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Monday, March 5, 2007 | Reason : Political | print version Print | Comments

Document Religion and Politics

by David P Barash

The defeat of the Spanish Armada, in 1588, marked the end of Spain as a global power. Before sailing, one Spanish commander "reasoned" as follows: "It is well known that we fight in God's cause. So when we meet the English, God will surely arrange matters so that we can grapple and board them, either by sending some strange freak of weather, or more likely, just be depriving the English of their wits. … But unless God helps us by making a miracle, the English, who have faster guns and handier ships than ours, and many more long-range guns, and who know their advantage as well as we do, will … blow us to pieces with culverins, without our being able to do them any serious hurt. … So, we are sailing against England in the confident hope of a miracle."

So much for a faith-based foreign policy. Indeed, the melancholy fate of the Spanish Armada also suggests why it is time for the American electorate to reconfigure its view of religion and politics – specifically, the presidency – more generally. Now that Mitt Romney has joined the 2008 presidential contenders, the question has arisen: Is America ready to elect a devout Mormon? I certainly hope the answer is No. Indeed, here is a controversial suggestion: it is high time for the electorate to reject a devout Catholic, Protestant, Eastern Orthodox, Evangelical, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Shinto, Wicken, or committed practitioner of any other faith or creed. Our problem isn't too much prejudice against devoutly religious presidential candidates (e.g., Mr. Romney) but not enough. Let's reject any religiously orthodox candidate for high office.

Why? For one thing, its time for politicians to accept responsibility for their actions instead of attributing them to divine advice or counting on supernatural intervention. Haven't we had enough of the kind of faith-based policy initiatives favored by the Bush Administration? After all, George W. Bush claimed that in invading Iraq, he was acting out God's will: now, most politicians are scurrying to distance themselves from this particular crusade. How many more, in the future, must we endure?

For another, perhaps the most dangerous attitude for any political leader is the insistence that he or she doesn't care about this life, being convinced that the real consequences of one's actions are to be encountered in the next. Think of the Islamic jihadis who devalue this world in favor of a forthcoming heavenly recompense. And remember James Watt, whose disastrous tenure as Interior Secretary under Ronald Reagan was notable for his claim that America's natural resources don't really need careful stewardship since "I do not know how many future generations we can count on before the Lord returns." Not to mention those who might welcome a nuclear apocalypse because it would herald the "end times."

Just recently, the following comment - evoked by the Romney candidacy – was heard on talk-radio: "I don't really care what religion he might be, I just want a president who prays." How about, instead, a president who carefully reads briefing papers, and maybe some detailed, complex and even occasionally contradictory and nuanced analyses of alternative courses of action and their likely consequences? Can anyone genuinely claim that it is in the national interest to have presidential decisions made, not via serious policy evaluation but instead, "in the confident hope of a miracle"?

In his book, Shadow of Childhood, anthropologist Weston La Barre proposed that prayer is unique to our species: "No other animal when in distress or danger magically commands or prayerfully begs the environment to change its nature for the organism's specific benefit. Calling upon the 'supernatural' to change the natural is an exclusively human reaction. … [O]ne doubts that even herding animals like the many antelope species in Africa have gods they call upon when they fall behind the fleeing herd and are about to be killed by lions, wild dogs, cheetahs or hyenas."

Give me a reality-based world view any time, certainly not a prayerful one! Admittedly, my preference is unlikely to be realized. The US is the most pro-religious among the world's industrialized nations, with polling data consistently showing, for example, that by wide margins, people would rather vote for a religiously devout microcephalic ax-murderer than for the most admirable atheist. It doesn't seem to matter what the faith, so long as our leaders profess some religion, any religion. But I can still hope (pray?) for my countrymen and women to recognize that religious fundamentalists have already done the republic great harm, and that a candidate's faith – belief without evidence – should be seen as a liability rather than an asset.

David P. Barash is a professor of psychology at the University of Washington

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1. Comment #24259 by Dogbreath on March 5, 2007 at 3:22 pm

 avatar"people would rather vote for a religiously devout microcephalic ax-murderer than for the most admirable atheist"

Sometimes poetry is chilling...but this is depressingly true.

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2. Comment #24263 by anotherclinton on March 5, 2007 at 3:27 pm

 avatarBarash makes a good point, and I hope he's got tenure if he's making it as brashly as he is. But Romney's not an issue. I think Giuliani or McCain will beat him to the Republican nomination. If the GOP primary voters really want a "believer", then they've got a twice (thrice?)-divorced (that's just evidence of a conflict-filled inner spirituality, obviously) Roman Catholic and a WASP who sucks up to Jerry Falwell to pick between before they go for the wannabe polygamist.

Other Comments by anotherclinton

3. Comment #24265 by steve99 on March 5, 2007 at 3:34 pm

 avatarGenerally a good comment, but I think it is simplistic to lump all those 'religions' together, and imply they are all equally flawed. For example, I would to take issue with the inclusion of Buddhism in that list. For many Buddhists it is certainly not a faith, and does not imply supernatural phenomena. Theravadin Buddhism is strictly materialist, and encourages constant critical re-evaluation of what one thinks of the Buddha's teachings. I can't see much in that for any rationalist (or even atheist) to object to. Not being a general expert in religion I can't comment on some of the other supposed 'faiths', but for all I know they may be just as different from the faith- and deity-based religions that the writer so dislikes.

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4. Comment #24271 by cheshirecat on March 5, 2007 at 3:57 pm

I hate the misuse of history through selective quotation.

The English believed in the Protestant wind had helped them to defeat the Spanish. "the wind blew and they were scattered". Their faith based policy had done them very well so they believed - and would continue to believe through centuries of expansion success and imperialism.

Furthermore the Spanish with one of the biggest fleets ever assembled and their army in the low countries were not leaving things entirely to God. Medina-sidonias speech was simply that of an aprehensive and inexperienced commander.

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5. Comment #24273 by Richard Morgan on March 5, 2007 at 4:01 pm

Since we are on Richard Dawkins' web-site, let us not forget that Mormons believe that God evolved from something less complex – a man! That solves one of our problems with the existence of God, doesn't it?

It doesn't?

Well, I just thought I'd mention it….

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6. Comment #24274 by Robert Maynard on March 5, 2007 at 4:01 pm

 avatarsteve99, nobody is going to vote for a guy who is more concerned about meditating to escape a cycle of reincarnation than running the United States, which is what a devout Buddhist, of any school, is mostly concerned with.
Also, anyone who believes that suffering can be ended by 'removing' our desires isn't going to be very effective in the global market at working to keep America economically competitive. :P

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7. Comment #24276 by jonecc on March 5, 2007 at 4:11 pm

With regard to Medina-Sidonia's speech, I had always assumed there was a large pinch of irony in it. He was certainly a highly reluctant commander, who had no expectation of victory, and seems to have wanted to establish the reasons for his failure before it occurred.

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8. Comment #24278 by steve99 on March 5, 2007 at 4:37 pm

 avatarRobert - Firstly, I am a bit disappointed that someone would post such an unenlightened(!) view of the way Buddhists live (they don't spend all day meditating), and there are some highly successful and motivated Buddhists - Michael Stipe, Keanu Reeves, George Lucas, so it is not like you can't be a Buddhist and also competitive.

But anyway you are missing my point, I think. The author of this article was stating that belief without evidence is a liability, a position I fully support. But; many schools of Buddhism also reject belief without evidence, and encourage critical thinking. So, including Buddhism in that list did not reflect well on the author's understanding of 'religions'.

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9. Comment #24282 by kkant on March 5, 2007 at 4:47 pm

Keanu Reeves is Buddhist? A plague on Buddhism! May he suffer many reincarnated lives as a tapeworm for his selection as Constantine!

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10. Comment #24283 by Kimpatsu on March 5, 2007 at 4:52 pm

 avatar"...people would rather vote for a religiously devout microcephalic ax-murderer than for the most admirable atheist."
The problem is that to many faith-heads, there's no such thing as an admirable atheist, because it says right there in the Bibble (sic) that "their deeds are foul, and not one of them does any good", which assertion they take without question. What we really need is a cultural revolution in the schools, by starting with the teaching of critical thinking, so that 20 years down the road there will be enough people who employ reason as a tool reflexively, rather than accepting authoritative statements about other people's worth uncritically. It's not likely to happen any time soon, but I can still dream...

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11. Comment #24284 by Estragon on March 5, 2007 at 4:54 pm

Concerning the bit about the spanish armada there are still people who believe the defeat of the Turkish fleet at Lepanto (ably commemorated in G.K.Chesterton's poem) was the result of a rosary crusade. I can't figure out however if the first crusade captured Jerusalem because God helped them or if Saladin recaptured it because God helped him. Perhaps God's just a real nice guy who'll lend a hand to anyone. . .

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12. Comment #24285 by Homo economicus on March 5, 2007 at 4:55 pm

 avatarYou want a leader who will do the right thing for the country, even if it goes against the faith they hold or even their ethical prnciples. The common good of the people is what counts.

For us outside the US we would want them to do what is right for the world.

Oh to have a philosopher king as a leader. Ours, if Tony's holiday reading is anything to go by, a theological king. Soon be gone. Will have a big party that day.

When you get rid of samsra, past lives, you are kind of left with buddhism as a phliosophy rather than a religion. I think that is how most practice in the West. It should be no more a bar to standing than if you admire the philosophy of Rawls or Nozick.

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13. Comment #24289 by MelM on March 5, 2007 at 5:17 pm

I don't want any president that will suck up to the Dominionists and appoint judges who believe that "rights come from God." The judges are the guards along the wall between religion and the state--if they're fundies, we're screwed. It's important to remember that one doesn't have to be a barking mad wingnut to play politics; beware. And, we need someone who will reverse the Federal stem cell research ban and the "faith based initiative" which were both done with the "executive order" by Bush all by his pathetic self. Like last election, I may end up voting 100% Democrat just to deprive the Republican religious cult any way of getting more power.

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14. Comment #24291 by davyB on March 5, 2007 at 5:29 pm

I'll admit I don't know beans about it, but I don't think Theravadin Buddhists necessarily believe in reincarnation, nor do they have a fundamentalist sort of faith that Sidhartha actually spoke the words that are attributed to him. Sam Harris is some sort of Buddhist. What kind, I don't know.

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15. Comment #24292 by steve99 on March 5, 2007 at 5:41 pm

 avatarEconomicus: That is not just how Buddhism is practised mostly in the West. The more philosophical (rather than religious) approach to Buddhism is an ancient Eastern tradition too. And kkant: Hey! I have to admit I liked Constantine. (And so, surprisingly did some of my Hellblazer-reading friends)

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16. Comment #24295 by davyB on March 5, 2007 at 6:02 pm

I googled about for a bit. Concerning Buddhism, Sam Harris is quoted as saying, "I am a practitioner, but I don't really think of myself as a Buddhist." I don't know what the distinction is.

Other Comments by davyB

17. Comment #24296 by kkant on March 5, 2007 at 6:21 pm

davyB: I did some reading up on Sidhartha, the Buddha, founder of Buddhism. For a long time I thought Buddha was certainly a historical figure--he was tied to history by being a King's son, how can you fake that? On the other hand, I used to think Jesus was historical too (how can you fake the ties to Roman authorities?), and when I discarded that belief I started questioning the historical Buddha as well. The story of Buddha has at least one similarity with the Jesus myth, which is the virgin birth (an elephant came to his mom in a dream and pierced her womb with his tusk). As far as I can see, the first written records of the life of Buddha are dated to about 400 years *after* his supposed life. So that doesn't really speak well for the historicity of Buddha. What makes it worse is that, in the Buddhist scripture itself, an excuse is given for the delay in recording his story. Get this--they say that up until now (400 years after the supposed events), it has been blasphemous or disrespectful to commit his story to paper. What a sorry excuse!! Why did it all of a sudden become "legal" to write his story just then? Apparently no one cared to ask.

But anyway, it also seems that certain sects of Buddhism has broken ties with faith. Statements by the Dalai Lama seem to indicate this, for example.

steve99: Actually I admit not having seen the movie (Constantine). :) But I think if you had to make a casting choice for the character of John Constantine, Keanu Reeves seems like just about the polar opposite of what you would want. His most fitting moment was the dumb clueless pothead "woah" in Matrix 1. For Constantine, maybe Jason Statham would have been a good fit. Clueful, bitter, smirking bastard.

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18. Comment #24301 by steve99 on March 5, 2007 at 6:49 pm

 avatarkkant: I think the big difference between Buddhism and Christianity is that it really doesn't matter if the person of the Buddha actually existed (at least for some schools of Buddhism). It is about the ideas, and whether or not they work to help people live happier lives. Mystical stories of the Buddha (such as idea of virgin birth) are certainly not part of some of the more rational schools of Buddhism. Buddhism has always been a pragmatic and adaptive philosophy, and has 'evolved' to include such stories to help it spread in some cultures.

And, as for the "whoa" moment in Matrix 1 - well, that worked because it brought back fond memories for us Bill and Ted fans.

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19. Comment #24303 by queen5102 on March 5, 2007 at 6:59 pm

I recommend the book Buddhism Without Beliefs: A Contemporary Guide to Awakening by Stephen Batchelor for those who are interested in an explanation of how to be a Buddhist without believing in reincarnation or the supernatural.

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20. Comment #24306 by sankekorafi on March 5, 2007 at 7:31 pm

OOh hot topic, Theravadin Buddhism. I totally misunderstood my atheist boyfriend when he told me he was spending two weeks as a Buddhist monk this summer in Thailand. But it's exactly as said above. Indeed, he does not believe in karma or reincarnation and most Buddhists, of any sort, don't believe that nirvana is something that needs to be sought in this lifetime (ie, it doesn't make sense in terms of my boyfriend's views, but in other more religion like parts of buddhism it is acceptable to be more secular in some lives until you are ready to reach nirvana... a fine idea for someone who is in politics.)

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21. Comment #24310 by DavidJMH on March 5, 2007 at 9:32 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen,
It is clear that most of you know little or nothing about the American system of state education. Government schools are not about educating children so they may make reasonable decisions as adults upon issues which may seriously effect their lives. If fact, education and American government schooling are a contradiction in terms. The system is designed to make unionised teachers look good by making sure children can pass the necessary exams to graduate without knowing anything in depth with as little effort and money as possible.
Over 40% of the American population believe the "Bible" is the literal truth because they have no basis upon which to make any other judgement. In addition, the religious right deliberately whip up fear amongst the electorate that anything other than god fearing politicians will bring anarchy and moral laxity. A large proportion of the American electorate, certainly of sufficient importance during Presidential elections to swing the vote, come from "Middle America" which is both a geographic and political term. "Middle America" is predominantly the farming and industrial Mid-West and the South, the "Bible Belt.
Mormons do not believe that the individual Christians call Jesus Christ is the son of "God". Do the math. I will eat my copy of "The God Delusion" if Romney becomes president. However, the really scary part is the American voters just may put a self serving, power hungry, dictatorial individual like Hillary (Winnie Mandela) Clinton into the White House; she is deceitful enough to fool the god botherers who are neither educated nor bright, that she is really one of them.

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22. Comment #24320 by mmurray on March 6, 2007 at 1:52 am

 avatar16. Comment #24295 by davyB on March 5, 2007 at 6:02 pm
I googled about for a bit. Concerning Buddhism, Sam Harris is quoted as saying, "I am a practitioner, but I don't really think of myself as a Buddhist." I don't know what the distinction is.

Have a look at Sam Harris' article here

http://www.samharris.org/media/killing-the-buddha.pdf

It's on his web site under articles.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

23. Comment #24321 by Pob on March 6, 2007 at 2:11 am

I'm trying to work out how religious these various Presidential candidates really are. Of course they all talk a good game but then they have to if they want to have any chance of winning, and from the other side of the Atlantic it's difficult to tell who is telling the truth.

To me it seems that the main contenders are, in roughly decreasing order of religiosity:

McCain
Clinton
Romney
Obama
Giuliani
Edwards
Gore

Anyone care to improve on that ordering?

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24. Comment #24336 by Biblebeltheretic on March 6, 2007 at 3:48 am

"I'm trying to work out how religious these various Presidential candidates really are. Of course they all talk a good game but then they have to if they want to have any chance of winning, and from the other side of the Atlantic it's difficult to tell who is telling the truth."

It's easy to tell if a politician is lying, his/her lips are moving.

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25. Comment #24341 by Homo economicus on March 6, 2007 at 4:41 am

 avatar15. Comment #24292 by steve99
17. Comment #24296 by kkant

Very true steve99, I was limiting myself to where the pool of candidates for President would come from. No doubt there are also US citizens that really do believe in hungry ghosts as real entities too. Buddhism is foremost a philosophy that very easily can have the trappings of religion. This is most regratable.

kkant: yes sadly there are supernatural interpretations of the Buddha. It was kind of happening in his life time as well so he changed his name to the Tagatha shortly before he died, which means of the same suchness. The point here is that he was a man, no different from any other man. The whole concept of Buddhahood really does get in the way, and that has been recognised.

Most people reject the supernatural stories of the Buddha, especially in the Zen tradition. Thich Nhat Hanh's "Old Path, White Clouds: Walking in the Footsteps of the Buddha" is an account of the Buddha's life and teachings which strips out all the supernatural elements of his life.

They really are not necessary (and are made up) unless you need proof of special powers/portent signs before you will listen to someone.

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26. Comment #24346 by Amnesia on March 6, 2007 at 5:34 am

Nearing death the Buddha allegedly said to those around him :

Be a light unto yourself; betake yourselves to no external refuge. Hold fast to the Truth. Look not for refuge to anyone besides yourselves.

I like that...... inasmuch that Truth comes from reason.

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27. Comment #24359 by bushwakko on March 6, 2007 at 7:04 am

to bad everybody on this site is allready voting this way.

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28. Comment #24370 by Riley on March 6, 2007 at 8:33 am

 avatar
Pob wrote: "I'm trying to work out how religious these various Presidential candidates really are. [...]
To me it seems that the main contenders are, in roughly decreasing order of religiosity: 1) McCain, 2) Clinton, 3) Romney, 4) Obama, 5) Giuliani, 6) Edwards, 7) Gore, Anyone care to improve on that ordering?
1) Romney
2) Obama
3) McCain
4) Clinton
--
5) Giuliani
6) Edwards
7) Gore

--my two cents for what it's worth

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29. Comment #24371 by nvlawyer on March 6, 2007 at 8:33 am

Yet another narrow minded approach to life. If a man believes in a higher power, you assume that he is dumb. That is a real stretch and lacks any support in reason.

First, we cannot prove or disprove divinity. Second, a person's faith in something that does not necessarily make that person dumb or untrustworthy.

Carl Sagan's "Contact" is probably a very strong description of mutual respect between science and faith. We all have faith in something and our personal experiences create differing variations of faith (whether it be in science or religion). A scientist might have faith that there is life on other planets, but he may not believe in God. It still takes faith to motivate him towards doing something more than what has been done in the past.

Romney appears to be a very bright fellow with good credentials. I am also impressed that he has a stable family life. I am even more impressed with the fact that he has adopted sound principles of business in his life and can turn around troubled businesses and governments. There are few politicians who can say they have that kind of abilities -- at least since Steve Forbes ran for office. I don't think this election should be based upon whether a man believes in a higher power, but rather whether he can be trusted (as Bush certainly is not one to be trusted given his track record). Both of my candidates are men of faith (Obama & Romney). I don't think it is a bad thing to believe in God as long as you aren't conducting mass in the White House.

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30. Comment #24390 by rabidchihauhau on March 6, 2007 at 11:15 am

 avatarnvlawyer said "If a man believes in a higher power, you assume that he is dumb. That is a real stretch and lacks any support in reason."

No, I don't - that person may be very smart, but they're misguided and have allowed at least one aspect of unreality to creep into their reasoning process, which means that they are capable of making the same kinds of mistakes in the future and should therefore be watched VERY carefully.

You have also (deliberately?) made a classic faux connection between religious 'faith' and the more common use of the word.

Religious 'faith' is defined as "belief without evidence" (or, more to the point, belief despite idiocy), while the 'faith' you ascribe to Sagan is most definately 'hypothesis and investigation'. Sagan believed that there are mysteries out there AND that we are capable, in the fullness of time, of investigating them and achieving greater understanding.

The ultimate message in 'Contact' was not mutual respect for different 'magisteria', it was that we must give up 'faith' in order to find any answers.

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31. Comment #24391 by Steven Mading on March 6, 2007 at 11:21 am

Carl Sagan's book "Contact" had a vastly different take on religion than the movie did - massively so. The movie tried to show Ellie's experience as being just the same as religion and thus paint her attitude toward religion as hypocritical in the end. The book did no such thing (for one thing, the wormhole vehicle in the book could take several people on the trip, so it wasn't just Ellie going alone, and the collective testimony of all those who went painted the same picture, as opposed to Ellie trying to convince people on her own.

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32. Comment #24392 by kkant on March 6, 2007 at 11:24 am

nvlawyer writes:
[[Yet another narrow minded approach to life. If a man believes in a higher power, you assume that he is dumb.]]

No, of course he is not necessarily dumb. However, if he makes policy decisions based on faith, then that is dumb behavior. That is equivalent to making decisions for no reason at all. For example, "God told me to invade Iraq."

The problem is, if someone is very vocal about his faith, I think it is more likely that he will make public decisions based on his faith.




nvlawyer writes:
[[First, we cannot prove or disprove divinity. Second, a person's faith in something that does not necessarily make that person dumb or untrustworthy.]]

Do you think some faiths "make people dumb or untrustworthy", and others do not? How do you distinguish between them faiths in assigning dumbness? If someone believed in The Invisible Pink Unicorn that created the universe, do you think that "makes that person dumb"?




nvlawyer writes:
[[A scientist might have faith that there is life on other planets, but he may not believe in God. It still takes faith to motivate him towards doing something more than what has been done in the past.]]

Incorrect. The scientist may be motivated by a dream, but that is not faith. Faith means belief without evidence. A scientist doesn't believe that aliens exist, unless he has evidence for them. He can speculate about their existence, but he won't say "they exist, I have faith." Faith implies certainty--there is no evidence, so either you believe or you don't. There's nothing to weigh. However, a scientist can dream about the existence of aliens, and wish to find honest evidence of that existence, and that can be a motivating factor. That is a very different thing from faith.

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33. Comment #24414 by mooslim on March 6, 2007 at 1:50 pm

One nation under God. In God we trust. Go to Europe atheists.

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34. Comment #24415 by Riley on March 6, 2007 at 2:02 pm

 avatar
Carl Sagan's book "Contact" had a vastly different take on religion than the movie did - massively so. The movie tried to show Ellie's experience as being just the same as religion and thus paint her attitude toward religion as hypocritical in the end.
I think Sagan's message in the movie (in which he was also much involved, I understand), was neither to respect religion nor to scold Ellie for hypocrisy; I think he was deploring skeptics to be more sympathetic towards people griped by belief and to recognize that we're all likewise vulnerable. Depending on how you want to interpret the end of the movie, even the uber-skeptic-hero Ellie is vulnerable. Which is why we must all accept humiliating dependence on our collective baloney detection device (e.g. science).

My interpretation of Sagan's parting message through the movie has at least the benefit of being consistant with Sagan's final statements to the skeptic society.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And since this is an article thread on "Religion and Politics", I'd like to once again link to a list of: American Enterprise Institute leaders and members dedicated to the goal of increasing the role of religion in American politics.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(I only do this because I'm astounded to find so few state-siders aware of what I thought everone knew)

Other Comments by Riley

35. Comment #24486 by M31 on March 6, 2007 at 9:38 pm

 avatar30. Comment #24371 by nvlawyer: "A scientist might have faith that there is life on other planets, but he may not believe in God. It still takes faith to motivate him towards doing something more than what has been done in the past."

Others have addressed this statement very nicely, but it's one that I see come up a lot (essentially equating a porported "faith" in extraterrestrial life with faith in God) and it really bothers me. There is a huge difference between suspecting that there exists extraterrestrial life and believing in God. The hypothesis of extraterrestrial life is an inference based on our understanding of the processes that may have given rise to life on this planet, and thus has some evidence making the hypothesis reasonable.

I would argue by analogy. Twenty years ago the only planets we knew of were the ones in our solar system. Yet if you had asked any astronomer whether or not they thought planets exist around other stars they would have said "almost certainly yes". Was this just a complete leap of faith based on their own hope that we are in fact not special? No, it was motivated in part by our theory of how the planets in our own solar system formed. That theory, developed to explain the observations in our own solar system, implied that planet formation should be a natural result of star formation and that many other stars should therefore have planets. So indeed it came as no surprise when astronomers started finding other planets in the 90s. What was surprising was that there was a whole variety of solar systems (ones with very hot gas giants, ones with eccentric orbits) that had not been anticipated and has thus required revisions of our theories - the basic principles though seem to be holding up.

Similarly, the theory of evolution by natural selection suggests that, once you get a self-replicating molecule, natural selection can act to create very complex forms of life. So already the difficulty of producing life is reduced substantially. The question is how easy is it to form the replicators? While I don't think we really know, it apparently didn't take very long for them to appear on the Earth (within a few hundred million years of the Earth becoming habitable) and so it might be something that happens quite easily. It's a reasonable hypothesis, and if true it would suggest that life is very common in the cosmos. Note that the theory of planet formation similarly had some loose ends analogous to the formation of the initial replicators - it had been unclear how to go from small grains of dust to big boulders in a protoplanetary debris disk, and while there has been considerable theoretical progress on this question, we now know empirically that it's a problem that nature has solved.

Over the last half a millenium we have repeatedly learned that we are not very special. So there is some sense in feeling confident about hypotheses based on that principle - but no one would have a religious "faith" in such a hypothesis until it has been empirically confirmed. Moreover, the hypothesis has to have something besides just this principle for people to be confident in it. For example, do I think that somewhere in the galaxy there are other aliens speaking english? No, I doubt it. Why? Because the evolution of a specific language is largely random (in terms of what sounds go to what concepts), and is unlikely to be repeated exactly in a few hundred billion trials (number of stars in the galaxy). Do I think that somewhere in the galaxy there is a creature with something like an eye? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is true since the evolution of the eye on Earth was largely fostered by the presence of copious visible wavelength photons from the sun being transmitted by the atmosphere - a condition that is likely to be repeated on earth-like planets around other sun-like stars.

Other Comments by M31

36. Comment #24589 by Michael on March 7, 2007 at 1:22 pm

nvlawyer made the cardinal error in suggesting that both science and religion share faith. Faith is the preserve of the latter. Science depends upon objective evidence to prove mathematically based hypotheses.

No one knows if there is other life out there in the universe. It is however entirely probable given the evidence of our small solar system.

I hope that, at least some of the US presidential hopefuls espouse religion merely to get the necessary votes. Practical politics! No politician can afford to piss on the voters.

Other Comments by Michael

37. Comment #24646 by 5537P06 on March 7, 2007 at 9:12 pm

mooslim,

Stick around, you might learn something.

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38. Comment #24656 by Matty Two-Tone on March 7, 2007 at 11:08 pm

 avatarI was wondering how long it would take for our little corner of the internet to get Christian spam. Now I know.

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39. Comment #25011 by FXR on March 9, 2007 at 4:50 pm

 avatarI don't believe in reincarnation and I didnt in my last life either.

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40. Comment #150945 by Mechelle on March 27, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Firstly, One huge difference between Buddhism and Christianity is as follows: Christianity relies on the idea of Christ having been real, as well as divine and accepted as one's savior to "reserve" a place in heaven. Take away Christ, and you have nothing but pre-christian theology. Not so in buddhism. It doesn't matter if Buddha actually existed or not. SOMEONE came up with the idea of the eightfold path and the common sense it maps out. Regardless if that someone is named buddha, Ghandi, George Washington or Harry Potter, it makes no difference. Buddhism centers around the eightfold path, and if you take the Buddha figure out of the picture, it still exists. Also, buddhism doesn't seek converts. Conversion is highly frowned upon in most sects because it would defeat the whole purpose and would certainly go against teachings of what the Buddha figure supposedly taught. I say "supposedly" because I'm not certain the Buddha person really existed or not, and like I said, it doesn't really matter if he did or didn't.


Secondly, Buddhism is not your conventional religion. Perhaps more of a philosophy. What people don't realize is that the East didn't have a separate term for "philosophy". Everything was blanketed under the term "religion". What we in the west view as "philosophy", those in the East would more than likely categorize it as religious theosophy. Maybe not so much now, but when Buddhism came to the west, that was certainly the case. I'm a buddhist, myself. An atheist buddhist and I can tell you that there are many sects of buddhism that reject thoughts or ideas that lack evidence. Buddhism speaks of no creator god, nor gods in a general sense other than those that personify emotions or states of mind for the purpose of teaching.

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41. Comment #150949 by Bonzai on March 27, 2008 at 6:20 pm

While I don't believe in reincarnation I think it is a cool idea, much more than going to heaven or hell for eternity based on the deeds in one life time, which is infinitesimal comparing to "eternity". I mean, don't you get bored kissing the big guy's arse for ETERNITY even if you end up in heaven? You sooner or later would get a swollen lip.

It is much more interesting to experience different lives.

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42. Comment #150950 by Mechelle on March 27, 2008 at 6:21 pm

nylawyer

There is a difference between "faith" and "blind faith".

Blind faith is that which a person believes in, even without evidence to support it.

Faith, on the other hand, isn't so aloof. For example, if my son has been getting himself up and ready for school for the past school year, then I have faith he will continue to do so for the rest of the school year. Is my faith based on any lack of evidence? No, it's not. I have faith in my son in that regard, because of repetitive action with an outcome that has had continuity.

That's not the case with a god figure. There is no evidence to support the idea of a creator god, therefore the belief in such relies on blind faith. If we conduct our lives on blind faith, then we can convince ourselves to believe in anything, even that the world was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

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43. Comment #150951 by Bonzai on March 27, 2008 at 6:37 pm

I have been thinking, to what extent self professed believers actually "believe" in the Gods they claim to believe.

It may not be as definitive as we atheists sometimes assume. I think to many it may be just some kind of working assumption, an inconsistent, murkey idea which helps them muddle through hardships from time to time. "Faith" in the sense we use here maybe too strong a word to describe that level of belief. It may be the desirable goal from the religious perspective, but I suspect few actually attain the state of being able to "believe without evidence". By "believe" I mean confidently and surely commiting to it without any doubt whatsoever.

Even fundamentalists have to use rituals, music and other motivational props to work themselves up to a frenzy. That suggests faith is not a natural state even for the most fanatical believers. Indeed fanaticism may be an over-compensation for lack of faith.

If doubt does not exist, they won't be always talking about faith. If no one commits murder, there won't be any law against it, people wouldn't have thought of needing a law.

Conclusion: no one can actually "believe without evidence", even though some may try very hard.

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44. Comment #150962 by robotaholic on March 27, 2008 at 8:07 pm

 avatarSteve Zarra if you admire Buddhism so much why aren't you one? Whatever the reason that you reject Budhism, why don't you decide that that's the reason that David P. Barash included Budhism in his list -

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