is useful, or he simply attacks atheism as intolerant, elitist, irrational, or otherwise worthy of contempt. Any conversation between atheists and believers is liable to fall into one or more of these ruts, or lurch back and forth between them:

1. Religion is true: There are two problems with arguing that any one of the world's religions is true. First, as Bertrand Russell pointed out a century ago, the major religions make incompatible claims about God and about what human beings must believe in order to escape the fires of hell. Given the sheer diversity of these claims, every believer should expect damnation on mere, probabilistic grounds. The second problem with arguing for the truth of religion is that the evidence for the most common religious doctrines is terrible or nonexistent—and this subsumes all claims about the existence of a personal God, the divine origin of certain books, the virgin birth of certain people, the veracity of ancient miracles, etc. For thousands of years, religion has been a haven for dogmatism and false certainty, and it remains so. There is not a person on this earth who has sufficient reason to be certain that Jesus rose from the dead or that Muhammad spoke to the angel Gabriel in his cave. And yet, billions of people profess such certainty. This is embarrassing. It is also dangerous—and we should stop making apologies for it.

2. Religion is useful: The argument that religion is useful is also problematic—and many of its problems are annunciated daily by bomb-blasts. Can anyone seriously argue that it is a good thing that millions of Muslims currently believe in the metaphysics of martyrdom? Is it really useful that so many Jews imagine that the Creator of the universe gave them a patch of desert on the Mediterranean? How psychologically beneficial has Christianity's anxiety about sex been these last seventy generations?

The worst problem with arguing for religion's usefulness, however, is that it is utterly irrelevant to the question at hand: the fact that a belief might be useful is no argument that it is true. While there are many ways to illustrate this, here is how I recently made the point in an online debate:

The fact that certain religious beliefs might be useful in no way suggests their legitimacy. I can guarantee, for instance, that the following religion, invented by me in the last ten seconds, would be extraordinarily useful. It is called "Scientismo." Here is its creed: Be kind to others; do not lie, steal, or murder; and oblige your children to master mathematics and science to the best of their abilities or 17 demons will torture you with hot tongs for eternity after death. If I could spread this faith to billions, I have little doubt that we would live in a better world than we do at present. Would this suggest that the 17 demons of Scientismo exist? Useful delusions are not the same thing as true beliefs.


3. Atheism is bad: Rather than argue for the truth of their religious beliefs, or produce evidence that religion is useful, apologists for God often attack atheism as though it were another religion. We are told that atheism is dogmatic, intolerant, irrational, etc. This homily has the virtue of being easy to remember and reproduce—and it now reverberates ceaselessly within the echo-chamber of American religious discourse. It relies, however, on a many false ideas about atheism. On Christmas eve of this year, I published an essay in the Los Angeles Times entitled "10 Myths — and 10 Truths — about Atheism" in which I attempted to set the record straight. I won't repeat these points here. Those interested can find this article on my website.

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1. Comment #15112 by 601 on December 29, 2006 at 2:16 am

 avatarI agree that "atheist" is an unfriendly moniker, but as the underdog in this contest, we can rarely set the frame of discourse.

Fear is the prime mover for most people, and fear of death probably tops the list (no surprise, since fear of death is very "naturally selected" through evolution for obvious reasons).

Challenging the faithful on their post-mortem fantasies is for them a psychological death blow.

For example, if one tries to convert an atheist to a theology she could listen with interest, ask questions, and honestly consider the option.

In contrast, even suggesting a sub-supernatural belief system to the believer evokes a fight or flight response.

Other Comments by 601

2. Comment #15113 by DerrickB on December 29, 2006 at 2:17 am

As always Sam provides absolute clarity and has an amazing ability to cut to the core issues. In another post I tried to illustrate how a child's belief in Santa Claus has lessons for understanding belief in Religion and an appropriate response. Applying Sam's identification of three arguments is interesting:
"Father Christmas is true" - argued by almost all children until they are mature enough to understand lack of evidence and unreasonable consequences.
"Believing in Father Christmas is useful" - It certainly adds to the charm of the festive season and helps parents.
"Not believing in Father Christmas is bad" - A child may take this position, but a mature adult would find it hard to argue this on behalf of other rational adults.

Here is my original post:

We all believed in Father Christmas. Our parents and our teachers told us to believe in Him. Father Christmas knew when we had been good or bad. He wanted each of us to petition Him with lists of our desires. Sometimes He answered, and sometimes He didn't. Still we didn't question Him - Santa has his reasons. We had to believe that He could be everywhere at one time. And still we didn't question Him – Santa has his mysterious ways. But gradually the questions began to nag and doubts became harder to ignore. Our brains developed and our eyes opened. We came to realise that evidence could challenge blind faith. And most of us learnt that becoming an adult means giving up the infant comforts of received beliefs and unquestioning obedience. Growing up offers the opportunity to apprehend and appreciate the unbounded wonders of the universe through open minds. Growing up uncovers our evolved abilities of reason and explanation. And so as grown-ups we carry a responsibility to help those who still fear the light of truth to break free from the cocoons of their childhood fantasies.

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3. Comment #15115 by Aussie on December 29, 2006 at 2:35 am

It is a pity Sam has to waste his time using his extraordinary talent explaining the obvious to those who refuse to understand.

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4. Comment #15120 by Joadist on December 29, 2006 at 3:07 am

Of all the things we might try to explain, the Obvious is always the most difficult.

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5. Comment #15122 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 3:31 am

 avatarTo comment on use of the term atheist: in the world I mainly inhabit domestically (inner-city Sydney) and professionally (newspapers) the word atheist is rarely heard. As far I know the great majority of people with whom I mix have no belief in a creator god, but the matter is rarely a topic of conversation. It is being a believing Christian that is anomalous and requires a label to pigeonhole our perplexity that so-and-so is (voice lowers) an Anglican, or whatever, but otherwise seems a sensible person. These are cases of genuine cognitive dissonance for us.

One of the commercial television stations screens a couple religious broadcasts (Benny Hinn, etc) at around 4.30am week nights and a few more than that on Sunday morning in the same time slot. It seems you must be an insomniac if you want to see your fantasies discussed on TV.

The federal Opposition in Parliament recently elected a new leader, and virtually every commentator made the point that the fact he is known as a practicing Christian had actually been on balance something of an obstacle in this rise to the top. As it turns out, I have yet to hear him utter the word Jesus and his values would have him branded a kissing cousin of a communist in the good old U S of A.

I am not claiming that my little patch of the world is representative of anything other than itself, but the point is that in such an environment the term atheist is actually more redundant than anti-astrologer, since there seem to be many more people who regularly glance at their "stars" than those who would admit to attending a church or praying. So atheism withers with organised religion, and in this context providing fertiliser for one also provides sustenance for the other. But matters are clearly different elsewhere.

Other Comments by JohnC

6. Comment #15124 by He-man Daunted World on December 29, 2006 at 3:50 am

A new opinion piece I just found (possibly the worst one yet):
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20983690-5007146,00.html

"Godless bigots beyond belief

NARROW-minded atheistic jihadists will never understand non-material realities such as truth, beauty, justice, love and God, writes Bill Muehlenberg."


This was in response to the God delusion and an aussie journalist's christmas column
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,20971575-5006029,00.html

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7. Comment #15125 by Ole on December 29, 2006 at 3:57 am

 avatarSam, good article!

I don't know if you look in here, so maybe I should post this on your website or send you an email... anyway here we go..

You said: September 11th, 2001, the day that nineteen pious men showed our pious nation just how beneficial religious certainty can be.

(I won't go into all the conspiracy theories about 911, but only look at the hijackers.)

  • Do we really know what happened with those men?
  • Should we not question this also?
  • What do we really know about Mohamed Atta and the other hijackers?
  • What are urban legends?
Btw, this one about Atta is false: http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/atta.htm

Ole

P.S.
Sam, I've read your books, seen you on documentaries, read your articles, etc.
I really like your clear thinking, so these questions are only a minor thing.

Other Comments by Ole

8. Comment #15128 by AdrianB on December 29, 2006 at 4:04 am

 avatar6. Comment #15124 by He-man Daunted World on December 29, 2006 at 3:50 am

In response to the loveley opinion you brought our attention to. Have you ever noticed that nearly all the attacks on RD come from people in the paid employment of religion?

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9. Comment #15129 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 4:10 am

 avatarA little while ago I was accused by a friend of calling myself an Athiest because it was 'trendy' to do so. I thought to myself "Wow, we must be getting somewhere at last!" ;)

Other Comments by Luthien

10. Comment #15130 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:14 am

 avatarFYI@6, Muehlenberg is not just a lecturer at a number of theological colleges (and a Phd candidate) but a notorious right-wing rogue and homophobe to boot. To give you some flavour of his publishing activities, they include: attacking the president of the Australian Medical Association for supporting lesbian parenting; describing the Lian Neeson Kinsey film as dangerous and frightening; and joining the McGrath attack on RD (Dawkins God) in a review last year that contained such revealing titbits as "ID has landed some telling blows on an already shaky evolutionary edifice".

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11. Comment #15134 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:29 am

6. Comment #15124 by He-man Daunted World on December 29, 2006 at 3:50 am
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20983690-5007146,00.html


"THANKS, Jill Singer, for picking Christmas to launch your atheist jihad."

In an Australian newspaper! As an Aussie, I was about to comment on JohnC's post, as being spot on in relation to this country. Having just had a debate on another board today, in reguard to being labeled an atheist, as well as the connotations of that label insinuated by the religious. John's post had reminded me, that we are quite lucky here in that reguard. Now this Herald Sun article!
Are we being invaded, John?

Other Comments by Nikki

12. Comment #15135 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:30 am

 avatar"Have you ever noticed that nearly all the attacks on RD come from people in the paid employment of religion?"

Well as a simple matter of fact, I don't think that's true (but a simple check through the archive here would settle the matter). What I find interesting is that there seems to be a layer of the intelligensia, particularly in Britain, that have decided RD's critque represents some kind of "poor form" or breach of etiquette. Certainly there have been an extraordinary number of ad hominem attacks, of which the double page spread in the Times is only the most recent. It reminds me of the extraordinary lengths some people went to in order to paint Steve Gould as some kind of second-rate thinker and closet Marxist. I think it has something to do with disliking scientists being able to speak directly to the public rather through this self-appointed, paternalistic elite, who think they are the best judges of what the masses should know on controversial subjects.

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13. Comment #15136 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:38 am

 avatarNikki, I worked for News Ltd for 13 years and I can tell you that they positively seek out grubs like Muehlenberg to spice things up, particularly this time of year. Ironically, though, there are probably fewer believers working for News mastheads than for Fairfax. (BTW, it was the Herald Sun - home of Andrew Bolt - not the Sun Herald, the Fairfax sunday.)
Added: I should say that they actually don't much care about the topic, which is why they prefer people who can write preposterous but provocative nonsense on a wide range of subjects. The problem with Christianity for them is that no one cares, unless there is a sex scandal or some other shenanigans attached.

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14. Comment #15139 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:58 am

13. Comment #15136 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 4:38 am

"I can tell you that they positively seek out grubs like Muehlenberg to spice things up"

I considered that possibility after I posted. I am in Queensland, and mostly stick to The Australian or ABC Online, so I'm a little out of touch with the newspaper syndications. I feel a little better :)

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15. Comment #15141 by blackbeauty on December 29, 2006 at 5:05 am

If one were to develop a strong faith in an idea, a belief, a way of life, a philosophy or in a person, one could, unconsciously or consciously, end up modelling one's whole life based on this strongly held conviction. This could gradually develop into a passionate devotion resulting in a commitment. Belief in god or a religious faith falls into this category. A committed communist or an atheist could also be committed to his faith in the fundamental principles of communism or atheism, like a believer who believes in a creator.

Apparently, this form of passionate faith offers security and adds a sense of purpose to peoples' lives. Most people find it difficult to live without this investment in faith or hope or conviction or an idea or a philosophy to hold on to. The person in question could be intellectually capable and yet may not feel secure without one or more of the aforementioned crutches that offer him psychological or and emotional security.

In the past human beings devised various rituals and ceremonies to ground this unconscious and put various primal fears in temporary suspension. Fear of natural calamities, disease, decay, death, and this incomprehensible unknown, led man to seek a saviour or a creator that was seen as omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. This creator is seen as an entity, who is all-powerful, merciful, just and permanent in this perceptibly impermanent or transient world of matter and mind. When a calamity struck, man could petition his creator and ask for forgiveness, help, divine justice and mercy.

Sam Harris has a task for several lives to come before he can make people want to stand alone. God is the biggest addiction! The need for Religion seems almost as strong as a need for sex, some would forego sex to worship their idea/imaginary concept called God!
Good luck Sam!

SHREENIWAS AIYER , The Netherlands

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16. Comment #15142 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 5:08 am

 avatarAnd while I'm totally off-topic, it appears the Somali Islamists have disintegrated and lost control of the capital, Mogadishu. While it is too early to say what this means for the 15-year nightmare that has gripped Somalia, there are at least some glimmers of hope. The New York Times report includes the following:
"The Islamist leaders may have also miscalculated the appetite among Somalis for the harsh brand of Islam they were pushing. On Thursday, to celebrate the departure of the Islamists, many Mogadishu residents stuffed their mouths with khat, a mildly narcotic plant that the Islamists had outlawed, and cranked up Western music, which some clerics had tried to ban."
Now while I don't think drugs, sex and rock'n'roll provide any kind of answer to the problems of this ravaged country, this is surely better than stoning to death those who fail to pray 5 times a day.

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17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 5:57 am

 avatarI'm concerned at the recurring notion that the term 'atheist' has become so stigmatised and nasty that people who are atheists should shy away from it to avoid stigmatising themselves. It seems to me that as long as we shun the word it will continue to be an undeniable insult to be levelled at us. Terms like Bright and Freethinker, whatever their other merits, are chiefly used as euphemisms.

Better, surely, to reclaim the word and wear it with pride? This tactic has been used to good effect by various groups in he past.

The point is that 'atheist' is a technically correct term for someone who rejects the god hypothesis, and trying to be one but still reject the simple, common, descriptive word smacks of weakness, cowardice and even hypocrisy.

Atheism has a proud tradition going back as long as religion itself, and includes some of history's finest thinkers. Using the term confronts religion magical thinking head-on in a way that the other terms don't. Among the godders, though, you may be sure that 'Brights' and 'Freethinkers' are considered to be simply nasty ol' atheists anyway, with all the implied stigma.

'Agnostics' on the other hand, are no doubt considered by godders to be little more than stubborn believers-in-waiting, who have yet to open their hearts to (insert deity here). Perhaps they are, sometimes.

There is no way that the believers are ever going to like those who don't believe. They'll always hate 'em (even more than those who believe in different gods). Euphemistic terms may comfort nervous atheists, but to believers will mean only that the stigma of 'filthy atheist' continues to draw blood. The term is already applied to us; let's accept it and work on the stigma instead.

CD

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18. Comment #15148 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 6:17 am

17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis
"work on the stigma instead"
.
That is precisely what the debate, I had earlier, was based on. Mostly dealing with, the commonly perceived, historical atrocities and amoral labels.

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19. Comment #15149 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:25 am

 avatarChris,
Before you starting throwing around imputations of hypocrisy and cowardice, you might look at what people have actually said.
1. It is a matter of social context. In an effectively post-Christian society non-believers feel no compelling need to make the identification. Yes, magical thinking needs to be confronted, but quite frankly in my world crystals, ouiji boards and "alternative" therapies" are rather more pressing issues (matters that RD is intending to address in a major way in the new year) than organised religion. Do not read your own context (whatever that is) onto everybody else's situation.
2. Rejecting the god hypothesis is just that. It does not imply any philosophical or political positions that could be meaningfully united in any kind of "ism". Organising atheists is like herding cats precisely because a collection of people so defined is likely to disagree on virtually all other important issues. A site like this both illustrates this point but also partly disguises it, since Richard's own published work puts something of frame on matters (eg support of science, opposition to ID).
3. There may well be places (such as the US) where the identification of atheism is the correct strategic approach. There are probably others where Apostates Liberation may be a more suitable tactic. These are not questions of principle but of strategy, and I would be the last to declare that I know better than those who are actually engaged in the struggle. But what struggle? Surely it is about the kind of world we live in and how we behave towards each other, rather than some abstract concern about other people's subjective delusions.

ADDED: Nowadays I use secular humanist and sceptic, depending on context, as terms of identification for such discussions on my home turf.

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20. Comment #15150 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 6:29 am

 avatarRE: 17. Comment #15147 by Chris Davis

Spot on Chris!

Perhaps we should have "Athiest Pride" parades with floats celebrating scientific discoveries (I'm picturing giant 'double helix' balloons right now) and fancy dress ranging from "Greek philosoper" costumes to people dressed as Darwin ;)

If we are going to be Athiests let's ENJOY it!

Oh, and lighten up JohnC... go on, have a free 'double Helix' balloon and an 'I [heart] Athiests' sticker :P

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21. Comment #15151 by lpetrich on December 29, 2006 at 6:50 am

 avatarSam Harris's argument #2 is what I like to call Plato's Royal Lie argument, after the official religion that Plato had proposed for his Republic. His society's religion, Hellenic paganism, would be outlawed as full of bad examples like heroes lamenting and gods laughing.

Whatever can be said of Plato's quasi-theocratic "utopia", it must be said that Plato was much, much, much, much, much more honest than many religious apologists.

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22. Comment #15152 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:56 am

 avatarLuthien, agreed that our sense of humour is a precious commodity, and when it starts to slip away we know all is not well. But "cowardice" is pretty strong and serious language, and a serious reply is not inappropriate. By the way, the last person I know of to be charged with blasphemy in this state was a woman activist dressed as nun wearing a placard saying: "I was fucked by the Almighty Steel Prick of the Lord", which was a literal translation from a the writings of a famous saint (Teresa, from memory). She went on to become a renowned journalist who played a central role in exposing one of the most notorious cases of police corruption to ever hit the courts. Divine justice.

ADDED: I've now checked my memory (from more than 30 years ago) against the record and found that Wendy Bacon's final conviction was for obscenity, and that the placard quoted a poem of hers, which was nonetheless based on the aforementioned translation from the saint's writings. The Sydney Morning Herald reported recently:
Bacon has written that her trial was "for blasphemy as much as obscenity"; that, by wearing the nun's costume, she (and the other women who dressed up as nuns) was protesting about the extent to which the church was being protected by the state. She also defends the poem, calling it "a celebration of sexuality" and "an attack on a religion which protects virginity as something to be clung to at all costs".

The poem, by the way, was titled: Cunt is a Christian Word. I suspect that if someone tried the same thing in, for instance, Colorado Springs today they would probably be stoned to death.


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23. Comment #15153 by lpetrich on December 29, 2006 at 7:01 am

 avatarI marvel at Mr. Muehlenberg's comments, since counterevidence for them is so easy for him to find. Is he really serious that atheists are unconcerned with truth, beauty, justice, and love?

And furthermore, most of those "billions" of people have believed in (to him) false gods and false religions and false sects. And since the traditional doctrine of Xianity is that all those who reject the One True Sect of Xianity will suffer eternal damnation, I wonder if Mr. Muehlenberg is also believes that. And I wonder if he agrees with the eminent theologians Tertullian and St. Thomas Aquinas on how one of the joys of Heaven will be watching the torments of those sent to Hell.


And sorry if I seem to keep on spamming my reference to Plato's Royal Lie; I remember reading about it long ago in Bertrand Russell's History of Western Philosophy and being struck by its barefaced honesty.

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24. Comment #15156 by Luthien on December 29, 2006 at 7:46 am

 avatar22. Comment #15152 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 6:56 am

"Luthien, agreed that our sense of humour is a precious commodity, and when it starts to slip away we know all is not well. But "cowardice" is pretty strong and serious language, and a serious reply is not inappropriate."

I would say that it is definitely NOT "cowardice" to hide the fact that you are an atheist, for fear of the people around you, but that was not in question. What was in question was the following from Chris: "trying to be one but still reject the simple, common, descriptive word smacks of weakness, cowardice and even hypocrisy".

Strong words indeed (though I am quite sure they were not intended to offend anyone personally), but when a person is open enough to talk about their own non belief in god(s), why would they then say they were not an atheist? From your comments I would say that you are one of the people that have bought into (or at least been influenced by) the "belief" that Atheism is some sort of doctrine? Let me clarify for you, it is decidedly not! What I am is a person who does not believe in any God. When people ask me what I believe I do not repeat this cumbersome sentence to them, because there is a single handy word to describe it.

"By the way, the last person I know of to be charged with blasphemy in this state was a woman activist dressed as nun wearing a placard saying: "I was fucked by the Almighty Steel Prick of the Lord", which was a literal translation from the writings of a famous saint (Teresa, from memory)."

See, that was damn funny! ;)

Perhaps we should go around telling people we are atheists who files off our horns every morning, or better still, sew a big red "A" into all our clothing :P

(…sorry, I'll shut up now.)

Other Comments by Luthien

25. Comment #15161 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 8:06 am

 avatarJohnC

I'm sorry if you find my use of words like 'cowardice' and 'hypocrisy' offensive. I hope you realise that I don't intend these to apply in blanket fashion to all who shun the term atheist - I merely wished to point out that some atheists may be avoiding the term out of fear; and some may avoid the term despite knowing that it fits. Some atheists, in short, avoid this well-established, historically valid, technically accurate term because they allow the godders to set the context in which it's perceived.

And the other point I hoped to make is that the godders themselves are unlikely to recognise any subtleties - whatever they may be, I have no idea - between an atheist and a 'secular humanist', 'freethinker' or what-have-you. No more do I recognise any meaningful distinction between a 'Christian', a 'Lutheran' or a 'Presbyterian'. I have little knowledge and no interest in differences between these groups, because those differences have no bearing on my attitude to them - as opposed to their similarities, which count for everything.

And I'm sure that in the view of most godders of any stripe, an atheist and a Secular Humanist are seen as equally sinful, loathsome and damned. And why not?

If you wish to identify yourself as a Secular Humanist, let nothing stand in your way. Are you not, though, ipso facto an atheist too? And if you are, even though you may prefer the other term, would you reject the simpler characterisation? I do hope not.

I'm puzzled by your assertion that New Ageism - crystals, magic medicine and the rest - is a greater problem for society than religion. Seems to me that these little lunacies are the 'anything' in Chesterton's phrase, that people believe in when they drop deities. They're a problem, certainly, and must be addressed. But I'll consider them of primary importance only when the government introduces legislation to promote the teaching of astrology in special New Age schools.

Until then they're just another form of ignorance whose effects I can elect to avoid - unlike religion, which sets much of the baseline agenda for our laws and lives.

CD

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26. Comment #15163 by Chris Davis on December 29, 2006 at 8:36 am

 avatarOn the evidence it seems my use of 'cowardice' and 'hypocrisy' is being interpreted a great deal more strongly that I intended, and perhaps it's better if I withdraw the words. I was being hyperbolic, but it's clear that I lack the subtlety to get that across.

Please note that 'smacks of' is supposed to mean 'appears to be', not 'is'. The appearance is in the mind of the godders, and it's a perception, not reality. I still think that the use of the euphemisms rarely does us credit in religionists' eyes.

I'd also like to make it clear that there's nothing but sensible practicality in keeping the fact of one's atheism quiet in situations where being open about it could have serious effects on one's health, wealth and future. Unlike the godders, we have no divine imperative to declare our beliefs in the face of torture, and if I'm ever placed on a rack by inquisitors you may expect a very pious performance.

It may be, too, that I'm biased: I'm not a Humanist at all. I don't like humans very much, and their ability to inflict pain and death on each other over imaginary deities is one of the reasons. In matters of my religious affiliation, however, I'm an atheist - a third-generation atheist at that, and more smug than proud.

I've met a few people who were genuinely Good, and whose religion was partly instrumental in that goodness. I consider their beliefs to be a failing: they would have been better people if they were able to be Good without the drive to please a deity and win a heavenly prize. In all other cases I believe that most atheists are better people than those who cling to deities.

CD

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27. Comment #15164 by JohnC on December 29, 2006 at 8:47 am

 avatarChris, rest assured that on my little patch of the planet no-one is avoiding the term atheist because of negative consequences. Belief, or lack of belief, is generally not part of public discourse and when it arises there are often more relevant and specific designations at hand.

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28. Comment #15166 by Michael on December 29, 2006 at 9:01 am

Sam Harris' article is a wonderful model of clarity. In the face of such logic how can the religious hang on to their nonsense with such certainty?

The persistence and prevalence of religion (pace Australia thankfully from some of the posts) must have some biologically adaptive yield. I would suggest three possible routes.

1) Some need, yearn for the emotional crutch of a god and simply can't cope without it. this can go for some academics even, who go through the tortuosity of theology to try and rationalise the irrational.

2) It can be a powerful tool for group control. A part of a clans identity. Good for wars over the ages. 9/11 and the Haj are current examples.

3) It is a powerful tool for the power brokers to garner power (money) and influence. The 'late' Ted Haggard interviewed by RD is a good example. watching him manipulate his congregation was a nasty exercise of holding power and influence and clearly making loads of money. The Papacy is very wealthy by milking the poor!

Doesn't make them true but makes intellectual argument unlikely to win the day before we create the next major extinction, sadly.

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29. Comment #15167 by Pieter on December 29, 2006 at 9:08 am

i think we all need to sit down and watch the 2 parter south park on atheism (go god go) because a lot of the discourse is quite relevant to it. although the weak part of the show was its message that the world has to do away with all 'isms' (atheism is only an ism because it contains the word 'theism') However, the program's final call for rationality is merely an echo of our similar sentiments. But the source of the conflict (between the UAA and the UAL and the AAA, the otters) is about what atheists should call themselves.

Otters ho, and a happy new year to everyone.

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30. Comment #15169 by RichardC on December 29, 2006 at 9:10 am

The trouble with the word 'atheism' is that, while it is an etymologically correct description to imply absence of theism, many people assume it to mean someone who is certain that God doesn't exist, so naturally assume such certitude must reflect arrogance. I can understand that this is an easy mistake to make. Before reading TGD I called myself 'agnostic' because I realised I could not be certain that God did not exist. However, in TGD Dawkins defines agnosticism as a position which apportions equal likelihood to the existence or non-existence of God and criticises it accordingly. But I do not think that most self professing agnostics really subscribe to this completely neutral definition of agnosticism, nor do I think that most people understand it in this way, perhaps partly due to the long PR campaign mounted against it by religites! Some of the mud has stuck and now many if not most people think that the proper word for anyone who is not absolutely sure of God's non-existence is agnosticism. Such a definition would in reality embrace nearly all professed atheists. At what point I wonder on the belief/non-belief spectrum does an agnostic become an atheist?

It's all a bit of a semantic tangle. Now we have people coming up with 'bright' to join such traditionally used words as 'freethinker' and 'humanist'. Well 'bright' seems to imply that we are cleverer and 'brighter' than non brights, which is rubbing it in rather (even though it may be true in many cases!). I can well imagine that many visitors to this website would welcome the implied name-calling of using such a word, but I think its adoption would probably only help confirm religites in their characterisation of atheists as arrogant. Therefore, it's not a word that I'd like to use. How about 'non-theist'? I like this. It says what I am not rather than what I am and doesn't convey any sense of arrogance or superiority. Using 'non-theist' also avoids quantifying my unbelief or fixing my position on the belief/non-belief spectrum. It also puts the shoe on the foot of the theist by implication – the onus is on them to defend their position. They are making the claims, not the non-theist! They are the ones who profess to know so they can't turn around and criticise others for being arrogant.

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31. Comment #15172 by jhb90277 on December 29, 2006 at 9:14 am

 avatarJohnC,

People where I live generally know that there is a time and place for discussion about religion and they have the good taste not to bring it up any time they feel like it. They seem to talk about it with people they already go to church with or if they discover that someone sends their kids to a church-run school.

It's just as well. I'd rather spend my time focusing on the kids, the school and the rest of our lives than on what religion someone is.

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32. Comment #15176 by NotWithoutMyMonkey on December 29, 2006 at 10:09 am

If anyone cares to respond to Muehlenberg, his personal blog can be found here:

http://www.billmuehlenberg.com

It seems that Dawkins has really gotten under his skin- the man seems truly rattled. The tone of his reply to Singer is highly inventive and spiteful especially given the reasonable and measured tone of her opinion piece. They really don't like Atheists being more assertive and they really do expect that their delusions should be unassailable. Richard and Sam were right, and the response, if it weren't so serious, is almost humorous to watch with their ad-nauseum regugitation of the same old straw-men, and their flailing attempts at logic (they do seem to get themselves into all kind of bother).

Methinks these Christians charging forth to post opinion pieces in the newspapers of the world do protest a little too much. We are chipping away at that barrier, at least with Christianity (time to turn the blowtorch on Islam more fully as well). The fear I have is that some of these people might react violently.





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33. Comment #15178 by DavidJMH on December 29, 2006 at 10:10 am

The problem about using the word "atheist" is it is theist terminology in the first place. Although accurate from a theist point of view and historically used in a predominantly religious world, the advance of empirical knowledge should now lead us to describe truth by another term. Some may fault my logic, but to describe ourselves in negative terms of something that clearly does not exist, makes no sense.

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34. Comment #15179 by Mr. Mark on December 29, 2006 at 10:10 am

Aussie said:

"It is a pity Sam has to waste his time using his extraordinary talent explaining the obvious to those who refuse to understand."



As an old boss once told me, "if you're unwilling to come in here and explain the same thing to the same people every day of the week, you're in the wrong business."

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35. Comment #15184 by Ernest Sparks on December 29, 2006 at 11:06 am

 avatarThe problem with "atheism" is the "ism" suffix. It automatically suggests something brewed up in a mind, with social consequences to follow.

Atheism- cult of Athe?

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36. Comment #15188 by Steven Mading on December 29, 2006 at 11:52 am

Ernest Sparks says: "The problem with "atheism" is the "ism" suffix. It automatically suggests something brewed up in a mind, with social consequences to follow."

Actually, the problem is that the order of operations in English prefix and suffix parsing isn't clear. "Atheism" is composed of three parts. The base is "theus" for god. The prefix "a-" means "without or lacking". The suffix "-ism" means a an ideology. The meaning is different depending on which order you pull those apart in:
1: (a-theus)-ism : Taking the lack of god and making an "-ism" out of it.
2: a-(theus-ism) : Lacking the "-ism" that there is a god.

Meaning 2 is more accurate at describing actual real-world atheists, but Meaning 1 is how most people view it, and it represents the false boogeyman version of atheist that most people envision.

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37. Comment #15189 by BeyondBelief on December 29, 2006 at 11:59 am

 avatarRegarding Comment 2, about the belief in Santa (Father Christmas to some heathens. :-)

I received the following letter from a public school teacher, after my son (who figured out Santa was ME before he turned 6)spread his knowledge among classmates.
[excerpted]
I need to ask you a favor and talk to XXXXX about not telling children that there is no Santa, tooth fairy etc. I have talked to him several times about this already and he was telling children again today.

The first time a child came up to me and told me that XXXXX said there was no Santa. I looked at XXXX and said "We are not talking about this again!" About 3 minutes later when lining up for lunch he was telling another child that his brother snuck down at midnight and watched the two of you put presents under the tree and that it is always the parents that do this. I had some very upset children and I will probably get upset parents. I explained to him that what he believes is between him and his family and that he cannot share that with other people. I feel terrible that he is ruining this for other children. Please talk to him about how
important it is for him to keep this to himself.

[end excerpt]

Yes... useful myths must be sustained, right? Even at the expense of truth, and/or people who don't share belief in the value of the myth.

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38. Comment #15190 by CreatedAnAthiestByGod on December 29, 2006 at 12:01 pm

I consider my self a strong atheist (level 7 on the Dawkins scale). But more than this I am a sceptic. This means (to me) that I reject astrology, ghosts and fairies; I don't believe in Peter pan, Frankenstien or Superman, all I want to do is... but I digress.

BTW, I use the term 'strong' in the same way that DNA used the term 'radical'. However, what a surprise to find that Wikipedia has a definition for 'Strong Atheist'.

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39. Comment #15200 by Nazgul on December 29, 2006 at 1:29 pm

I've posted this idea in a few other areas, so I will repeate it here in response to Comment #15115 by Aussie, and Sam Harris waisting his time and talent.

Most believers may never be turned away from their irrational thoughts, because they have a defence mechanisim dubbed "Pride and Bias". When they read somthing on this site, or others, or talk to one of us, they, I believe, begin to see some light. BUT... their "Pride and Bias" always comes to the rescue. From what I can see, the believer converting to rational thought is few and far between. But, converting a few, is better than none. I think if Christainity had adopted meditaton as one of their creeds, I think it would never have spread the way it did, because through meditaion, Pride, Bias, EGO would diminish. Pride and Bias should be one of the areas of concentration on this site. If this idea could be Emphasized, maybe more belivers would be inclined to look inward and see what they refuse to see.

Can you imagine a beliver suddenly seeing that their is no God, then having to tell thier children that they were wrong, and maybe their spouse, and their co-workers that they argued with... and especially their religious circle of friends... tough to do when "Pride and Bias" exists.

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40. Comment #15202 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 1:46 pm

 avatarBeyondBelief said, "I explained to him that what he believes is between him and his family and that he cannot share that with other people."
_______

So then all the god botherers should not discuss their beliefs outside their families?

I am very interested in how you handled this, in terms of speaking to your son and getting back to his teacher.

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41. Comment #15206 by Zaphod on December 29, 2006 at 2:10 pm

 avatarTotally agree with what Sam Harris says. Anyone who has heard him talk can't ever call him dogmatic or intollerant. He is a champion of reason.

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42. Comment #15208 by DavidJMH on December 29, 2006 at 2:22 pm

As SH and RD repeatedly state, it is the brainwashing of children which should be discouraged. Adults, who have so much time, emotion, effort, social dependency and above all money invested in religion are a very difficult nut to crack. Deep inside, many may see the ridiculousness of their beliefs, but are almost powerless to divorce themselves easily from them.

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43. Comment #15209 by jefferson on December 29, 2006 at 2:30 pm

I read Mr. Muehlenberg's review of the God Delusion from NotWithoutMyMonkey's link. Muelenberg labels the book an intolerant polemic against religion. I just finished the book myself, and it is actually a very gentle, nonchalant laying-down-of-how-it-is.
I've read books attacking the likes of George Bush and the fast food industry that is a hundred times more scathing than Dawkin's book.
I think Muelenberg needs his pacifier.

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44. Comment #15212 by Nazgul on December 29, 2006 at 2:40 pm

To add to my comment above; Yes "brainwashing of children should be discouraged". But in a democratic society, this could be difficult. I think the best we can do about keeping children less programed is to attempt to keep it out of schools. But (I use that word a lot), we have to completely separate church and state. I just saw the movie "Jesus Camp"... scary. Ted Haggard (the Hypocrite) may have given the best warning in the movie: every two days an Evangelical church opens in the US... ahhhhhh!!!! And with that comes more "Jesus Camps, and Christain schools.

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45. Comment #15214 by Joadist on December 29, 2006 at 3:18 pm

So, what is wrong with the correct term 'Humanist'?

After all, we are humans. We do human things. We love and we hate. We kill and we care.

Theism is a denial of humanity. It asserts that there is something innately wrong with being human. It is a search for something better. Not to find something better, but to prove we are lesser.

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46. Comment #15217 by spasms on December 29, 2006 at 4:25 pm

It is incredible that people like BeyondBelief (#37) and their children are treated this way. Here's a great Christmas Story: "How Google Earth Killed Santa"

http://paralleldivergence.com/2006/12/22/how-google-earth-killed-santa/

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47. Comment #15218 by Nikki on December 29, 2006 at 4:58 pm

32. Comment #15176 by NotWithoutMyMonkey on December 29

"If anyone cares to respond to Muehlenberg, his personal blog can be found here:
http://www.billmuehlenberg.com"

No chance of having a say there. In part, his blog rules state:
1. I reserve the right to edit or refuse comments.
2. This site is meant to express my point of view. If you are looking for a soapbox to promote your own views, create your own website or blog site.

However, the Punditocracy Watch site,
"Where the RWDB demagogues witness the demise of their fallacies. Over and over and over... A collaborative blog; because no one pundit deserves that much individual attention..." awards a Trophy in his name:
The Bill Muehlenberg Trophy
http://punditocracywatch.blogspot.com/2006/10/bill-muehlenberg-trophy-following-in.html

Bookmarked!! :)

Other Comments by Nikki

48. Comment #15219 by HappyPrimate on December 29, 2006 at 5:35 pm

 avatarI am a fan of Sam Harris and have read both End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. However, I seriously doubt many Xians will pick these up for casual reading. Most would be terrified to even touch them for fear of it being sinful. Too bad. On the other hand, those who are on a personal knowledge quest will benefit greatly. I am so delighted to have Sam and Dr. Dawkins speaking out for science and reason and wish we could get more influential persons to do so as well.
A comment to Beyond Belief who wrote about the teacher's "demand" that she speak to her child about spilling the beans on Father Christmas -- Well, in my case as a child before I entered the first grade (age 6), my mother called me in one morning while she was still in bed. I hopped up and she said "I've got something to tell you. Since you are about to start school I don't want other children to be the ones telling you this." She went on to tell me that she and Dad were really Santa Claus and that he really didn't exist but was a sweet story told to all children. I immediately sat back stunned in disbelief that I had been LIED to by those I trusted the most in my little life. I recall asking about the Easter Bunny -- no he was fake too, the Tooth Fairy (I really liked that one) -- no she was also fake. Then my next question was "What about God and Jesus?" Naturally I put those invisible entities into the supernatural category as well. "Oh no, they are REAL" said my mother. I didn't quite believe her. After all she had just told me all those other entites I had been trained to believe were real weren't. I was one angry little six year old and my relationship with my parents never recovered. I am 55 now and still put little stock in what my elders tell me to believe without solid proof. I therefore do not think that lying to children even when it may be fun to see how gullible they are, is an appropriate thing to do. I would tell that teacher that it is high time that the other kids in her class are brought up to speed on reality and since she is supposed to be charged with teaching facts to her pupils, the fostering of such a falsehood is not in their best interest.

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49. Comment #15220 by ryanbooker on December 29, 2006 at 5:43 pm

 avatarReally? Finding out about Santa damaged your relationship with your parents? I remember bawling my eyes out when I demanded the truth from my parents, but I got over it pretty quickly.

I'm not sure what I'll tell my kids (If I ever have any), I'm inclined to not have Santa et el., but not because I think it will damage them. Mostly because Christmas gives me the @#$%s.

:)

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50. Comment #15221 by Logicel on December 29, 2006 at 5:56 pm

 avatarWhy does a child having an imaginary friend worries their parents and psychologists as a compelling problem with which to deal while a child believing in an imaginary Santa does not?

Is a child lying to itself when it creates an imaginary friend? No. Is a parent lying to a child when they teach their child to believe in imaginary beings in whom they themselves do not believe? Yes.

If parents truly want to have magically special times with their children, can't they come up with something better than this particular meme of Santa? Can't they encourage the development of imagination in their children without resorting to lies. Of course they can!

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