Tuesday, February 6, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version

Panel discussion on atheism where no atheists are included

CNN

Transcript:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0701/31/pzn.01.html

Part 1: Segment

Part 2: Panel

From:
http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=152444327&blogID=226256376&MyToken=2fec6ddb-0907-4625-be62-b1b8d262d98e

Paula Zahn Now: Karen Hunter, Debbie Schlussel, Stephen A. Smith on Atheism

Just how pervasive is discrimination against atheists in America? Reliable studies consistently show that atheists are more despised than any other minority, but to what degree do these anti-atheist feelings translate into anti-atheist action? Since people don't know a person is an atheist unless the atheist reveals it, there's probably much less anti-atheist discrimination than there otherwise could be. Sometimes, though, it's possible to detect the rot of bigotry in little things: like a panel discussion on atheism where no atheists are included.

Send a note to CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?11

More of Paula Zahn's quality journalism can be found here:
CNN still fixated on Apocalypse predictors

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1. Comment #20802 by MIND_REBEL on February 6, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Horribe, but typical of CNN.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

2. Comment #20803 by vdubmatt on February 6, 2007 at 4:59 pm

I find it hilarious that a sports comentator is the only one slightly defending atheism, while a pulitzer prize winner is saying "they need to shut up". The fact is that if someone said that the black movement "needed to shut up" about wanting desegregation it would be considered horendous. I do agree that atheism is not as much under attack in say NJ where I live, but it is a fact that alot of the country is extremely religious. I think that the Jewish community should be just as angry at CNN for the Jew they chose to represent them. She basically cowered at the fact that it is a christian nation. This video was just so udderly despicable. I used to think CNN was at least somewhat better than Fox news, I guess I was wrong.

Other Comments by vdubmatt

3. Comment #20804 by jefferson on February 6, 2007 at 5:00 pm

That was disgusting. This is NOT a Christian nation. There is a seperation of church and state in the USA (there's supposed to be one, at least). All of them ignored that fact.

Other Comments by jefferson

4. Comment #20805 by Shine on February 6, 2007 at 5:01 pm

"Freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion."

YES. IT. DOES.

I stopped watching after that. Perhaps that was an anti-intellectual move on my part, but I don't feel like getting more aggravated right now.

Other Comments by Shine

5. Comment #20806 by ksskidude on February 6, 2007 at 5:01 pm

How awful! How can CNN air such a biased report? Where was Dawkins, Harris? They would have been the voice of reason.
Please email CNN and let them know how terrible it was!

Other Comments by ksskidude

6. Comment #20807 by sankekorafi on February 6, 2007 at 5:01 pm

Well, I read the transcript. If you're looking for the interesting stuff, it's the last part of that article. But the most interesting thing on there is how evenly reviewed everything but the atheist debate was. The other discriminations were looked upon with some sympathy or were split into sides, but no one wanted to take the atheist side here... and certainly no one really understood our viewpoint or even considered it.

It is so depressing to see that such a view is deeply held by the media. Even the Jewish member of the debate said that America is a Christian nation.

And yes, there IS freedom FROM religion.

Other Comments by sankekorafi

7. Comment #20808 by eccles on February 6, 2007 at 5:02 pm

I saw this on the Exchristians Forum and last night I saw on local Autralian TV a docomentary about Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Since joining some MSN Chrisian vs Atheist Groups I have been horrified at the attitude of Christians towards Atheists. I note that Atheists make up only 10% of the Amercian Population and only 10% of those Atheists are game to admit to being Atheist. That is a terrible situation and does not happen in Australia. The anti-discrimination laws here are quite specific and Atheists have been successful in legal action against discrimination against them especially in the work place.

I don't think any Australian Christians believe in the literal interpretation of the bible, that "God" made the World in 6 days in 4004BCE. Yet about 50% of Americans believe it.
What is wrong with the USA? Will it get a name change to the United Christian States of America?

Other Comments by eccles

8. Comment #20809 by a tree with roots on February 6, 2007 at 5:02 pm

That was awful. I cringe to think that some people take this type of program seriously.

Other Comments by a tree with roots

9. Comment #20811 by sankekorafi on February 6, 2007 at 5:06 pm

Just sent this to CNN:

The recent discussion about atheism was offensive. I cannot be convinced that anyone in the discussion knew anything about atheists at all or what our concerns are or, in fact, about the founders of our nation (many of whom were suprizingly NOT Christians ie. Thomas Jefferson and George Washington). I think it is shameful that not a single atheist was on this panel to defend our position. I highly recommend that CNN request someone from American Atheists or the Center for Inquiry to refute this recent non-debate where the bigotry against atheists (while denied by the members of the debate) was firmly and disgustingly demonstrated.

Other Comments by sankekorafi

10. Comment #20813 by Shine on February 6, 2007 at 5:12 pm

sankekorafi

That was excellent. I'm going to write something to them in the same vein and I recommend that others do the same. This is very aggravating.

Anyone else remember when CNN was considered the standard for the best in American cable news journalism? How far they have fallen.

Other Comments by Shine

11. Comment #20815 by CruciFiction on February 6, 2007 at 5:17 pm

Damn it! We've been "SHUT UP" for decades now. But no longer. They WILL hear us.

Other Comments by CruciFiction

12. Comment #20816 by Sinful Messiah on February 6, 2007 at 5:20 pm

I sent my angry email to them.

I hope everyone else does the same.

Other Comments by Sinful Messiah

13. Comment #20819 by astrosteed on February 6, 2007 at 5:31 pm

Wow - Rupert would be proud. This was the most feeble and unbalanced panel they could possibly come up with, probably to ensure that there wasn't any serious discussion of atheism. Seriously, it's pathetic: a discussion group about atheists being discriminated against in which there are no atheist present. It's like some twisted ironic tautology. What's next, a discussion group on feminism with Hugh Hefner, Larry Flynt, and Bill Maher to cover all the sides of the issue?

Other Comments by astrosteed

14. Comment #20821 by godma on February 6, 2007 at 5:42 pm

I'd like to believe that this will go toward proving the point that atheists are unfairly discriminated against by the culture. The two anti-atheists on the panel were obviously over the top. Any Christian watching this should be embarrassed.

It just might be helpful to our cause to have things like this aired from time to time (so long as it doesn't become the norm). It reveals the ridiculousness of the opposition's viewpoint so well.

Other Comments by godma

15. Comment #20823 by Russell Blackford on February 6, 2007 at 5:43 pm

Smith did a pretty good of defending freedom of speech, so I commend him for that.

Overall, though, this was a shambles. The moderator was hopeless at getting any order into the debate. The panel - well, for all I know they may be intelligent, considered people who would make a better impression in some other format (I'm trying to be charitable). But they came across as a bunch of loudmouthed village yokels shouting over the top of each other.

Of course, in principle, there should have been an actual atheist on the panel, and that point can't be over-emphasised. On the other hand, Smith did enough to show up the extreme (and frightening) illiberalism of the other two, just by harping on the fact that America is supposed to believe in basic freedoms, such as freedom of speech and freedom of belief on matters of religion. It was good to see the others made to look like wild-eyed fanatics by a fellow religionist, and by their own capacity to self-destruct, without an actual atheist having to say anything at all.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

16. Comment #20824 by MIND_REBEL on February 6, 2007 at 5:46 pm

"Damn it! We've been "SHUT UP" for decades now. But no longer. They WILL hear us."

Disgusting, par for the course with CNN. This is the same network that brought us the "so poor, so black" comment.

I said it before, and i will say it again, Atheism is the civil rights movement version 2.0.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

17. Comment #20826 by ketandev on February 6, 2007 at 5:49 pm

This is utterly preposterous!
First of all Paula Zahn cannot control an interview of this type. She always lets them off easy with blind claims and accusations against atheists.
Secondly, it is awfully shameful when a pulitzer prize winner is telling atheists to shut up because clearly she feels threatened by their intelligence.
The fat white chick is there just to fill in a spot.
and finally, I applaud the Sports commentator, who was the only person who was gutsy enough to voice his objective opinion even though hedisagrees with atheism.

I DARE CNN to bring on Sam Harris or the great RD to drill some intelligence ino these deluded pricks.

Other Comments by ketandev

18. Comment #20827 by kkant on February 6, 2007 at 5:50 pm

My angry email to CNN:

The recent Paula Zahn panel discussion on "discrimination against atheists" was pretty atrocious and brought to light some fairly neanderthal attitudes.

Karen Hunter said "[atheists] should just shut up". I wonder how she would feel about the leaders of the civil rights movement being told to "just shut up". Martin Luther King, just shut up. Disgusting.

Another point was made: "America is a Christian country". That is untrue. Look no further than Thomas Jefferson for confirmation. Before 1776 we had almost two millenia of Christian governments; and all we got for it was the Dark Ages and the Inquisition. In 1776 they decided to do something new: separation of church and state. And only 200 years later, look where we are now. Church/State separation is unquestionably one of the reasons for this positive effect.

Related issue: "freedom of religion is not freedom from religion". What is that supposed to mean? It's illegal to be an atheist? We should force sectarian prayers in schools? Why not just let the kids pray in school if they want to, and leave the forced prayer where it belongs: in church.

Finally, why was there not an atheist on your panel? You had a discussion about atheism, with no atheists present. On the contrary all of them seemed to be very fervent believers in God. This discussion looked very much like something from Fox "News".

Other Comments by kkant

19. Comment #20830 by MIND_REBEL on February 6, 2007 at 5:59 pm

Sam Harris is a regular on Fox News. I'm glad that you guys are starting to wake up, and realize that liberalism is just as dogmatic as religion.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

20. Comment #20831 by PrimeNumbers on February 6, 2007 at 5:59 pm

I've also just complained to CNN about their straw man approach to Atheism. Not only did the panelists not know about Atheists, they didn't have any knowledge of the Constitution or US history. They were rude and condescending.

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

21. Comment #20832 by harryh28 on February 6, 2007 at 5:59 pm

quote "This is a Christian country"
So was it OK to discriminate against black people because it is a white country ?

Other Comments by harryh28

22. Comment #20848 by Dog Boots on February 6, 2007 at 7:05 pm

I have also written a short objection and want to encourage all others to do the same.

Other Comments by Dog Boots

23. Comment #20850 by lpetrich on February 6, 2007 at 7:21 pm

I wonder if Karen Hunter in that panel would enjoy being told things like:

* She ought to shut up about religion and let her husband instruct her (1 Corinthians 14:34-35, 1 Corinthians 11:3-10, Ephesians 5:22-24, Colossians 3:18, 1 Timothy 2:11-12).

* She has the curse of Ham (Genesis 9:20-27) on her, and therefore that she should be submissive to white people and shut up.

And Stephen A. Smith also told the latter.

And Debbie Schlussel told that she is nothing but a Christ-killer.

Other Comments by lpetrich

24. Comment #20851 by mr harry on February 6, 2007 at 7:24 pm

Please send in your comments if you find the report lacking, as I did:

I am responding to the Paula Zahn Now report on Atheism. The report itself was not bad, but the following panel discussion was, frankly, a disgrace to CNN and the American news-media. It's a sad state of affairs when a sports columnist is defending the ideals of freedom while two professional journalists display such a sickening degree of bigotry and intolerance. I, as an atheist, was extremely offended. Ms. Zahn did nothing to moderate the discussion, or offer any differing point of view in the absence of one on the panel. It is obvious that the panelists had no conceivable idea about what atheists are all about. At the very least there should have been an atheist on the panel to offer a contrasting point of view, and to challenge such inane comments, as: "[atheists] need to shut up," "atheists don't have any beliefs," and "freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion." I am sure there are plenty of atheists who would be glad to have a panel discussion on national TV. You should contact author Sam Harris, who has appeared many times on cable news.

The US as a Christian nation, prayer in schools, religious discrimination, and the First Amendment are all relevant issues which can be debated rationally, but this panel discussion was nothing more than an anti-atheist bash-fest. What I just witnessed was akin to having a panel discussion on black civil rights with two Klansmen and a Nazi.

Why do atheists inspire such hatred? I would look at the faith-heads if you're trying to solve that problem. Ironically, the attitudes of bigotry and intolerance that was displayed by both panelists (Hunter and Schlussel) essentially proved the reports premise true�

I am extremely disappointed with CNN.

Other Comments by mr harry

25. Comment #20855 by simplicio on February 6, 2007 at 7:55 pm

I have written my objections to CNN. It's great to see so many of us pushing back against this! It is my hope that, thanks to the courage of people like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Dennett, Randi . . . and groups of support such as this website, atheists will begin to find their voice and get organized.

Other Comments by simplicio

26. Comment #20856 by MarcKeys on February 6, 2007 at 7:57 pm

That was quite simply horrible.

Other Comments by MarcKeys

27. Comment #20859 by savroD on February 6, 2007 at 8:10 pm

This is simply bad journalism. Paula Zahn is a well paid idiot. I heard another female journalist, (CChung), ask Michael Newdow why does he hate god, when he was doing interviews related to his Supreme Court case. I couldn't believe it. I know I'll sound prejudiced here; however, where do they find these bimbos. There is probably a one in ten thousand trillion shot that Paula Zahn will ever read this post. If she did I want her to know that there are some people who know what a mockery of journalism this was. Furthermore, the females guests were despicable, in every sense of the word. At least the one man there was trying to get these morons to cut some slack.

Other Comments by savroD

28. Comment #20862 by Sancus on February 6, 2007 at 8:36 pm

I can't believe people still watch cable news. It's amazing. Watching this is like reflecting on stone age material in a museum.

Will someone ask the 20th century to please die already?

Other Comments by Sancus

29. Comment #20863 by ksskidude on February 6, 2007 at 8:50 pm

I have had a couple of hours to sit and ponder, and I am still angered by this so called panel. I spent the day in a MO court room watching a hearing once again whether of not the cloning of human cells through a process called SCNT, is the cloning of a human being. The only real oppostion comes from people of faith, and not people of science or reason.
As an atheist I am so frustrated, because I want to speak out on how ridiculous quoting scripture is when contemplating the benefits of embryonic stem cell research. Yet do not voice my atheistic opinion for fear of motivating the ignorant masses of delusioned believers. Can you see what the opponents will say, "See Atheist believe in embryonic stem cell research,therfore it must be immoral."
I am geting sick and tired of people like these bigots on this broadcast.

Other Comments by ksskidude

30. Comment #20864 by harryh28 on February 6, 2007 at 8:56 pm

Hopefully this is an attempt by CNN management to steal back some Fox News market share. If the people with editorial control at CNN can't see this as what it is things are worse than we thought.

Or maybe the theist are just getting really scarred because they know they are going to have to face up to some hard emotional realities if too many atheists keep pointing out to them that they are deluded.

Other Comments by harryh28

31. Comment #20865 by Pieter on February 6, 2007 at 8:56 pm

personally my "favorite" part was when the panelists began lambasting michael newdow for 'exploiting' his daughter. that the child was to young to know what it was all about, etc. but at the same time we need prayer in schools. hilarious.

personally i'm with chris rock on the issue of school prayer. "we don't need prayer in schools; we need the tossed-salad man in schools. that'll straighten the kids out; jimmy you got a D, you know what you gotta do?"

Other Comments by Pieter

32. Comment #20866 by CDG on February 6, 2007 at 8:56 pm

Just emailed Paula Zahns program and told them how pathetic the panel discussion was. Told her to leave the weighty issues alone and stick with the Paris Hilton fluff as that seems more appropriate for her show and her audience. No level of sophistication whatsoever.

Other Comments by CDG

33. Comment #20868 by Induna on February 6, 2007 at 9:16 pm

"Militant athiests"? From little Mr. Golden Christian!

Pot, kettle, black, calling. Make a sentence!

Other Comments by Induna

34. Comment #20869 by NeoGothic on February 6, 2007 at 9:17 pm

MIND_REBEL said, "Sam Harris is a regular on Fox News. I'm glad that you guys are starting to wake up, and realize that liberalism is just as dogmatic as religion."

Ah, but you can't say this without admitting that you can have blind, dogmatic conservatism as well. Just look at the current "leadership" (I use the term loosely) here in the US. Ironically, most of those dogmatic christians out there who would delight in this poor excuse for a panel discussion are just as dogmatic about their conservative political stance.

On a side note I saw a cool bumper sticker a few days ago that read: "Liberals treat dogs like people while conservatives treat people like dogs."

Other Comments by NeoGothic

35. Comment #20870 by Convertedchristian on February 6, 2007 at 9:26 pm

It takes alot to get me mad about religon and atheism, but this was outrageous! To have the balls to say that this story is outrageous and that those poor people were the ones in the wrong instead of the religous people is just a scandle! How can that idoit say that? It just shows how the media makes the christians think that they are a minority that is getting thier rights taken away. OH, and by the way lady, it imposes on my rights when my kid( if i had one) is forced to sit in a class where most of the kids are praying. This people are monsters! Where's jesus when we need him! If only they would atleast fallow the moral teachings of jesus, but no, they don't. When will it end? My generation will end it hopefully if the stats are correct it saying that only 4% of american teen will be bible believeing christians. Don't mind the spelling. I'm so mad I can't type!!!!

Other Comments by Convertedchristian

36. Comment #20871 by Glacian on February 6, 2007 at 9:32 pm

So Europe is becoming Muslim and we aren't because the U.S. has strong Christians and they don't? What kind of retarded horsecrap is that? The Jewish woman was worse than the one who kept saying atheists need to shut up. No, I take that back. She insists we can't try to impose on her right to force ALL children, regardless of belief, to pray to God? WTF? How can people this stupid figure out how to breathe after birth? Someone mentioned something about one of these folks having a Pulitzer prize. I call for it being revoked. This obnoxious report is worse than condescending, it's simply insipid and stupid to have people totally ignorant of atheism discuss it.

Would it have been too difficult for CNN to contact American Atheists or some other atheist group and ask if they wanted to send a representative?

Other Comments by Glacian

37. Comment #20872 by pyjamaslug on February 6, 2007 at 9:33 pm

Hmm, well I think you are being too hard on Paula Zahn. She asked repeatedly what it was about this tiny number of atheists which caused the panelists to react so defensively and feel that they are somehow threatened by them. No answer was given and any intelligent observer would be able to tell that the panelists were simply raving bigots who neither understand nor respect their own constitution.

It's an old and effective technique called giving someone enough rope to hang themselves. I will go out on a limb here and "vehemently suspect" Ms Zahn of atheistic sympathies!

Other Comments by pyjamaslug

38. Comment #20874 by ifonlytherewereagod on February 6, 2007 at 9:44 pm

"...athesits are not strong, and I think that's a good thing."

Wow.

I also love how theists constantly argue that we, as atheists, just need to "deal with it" while they have to have everything their way. The vast majority of theist vs. atheist arguements from the theistic perspective really boils down to "I'm right, you're wrong" and that is simly ridiculous.

Other Comments by ifonlytherewereagod

39. Comment #20876 by Sancus on February 6, 2007 at 9:53 pm

Jews are not strong, and I think that's a good thing.

Oh, wait, that sentence I just wrote was maniacally stupid.

Other Comments by Sancus

40. Comment #20877 by denoir on February 6, 2007 at 9:56 pm

Europe has become an islamic place thanks to atheism?

That "debate" was too stupid to be offensive, but it is disturbing if their line of thinking represents a majority view in America.

Other Comments by denoir

41. Comment #20880 by icouldbewrongbut on February 6, 2007 at 10:26 pm

In case you want to contact the panelists directly, from Google, looks like the two female panelists' email addresses are:

Karen Hunter:

(now corrected, sorry!)
professorhunter@aol.com
( http://filmmedia.hunter.cuny.edu/faculty_am.shtml )

Debbie Schlussel:

dschlussel@yahoo.com
( www.debbieschlussel.com )

Other Comments by icouldbewrongbut

42. Comment #20885 by GODLESS101 on February 6, 2007 at 10:58 pm

This was absolutely disgusting. As one other person pointed out on this forum, imagine the reaction had one of the so-called panelists told gays or blacks to "shut-up" with regards to their objections to bigotry and intolerance. Disgusting. If there ever was some silver lining with things of this nature, it is that we atheists will eventually become fed up. As religious delusions and bigotry force there way into our lives and government, and as more of this ilk becomes the norm, atheists are going to realize something profound; namely, that we have "shut up" for far too long.

Other Comments by GODLESS101

43. Comment #20886 by MacGruder on February 6, 2007 at 11:01 pm

There it was again...an inference that atheism is equated with immorality. Makes me think...maybe we should create an "Atheist pledge to morality". I think this might help many theists understand that athiesm doesn't necessarily equate to immorality.

I know many atheists will simply say 'tough - it's the theists' problem if they think we are immoral and it's not our role to prove otherwise.' However (and I cringe when I say this), I think we need to market ourselves better (there, I said it!).

I'm going to work on a draft of the pledge and get feed-back via this site. I even envision atheists pledging on-line as with the Blasphemy Challenge (perhaps I'm getting ahead of myself here!)

Other Comments by MacGruder

44. Comment #20887 by Richard Dawkins on February 6, 2007 at 11:35 pm

Pulitzer prize? And there was I thinking the Pulitzer prize was some kind of high prestige, coveted award (even though non-Americans are ineligible). Does anybody have a soberly reasoned explanation for how a person of such monumental stupidity and ignorance could ever have won a Pulitzer prize?

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

45. Comment #20888 by benjdm on February 6, 2007 at 11:44 pm

I'm not sure that email address will get you to the same Karen Hunter. The show identified her as a professor at Hunter college, which gives an email address for her at:

http://filmmedia.hunter.cuny.edu/faculty_am.shtml
professorhunter@aol.com

I do know this email address will get you to the correct Karen Hunter as I have emailed her and received a response.

MacGruder said: "There it was again...an inference that atheism is equated with immorality. Makes me think...maybe we should create an "Atheist pledge to morality"."

Something like that already exists. I don't know who put all the effort into it, but take a look at the Bible of the Good and Moral Atheist:
http://www.angelfire.com/planet/thebgma/index.html

Other Comments by benjdm

46. Comment #20889 by Joe_OD on February 6, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Go here to message Paula Zahn:
http://www.cnn.com/feedback/forms/form5.html?11

Other Comments by Joe_OD

47. Comment #20908 by tentotheminus9 on February 7, 2007 at 2:20 am

OK, do I laugh or cry now?

Other Comments by tentotheminus9

48. Comment #20914 by toaldingham on February 7, 2007 at 2:27 am

That was disgraceful.

Other Comments by toaldingham

49. Comment #20918 by Tremayne on February 7, 2007 at 2:54 am

The unilateral reproach targeting non-theists on CNN's Paul Zahn Now program comes as little surprise given CNN's ongoing efforts to take market share away from Fox News' influential conservative viewership. (The most blatant example of CNN's strategy to attract more conservative viewers was the hiring of slightly more restrained 'Bill O'Reilly' alter ego Glenn Beck.) This is a disturbing trend that will continue poisoning the atmosphere of rational discourse.

Televisions aren't called "idiot boxes" without good reason.

Other Comments by Tremayne

50. Comment #20921 by Martin on February 7, 2007 at 3:00 am