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Sunday, February 25, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Faith

by Guardian Unlimited

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/religion/Story/0,,2021337,00.html

Britain's new cultural divide is not between Christian and Muslim, Hindu and Jew. It is between those who have faith and those who do not. Stuart Jeffries reports on the vicious and uncompromising battle between believers and non-believers

protest
Protesters from different faiths join to oppose proposed new regulations on gay adoption. Photograph: Martin Godwin

The American journalist HL Mencken once wrote: "We must accept the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart." In Britain today, such wry tolerance is diminishing. Today, it's the religious on one side, and the secular on the other. Britain is dividing into intolerant camps who revel in expressing contempt for each other's most dearly held beliefs.

"We are witnessing a social phenomenon that is about fundamentalism," says Colin Slee, the Dean of Southwark. "Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube, the hardline settlers on the West Bank and the anti-gay bigots of the Church of England. Most of them would regard each other as destined to fry in hell.

"You have a triangle with fundamentalist secularists in one corner, fundamentalist faith people in another, and then the intelligent, thinking liberals of Anglicanism, Roman Catholicism, baptism, methodism, other faiths - and, indeed, thinking atheists - in the other corner. " says Slee. Why does he think the other two groups are so vociferous? "When there was a cold war, we knew who the enemy was. Now it could be anybody. From this feeling of vulnerability comes hysteria."

"We live together but we don't know each other," says Tariq Ramadan, the Muslim scholar and senior research fellow at St Antony's College, Oxford. "And this is something not just true of secularists, but of people of faith. I moved to Britain shortly after the July 7 2005 bombings in London and since then things have changed radically. Everyone treats the perceived 'other' as a threat."

Or so one might be forgiven for thinking if one listens to the most vocal of dogmatic believers and non-believers.

For example, Richard Dawkins, the British scientist and chair for the public understanding of science at Oxford University, whose perhaps timely insistence on the hideousness of the other fellow's wife and fatuousness of his offspring made his book, The God Delusion, sell 180,000 in hardback - a figure that rivals sales of Jordan's memoirs, thus demonstrating what an appetite there is for unapologetically militant atheism. This is the man so voguishly intemperate that when speaking to the Times recently about Nadia Eweida, the British Airways worker whose employer refused to allow her to wear a Christian cross openly to work, said: "I saw a picture of this woman. She had one of the most stupid faces I've ever seen."

Before The God Delusion was published, Dawkins wrote about something called Gerin oil that was poisoning human society. "Gerin oil (or Geriniol, to give it its scientific name) is a powerful drug that acts directly on the central nervous system to produce a range of characteristic symptoms, often of an antisocial or self-damaging nature. If administered chronically in childhood, Gerin oil can permanently modify the brain to produce adult disorders, including dangerous delusions that have proved very hard to treat. The four doomed flights of September 11 were, in a very real sense, Gerin oil trips: all 19 of the hijackers were high on the drug at the time." Gerin oil, of course, was an anagram of religion. His bestseller charged that God was a "psychotic delinquent", invented by mad, deluded people.

The backlash against Dawkins' abusiveness, as well as his arguments, has started. Oxford theologian Alister McGrath has just published The Dawkins Delusion?. He argues: "We need to treat those who disagree with us with intellectual respect, rather than dismissing them - as Dawkins does - as liars, knaves and charlatans. Many atheists have been disturbed by Dawkins' crude stereotypes and seemingly pathological hostility towards religion. In fact, The God Delusion might turn out to be a monumental own goal - persuading people that atheism is just as intolerant as the worst that religion can offer."

It is worth noting that The God Delusion included an appendix entitled "a partial list of addresses, for individuals needing support in escaping from religion". In this Dawkins offers a similar service to the National Secular Society whose certificate of de-baptism is downloadable from www.secularism.org.uk. "Liberate yourself from the Original Mumbo-Jumbo that liberated you from the Original Sin you never had," urges the site.

Dawkins and the National Secular Society, though, are no match for Christopher Hitchens in their hostility to religion. His new book, God Is Not Great: the Case Against Religion, is to be published by Atlantic Books in May. Its first chapter, drolly entitled Putting it Mildly, concludes: "As I write these words and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything." (Hitchens' italics.)

John Gray, professor of European Thought at the London School of Economics, whose book Black Mass: Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia will be published later this year, detects parallels between dogmatic believers and dogmatic unbelievers such as Hitchens and Dawkins. "It is not just in the rigidity of their unbelief that atheists mimic dogmatic believers. It is in their fixation on belief itself."

Gray argues that this fixation misses the point of religions: "The core of most religions is not doctrinal. In non-western traditions and even some strands of western monotheism, the spiritual life is not a matter of subscribing to a set of propositions. Its heart is in practice, in ritual, observance and (sometimes) mystical experience . . . When they dissect arguments for the existence of God, atheists parody the rationalistic theologies of western Christianity."

The intolerance for people of faith, though, might not seem to be the preserve of only angry atheists such as Dawkins and Hitchens. Instead, there is a widespread fear that religion is being treated as a problem to British society, best solved by airbrushing it from the public sphere. British Airways' insistence that employee Nadia Eweida remove her Christian cross, and Jack Straw's plea to Muslim women constituents to remove their veils at his surgery, have helped bring a sense of mutual persecution to many people of different faiths (including yarmulke-wearing Jews and turban-wearing Sikhs) - and a sense of solidarity. Many people of faith share a concern that Britain may be following secularist France, where 2004 reforms meant that "conspicuous religious symbols" could not be worn in public places, such as schools.

One particularly fraught current issue creating inter-faith solidarity is gay adoptions. Many Catholics, Anglicans, Muslims and Jews last month united against the government's sexual orientation regulations that would mean all adoption agencies could not discriminate against gay couples in placing children with adoptive parents.

Catholic leaders warned that their seven adoption agencies could not breach Vatican guidelines against allowing gay couples to adopt. Dr Muhammad Abdul Bari, secretary-general of the Muslim Council of Britain, supported the Catholics' stand, as did the Federation of Synagogues. And, of course, the issue of homosexuality is also dividing the Anglican communion. For evangelical groups such as Reform, the C of E is polarising into two churches, one "submitting to God's revelation", the other "shaped primarily by western secular culture". Again, western secular culture - if not of Dawkins' stamp - is seen as the worm in the apple, corrupting not just British society but the church itself. By contrast, for liberals in the church, whose number includes many gay vicars, the evangelicals' hostility to homosexuality seems unChristian, as does their stance on gay adoption.

The gay adoption issue also outraged many non-believers, among them philosopher AC Grayling, author of Life, Sex and Ideas: The Good Life without God. "These groups are trying to be exempt from the effort to be a fair society, and we are faced with the threat of a possible return to the dark ages. We are trying to keep a pluralistic society, and elements in the Christian church and other religions are trying to destroy it."

Why this departure from tolerant, if nicely ironic, Menckenism? Why the increasing division of Britain into shrill camps shouting unedifyingly at each other? One thing is certain: we've been here before. In 1860, one year after the publication of Darwin's On the Origin of Species, the Bishop of Oxford, Samuel Wilberforce, and TH Huxley, the naturalist described as "Darwin's bulldog", went toe-to-toe at Oxford's Natural History Museum. According to a contemporary report in McMillan's magazine, "The bishop turned to his antagonist with smiling insolence. He begged to know, was it through his grandfather or his grandmother that he claimed his descent from a monkey? Huxley rose to reply ... He [said he] was not ashamed to have a monkey for his ancestor; but he would be ashamed to be connected with a man who used great gifts to obscure the truth ... One lady fainted and had to be carried out."

"At that time the church was feeling very threatened and uncomfortable with non-religious society," says Hanne Stinson, executive director of the British Humanist Association. "There is a parallel with today - the church is feeling very threatened." Hence, perhaps, the nature of a dispute at Exeter University where the Christian Union was banned from using student union facilities after the Students' Guild charged that the CU was breaking equal opportunities policy by asking members to sign up to a list of beliefs that were discriminatory against non-Christians and gay people. The CU accused the guild of threatening its right to freedom of expression by imposing the ban: as in the gay adoption issue, anti-discrimination policy was running up against religious conviction. The Exeter ban has been repeated at other universities, prompting the Archbishop of Canterbury to argue that the bans threaten "the integrity of the whole educational process".

But today everyone is feeling threatened. Not just religious groups, but also pressure groups seeking to represent those without faith (who Stinson, citing last December's Ipsos Mori poll, suggests amount to 36% of Britons). Slee argues that low (below 7%) church attendance is a result of Christians being revolted by "the church presenting itself as narrow and non-inclusive".

In any event, the British Humanist Association campaigns against the existence of religious privileges in public life. Its symbolic struggle is BBC Radio 4's Thought for the Day slot, which the BHA argues unfairly excludes humanists and other non-faith people. But Radio 4 isn't the chief culprit: "We believe that the church having privileged access to government is not good," says Stinson. "The government has had this whole thing about giving a voice to religion, which was connected to the aim of building links with minority groups. But religions have become more and more dominating . It does connect to the whole multiculturalism debate because the government is funding faith schools in order to bind British minority ethnic groups to British society. But in so doing they are paying for people to be indoctrinated, to put it bluntly."

The role of religion in education raises a terrifying spectre for Grayling. "People who cherish tolerant argument are fighting back against the teaching of creationism in schools." Last November the Guardian revealed that 59 British schools were using teaching materials promoting a creationist alternative to Darwinian evolution, called intelligent design. At the same time Dawkins, nicknamed "Darwin's rottweiler", announced he was setting up a charity that will subsidise books, pamphlets and DVDs attacking the "educational scandal" of theories such as creationism while promoting rational and scientific thought.

Atheists such as Dawkins and Grayling fear that Britain may become more like the US, where creationism has more than a foothold. "In the US, two and half million people are educated at home because their parents don't want them exposed to Darwinian thinking," says Grayling. "Instead, they are often exposed to fundamentalist educational literature such as the A Beka books that maintain the world was created in 6,000 BC and that tyrannosaurus rex was a vegetarian. These developments worry intelligent people when the faith school issue comes up."

Indeed, only last week such intelligent people were worrying when the Tory leader, David Cameron, said he would be sending his daughter to a Church of England primary school instead of one of the many non-faith state schools in his area.

Children's author Philip Pullman argues that atheism should be taught in schools. "What I fear and deplore in the 'faith school' camp is their desire to close argument down and put some things beyond question or debate. It's vital to get clear in young minds what is a faith position and what is not, so that, for instance, they won't be taken in by religious people claiming that science is a faith position no different in kind from Christianity. Science is not a matter of faith, and too many people are being allowed to get away with claiming that it is."

Others argue that faith schools should be abolished and religion have no role in public life. Such is the Dawkins-Hitchens position. Why such hatred for religion and the proselytisation for its removal from the public sphere? One answer comes from Rabbi Julia Neuberger: "I think they're so angry about Muslims being so strident," she says. "And then they become angry about the Church of England wading into the issue of gays and adoption."

Neuberger is to take on Hitchens, Dawkins and Grayling when she speaks at a debate against the motion We'd Be Better Off Without Religion next month. The debate has been moved to a bigger venue. "What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt," she says. "No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest. "

This is a thought taken up by Azzim Tamimi, director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought. "I refer to secular fundamentalism. The problem is that these people believe that they have the absolute truth. That means you have no room to talk to others so you end up having a physical fight. They want to close the door and ignore religion, but this will provoke a violent religiosity. If someone seeks to deny my existence, I will fight to assert it."

Tamimi's words also resonate with what the Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, said last November: "The aggressive secularists pervert and abuse any notion of diversity for the sake of promoting a narrow agenda." They also parallel the chilling remarks of Richard Chartres, Bishop of London: "If you exile religious communities to the margins, then they will start to speak the words of fire among consenting adults, and the threat to public order and the public arena, I think, will grow and grow."

Another reason for secularist rage at people of faith, one might think, is exasperation on the part of militant atheists that religion has not died out as they hoped. "It has taken centuries and centuries to wrestle away from the churches the levers of power," says Grayling.

Tamimi contends that this was not quite what happened. Rather, he suggests that Christians were complicit in their marginalisation from power. "Christians did that to themselves - they allowed religion to move to the private sphere. That would be intolerable for Muslims." Why? "Partly because secularism doesn't mean the same for Muslims from the Middle East. The story of secularism in the Middle East is not one of democracy, as we are always told it was in the west. Instead, it is associated with tyranny - with Ataturk in Turkey, for instance. Islam is compatible with democracy, but not with this secular fundamentalism we are witnessing."

Grayling contends that during the late 20th century, Islam became more militant and assertive and this has changed British society radically. "In Britain we have seen Muslims burn Salman Rushdie's book. And to an extent other religions wanted to get a bit of the action - hence the protests against Jerry Springer: the Opera." When Stewart Lee, one of the writers of Jerry Springer, was interviewed amid protests against the allegedly blasphemous work being screened on TV, he suggested that Islamic culture had been more careful in protecting itself than Christian culture: "In the west, Christianity relinquished the right to be protective of its icons the day Virgin Mary snow globes were put up for sale at the Vatican. But in Islamic culture it is very different. To use a corporate image, Islam has always been a lot more conscientious about protecting its brand." Now other religions are becoming more publicly conscientious.

One example of this growing conscientiousness is a recent paper for the new public theology think-tank Theos, in which Nick Spencer concluded that in the 21st century, liberal humanism would face a challenge from an "old man" - God. "The feeble and slightly embarrassing old man who had been pacing about the house quietly mumbling to himself suddenly wanted to participate in family conversation and, what's more, to be taken seriously." Indeed, in Britain's ethically repellent consumerist society, even some atheists might consider it would be good to hear from the old man again, if only to provide a moral framework beyond shopping.

The refrain of Christians like Spencer is that unless religion is a part of public-policy debates, then society will be impoverished. Last November the Archbishop of Canterbury gave a lecture in which he distinguished between programmatic and procedural secularism. The former meant that in the public domain, everybody had to silence their fundamental convictions and debate in a value-free atmosphere of public neutrality. For Williams, this was a hopeless way of carrying on public discourse in a bewildering society that embraced not only many faiths but many anti-faith positions, and in which real disputes over very different values needed to take place. Better was procedural secularism, which promised that different groups could at least converse with each other in public discussions over sensitive questions of value and policy. This would involve, said Williams, "a crowded and argumentative public square that acknowledges the authority of a legal mediator or broker whose job it is to balance and manage real difference".

It is an idea similar to one set out by Yahya Birt, research fellow at The Islamic Foundation. "One form of secularism suggests that religion should be kept in the private sphere. That's Dawkins' position. Another form, expressed by philosophers suc has Isaiah Berlin and John Gray, is to do with establishing a modus vivendi. It accepts that you come to the public debate with baggage that will inform your arguments. In this, the government tries to find common ground and the best possible consensus, which can only work if we share enough to behave civilly. Of course, there will be real clashes over issues such as gay adoption, but it's not clear to me that that's a problem per se."

What should such a public square be like? It might not be Menckian, but it could be based on respectful understanding of others' most cherished beliefs, argues Spencer: "We should be more willing to treat other value systems as coherent, reasonable and even valuable rather than as primitive or grotesque mutations of liberal humanism to which every sane person adheres." It is, at least, a hope, albeit one, given our current climate, in which it would be foolish to place too much faith.

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1. Comment #23006 by Roland Deschain on February 25, 2007 at 8:56 pm

"Last November the Archbishop of Canterbury gave a lecture in which he distinguished between programmatic and procedural secularism. The former meant that in the public domain, everybody had to silence their fundamental convictions and debate in a value-free atmosphere of public neutrality. For Williams, this was a hopeless way of carrying on public discourse in a bewildering society that embraced not only many faiths but many anti-faith positions, and in which real disputes over very different values needed to take place. Better was procedural secularism, which promised that different groups could at least converse with each other in public discussions over sensitive questions of value and policy."

You cannot converse when there is even a tint of religious dogma in the arguments. How are we to distinguish between the Christian dogma or the Muslim dogma? It cannot be done through reason, as the core of the dogma is faith, and that is beyond reason. So stop trying to subdivide secularism (smells a lot like the subdivide of microevolution/macroevolution and historical science/empirical science done due to conflicts with religion). Secularism is not based on moral relativism and it's not based on an absolute totem of moral certainty. It's based on reason and evidence, a domain that all of us, regardless of our core dogmas, can take part in.

It is just sad that when reason and evidence contradict the dogmas of one group of people, they inevitably demand that reason and evidence be thrown out the window so that their cherished believes can be treated with kid's gloves. If a religious person cannot find evidence for his/her convictions besides the cop-out of faith (or the hilariously inaccurate holy scripture of choice), why should anybody pay them any attention.

If I sound harsh, tough luck. My believes are utterly open to attack as they are based on reason. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same of the guy who demands that gays are evil because a 2000 year old book said so (but when the same book says that the Earth is 6000 years old, it must be taken metaphorically, of course).

Other Comments by Roland Deschain

2. Comment #23008 by Kimpatsu on February 25, 2007 at 9:25 pm

 avatarThese liars and charlatans like Colin Slee still don't get it. There is no such thing as a fundamentalist atheist, because unlike Slee, an atheist can be persuaded to change their mind. All I need to become a believer is sufficient evidence. All Slee has to do is give it to me.
I'm still waiting...

Other Comments by Kimpatsu

3. Comment #23010 by Mr. Mark on February 25, 2007 at 9:45 pm

"Most of them would regard each other as destined to fry in hell."

Except for the atheists, who don't believe there's a hell in which to fry.

Other Comments by Mr. Mark

4. Comment #23011 by Jez on February 25, 2007 at 9:49 pm

"it would be good to hear from the old man again, if only to provide a moral framework beyond shopping."

Yeah, you unfaithful, unmoral lot; start stoning people who pick up sticks on a Sunday instead...

"It accepts that you come to the public debate with baggage that will inform your arguments"

Like the bible?

Other Comments by Jez

5. Comment #23012 by PsyPro on February 25, 2007 at 10:09 pm

 avatarThe last paragraph claims, in essence, that we should all be *reasonable*, *respect* the opinions of others, and then, *something*.

It is the something that disturbs me. In my country, Canada, often considered the most tolerant country on the planet, we also have a tradition known as``uncivil obedience'', borne of one of our civil libertarian leaders, Alan Bovoroy <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Borovoy>. We do not tolerate bullshit: we fight it. Unlike civil disobedience (which we decry), we (Canadians) do so within in the law: but, we also do so in as nasty a way we can. If we can make the nutbars out as nutbars, we do so.

Tolerance does not mean NICE; indeed, nice is NOT the issue, truth is. That is only way tolerance of any kind can survive. The Canadian model of tolerance has often been misunderstood, even within Canada, but NICE is not its root. That which is still open for debate (or, importantly, of no consequence-- you want to colour yourself purple?) we Canadians as a group and constitutionally don't care, and don't rule upon. But, if you require that somebody other than yourself colour themselves purple? We get upset. And we invoke our constitution, which, unfortunately, in a weak moment by one of our most otherwise enlightened leaders (Trudeau) includes god garbage. What can I say? I am shamed. The rest is good though. ;-)

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6. Comment #23013 by Roy_H on February 25, 2007 at 10:10 pm

 avatar"Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube". O.K. Hands up all those who have met an atheist suicide bomber?

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7. Comment #23014 by Janus on February 25, 2007 at 10:47 pm

 avatarI'd love to see a negative article on Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, or militant atheism in general that doesn't resort to lies, strawmen, and misrepresentations.

It would make it easier for me to believe that people who "disagree with me" aren't profoundly dishonest.

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8. Comment #23015 by PsyPro on February 25, 2007 at 11:09 pm

 avatarJanus is right, apparently.

We should do our best to rise to the challenge. So, what are our best arguments against theism? Yes, Dawkins and Dennett (and innumerable others over the centuries) covered 99.99% of the ground, leaving open only the ``well we can't prove a negative'' (and then showing how they can disprove any negative worth holding).

But there is apparently something left that we still need to challenge (nutbars always have their day). Apparently. And that would be? Something like, well, it just feels good to me? C'mon. I am a past-parent (my son is now 22) and we dealt with this when he was about 4. If you encounter any one older that is still so confused, I recommend false sympathy and sight-lines to a fast exit. You really have a life to live and better things to do.

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9. Comment #23017 by Old Coppernose on February 25, 2007 at 11:17 pm

Janus on February 25, 2007 at 10:47 pm

"I'd love to see a negative article on Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, or militant atheism in general that doesn't resort to lies, strawmen, and misrepresentations."

You're unlikely to get that because generally what RD writes is true. If TGD is an example of militant atheism, then it does not say "God does not exist" it says "God almost certainhly does not exist". Atheism by its nature is not truly militant imo in that atheists dont usually demand anything that a theist shouldnt also agree with - such as freedom of (And from) religion, separation of church and state, etc.

MY name is Peter, and I was reading Dawkins on a train and a woman asked me if I was an atheist. I have usually called myself an agnostic, and hesitated before saying "yes". I swear I could hear a cock crowing.

I'm not sure its a good idea for folks to call themselves "militant aheists" as it suggests an extremism that few atheists have.

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10. Comment #23018 by Janus on February 25, 2007 at 11:33 pm

 avatar
I'm not sure its a good idea for folks to call themselves "militant aheists" as it suggests an extremism that few atheists have.


You're right, of course. I used the word "militant" to specify that I was talking about atheists who critique religion and try to promote reason, like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, and most of us who frequent this website. I agree that "militant" suggests extremism and aggresiveness, and so may not be the ideal adjective.

The problem is that I don't see what other word I can use.

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11. Comment #23019 by Russell Blackford on February 25, 2007 at 11:37 pm

I'm usually very temperate in this forum, partly because I've chosen to use my real name here ... but I have to say that this is a very stupid article.

The suggestion of a moral equivalence between people who use reason and persuasion, like Dawkins, and morally overreaching religionists, with their record of using force and terror to get their way, is simply odious. The claim that the former represent a kind of fundamentalism is an Orwellian abuse of the language.

And as for the abominable expression "people of faith" - analogous to "people of colour", as if it is religionists who have rational cause to fear persecution and intolerance - well, this is one of my pet hates. I am currently on a one-person mission to challenge this expression; anyone here want to join in?

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12. Comment #23020 by Russell Blackford on February 25, 2007 at 11:39 pm

Janus: "forthright" is a good word.

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13. Comment #23021 by Janus on February 25, 2007 at 11:45 pm

 avatar
Janus: "forthright" is a good word.



LMAO! Okay, I like it.

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14. Comment #23022 by pholt on February 25, 2007 at 11:47 pm

I'm not sure its a good idea for folks to call themselves "militant aheists" as it suggests an extremism that few atheists have.


The only people who use that expression are faithheads attempting to discredit atheists, particularly high-profile, effective ones like Dawkins.

This is a thought taken up by Azzim Tamimi, director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought. "I refer to secular fundamentalism. The problem is that these people believe that they have the absolute truth.


And the religious don't? Do me a bloody favour! Continuing the quote:

That means you have no room to talk to others so you end up having a physical fight. They want to close the door and ignore religion, but this will provoke a violent religiosity. If someone seeks to deny my existence, I will fight to assert it."


more:

They also parallel the chilling remarks of Richard Chartres, Bishop of London: "If you exile religious communities to the margins, then they will start to speak the words of fire among consenting adults, and the threat to public order and the public arena, I think, will grow and grow."


The idiot Jeffries spends all this time bashing atheists but completely glosses over the fact that these people are threatening violence if they are not allowed to continue impose their delusions on the rest of us.

Jeffries, show us an example of secularists making threats like this. You can't, because the only 'weapon' in our arsenal is reason.

The final nail in the coffin is Jeffries quoting the laughable McGrath.

This entire article is a perfect example of moderate religiosity enabling the fundamentalist variety.

Other Comments by pholt

15. Comment #23025 by Macho Nachos on February 25, 2007 at 11:51 pm

 avatar"...detects parallels between dogmatic believers and dogmatic unbelievers such as Hitchens and Dawkins. "It is not just in the rigidity of their unbelief that atheists mimic dogmatic believers. It is in their fixation on belief itself.""

This isn't entirely inaccurate. However, 'militant' atheists like Dawkins are fixated on belief because they feel the rational, moral imperative to point out the problems with faith. An equivalent is like saying Martin Luther King was fixated on racism. Being fixated on people being rational, stopping indoctrination, and promoting logic and questioning is not a BAD thing, as this sentence implies.

I've never heard of a militant atheist killing or harming anyone in the name of Atheism.

Other Comments by Macho Nachos

16. Comment #23026 by Howzat on February 25, 2007 at 11:52 pm

What a depressing article.. if only they could actually interview Dawkins to get his views (or just read his book with an open mind) so they could stop completely misrepresenting him.

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17. Comment #23027 by gav1970 on February 25, 2007 at 11:58 pm

 avatarI stopped reading when I got to;

"Neuberger is to take on Hitchens, Dawkins and Grayling when she speaks at a debate against the motion We'd Be Better Off Without Religion next month. The debate has been moved to a bigger venue. "What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt," she says. "No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest. "

Talk about intellectual dishonesty!! "You can't prove a negative therefore God exists." What rubbish.

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18. Comment #23028 by Stewart on February 26, 2007 at 12:02 am

What's with all these sentences that omit a sensible ending?:

"Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world are just as fundamentalist as the people setting off bombs on the tube, the hardline settlers on the West Bank and the anti-gay bigots of the Church of England [with the negligible difference that they've never even threatened, let alone carried out, acts of physical violence commensurate to their intolerance.]"

"We should be more willing to treat other value systems as coherent, reasonable and even valuable [regardless of their lack of coherence, lack of reasonableness and lack of value.]"

How much violence emanating from only one side of this conflict will it take till people realise what "intolerance" actually means?

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19. Comment #23029 by Janus on February 26, 2007 at 12:02 am

 avatar
No you wouldn't. And in your eyes that would be impossible. Because if anyone disagrees with your faith then by definition they must be resorting to lies, strawmen and misrepresentation. There have been numerous articles which have ripped TGD to shreds. But the believers still keep the faith.


I have read a few negative comments about TGD (and what Dawkins says in general) that I either agree with, or that I disagree with but recognize as not entirely worthless/dishonest. However, these comments are always found in relatively neutral articles that contain positive _and_ negative comments. Lawrence Krauss' review of TGD comes to mind.

I'd be curious to see an example of a review which you think has "ripped TGD to shreds". Just one.


But the trouble is that under the guise of 'moderate' atheism the [forthright atheists] flourish!


I fucking wish. Unfortunately the reverse seems to be true.



EDIT: Ohhh, I missed this little gem:
In the 20th Century Stalin encouraged his troops to committ suicide in the name of atheism.


Can you support this claim?



Other Comments by Janus

20. Comment #23032 by Marco Malta on February 26, 2007 at 12:39 am

So long as atheists continue on the liberal leftist path xians and the like will continue to attack. Most people have returned to xianity as a front against liberal leftist cultural destroying. It is one of their last hopes of an identity, the next is the far-right.

There are no rational arguments for issues that most people see as destructive to traditional values.

As full of nonsense that religious folk may be I would fight on their side in this cultural war.

get rid of the liberal leftist baggage and you will reduce the religious nuts ranks very quickly.

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21. Comment #23033 by fonex_86 on February 26, 2007 at 12:42 am

stpetes:

"If TGD is an example of militant atheism, then it does not say "God does not exist" it says "God almost certainhly does not exist"."

Pathetic. And ignorant. When TGD says 'GOd almost certainly does not exist' it is a rhetorical device and a scientific necessity (because in absolute terms all science has to be theorhetically provisional). Dawkins places belief in God on a par with belief in the tooth fairy. He believes in neither. Don't play word games.


You, sir, are the pathetically ignorant here. The point here is that the good professor never claimed knowledge of the nonexistence of god, while his opponents usually claim certain knowledge of god's existence. It is not 'word games', as you might suggest -- I dare say that if Prof. Dawkins had wrote 'There is no God' you would have pounced on this and demanded his evidence. It would then be apparent that you're the one playing games -- intellectually dishonest ones too.

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22. Comment #23034 by fonex_86 on February 26, 2007 at 12:47 am

Marco Malta:

get rid of the liberal leftist baggage and you will reduce the religious nuts ranks very quickly.


Would you mind, sir, to elaborate on what exactly constitutes "liberal leftist baggage"? In case it is "demand the respect that we should rightfully receive, in the face of decades of discrimination", then I cordially invite you to tie an anvil to your neck and drop anchor at a harbor near you.

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23. Comment #23037 by epeeist on February 26, 2007 at 1:41 am

 avatarComment #23023 by stpetes
When TGD says 'GOd almost certainly does not exist' it is a rhetorical device and a scientific necessity (because in absolute terms all science has to be theorhetically provisional).

You have your logic wrong. Science it hypothetico-deductive, thus its conclusions are either valid or invalid.

Whereas the proof of god's existence is inductive and therefore probabilistic. The probability is increased by adding demonstrably true premisses. Since these have not been provided by the faith community then Dawkins is correct in asserting that the probability of the existence of god is small.

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24. Comment #23039 by Grandt on February 26, 2007 at 2:31 am

Strange to see that no one so far have noticed or commented the irony/humor in the article number in the URL :-)

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25. Comment #23040 by bitbutter on February 26, 2007 at 2:50 am

 avatarJulia Neuberger
What I find really distasteful is not just the tone of their rhetoric, but their lack of doubt


'distasteful' lol!

There _is_ doubt expressed in TGD about the question of the non-existence of gods. Just the right amount of doubt: a vanishingly small amount. The same amount reserved for question of the existence of Thor, the pink unicorn etc.

No scientific method says that there is no doubt. If you don't accept there's doubt in all things, you're being intellectually dishonest.


yes; and if you pretend that the existence of a currently fashionable god is more likely than the existence of Thor or the pink unicorn you're also being intellectually dishonest.

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26. Comment #23042 by KeithD on February 26, 2007 at 2:53 am

Lets face it Colin Slee is only safeguarding his pecuniary interests. Paraphrasing H L Mencken:
'The function that a clergyman performs in this world is that he gets his living by assuring idiots that he can save them from an imaginary hell.'

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27. Comment #23043 by RascoHeldall on February 26, 2007 at 2:59 am

Another "Oh no! My complacent certainties are being attacked! Please don't destroy my delusions Mr Dawkins, they stop me from falling apart inside!" type.

Pitiful.

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28. Comment #23045 by Toivo on February 26, 2007 at 3:04 am

When I read what stpetes wrote, my first thought was "Whoa!". It's yet another example of a text containing "religiolese" (a tongue-in-cheek name for an imaginary language or sentences) that over- and misuses terms like "religion, fundamentalism, dogmatism, faith, belief, truth, believer, myth, extremism, etc."

I mean, you can discuss these things without religiolese if you stick to the usual definitions, or otherwise make it clear why, indeed, something is a religion or a faith. But, those who use religiolese (most of them seem to be, in my experience, attacking atheists or science, trying to argue for the existence of God or some paranormal phenomenon), are very quick to call science, rationality and/or even logic a faith or a religion. Also, the scientists become the dogmatic, closed-minded believers; the scientific community or scientists as a whole becomes "the establishment" or "the orthodoxy", atheists who agree with RD or scientists who think that paranormal powers very likely don't exist become "fundamentalist militant believers of a religious dogma" or "mindless ignorant blind faith heads". (Ok, I started to exaggerate towards the end, but you get the idea :-)

It's like accusing atheists or scientists of everything the religious or otherwise believers have been accused of. The difference is that the believers have never produced any good evidence or rational arguments in favour of their claims, while atheists and scientists have, in general.

Why do people or in this case stpetes use religiolese? What are they thinking?! Are they claiming something factual (i.e. has some meaning) by implying that atheism is a faith or that atheists are believers (in the religious sense): "… Because if anyone disagrees with your [I think this refers to atheists] faith then by definition they must be resorting to lies, strawmen and misrepresentation. There have been numerous articles which have ripped TGD to shreds. But the believers [again, I think this refers to atheists] still keep the faith…" Firstly, by definition (which I think most atheists agree with), atheism is the lack of belief in gods, so it cannot be a faith! There is nothing to believe there (in atheism). However, it is possible for an atheist to be mistaken or deluded about the evidence (if there was any) about the existence of a god: let's imagine that in fictional universe scientists find evidence of Zeus. Then a person who remains an atheist after analysing the evidence and thinking about it would be mistaken or deluded.

I'm an atheist. Why? Well, because I haven't seen any good evidence or reason to believe in any god. I also know that it's very unlikely that anyone has ever produced such evidence or reasons. In addition, I've observed people, religions and how and why people believe things. All this has led me to conclude (just like I conclude anything about ordinary every-day matters), that therefore, while possible, gods are very, very unlikely to exist. My atheism is no different than most adults A-Santa Clausim or A-Russell's Teapotism. The same way I can say that you are extremely unlikely to know next week's lottery numbers, or that it's extremely unlikely that your head will explode literally after you read this, there extremely unlikely are gods.

Yet, I predict you (stpetes) will continue thinking about atheism as a faith and atheists as believers (in the religious sense). It would be quite unlikely (again) that you would not only read my post, but also really understand what I am saying and agree with me (thus changing your mind). Perhaps you try invoking extreme scepticism, perhaps you ask "But how can you trust your reason?" or "But how do you know X is likely?" That way you can put me on the defensive, and that's one of the last resorts of "sophisticated" and "intelligent" religious people who want to argue against atheism and/or science. All this, while they sit somewhere using the very same "knowledge derivation mechanism"/"common sense" to type, to read, to use the computer as a part of writing up their argument. "Hypocrisy? Mental gymnastics? Compartmentalization? Never heard of them", they would say. ;-)

BTW. My 1st post, tread lightly.

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29. Comment #23046 by Seti on February 26, 2007 at 3:08 am

 avatarAnother of the ironies - among many - is the threat that if we don't do what they want, they'll get violent:

"They want to close the door and ignore religion, but this will provoke a violent religiosity. If someone seeks to deny my existence, I will fight to assert it." Azzim Tamimi, director of the Institute of Islamic Political Thought

"If you exile religious communities to the margins, then they will start to speak the words of fire among consenting adults, and the threat to public order and the public arena, I think, will grow and grow." Richard Chartres, Bishop of London


And again the proposition by Grey that by arguing against dogmas, atheists are missing the point: "The core of most religions is not doctrinal. In non-western traditions and even some strands of western monotheism, the spiritual life is not a matter of subscribing to a set of propositions. Its heart is in practice, in ritual, observance and (sometimes) mystical experience . . . When they dissect arguments for the existence of God, atheists parody the rationalistic theologies of western Christianity."

But the whole point is that religions insist that their god exists (trotting out these arguements we have repeatedly shot down) and that therefore not only are they entitled to behave according to their dogma, whatever impact it may have on the rest of us, but that we also have to adhere to elements of it, subsidise it with our taxes, let them teach it to our children.

Let them prove that they are right, or let them butt out. They can carry on their practice, ritual, observance and (sometimes?!) mystical experience in peace. Just let them stop pretending to be victims, and then threatening us with violence!

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30. Comment #23047 by Corylus on February 26, 2007 at 3:15 am

 avatar"The God Delusion, sells 180,000 in hardback - a figure that rivals sales of Jordan's memoirs."

I have been hearing things like this (by self styled moderates) for some time and I smell snobbery and jealousy.

a) Snobbery: There is the idea that just because a proportion of the British public purchases an autobiography of a certain pneumatic individual they are complete idiots. It may just be the case that they use reading as a form of escapism, it may be the case that lady in question is actually a lot smarter than people give her credit for… whatever… let's not look down on people who read such things. At least they are READING, and more than one book to boot.

b) Jealousy: All academics have to come to terms with the fact that (no matter how interesting they find their fields), living off royalty cheques isn't going to happen. The high level academics don't give a stuff; they write their books because they cannot conceive of doing anything else. However, the mediocre academics take refuge in sneering "Of course, I don't sell many books: I am a member of the intelligentsia, I'm special".

Dawkins', real sin then lies (for the chattering classes not the fundamentalists!!) not in the content of his book. It lies instead in having the temerity to actually sell some copies, and, furthermore not buying into the myth that the majority of the British public are inherently and irretrievably stupid.

(Apologies if this gets posted twice. I think the first one didn't get through, but not sure!)

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31. Comment #23049 by BaronOchs on February 26, 2007 at 3:24 am

 avatar
"Atheists like the Richard Dawkins of this world..."


That's the Dawkins of this world, as oppossed to the Great Dawkins in the Sky (all hail etc).

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32. Comment #23050 by BMMcArdle on February 26, 2007 at 3:25 am

Can you imagine this conversation?

"That person is extremely rational!"
"What's their fixation with reason?"
"Yeah, they're insane about their logical views."
"They're borderline radically sensible."
"It's their fundamentalist critical thinking that really worries me."

What a joke.

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

33. Comment #23052 by The author on February 26, 2007 at 3:56 am

 avatarDawkins is the bad guy again and there are atheist fundamentalists as well as religious ones. This opinion seems to be most popular in mainstream media. Disturbing...

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34. Comment #23053 by Grandt on February 26, 2007 at 3:58 am

> "You have a triangle with fundamentalist
> secularists in one corner, fundamentalist faith
> people in another, and then the intelligent,
> thinking liberals of Anglicanism, Roman
> Catholicism, baptism, methodism, other faiths -
> and, indeed, thinking atheists - in the other
> corner. " says Slee.

ROFLMAO...

Sorry, but that one kinda stood out, among the rest of this bigoted and self righteous article.
Using "Thinking liberals" to describe various faith groups, and then adding "thinking Atheists" as an afterthought is just too much.

If anything, Atheists are more used to thinking than most religious people.
After all hardly any of us can say that we were raised and schooled in an exclusively secular way in this day and age.

Most of us must have thought about religion and it's role, to come the conclusion that there is no god!
Just as most people at some point think about other faerie tales and come to the conclusions that there are no Santa, it's just a fat guy in a red suit, and that tooth fairies and unicorns are equally incompatible with reality.

If it wasn't because these people have the media time and political attention that they do, I'd be able to laugh at them a lot more freely, and less hysterically.

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35. Comment #23054 by BillySands on February 26, 2007 at 3:59 am

 avatarPhonex,
St Petes is actually that troll David Robertson in disguse. Someone once said he had the intellectual capacity of road kill. Again that appears to be true.
He has actually said elsewhere that he is as certain of the resurrected jesus as he is of the existance of his own wife, and we are expected to believe he is open minded. Stop trying to drag atheism down to your level, or I will come back on your church site and create more doubters!

David, why do you never have anything constructive to say? All you do is set up atheist straw men. Do you have a problem in the trouser department? (as well as the thinking one) Is that why you need attention?

Why dont you remind us all again about how Micah 5:2 and Isaiah 7:14 are about jusus again - oh thats right, you cant, you just looked stupid and your "reasonable" faith was actually shown to be based on lies and was actually most definately an unreasonable one.
You are a godsend to atheists

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36. Comment #23055 by MouthAlmighty on February 26, 2007 at 4:26 am

 avatar@Coment 30 by Toivo.

I believe what you're describing is the method of argumentation known as "Tu quoque" or the "you too" approach. It's basically a defensive tactic that seeks to justify behaviour (or belief) on the basis that the person criticising allegedly partakes of the same behaviour.

I find it particularly irritating. Essentially by calling the atheist "fundamentalist/dogmatic" etc, the theist is attributing his inability to induce belief in the atheist to the atheist's reluctance to accept reasoned argument and evidence. This rhetorical sleight of hand simply presupposes the existence of such without actually introducing it. When you actually demand that the evidence be presented and judged accordingly, that's when the theist begins to flaunt his "doubt" and accuse the atheist of "arrogance" and "unwarranted certainty."

=========
(Aside: "tu quoque" is sometimes described as simply accusing your accuser of any crime, not necessarily the same crime of which he accuses you. I don't think the difference matters that much.)

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37. Comment #23056 by Sean on February 26, 2007 at 4:28 am

I doubt that stpetes will be able to backup this claim about Stalin and his crack suicide squad of atheists.

Even so, the term atheist is given too much meaning. Religious people (and sometimes atheists) seem to believe that atheism is one giant movement, comparable to Christianity, but this simply isn't true.

Atheists are quite diverse since atheism is just one small part of who they are. Even if Stalin were an atheist (albeit one who came from a very religious family and was educated in a seminary) then this means nothing. If he used atheism as a rallying call then that still proves nothing since there is no central atheist doctrine, no single set of rules we follow.

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38. Comment #23057 by Robert Maynard on February 26, 2007 at 4:33 am

 avatar"The core of most religions is not doctrinal. In non-western traditions and even some strands of western monotheism, the spiritual life is not a matter of subscribing to a set of propositions. Its heart is in practice, in ritual, observance and (sometimes) mystical experience.."

Here we go again..
This is exactly what folks like Sam Harris mean when they claim that liberal religion is inadvertently sheltering extremism, by essentially pretending that it is a cartoon-ish aberration of faith, which majoritively doesn't exist.

When children in America are being home-schooled to prevent exposure to Darwinism, this is not a matter of harmless practice, ritual, observance or mystical experience, this is the result of a doctrine.
When muslim clerics declare fatwa's on perceived enemies of Islam, or when thousands of Muslims riot, spitting oaths of murderous violence, this is a very different thing to the harmless ritual of facing Mecca and praying.

If moderates think atheists have got them all wrong, chances are it's because we're not talking about them. If everyone was as harmless as moderates can be, this would be a much milder and less urgent push for change.

Anyway, this was good journalism.

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39. Comment #23058 by MouthAlmighty on February 26, 2007 at 4:35 am

 avatar
Religious people (and sometimes atheists) seem to believe that atheism is one giant movement, comparable to Christianity, but this simply isn't true.


For an extreme example of this see McGrath's "The Twilight of Atheism" - the entire thesis is based on this fallacious construct.

BTW: Just started reading "The Dawkins Delusion" - ad hominem, straw men, thinly veiled insults, unsupported claims - and I'm only 12 pages in.

Other Comments by MouthAlmighty

40. Comment #23059 by BillySands on February 26, 2007 at 4:36 am

 avatarMouthalmighty,
I have always thought of "Tu quoque" as the arguement of a petulant child that has nothing to offer, and is just an "intellectual term for "you smell of poo too".
It is true, that the poverty of the theists position is apparent when he claims that people will not be swayed by his arguement. Itis a presupposition that he is correct, and he expects you to come to his point of view. It never enters his head, that he is wrong. All any reasonable atheist wants in order to change his mind is some concrete evidence - like seeing god, finding a fossil with "god was here" written on it. Anything, other than a morally disgusting self contradictory and innaccurate book that says so.

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41. Comment #23060 by Duff on February 26, 2007 at 4:37 am

After all is said and done, the score is still:

Science - 1,187,334
Religion - 0

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42. Comment #23061 by Grandt on February 26, 2007 at 4:46 am

#43:

Interesting numbers, but I would have thought that the number would be lower, much lower.



I am naturally referring to "Religion's" score. After all, a lie ought to count as a negative :-)

Other Comments by Grandt

43. Comment #23062 by Tom Day on February 26, 2007 at 4:48 am

It is interesting, and telling, to see how leading clerics and theologians seem to be responding to Dawkins and other public atheists by accusing them of the very things they themselves are guilty of (close-mindedness, dogmatism, dishonesty, etc), instead of refuting atheist arguments carefully and making a considered case for their own beliefs. Such below-the-belt tactics are to be expected, I suppose, although it is disappointing to see the press report them unchallenged.

Julia Neuberger's comments are typical and betray a total misundersanding (or deliberate misrepresentation) of atheism.

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44. Comment #23063 by Yorker on February 26, 2007 at 4:55 am

 avatarAlthough I'm a long-time poster on this site I had never come across this "stpetes" character before and was about to address his drivel directly, then I applied my standard rule of reading all before commenting and saw the post by BillySands. This gave me pause and reason to read the stpetes post again; yes, I think you may be right BillySands, this stuff carries the Robertson stench. I was reminded of the phrase "we recognise the lion by his claw", it was used by scholars who had studied some work by Newton that although unsigned, was clearly his. Of course, that phrase would not be applicable here; I think something along the lines of "we recognise the slug by its slime" would be more appropriate.

So, I won't waste time dismantling the shaky stpetes crooked edifice since it would violate my policy of not addressing trolls directly. Even if stpetes is not Robertson, it seems clear he's a deluded religite who would never admit the possibility of being wrong, so again, it would be a waste of time to engage in discourse with him/her/it.

Other Comments by Yorker

45. Comment #23065 by robives on February 26, 2007 at 4:58 am

 avatarOne good thing about the article: I have pre ordered the Christopher Hitchens book from amazon :-)
http://www.amazon.co.uk/God-Not-Great-Against-Religion/dp/184354573X/sr=8-1/qid=1172494676/ref=pd_ka_1/026-6747382-6847632?ie=UTF8&s=books

Other Comments by robives

46. Comment #23066 by stereoroid on February 26, 2007 at 5:02 am

 avatar' "conspicuous religious symbols" could not be worn in public places, such as schools...'

Since when is a school a public place? The students are in the care of the school, and have responsibilities and restrictions they don't have on the street or at home. Still, I think France did go a bit far, and has put unnecessary stress on kids who don't need it. The real issue in my opinion is what they are being taught, at home and at school, not some external symbols.

Prof. Dawkins should have known that nasty comment about that stewardess would be used against him at some point, it doesn't serve to make our position friendly and "normal". 8(

Other Comments by stereoroid

47. Comment #23067 by MouthAlmighty on February 26, 2007 at 5:06 am

 avatar
I have always thought of "Tu quoque" as the arguement of a petulant child that has nothing to offer, and is just an "intellectual term for "you smell of poo too".


Yes - that's one way of looking at it. But I think it's worth giving the person who uses it a little more credit - there is a subtlety to consider; if I were to say, "you smell of poo too" I would acknowledge that I do indeed smell of poo thereby attempting to ameliorate my smelliness by highlighting your own. Whilst this is doubtless at the root of much theistic critique of atheistic/secular views, I think it's fair to say that some theists are attempting to assert that, "All atheists are smelly! And never are they more smelly than when they are accusing us of being smelly!"

Well... I did say it was irritating.

Other Comments by MouthAlmighty

49. Comment #23069 by Deoradh on February 26, 2007 at 5:14 am

 avatarFor those not familiar with Stalin's childhood
http://www.sparknotes.com/biography/stalin/section1.html

Basically he was in Gods hands for his first twenty years

SAINT Ignatius Loyola, Founder of the Jesuits "Give me a boy until he is seven-years-old and I will give you the man."

Other Comments by Deoradh

50. Comment #23071 by DerrickB on February 26, 2007 at 5:42 am

Not particularly relevant to this thread, but not sure where else to post it. This could be a hot topic of debate over the next few days as one of the filmmakers is James Cameron of Titanic fame:

"the makers of a new documentary film claim to have discovered the tomb of Jesus Christ and his family"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070226.TOMB26/TPStory/Entertainment

and did anyone notice Michael Portillo's column in the Sunday Times yesterday. We appear to have an unsuspected eminent supporter.

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