1. Comment #18205 by tentotheminus9 on January 19, 2007 at 2:21 am

I'm guessing that a few well thought out logical arguments against religion wouldn't sway these fruitcakes?

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2. Comment #18212 by Sancus on January 19, 2007 at 2:40 am

It's fascinating to me that a cleric vehemently equated non-belief with dishonesty.

People must learn to see that Islamists are beyond the God delusion. They don't recognize anything but their delusion. It is totally consuming and anyone who has an introductory level of understanding about Islam knows this. That is the goal of their religious practice. Whether it is expressed through intolerance or peaceful prayer, this is the foundation of all Islamic praxis.

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3. Comment #18214 by Logicel on January 19, 2007 at 2:46 am

Endowing faith in belief without real, provable evidence as being virtuous and valuable causes this insanity. And that is what all supporters of religious superstitions do, no matter how moderate their own superstitious version may be.

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4. Comment #18215 by Homo economicus on January 19, 2007 at 3:05 am

'Any muslim who helps ... atheists, will be cursed.'

'A state within a state till the Islamic state can take over.'

'We are doing brainwashing because the [unbelivers] are doing braindefiling' (A lot of cults say this when you lay that charge at their door).

The importance of secularism in British society has never been clearer.

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5. Comment #18218 by aleprechaunist on January 19, 2007 at 3:47 am

Nasty virus... I don't think I'll ever feel safe in a dental clinic again...

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6. Comment #18219 by Feuerbach on January 19, 2007 at 4:04 am

Isn't that Arnold from Diffrent Strokes?

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7. Comment #18221 by BD on January 19, 2007 at 4:17 am

When you give ignorance power it becomes a dangerous thing.

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8. Comment #18222 by john_eg on January 19, 2007 at 4:30 am

In 48 minutes of sermons it strikes me I've heard no religion. peel away the bigotry and there's nothing left. This film is worrying but I don't imagine something as completely vacuous as radical islam could achieve the dominance they want.

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9. Comment #18230 by alfonso on January 19, 2007 at 4:39 am

john_eg, although I hope you are right, I find the second coming of 'jesucristo superstar' as vacuous yet it seems to dominate the US.

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10. Comment #18231 by Deoradh on January 19, 2007 at 4:43 am

Did any of the content actually surprise anybody

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11. Comment #18244 by Johan on January 19, 2007 at 5:42 am

Scary stuff bit hardly surprising anymore. Too bad that anyone who has looked a bit into what the Qur'an has to say comes to realize that the views of the extremists are more true to the teachings of the scripture.

I have seen a few similar documentaries now in various languages and, as far as I can remember, none of them cared to measure the views of the extremists against the suras that actually advocate these views. It is as if the journalists behind the documentaries wanted the general audience to think that the Muslim extremists simply must be nuts without anything to back them up.

In my opinion, the scariest thing is that the extremists seem pretty good at taking the teachings of the Qur'an seriously

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12. Comment #18255 by carwash on January 19, 2007 at 6:45 am

To everybody in the UK who missed this programme,c4 is repeating it at 3.30am on Saturday the 20th

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13. Comment #18257 by Feuerbach on January 19, 2007 at 6:53 am

Am I the only one who thought that fella looks like Arnold from Diffrent Strokes???

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14. Comment #18262 by LucyFir on January 19, 2007 at 7:23 am

http://www.newenglishreview.org/blog_display.cfm?blog_id=4637

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15. Comment #18263 by Linda on January 19, 2007 at 7:25 am

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_method=full&objectid=18442715&siteid=94762-name_page.html

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16. Comment #18265 by aleprechaunist on January 19, 2007 at 7:35 am

"Am I the only one who thought that fella looks like Arnold from Diffrent Strokes???"

... What you talkin' about, Feuerbach! Yes, there is a similarity.

Seriously though, let's hope it takes 'different strokes [than radical Islam] to move the world...'

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17. Comment #18267 by Linda on January 19, 2007 at 7:52 am

Apparently that apostasy is a death sentence too.

Suggesting that any aspect or religion is benign is ridiculous. The only way to stop this is to outlaw participation in religion except for consenting adults. Tobacco companies rely on hooking children in order to maintain lifetime addiction and so do religions. In most jurisdictions children are not allowed to have sex or use alcohol yet societies turn a blind eye to the emotional and physical abuse perpetrated by clerics who of course are funding their pension annuities.

I'd like to see some clear-headed discussion of circumcision, ritual bloodletting that is performed on child victims without their consent. Imagine if circumcision is only declared legal for consenting adults. The outcome would be that few if any would opt for it and ultimately religion would fade away when blood rituals are viewed through the telescope of human rights.

There is an interesting radio show on the topic of Circumcision here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/beyond_belief/
Hit the drop down menu to Listen to previous programs for the link to the broadcast.

Moslems and Jews continue to engage in ritual genital mutilation of children, which is essentially a form of branding. It is horrific for both genders:

Boys: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/malecircumcision/

Girls: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/femalecircumcision/

I wonder if the political and social reality of the ME would improve if this primitive and cruel practice were outlawed without mature consent. Has anyone yet studied sexual dysfunction and circumcision?

Now segue to Toronto, Canada. Oh yes the image of Canada is one secular freedom yet this story from the Greater Toronto Area is really disturbing:

Durham praises the Lord
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/172326

The city council in question here is empowered to operate and maintain infrastructure and not to dictate what people believe if anything. I was really steamed yesterday when asking a friend who lives there to phone his city counselor and remind the person that municipal council is a place of business not a shrine and that superstition has nothing to do with making sure the busses run on time or the garbage is collected. My friend won't do it as he doesn't want to make waves and is afraid of more ignorant jerks spouting racist remarks towards those who are not Christians. Yikes.

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18. Comment #18274 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 19, 2007 at 9:01 am

Comment #18219 by Feuerbach

HA HA HA! Arnold from Diff'rent Strokes?! Yeah! 'It takes....to rule the world!'.

Great points made by Linda, above. Joking apart, I saw [and recorded] the documentary. I love Dispatches, anyway - a top show [why do C4 Have such extremes? Dispatches AND that vomit Big brother?].

Anyway. I was disturbed, mostly, by the fact that the one guy was an AMERICAN MUSLIM. A most unusual religion for an American, surely? Truth be told though, the hate-mongers who HIDE behind religion are not exclusive to Islam. Visit www.godhatesfags.com and you can see the Christian version. Indeed, on YouTube, if you search for Pastor Becky Fischer, she openly admits that she wants to see 'Christian' fighters laying down their lives in sort of a la' 911 fashion because 'excuse me...we have the truth as Christians'.

I find it all rather bizarre. If there is a God, I'm sure he would not want the major religions warring against each other. This is EXACTLY the whole point of TGD.

Regards to all.

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19. Comment #18275 by Simon Quick on January 19, 2007 at 9:03 am

I would propose that we move the Doomsday Clock a few more minutes closer to 12.00.

This video goes to show that the comments of Sam Harris, that we should not tolerate religious moderation, are correct.
Britains write to your MPs to get these people before the courts and stop this hyprocrasy.

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20. Comment #18279 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 19, 2007 at 9:21 am

Yes, Si.

I don't understand why it wasn't mentioned much in the newspapers, here in Britain, the very next day [Tuesday]. There was hardly a murmur.

The MP's sure enough jumped on the bandwagon for that Big Brother crap. [I ain't defending the vile Jade Goody]. The mere suggestion that we are racist - hell no! The MP's even had Tony Blair harping on about it at PM questions on Wednesday!

Yet, here on this Islmaic documentary, some seriously treasonous activity seems to be going on - and nobody flinched! Furthermore, why did nobody in the audience stand up and say 'I don't agree with that' and walk away?

Truly frightening. I guess I may write to my MP - as Simon above asks.

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21. Comment #18283 by Lionel A on January 19, 2007 at 9:49 am

So much for the admitted beliefs of so called moderate Islamic organisations, we should expect nothing else considering the content of the Qur'an. Those who have not had a look at this book then do so – all becomes clear as to why we could be in for a whole load of trouble.

As for the prophet having married a girl of nine and thus it is OK to emulate his behaviour this is simply a crime against humanity. I wonder if this is mentioned somewhere in the Hadith, a book of perhaps equal importance to the Qur'an. Some of it can be found at:

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/other/hadith_500.html#NOTE

As for the Christian fundamentalists such as Becky Fischer, of movie Jesus Camp fame, such people should be kept way from children especially considering such things as her encouragement of the laying on of hands with a cardboard cut out of George W Bush (this one was probably more articulate) so as to bless him. Clearly the demons of true evil are alive and well and gathering their respective armies.

I admire the true courage of the likes of Harris and Dawkins for speaking out, highly visibly in print, against the activities of these people.

This Dispatches video should be a must see for anyone who doubts the seriousness of the situation. Any state funding of these organisations should be cut forthwith, and local government should take responsibility for making it difficult for these people to spread their vitriol and inhumanity.

Other Comments by Lionel A

22. Comment #18286 by CF1 on January 19, 2007 at 10:26 am

What a bunch of nutcases.
Something tells me we're going to look back on these times and see that we were too soft, too tolerant of such uglyness.

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23. Comment #18287 by dmcr35 on January 19, 2007 at 11:04 am

Here's a link to the CBC/Frontline collaboration on the terror plot in Toronto of last year. There's also a link on the right hand side of the page to view the program on line.
Interestingly, the plot was foiled largely by the efforts of a Muslim who became an undercover police informant. Maybe there's hope yet.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/torontoterror/

Dave

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24. Comment #18288 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 19, 2007 at 11:11 am

Comment #18283 by Lionel A

A great posting Lionel. I fully concur.

Thanks for the great link. I've got one for the Qur'an already - now have one for the Hadith.

Thanks

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25. Comment #18289 by BaronOchs on January 19, 2007 at 11:13 am

The financing of these bigots and fanatics by Saudiarabia to spread their toxic memes in countries like the UK is very disturbing indeed.

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26. Comment #18293 by Arcturus on January 19, 2007 at 11:45 am

Just replace Allah with Jesus and there you have it, a christian fundamentalism speech about homosexuality.

They are so alike, same pattern of thinking, same intolerant behavior, same delusions.

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27. Comment #18303 by j s bach on January 19, 2007 at 1:26 pm

It's no wonder people vote for the BNP.

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28. Comment #18309 by shmooth on January 19, 2007 at 1:52 pm

this stuff goes on in thousands of churches all over america every day. why not go undercover into some of _them_, too?

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29. Comment #18312 by Frans on January 19, 2007 at 3:22 pm

True John Sebastian, just like in the Netherlands, where more than half a milion people voted on a party that mainly states: "No more islam in our country".
Many Imams are leaving Holland, they don't feel "at home" anymore and swap our country for others, where they can more easily spout their "ideals".

These hate preaching (screaming) mentals scare me for years now, and any sain person should be scared. Men who are imuun to reason, taking literately 1400 year old texts, combined with skills for dramatic acting and effective rhetoric, impressing people of less than moderate intelligence who hear that it is perfectly ok to murder non-believers or gays, to beat women, have sex with young girls, etc. etc. pose a threat to any civilization but Islam.
They belong in a mental institution, not in million pounds/dollar/euro buildings where they can spread their filth.

It's hard to understand for anyone who was not indoctrinated by his parents what makes these men so furious. I mean: why do they even care about us Kuffaar, as they 'know' we go to hell anyway?
Is it because they're afraid they could be wrong? Is that why they shout all the time? To yell away their own cognitive dissonance?
I see no happyness in these men, only fear, frustration and hatred. I pity anyone who is capable of loving only one imaginairy plus one (probably) historical figure, Allah and Moehammad (praised be His Name), above anyone or anything else, and furthermore hates the other 80% of the non muslim world.

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30. Comment #18313 by RickM on January 19, 2007 at 3:26 pm

I can't help but wonder how many little enclaves of Evangelical Christians are meeting in their homes, making plans for the future when homosexuals, adulterers and Sabbath workers can be killed.

Just how far does a believer need to be pushed that take his superstition to the edge.

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31. Comment #18318 by john_eg on January 19, 2007 at 4:41 pm

alfonso thinks I'm too optimistic and he might be right. The racism (and homophobia etc) expressed by members of the british nationalist party (re: js bach) is by no account less despicable than the views of the preachers on this film. If people think the bnp is a good solution to extremist islam we are in a seriously worrying situation.

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32. Comment #18358 by pr126 on January 20, 2007 at 3:11 am

What the preachers were saying were straight out of the Koran, the Hadiths and Sira.
This is Islam, as Mohammad intended.
One cannot ban these hate speeches without also banning the Islamic canonical scriptures.
Who is prepared to do this?

How many people know that this is in fact from the Koran, and not an extremist interpretation of Islam, not a hijacking of Islam, but because it is Islam in its purest form.

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33. Comment #18377 by oeditor on January 20, 2007 at 7:25 am

Lionel A wrote:
"I wonder if this is mentioned somewhere in the Hadith, a book of perhaps equal importance to the Qur'an. Some of it can be found at:

http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/other/hadith_500.html#NOTE"

Bear in mind whatever the (dubious) provenance of the Koran, Muslims themselves recognise that the Hadith were largely made up for political or theological reasons. They became so numerous that they had to be purged and most of them were thrown out. The remaining ones merely represent a consensus. Wikioedia touches on the matter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith. There is a discussion at http://hadith.rationalreality.com/ It's not the lightest of reads, though.

Brian

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34. Comment #18379 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 20, 2007 at 8:28 am

Great links Brian. Thanks.

I have a new game show. It's called:

UNDERCOVER BIG BROTHER.

We send Jade Goody into the Mosques, identified in Dispatches and we see how long she will last.

I reckon around 30 seconds. Could be quite a laugh!

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

35. Comment #18464 by robives on January 21, 2007 at 4:32 am

What I find astonishing is that the current "national debate" is about a bunch of vacuous tarts in the Big Brother house rather than this.
The kind of bigotry on display in the mosques was terrifying, this is what we should be getting worked up about!

Rob

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36. Comment #18524 by john_eg on January 21, 2007 at 1:49 pm

http://www.nysun.com/article/46707

Totally weird. . .

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37. Comment #18525 by mjwemdee on January 21, 2007 at 2:06 pm

You are so right, robives. I found the Dispatches programme very unnerving. And then to see all that endless, fatuous crap about Jade Goody... what is happening in the UK? where is our sense of proportion?

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38. Comment #18603 by Old Coppernose on January 22, 2007 at 2:37 am

4. Comment #18215 by Homo economicus on January 19, 2007 at 3:05 am
"
'We are doing brainwashing because the [unbelivers] are doing braindefiling' (A lot of cults say this when you lay that charge at their door)."

Yep - often heard in Alcoholics Anonymous ond other 12-step groups - "My brain needs a good wash."

5. Comment #18218 by aleprechaunist on January 19, 2007 at 3:47 am

"Nasty virus... I don't think I'll ever feel safe in a dental clinic again... "

Funnily enough, my dentist's name is "Islam". As a woman however I doubt she subscribes to the idea that women are inferior to men - but perhaps I ought to pay her bill to stay safe. It hurt but she saved a tooth without extraction or root canal. The filling came out a week later but that was my fault for chewing toffee.

I believe that it is a mistake to attack moderate religion for fostering extremism. Moderate religion may actually inoculate against the extreme form imo. We need to keep the moderates onside against the fundies imo. Perhaps we should infiltrate the moderates ourselves. )

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39. Comment #18609 by Old Coppernose on January 22, 2007 at 2:43 am

37. Comment #18525 by mjwemdee on January 21, 2007 at 2:06 pm

"You are so right, robives. I found the Dispatches programme very unnerving. And then to see all that endless, fatuous crap about Jade Goody... what is happening in the UK? where is our sense of proportion?"

Absolutely. 40,000 complaints abt minor slights motivated by just one individual's general unpleasantness rather than racism, effigies burned in India and quastions asked of the Deputy PM, Trevor Phillips calling for C4 to *have its license revoked* and yet this appalling violent racist preaching hardly produces a blip. Out of sight! Maybe Phillips wants C4 closed down because of Dispatches...

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40. Comment #20555 by Lionel A on February 4, 2007 at 5:27 am

There is an interesting piece, at last, in the UK press. This Sunday's Observer contains an article by regular columnist Henry Porter which mentions the diatribes of Abu Usamah in the Green Lane mosque, see:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/columnists/story/0,,2005686,00.html

Also, in the Review section of this paper, there is a most interesting article on the courageous ex-Muslim Ayaan Hirsi Ali which is well worth taking the time to read, see

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2005258,00.html

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41. Comment #20564 by Linda on February 4, 2007 at 8:10 am

It's well and good to expose Islam as dangerous to the psyche of so many yet after catching a few politicians vying for the job of POTUS 2008 on US new-stainment venues today why must they continue to boast credentials from participation in superstitious practices? In order to make waves somebody in politics who is as brave as Dawkins must start to stir the pot. Is religion the root cause of the failure of the USA? What would Jefferson say about the whole sorry mess?

From a sociological perspective I wonder about the mental health of young males. Communities everywhere are affected by the demographic of young angry men some of whom are attracted to street gangs or other anti-social activities. Historically young males were conscripted to fight and die in hegemonic wars. Today that is no longer an option. Is there a global pandemic of mental illness due to an excess of population?

It does sound sexist to ask but for starters what makes some males so crazy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/6326513.stm

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/ashoura.children.ap/index.html

http://www.thestar.com/artsentertainment/article/178028

Is it that they do not have meaningful work or existence?

Other Comments by Linda

42. Comment #23722 by blackbeauty on March 2, 2007 at 8:30 am

I think the best way to stop violence and hate would be: 1. Find an alternative fuel source. 2. Stop depending on Saudi oil 3. Leave Muslim countries alone, do not interfere in their internal affairs. 4. Bush and Blair have ended up strengthening their hands.

We have to do something soon otherwise we would have no peace in this world.

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43. Comment #39702 by Ace Rimmer on May 11, 2007 at 4:22 pm

Very scary,if I were living in England id be very, very, concerned. all of a sudden christianity doesnt seem so bad.by the way has the sadamm hussein mosque in birmingham been renamed?

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