Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Tuesday, January 30, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document The Ego and the ID

by Richard Fortey, Telegraph

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk

Why I hate this intelligent design story. It's simply IDiotic, writes Richard Fortey

Scientists have found themselves trapped into appearing to be unreasonable in their pursuit of rationality. A snare has been cleverly set by the proponents of Intelligent Design in their quest to prove that Charles Darwin got it wrong.

The vast majority of scientists feel nothing but distress that the teaching of Intelligent Design has been promoted in a number of our schools, particularly the faith schools apparently beloved by Tony Blair. Fundamentalists of both Islamic and Christian persuasion meet on this rather implausible common ground. Both these groups of religious hard liners deplore Darwin and all his works.

Scientists tend to get angry when confronted by what they see as the gross distortion of truth promulgated by Intelligent Designers. This has come across badly in 'balanced' debates in the media. As was the case with arguments over the MMR vaccine, the scientist when provoked can unwittingly appear to be a fulminating zealot. By contrast, many of the proponents of Intelligent Design (ID) have contrived to appear to be in favour of free speech. Aren't those scientists empurpled with rage and crying "nonsense' the very picture of a threatened Establishment? On this platform the evolutionary scientist rather than the ID enthusiast can seem to be the less reasonable of the two.

The trouble stems from the use of the weasel word "theory". Successive Presidents of the United States have got themselves off the hook with the influential Christian fundamentalist lobby by the deployment of this useful but traitorous word. Ronald Reagan would flash his aw-shucks smile and amiably reiterate: "I guess Evolution is just a theory". This has become a mantra among ID proponents. If evolution is one theory - then ID is another, or so the argument goes. Only a bigot would object to the airing of the alternative explanations.

The crux of ID is that evolution is purposeful, and that an 'invisible hand' has operated at crucial stages to direct the course of life onwards and upwards. The Intelligence of the Designer is manifest at certain critical points - such as the creation of life itself.

On the other hand, the scientific 'theory' of evolution actually breaks into two components. The first part is to assert that descent of all organisms from a common ancestor has, indeed, happened. To deny this is the equivalent of believing that the earth is flat as a pancake, or that the sun goes round it. Both could be described as theories, though nobody has taken them seriously for hundreds of years. Some fundamentalists still believe that creation happened a few thousand years ago. No respectable scientist believes this. Since the unscrambling of the genome has recently been added to evidence from the fossil record, it might be said that descent is simply a fact. We share genes with bananas and bacteria. At this deep level, DNA proves that humans are joined to all other life. This ought to awake nothing but wonder in all of us, but some find the thought of such a brotherhood of life scary.

The other part of Darwinism says that natural selection is the driving force behind evolution. This is where the ID protagonists come in. They accept the long time scale required from what we know of the age of the earth, but substitute supernaturally directed selection at critical points in life's long history. They might say that proteins are too darn complicated to have arisen by natural selection alone. This kind of assertion drives rationalists crazy, because it is impossible to refute by a critical experiment. There will always be another protein, another example of that supposed extra, guiding ingredient.

The problem for scientists is that when this additional design factor is added it serves only to suppress questions - and science is all about tackling questions head-on. Why should we spend money on setting up experiments to simulate the creation of the first living cell if the motive force was a "designer"? No experiment can detect such metaphysical seasoning in the primeval soup.

Science has always been about tackling new areas of knowledge, with theory and experiment interacting creatively . If God's influence is invoked for any breakthrough in life's story, research is simply stopped dead in its tracks: no point in investigating further. ID therefore becomes a brake on discovery, not a way of enriching it.

In my view, God has overly got mixed into the argument. Scientists are often presented as the champions of atheism. This is typified by Richard Dawkins' views of theistic "delusion". Although I might agree with much of what Dawkins has to say, it might be that his almost theological espousal of atheism has served to up the stakes in the ID debate. In fact, there are many world-class scientists who are also believers. But they also believe that God should not be introduced into the explanation of nature. Scientists of my generation remember the meretricious attractions of Tielhard de Chardin and his noosphere, the idea that the end of evolution is a kind of super-consciousness: not one scientific hypothesis of worth was generated from this metaphysical mayhem.

A worthwhile theory always suggests new lines of investigation, and on this criterion Darwinism has passed with flying colours. Field and laboratory studies helping us to understanding how evolution works are beyond counting. The behaviour of Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands has been studied for decades. A million generations of fruit flies have given up their lives to unravel the mysteries of the expression of genes. In the process many debates have opened up - like the relative importance of sex or geography in generating new species. This does not mean that Darwin is in trouble. It just means that the science is still vigorous, that understanding is honed progressively.

So that is why biologists get so mad at the propagation of ID. It wastes time. It suppresses research rather than encouraging it. It's not really a theory, it's a story. It deflects the young from asking the important questions. It serves to kill curiosity rather than encourage it. Sometimes it is right to get angry in the face of unreason. Darwinists are readily labelled. There should be an equivalent term for the proponents of Intelligent Design. May I suggest IDiots?


• Richard Fortey, President Of The Geological Society Of London, will celebrate his Michael Faraday Prize on Tuesday 30th January with a lecture and an event at the Royal Society organised by The Daily Telegraph, the Society and Novartis. The prize is the UK's foremost award for communicating science to public audiences - previous winners include Richard Dawkins, David Attenborough, Susan Greenfield and Robert Winston.

• Richard Fortey's Faraday lecture will be webcast that day at 5:30pm at http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/webcasts, from where it will also be available to watch on demand later.

Comments 1 - 38 of 38 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #19904 by AdrianB on January 30, 2007 at 3:17 pm

 avatarIf you go directly to the article and read some of the comments you will probably despair :-(

Other Comments by AdrianB

2. Comment #19906 by 601 on January 30, 2007 at 3:30 pm

 avatarCan we turn this around by advocating the teaching of ethics (psych/social science based) in schools at the publics expense.

Maybe even require churches to explain "cult" techniques and such (full disclosure), and a precede services with a "for entertainment purposes only" disclaimer to keep their tax free status?

Other Comments by 601

3. Comment #19907 by Mango on January 30, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatarWhat is Dawkins' "almost theological espousal of atheism"? The author is trying to make Dawkins sound religious, an atheist fundamentalist. There is no reason to suppose the existence of any supernatural power(s) or leperchauns or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. If Dawkins in strident in his refutation of those things, good for him, he's merely championing reality. The author, if he is a man of reason, should be shoulder-to-shoulder w/ Dawkins and not knocking him.

Other Comments by Mango

4. Comment #19915 by cheshirecat on January 30, 2007 at 4:16 pm

I swear there wasn't a man in England who took intelligent design seriously before Dawkins started attacking it. Within twenty years of Darwin and Wallace evolution was accepted. If there is a rise in its popularity I will lay the blame squarely at his door and the attempts to dig up the bones of this debate. He's the professor of 'the public understanding of science' not the professor of attacking American religious loonies. They foam at the mouth, he foams at the mouth - none of us have learnt anything. And now he's got me ranting. For what its worth (not much) I think Dawkins and the religious right deserve each other. Long may they tear strips out of each other in the sports halls of American colleges.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

5. Comment #19918 by Ben Jennings on January 30, 2007 at 4:29 pm

 avatar"I swear there wasn't a man in England who took intelligent design seriously before Dawkins started attacking it."

Yeah, I'm sure that's true...

We need a "rolls eyes" emoticon on this board.

Other Comments by Ben Jennings

6. Comment #19923 by cheshirecat on January 30, 2007 at 4:50 pm

It is true. No one had heard of it. Its an American invention of the early 20th century with which we could do without importing. Around the time they went and invented that delightful brand of evangelism in the 20s and 30s they decided that clever people weren't to be trusted.

If the mass of the people know anything about it at the moment it is through it being topical. Richard is partly responsible for this. The British public hate people in authority telling them what to do.

Why take religion out of schools? Its still compulsory to have some religious instruction every morning at assembely in British schools. Sets most people against religion for life whilst giving them a bit of general moral guidance to ignore.

If Dawkins thinks the ID lot are mad why does he engage in the debate on their level? People think there must be two sides to this. They must have an arguement here if Richard Dawkins gets in such a lather over it. It leads to politicians saying - well I think children should decide for themselves. They don't look at they science they havent the time or inclination. They just say - this Dawkins bloke is a bit of a hardliner over this, we must have some sense of faith moral guidance etc etc...

Other Comments by cheshirecat

7. Comment #19926 by MacGruder on January 30, 2007 at 5:13 pm

Dear cheshirecat,

I am not sure if you are purposefully being provocative, however...

I, for one, first heard of ID way before I ever heard of RD. Last year (or the year before?) ID proponents began circulating the ID video to schools in Australia with the blessing of the then Minister for Education! Not suprisingly this made the News (TV and print). I have yet to see RD on any News or current affairs program in Australia.

Other Comments by MacGruder

8. Comment #19927 by Duff on January 30, 2007 at 5:19 pm

God rolled his eyes when He heard that Dawkins was questioning the intelligence of the Intelligent Design folks. (notice I capitolized the ID folks).
God is very perturbed at being questioned by the so-called intelligent people at the various Universities of the Western World. GOD doesn't like to be questioned by people who use intelligence and reason to think about HIM. GOD wants to be worshipped by people who think emotionally, rather than rationally. This rationality thing is going to come to an end, forthwith!! GOD will not be rationalized...Dammit.

Other Comments by Duff

9. Comment #19929 by Convertedchristian on January 30, 2007 at 5:28 pm

Sense we seem to be talking about schools teaching id, let me tell you a story that you will enjoy. I live in Arkansas and we have churches everywhere in town. I went to church last week to please my parents who do not know that I'm an atheist. When I got there were 6 students including me. We sat there and talked about the bible and I tried to stay quiet. Well it turns out that 5 of those 6 kids in my 11 grade Sunday school class were in the closet atheist. No joke. It seems to me that a majority of people say they are Christians but they are either lying or not acting like Christians. And this is in Arkansas. Times are changing. I would say that in my school of 1200 at least 60% are not religious.(that was not a scientific answer just an observation) Thank you Richard Dawkins. His book is the first thing I see when I walk into the science section in our bookstore. Just thought I would give you all some good news.

Other Comments by Convertedchristian

10. Comment #19935 by Reg on January 30, 2007 at 6:08 pm

 avatarComment #19927 by Duff . "god doesn't like to be questioned by people who use intelligence and reason to think about him."


This is clearly an admission from one of their own, that neither intelligence nor reason were considered, when in panic, they came dragging their knuckles, straight out of the mist(Whereas the rest of us did evolve) and threw together their IDiocy.

May your Delusion be with you. (Notice I capitalized the Delusion and corrected the spelling folks)

Other Comments by Reg

11. Comment #19949 by MacGruder on January 30, 2007 at 8:28 pm

Convertedchristian - when I hear stories like yours it makes me question the methodology of surveys that are often quoted in relation to the number of people who believe in a god. I remember when I was in my early teens (~1970s) and how it was very common to state your religion when completing surveys or applications. I would automatically write the religion of my mother even though I didn't believe in god or attend church. The assumption of anyone reviewing the data would conlcude that I was religious/believe in god. I often wonder how many people today follow similar practices when answering surveys?

[By the way, I was grateful that I was classed as "presbyterian" at school as there was no visiting presbyterian minister and it meant I could skip religion education classes!]

Other Comments by MacGruder

12. Comment #19971 by AdrianB on January 31, 2007 at 12:07 am

 avatarMacGruder, I totally agree with you. On the last census my wife and me put CofE as we always have just because we always have. We are both atheists. If you remember last time there was some amusement as many people decided to put Jedi. LOL.

Next time I hope that those that are non-religious put so and the true numbers become plain for all to see.

Other Comments by AdrianB

13. Comment #19988 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 2:14 am

Ok so maybe I was being stupid. I just don't like it when Dawkins says things like 'religion is child abuse'. That is a prime example of something for which there is no evidence.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

14. Comment #19992 by Luthien on January 31, 2007 at 2:45 am

 avatar15. Comment #19988 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 2:14 am

Ok so maybe I was being stupid. I just don't like it when Dawkins says things like 'religion is child abuse'. That is a prime example of something for which there is no evidence.

No evidence? You HAVE lived a sheltered life.

Other Comments by Luthien

15. Comment #20018 by Old Coppernose on January 31, 2007 at 5:03 am

Thank you Richard Dawkins. His book is the first thing I see when I walk into the science section in our bookstore. Just thought I would give you all some good news.


Yep I must thank RD for proving to me the existence of God. I havent read a book in years, and a few weeks ago some Guiding Hand (perhaps that of Our Lady of Krapima) led me to wander into a bookstore, and of all the marvellous books I would like to read, guided me to pick up TGD, which I am reading for a second time immediately after finishing it. This is far too remarkable a coincidence to have occurred by chance. It must be part of some Divine Plan. Thankyou Richard!

On that note, I may have been overly harsh on Germaine Greer and other commentators on TGD shown in a video on this site when I accused her of lying and having not read the book. The book is long and very detailed and I am surprised at how much I had forgotten in only a couple of weeks. As an existing non-theist with familiarity with and acceptance of evolution it is probably worth me reading it three times, and for a fundie repeatedly until the penny finally drops. Way to go RD.

Other Comments by Old Coppernose

16. Comment #20019 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:05 am

On the contrary, I think you are naive to take Dawkins at his word when he makes such gross generalisations. The study of religion in modern society is a social science. Give me some evidence that a conventional religious upbringing does children any damage. Has anyone written a paper on this or do they consider it too absurd to even bother testing it?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

17. Comment #20033 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:56 am

I once heard that a far greater proportion of church goers and christians were female. I wondered if anyone could back this up/had heard it before? I certainly know that anyone professing religious belief at my school was thought slightly effeminate. I wonder if this has something to do with it.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

18. Comment #20036 by Old Coppernose on January 31, 2007 at 6:01 am

Comment #20019 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:05 am

On the contrary, I think you are naive to take Dawkins at his word when he makes such gross generalisations. The study of religion in modern society is a social science. Give me some evidence that a conventional religious upbringing does children any damage. Has anyone written a paper on this or do they consider it too absurd to even bother testing it?


I hope I get time to reply to this at length, since there is quite a lot of evidence for this. In the UK it has been known for years that the Roman Catholic minority is over-represented among criminals, prostitutes and the mentally ill. Recent evidence (which I will try to dig up) indicates that religious generally are over-represented in the UK criminal population, including those New Agey Buddhists.

However the point you miss is, if making someone believe nonsense for their entire life is doing damage (as it surely is, at least a little) then teaching kids belief in possible Eternal Damnation (or Bliss) after their death is doing children damage per se, not including all the other nonsense that gets taught along with it. Believing in a "Divine Plan" - especially if you think you know what it is - is a recipe for disaster.

Religion is so varied that it is arguable what is "conventional" but one does not have to look beyond mainstream Abrahamic denominations to see all kind of horrors inflicted on millions.

Basic religious beliefs may often be fairly harmless, but often produce tragic consequences - including frightened, neurotic people, people whose ability to learn and participate in science (do you know the Kurt Wise story?) is crippled, gay people who suffer agonies of guilt and/or damage to their ability to enjoy fulfilling sex lives - the list just goes on and on, I'm hardly scratching the surface.

I'm still suffering the effects of my Roman Catholic upbringing and I'll probably never shake it off - a point that Catholics gleefully celebrate themselves. "Give me the child till seven, and I will give you the [sexually abused - OC] Man" as the Jesuits say - we will nobble his critical thinking forever.

Long before the current "Blasphemy challenge" as a teen I took it for myself, under my breath, in an RE class. I deliberately blasphemed the Holy Spirit in order to cut myself off from Xianity forever - and on bad days I've often regretted it. Like most viruses, once infected with the god meme you may never get rid of it, and at moments of weakness it flares up again. When suffering depression, and under religious influence, I used to go into panics that by doing that I had condemned myself to Eternal Damnation.

I never mentioned it to anyone and for years assumed it was my own private neurosis. I was very surprised a few years ago when I saw a post on the web from a guy who suffered in exactly the same way. Not only that, a Xian priest referred him to a website that had a page entirely devoted to sufferers of this problem and why, theologically, they need not be worried about it. It included another personal story, and it seems that priests encounter a steady trickle of people damaged in this way, and how many never speak about it to anyone, and cant get over it even if they do? I'm beginning to feel creepy myself again just thinking about it. There could be thousands of victims. For this reason, I'm a bit uneasy about the Blasphemy Challenge - it might be creating more of them. Of course this is entirely the fault of the theists, but if you cant extract a bullet without killing the victim, then you have to leave the bullet there. I'm not saying we should not encourage young people to renounce theism - not at all. However,I do think this may be a bad approach. Simply a public declaration of Non-theism/Atheism/whatever and a commitment to the use of evidence-based reasoning in an approach to life is quite sufficient. Imo it is quite likely young people who opt for the provocative blasphemy technique may in fact be those who have become, deep down, almost chronically infected and vulnerable to the "blasphemy neurosis". It is interesting that I only recovered from it myself as a result of using a religious resource which used a theological argument that I had not in fact blasphemed at all - no amount of atheist, rationalist approach ever shifted it.

Other Comments by Old Coppernose

19. Comment #20047 by Old Coppernose on January 31, 2007 at 6:39 am

Comment #20033 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:56 am

I once heard that a far greater proportion of church goers and christians were female. I wondered if anyone could back this up/had heard it before? I certainly know that anyone professing religious belief at my school was thought slightly effeminate. I wonder if this has something to do with it.


Certainly I think this is a stereotype, and I think it may well be true. It is very non PC to say it, but I think there may be an evolutionary basis to it.

In TGD RD suggests that religion may result from a human tendency to personalize natural phenomona - thunder is the anger of the gods, etc.

This is being drawn in very broad strokes, so please bear with me. Religions tend to be patriarchal with a male leadership and so might perhaps appeal more to males. However, as females were obliged to be the ones to nurture infants and usually the older ones as well, whereas males were free to pursue hunting, which even when co-operative, are hardly as socially close as mother:child relationships - females psychology has evolved to be expert at social interactions whereas male has a relative greater concern with understanding natural, impersonal phenomoma. Autistic spectrum disorders such as Asperger's Syndrome are far more common in males, characterised by poor social skills, difficulty understanding another's point of view or even that they have one, but often a fascination with, and conspicuous talent for, impersonal, even abstract things, such as mechanical devices, chess-like games and mathematics. Asperger suggested that the syndome merely represented the extreme of normal male psychology, which any woman who wishes to talk to her partner while he wont stop tinkering with the car must surely agree with.

I expect the London Skeptics-in-the-Pub meeting is typical of such groups in being overwhelmingly male. Females are more likely to interpret events in a personalised way - as an act of some kind of god perhaps - than males who are more equipped and likely to view events in a naturalistic way.

Again I'm drawing broad strokes here, so please folks dont hammer me for that, I'm aware of how complex these phenomona are. Unfortunately I have lost some text regarding homosexuality in priests - the point is that there is plenty of evidence for widespread homosexuality in priests, including those publicly married. It is thought that male homosexuality may result from the brain for some reason failing to 'masculinize' in utero, and while physiologically male, as well as becomng gay, it is possible that gay men have other feminine characteristics, such as being more predisposed to personalization of their world view and belief in god.

Other Comments by Old Coppernose

20. Comment #20048 by mdowe on January 31, 2007 at 6:46 am

 avatarI really wish scientists could simply agree to drop the terms 'theory', 'law', and similar words that have widespread non-technical definitions in common usage. For anyone trying to present science to the public, these words are just a disaster. If evolution by natural selection was a 'category 9 scientific statement' (or some similar system roughly grading the weight of evidence supporting it) the effort wasted trying to wack this mole could be put to better use.

Other Comments by mdowe

21. Comment #20054 by rationalteacher on January 31, 2007 at 7:20 am

Dear Cheshirecat

As you will deduce from my unimaginative moniker, I am a teacher (in a large multi-cultural London school). I see the hideous effects of religion on my students on a daily basis. What do we call it when children are force-fed superstitious gibberish from birth? When they are threatened with the fires of hell or death for apostasy? When they are discouraged from questioning their place in the universe and the existence of that universe? When they are judged by the thought police constantly? When they come into school at the age of eleven stating categorically that Darwin was wrong?

I am the school's Child Protection Officer - trust me, this IS abuse. In my humble opinion it should be classified and prosecuted as such, with children placed on the Child Protection register under the category of 'emotional abuse'. I suspect it may be some time before this happens....

Other Comments by rationalteacher

22. Comment #20073 by poppythinks on January 31, 2007 at 8:41 am

 avatarthanks rationalteacher for your contribution.
made this thread real for me. evidence indeed....
richard fortey has a problem with dawkins attitude and maybe dawkins emotionality embarrasses him, it's not clear what bothers him.
scientists are also human, (and often called richard ;-).....lots of us still like a good bit of emoting and a strong voice that represents and reflects what a lot of us feel. does that make him a zealot?
calling id-ers id-iots may be punny, but it aint really that clever.

Other Comments by poppythinks

23. Comment #20099 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 11:00 am

The criminal population used to be made up of Catholics because Catholics were Irish and poorer and so more likely to commit crime. Now it is because Eastern Europeans are more likely to be poorer and commit crime and also are more likely to be Cathoic. Religion has nothing to do with it. The prisons of the big port cities used to be full of Catholics.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

24. Comment #20100 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 11:01 am

Anecdotes are not evidence. They cannot be quantified. You can prove any statement you like with single instances. I have many of my own for people of all faiths who have been brought up to be sensible (in my opinion). Nevertheless I'd like our teacher to give us some examples of what sort of thing worries her/him. Oh and I thought coppernose's comments were interesting and informative. What I'd really want however is someone who could point in the direction of an academic paper on this matter.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

25. Comment #20112 by fonex_86 on January 31, 2007 at 12:51 pm

cheshirecat:
"The criminal population used to be made up of Catholics because Catholics were Irish and poorer and so more likely to commit crime. Now it is because Eastern Europeans are more likely to be poorer and commit crime and also are more likely to be Cathoic. Religion has nothing to do with it. The prisons of the big port cities used to be full of Catholics."

This is a good point. If religion has no significant effect on (good) morals, and is further known to incite extremely distorted worldviews (9/11 anyone?), why bother teaching it at all?

Besides, the way religion is taught now, it's more like indoctrination rather than giving those children a choice.

Other Comments by fonex_86

26. Comment #20116 by kmccardle on January 31, 2007 at 1:22 pm

Chesirecat, anyone would be hard pressed to come up with an academic paper about any of this because there hasn't been one yet. But that's not to say there won't be one in the future, or that the point isn't valid. But in this world that is still heavily religiously led it will be hard for someone to get funding to test something like this. Can you imagine anyone asking the religiously-right American governemt for funding to look for the negative effects of religious upbringing on children? But again, just because no one has done the solid research yet doesn't mean that the effects aren't there.

Other Comments by kmccardle

27. Comment #20118 by intelligentperson on January 31, 2007 at 1:33 pm

id makes no sense,its just a way to make the concept of god more palatable,you are silly with your ignorant beliefs cheshirecat,
i think you are more of a grin without a cat

Other Comments by intelligentperson

28. Comment #20154 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 3:55 pm

I am 'silly and ignorant'. I don't recall ever believing in intelligent design though.

Richard Dawkins believes that religion has come about because mankind needed a way of explaining the natural phenomena around and their creation in a way they could understand. They needed a creation myth. I simply don't buy this.

I think that mankind needed a way of explaining the enormity of death. A way of coping with a life in the words of Thomas Hobbes that was 'nasty Brutish and short'. It certainly was pretty awful in 1651 and it is bad enough for some now. Not quite the 'opiate of the people' in the sense that people believed their wrongs would be redressed in the next life but some information and comfort about death.

This is how Bede rationalised Christianity. Here one of the pagan priests tries to persuade king Edwin that they should all accept Christianity. Its the most famous passage in the historia ecclesia.

The present life of man, O king, seems to me, in comparison with that time which is unknown to us, like to the swift flight of a sparow through the room wherein you sit feasting in winter amid your thegns and earldormen, with a good fire in the midst whilst the storms of rain and snow prevail abroad. It enters in at one door and quickly out through the other. For the few moments that it is inside the storm and wintry tempest cannot touch it, but after the briefest moment of calm it flits from your sight out of the storm and into it again. So this life of man appears but for a moment; what follows or what went before we are ignorant. If this doctrine brings more certain information we should accept it.

They want assurance about their life after death not an origin myth. They already have a perfectly good saxon one.

So back to children and religion. Your sense (meaning all of you in general) is that children are made to fear hell and that's a bad thing because hell doesn't exist. Its fear without good cause. Yet suppose you have a dying child (a little melodramatic I know). What the child fears most is not Hell but separation from his/her parents. The possibility of reunion in the afterlife comforts not only the child but their parents. Its hope without good reason, but at the end of the day its still hope.

I would just like to add that a Catholic upbringing never stopped Mendel doing the first genetic experiments with peas and he was a monk at the time (later abbot of his monastery) at the same time Darwin was writing his great work. He's one of the forgotten heroes of the movement often referred to as the 'father of genetics' though the importance of his paper was only discovered later.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

29. Comment #20166 by Old Coppernose on January 31, 2007 at 5:10 pm

I would just like to add that a Catholic upbringing never stopped Mendel doing the first genetic experiments with peas and he was a monk at the time (later abbot of his monastery) at the same time Darwin was writing his great work. He's one of the forgotten heroes of the movement often referred to as the 'father of genetics' though the importance of his paper was only discovered later.


Mendel is hardly forgotten - as you say, he's often referred to as the 'father of genetics' and iiirc 'Mendelian' is a term in genetics.

A Catholic upbringing may not have prevented Mendel doing his experiments, but they easily might have done only a few years later. Darwin's Origin of Species was put on the Papal Index of books Catholics were forbidden to read - and it was only because Mendel was part of the heirarchy as a Monk that he was permitted to read it, presumably because his faith was considered good enough not to be taken in by it. Since Mendel had not published while Darwin wrote OoS he couldnt incorporate his findings in it, and in fact was obliged to embrace Lamarckianism early on as the only method by which his theory could work in the absence of knowledge of genes. If Mendel's experiments had been done earlier by an evolutionist and he had never risen to being a Monk, as a Catholic he might have been forbidden to read about, let alone do, the very kind of experiments he himself performed. The Index was only abandoned because it go so long it was unworkable.

Another curious fact is that many of his results are almost certainly fraudulent. SOme of the kinds of hybrisation he reports do not actually show the complete dichotomy of phenotype that was his important discovery - intermediate forms occur. Even when they did, it is extremely unlikely that he would get results so close to the famous 3:1 ratio he reports as regularly as he did. It has been suggested these anomalies were the result of the use of increasingly bored underlings who, on noticing the usual 3:1 ratio emerging simply made up the final result and went off and had some hot gay sex, er, I mean went off to pray and self-flagellate. I guess it would be a bit much to point out they were all pious Catholics yet still somebody was a liar, since of course fraud unfortunately has played a large role in the history of science, including evolutionary biology.

Other Comments by Old Coppernose

30. Comment #20169 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Well then I don't think darwin should get all the credit when his grandfather first formulated some of the ideas of natural selection in 'zoonomia' and the 'temple of nature'. He added the motto 'E conchis omnia' (everything from shells) to his family crest. This was in the 1760s so no one can say these ideas werent floating around.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

31. Comment #20183 by Feuerbach on January 31, 2007 at 9:43 pm

cheshirecat, your arguments are nothing short of banal. What one would expect of a fundamentalist zealot - matters of mere convenience to prop up your intractable viewpoint. Entering into a debate with your kind is like shouting at a log.

Other Comments by Feuerbach

32. Comment #20187 by fonex_86 on January 31, 2007 at 10:21 pm

cheshirecat:

"So back to children and religion. Your sense (meaning all of you in general) is that children are made to fear hell and that's a bad thing because hell doesn't exist. Its fear without good cause. Yet suppose you have a dying child (a little melodramatic I know). What the child fears most is not Hell but separation from his/her parents. The possibility of reunion in the afterlife comforts not only the child but their parents. Its hope without good reason, but at the end of the day its still hope."

Riiigghtt... How 'bout this: "The possibility of having raunchy sexual encounters with dozens of virgins in the afterlife comforts not only the jihadist but also the suicide bomber. It's hope without good reason, but at the end of the day it's still good hope... not to mention sending hundreds of infidels to the bowels of hell."

Still sound nice to you? It's the same thing, right? They just want some assurance about their afterlife, right?

Other Comments by fonex_86

33. Comment #20189 by roach on January 31, 2007 at 10:37 pm

Death isn't a natural phenomena?

I don't think any athiest wants to take away anyone's hope. I certainly don't want anyone to take away my hope that Jessica Biel is deeply in love with me. (credit to Sam Harris)

Death is a difficult subject though. I can't remember who said this but I agree with it: I imagine being dead will be exactly the same as not being born. And I wasn't inconvienced at all before I was born.

If it turns out that I'm wrong about this I'll simply be pleasantly suprised.

Other Comments by roach

34. Comment #20298 by Old Coppernose on February 1, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Comment #20169 by cheshirecat on January 31, 2007 at 5:32 pm

Well then I don't think darwin should get all the credit when his grandfather first formulated some of the ideas of natural selection in 'zoonomia' and the 'temple of nature'. He added the motto 'E conchis omnia' (everything from shells) to his family crest. This was in the 1760s so no one can say these ideas werent floating around


You are absolutely right. As well as the basic idea also being independently discovered by Wallace. No need to play "neener neener" with me cat - not only am I fully aware of the facts, but as a Rationalist I am far more interested in ideas than the people who happen to come up with them (which are nearly always joint efforts in any case). There were Communist political theorists before Marx threw in his lot with them, but it was Marx who wrote Das Kapital and enerally fathered Marxism and the Junior Darwin who wrote Origin of species and fathered Darwinism. Though as I said, it doesnt matter at all, it's still a great and dangerous idea and would be even if he had ripped it off from the guy who used to trim his beard at the barbers.

Religious apologists often try to claim science has its roots in religion (I'm not saying you do)and it is far more accurate to say that science grows in spite of religion rather than because of it. The greatest mathematical invention ever was a symbol for zero, first used in India, as it allows a place-system for magnitude which allows nunbers of any size to be manipulated easily. Apparently the Xian church decided use of anything but Roman numerals was blasphemous and you could be excommunicated for using decimals. Throughout history religion has been a ball and chain holding back the advance and acceptance of scientific discoveries. Perhaps the only service religion has provided is creating cadres of clerics with time on their hands which gave them times to experiment with peas and such, but more often they decided to spend their time mortifying their flesh and engaging in ludicrous absurdities like Ontological Proofs of the existence of God.

Other Comments by Old Coppernose

35. Comment #20310 by cheshirecat on February 1, 2007 at 5:20 pm

Of course the sociologist Max Weber thought that the 'protestant work ethic' was responsible for the rise of modern capitalism and all its joys and failings.

We think religion is good or bad depending on what we believe and we create our narratives of the past to fit that belief. For there is so much history out there it is easy to pick and chose one piece and impossible to quantify it all. It is safe to say this. Anyone who thinks that religion was a malign influence throughout society all of the time is wrong. We all can think of evidence both for and against. If it were a court case we would be here till the end of time just to hear the evidence. Religion, magic and belief has played a strong role in societies from the dawn of recorded history to the present day. To decry the idea of a 'personal God' as naive is to cut yourself off from the understanding of history and the human experience. You do not have to share their beliefs but you must make an effort to understand believers. It is not trully religion that drives hatred but the failure to understand and empathise with your fellow humans. For no man is an island.

And to anyone who says 'what about suicide bombers' (how tiresome is this refrain). The failure of understanding is ours in a small part and theirs in a far greater one.

There used to be in England after the civil war and idea or feeling that historians allude to called personal piety. You believed what you believed quietly and didn't bother other people with it. No talking religion or politics to guests. No one should make 'windows into mens souls' least of all scientists.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

36. Comment #20312 by cheshirecat on February 1, 2007 at 5:34 pm

Also. Why Oliver Cromwell?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

37. Comment #20320 by roach on February 1, 2007 at 7:00 pm

cheshirecat,

About half of your sentences make sense. The other half is just postmodernist/cultural relativist claptrap very similar to the crap I was forcefed throughout college. It's the kind of thinking that sounds profound because it is completely nonsensical. It often manifests itself kinda like this: "There really is no such thing as the truth. Truth is a human abstraction and your version of truth is based on your faith in the scientific method and rationalism. Hence, it is no different than the religious faith because people use it to form their own personal versions of the truth." What a bunch of bs. The very fact that we are posting these comments on a website demonstrates the awesome power of science. What has faith ever given humanity? I think it is fair to say that faith had very important functions in the past. But we have had better alternatives for faith and religion for quite some time now. I think it's about time that we embrace them.

There is no doubt that we can produce evidence of the good and bad effects of religion. I happen to think the negative outweighs the positive(especially since we have other and better reasons to be good). But no one has produced any evidence for the existence of God. However, God and religion in general have been debunked over and over again. From what we now know about the universe (thanks to science and rational thought) the existence of any supreme being is very highly unlikely.

I suppose you could just be messing around though.

Other Comments by roach

38. Comment #20381 by cheshirecat on February 2, 2007 at 4:51 am

I'm not messing around. I'm just playing with a few ideas seeing what criticisms people come up with.

I dont think I was being post-modern (though some postmodernist criticisms of the historical method are actually quite good). Nor was I saying anything about truth, evolution or science. Evolution is not a point of view, it is as true as anything can be. I was making a modernist criticism of RDs mis-use of history (his bias) to prove that all religion is damaging all of this time. He selects historical evidence to suit his theory. I used the word 'narrative' which you assumed would make me a post-modernist, where as I just want to borrow the word. I object to him getting up and making shrill speaches to the effect that religion is 'the root of all evil'. Why write books about the complexity and variety of life and not accept such complexity morally or historically.

Other Comments by cheshirecat
Reload Comments | Back to Top

Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password:

This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
Why not share your comment on the article there as well? CLICK HERE