Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Tuesday, March 27, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Believers are away with the fairies

by A C Grayling, Telegraph

Reposted from:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/portal/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=A1YourView&xml=/portal/2007/03/26/nosplit/ftreligion126.xml

A CWe'd be better off without religion, argues AC Grayling, who is a keynote speaker in a major debate on the futility of faith in London tomorrow

There is an increasingly noisy and bad-tempered quarrel between religious people and non-religious people in contemporary society.

It has flared up in the past few years, and has quickly taken a bitter turn. Why is this so?

As one of those participating in it - and, confessedly, contributing to its acerbity - my answer might seem partisan. But both sides of the current dispute agree that it raises important questions about the place of religious belief in modern society.

Until very recently, people tended not to fall out with one another if they discovered that they held different views about religion.

There were three main reasons for this.

Most believers did not brandish their faith publicly, society had become increasingly secular in most major respects, and memories of the past's murderous religious factionalisms had bequeathed a reluctance to revive the problem. The latter's lingering consequences in Northern Ireland anyway served as a distasteful warning.

But all the major religions have become more assertive, more vocal, more demanding and therefore more salient in the public domain.

Followers of Islam were the first to push forward: protests against Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses in 1989 were an early indication of what has since become an insistent Islamic presence in the public square.

Not willing to be left behind, other faiths have followed suit. In 2004 Sikhs closed a play in Birmingham, Hindus complained about Christmas stamps Christianising an Indian theme and, in 2005, evangelical Christians protested against Jerry Springer: The Opera.

But it has not all been about protests.

In Britain public funding has gone to Church of England and Roman Catholic schools for a long time; now Muslims, Sikhs and Jews receive public money for their own faith-based schools. BBC radio has steadily increased the airtime available to religions other than the established one.

Requests for extra protections in law, and alternatively for exemptions from the law, to cater for religious sensitivities soon followed these developments: criminalising offensive remarks about religion, and allowing faith-based organisations to be exempt from legislation outlawing discriminatory practices, are the main examples.

The Labour Government has been as concessive and inclusive as it can be to all the religious groups in Britain.

This is well intentioned but misguided, as the example of faith-based schooling shows. If children are ghettoised by religion from an early age, the result, as seen in Northern Ireland, is disastrous.

In the past decade exactly such segregation has been given a publicly funded boost in the rest of the UK, at a time when religion-inspired tensions and divisions in society are increasing. The remedy for the latter should be to ensure that schooling is as mixed and secular as possible; instead, tax money has gone to deepen the problem because the Government thinks that by giving sectarianism its head it will appease it.

Yet history teaches that appeasement never satisfies appetites, it only feeds them.

In the face of the growing volume and assertiveness of different religious bodies asking for preferential treatment, secular opinion has hardened. The non-religious response has come largely from individuals who have a platform or the talent to speak; and they speak for themselves, not for an organisation.

In the US, the religious Right numbers about 35 million. Recent polls show that about 30 million Americans define themselves as having no religious commitment.

But whereas the religious Right is a formidable body whose constituent churches and movements have salaried administrators, vast funds, television and radio outlets, and paid Washington lobbyists, America's non-religious folk are simply unconnected individuals.

It is no surprise that the religious Right has political clout and can make a loud noise in the American public square, whereas the non-religious voice is muted.

There are two main reasons for the hardening of responses by non-religious folk.

One is that any increase in the influence of religious bodies in society threatens the de facto secular arrangement that allows all views and none to coexist. History has shown that in societies where one religious outlook becomes dominant, an uneasy situation ensues for other outlooks; at the extreme, religious control of society can degenerate into Taliban-like rule.

Look at the period in which liberty of conscience was at last secured in Christian Europe - the 16th and 17th centuries. It was an exceptionally bloody epoch: millions died as a result of a single church's reluctance to give up its control over what people can be allowed to think and believe.

The famous Treaty of Westphalia in 1648 accepted religious differences as the only way of preventing religion from being an endless source of war. Religious peace did not come straight away, but eventually it arrived, and most of Europe for most of the years since 1700 has been free of religiously motivated strife.

But this is under threat in the new climate of religious assertiveness.

Faith organisations are currently making common cause to achieve their mutual ends, but, once they have achieved them, what is to stop them remembering that their faiths are mutually exclusive and indeed mutually blaspheming, and that the history of their relationship is one of bloodshed?

The second reason why secular attitudes are hardening relates to the reflective non-religious person's attitude to religion itself.

Religious belief of all kinds shares the same intellectual respectability, evidential base, and rationality as belief in the existence of fairies.

This remark outrages the sensibilities of those who have deep religious convictions and attachments, and they regard it as insulting. But the truth is that everyone takes this attitude about all but one (or a very few) of the gods that have ever been claimed to exist.

No reasonably orthodox Christian believes in Aphrodite or the rest of the Olympian deities, or in Ganesh the Elephant God or the rest of the Hindu pantheon, or in the Japanese emperor, and so endlessly on - and officially (as a matter of Christian orthodoxy) he or she must say that anyone who sincerely believes in such deities is deluded and blasphemously in pursuit of "false gods".

The atheist adds just one more deity to the list of those not believed in; namely, the one remaining on the Christian's or Jew's or Muslim's list.

Religious belief is humankind's earliest science. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are young religions in historical terms, and came into existence after kings and emperors had more magnificently taken the place of tribal chiefs. The new religions therefore modelled their respective deities on kings with absolute powers.

But for tens of thousands of years beforehand people were fundamentally animistic, explaining the natural world by imputing agency to things - spirits or gods in the wind, in the thunder, in the rivers and sea.

As knowledge replaced these naiveties, so deities became more invisible, receding to mountain tops and then to the sky or the earth's depths. One can easily see how it was in the interests of priesthoods, most of which were hereditary, to keep these myths alive.

With such a view of religion - as ancient superstition, as a primitive form of explanation of the world sophisticated into mythology - it is hard for non-religious folk to take it seriously, and equally hard for them to accept the claim of religious folk to a disproportionate say in running society.

This is the more so given that the active constituency of all believers in Britain is about eight per cent of the population. A majority might have vague beliefs and occasionally go to church, but even they do not want their lives dictated to by so small and narrow a self-selected minority.

The disproportion is a staring one. Regular C of E churchgoers make up three per cent of the population, yet have 26 bishops in the House of Lords. Now that religion is bustling on to centre-stage and asking for everyone's taxes to pay for faith schools and exemptions, this anachronism is no longer tolerable.

And all this is happening against the background of atrocities committed by religious fanatics in America, Europe and the Middle East, whose beliefs are not very different from the majority of others in their faith.

The absolute certainty, the unreflective credence given to ancient texts that relate to historically remote conditions, the zealotry and bigotry that flow from their certainty, are profoundly dangerous: at their extreme they result in mass murder, but long before then they issue in censorship, coercion to conform, the control of women, the closing of hearts and minds.

Thus there is a continuum from the suicide bomber driven by religious zeal to the moral crusader who wishes to stop everyone else from seeing or reading what he himself finds offensive. This fact makes people of a secular disposition no longer prepared to be silent and concessive.

Religion has lost respectability as a result of the atrocities committed in its name, because of its clamouring for an undue slice of the pie, and for its efforts to impose its views on others.

Where politeness once restrained non-religious folk from expressing their true feelings about religion, both politeness and restraint have been banished by the confrontational face that faith now turns to the modern world.

This, then, is why there is an acerbic quarrel going on between religion and non-religion today, and it does not look as if it will end soon.

- A C Grayling will be speaking for the motion, We'd be better off without religion, at the Intelligence2 debate on Tuesday 27 March; see www.intelligencesquared.com
- Against All Gods by AC Grayling (Oberon Books) is available for £8.99 plus 99p p&p. To order, call Telegraph Books on 0870 428 4112

Buy 'Against All Gods' by A C Grayling now at Amazon.com
against all gods

Comments 1 - 31 of 31 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #27820 by Hadrian XXI on March 27, 2007 at 12:44 am

Excellent article.

Other Comments by Hadrian XXI

2. Comment #27821 by scottishgeologist on March 27, 2007 at 1:13 am

 avatarVery good article that. There is definitely a "movement" afoot that is gathering momentum. It's going to be interesting to see how it develops. A point will come (if it hasnt already) where a critical mass will be reached and it will no longer be seen as odd or weird to criticise religion

who knows, it might be "k3wl 4 u 2 b an atheist"

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

3. Comment #27823 by neander on March 27, 2007 at 1:24 am

 avatarGreat article. Lets keep the anti-fairy/anti-religion agenda going by all standing up in our respective countries and being counted.

Other Comments by neander

4. Comment #27824 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 1:33 am

Wow, that 'Intelligence2' debate promises to be quite something - what with Grayling, Dawkins, and Hitchens on the panel. I wish I'd known about it sooner - hope we get the podcast at some point...

Excellent article btw. It's certainly interesting that the religion issue has only re-emerged recently.. hopefully the squazillions of issues of 'The God Delusion' that have been flying off shelves will innoculate the general populace against this incipient new faithism..

Other Comments by aleprechaunist

5. Comment #27826 by gcdavis on March 27, 2007 at 1:40 am

 avatarAnother brilliant description of the problem by Grayling.

But what about the solution? Of the 150,000 posts to this forum only 10,000 are related to politics and civil action. We are still just a talking shop.

I have never been an activist and loath the idea of joining anything! I guess this attitude is part of the problem, we atheists are too proud of our individualism to band together.

If we fail to make our collective voice heard we are sleepwalking into a dangerous era, as Grayling says appeasement only emboldens it never satisfies.

Other Comments by gcdavis

6. Comment #27827 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 1:50 am

gcdavis - I take your point, but I'm inclined to think that the best way to campaign for a lack of religious belief is to continue to spread the very powerful counter-religious memes at our disposal, and to do so in our everyday conversation...

Let the memes do the work!

Other Comments by aleprechaunist

7. Comment #27834 by Luthien on March 27, 2007 at 2:28 am

 avatar5. Comment #27826 by gcdavis on March 27, 2007 at 1:40 am
Another brilliant description of the problem by Grayling.

But what about the solution? Of the 150,000 posts to this forum only 10,000 are related to politics and civil action. We are still just a talking shop.

I have never been an activist and loath the idea of joining anything! I guess this attitude is part of the problem, we atheists are too proud of our individualism to band together.

If we fail to make our collective voice heard we are sleepwalking into a dangerous era, as Grayling says appeasement only emboldens it never satisfies.


Do we need to "band together" in the sense that you mean? The vast majority of people out there probably don't realise that religion represents so tiny a minority, and are either unaware of the dangers, or don't know that there is even someone else out there thinking the same thoughts.

I'm not going to join a group. Do you know what I'm doing instead? I'm making noise, talking openly to anyone who will listen about my views. I'm writing letters to newspapers that let religious people go unchallenged (especially local papers), and to my MP. I'm mentioning books that I have read, and lending them to anyone who shows interest. I'm putting some of the nastier bible quotes, or some quotes from people like Bertrand Russell up as my MSN Messenger "quote of the day".

Look at Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and then tell me that one outspoken person can't make a difference! We just need to create the debate.

*** edit ***

Damn it Aleprechaunist, you beat me to it there :-P (looking at your name, I'm now wondering if we are from the same island)

Other Comments by Luthien

8. Comment #27851 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 3:51 am

As is evident from history, it is clear that not organizing into a group cohesive for the purpose of promoting intellectual civil rights only results in individuals being pegged off by religious conglomerates. There is a reason the religious have been in control, and currently number uncontestable majority, and that reason is their impulse to organize, and spread effectively. Atheists have organized before in Communistic regimes, and were actually quite successful for a while, until real Communism was supplanted with the same problematic personality cult style religious monarchies of the past, the VERY ONES COMMUNISTS WERE BENT ON OVERTHROWING! Well, it is clear that what works best in today's society isn't Communism (it doesn't carry a well enough set of checks, and balances). However, even in representative republics, atheists will get nowhere without developing organized political clout, with enough clout to persuade political representatives to respect such a constituency. Civil liberties are given to groups of people who demand them, and if your group isn't big enough to be heard, then like it or not, you'll remain under the domain of law set by those groups who did make a point to remain sovereign. A single individual's crowing means nothing if it doesn't carry with it the backing in numbers from people who support the message, and numbers is the very thing religions excel in that atheist stray cats don't.

If you really want to make a difference, support your local freedom from religion group, write a letter to your local paper informing people what atheism is about, start another relevant successful podcast, organize into secular charity groups, get media representation whenever possible, get out into society where people can note that you are a fellow respectable member. Take a note from the successful propaganda machinations setup by religious organizations. I mean, look at Catholics. As it is they now have planned to setup a whole Vatican propaganda television network set to be distributed in 7 languages.

http://www.cbc.ca/arts/tv/story/2007/03/13/vatican-pope-tv.html

Imagine what kind awesome effect atheists would have on the world if they were to organize enough to setup such great unfettered media exposure.

Other Comments by relevo

9. Comment #27852 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 3:51 am

 avatarOne of the problems with any organisational structure is that it generally raises people's suspicions of hidden agendas, particularly with regard to the stewardship and aims of the organisation, and the chief motivations behind their existence. After all, that's what we find distasteful in religious organisations.

A group of people has another, separate, face, too - one that can't necessarily get across a well-reasoned argument or make pronouncements that seem to be anything other than 'ex cathedra' or 'committee-minded'. We want to look as little like 'just another ism group' as possible, so that we can't be dismissed by simple hand-waving tactics.

Part of the strength of rationalism is our ability to stand alone, with each person's calm watertight argument doing all the work. I think this is often overlooked. Organisations - particularly religious ones - need orthodoxy and dogma and occasionally whips to keep their members' (and their members' thoughts) in line, to present a united front. We don't need any of that: we have a far more powerful too that works from the bottom up: rational thought and argument.

I agree with Luthien's remarks above: make *yourself* heard, and try to steer as clear a course around the seductive whirlpools of dogma and evangelism.

Other Comments by beeline

10. Comment #27853 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:02 am

beeline,

you mistake organization with dogma. It isn't the case that you have to abandon rationalism, and watertight argumentation if you decide on supporting a group. Governments themsevles ARE organizational structures, yet just because you have government, does not mean you don't have fair law which can be setup to positively serve the citizenry that is part of government. Individual secular thinkers have existed prior to many of today's organized religious groups, yet they've never made an effective impact on society for the very fact that they chose not to organize well enough to keep organized religious groups from dictating. If you decide on remaining the same solitary rationalist, like that which has been before, then you'll only be successful in supporting the same prominent religious pattern in society that's succeeded in strengthening over time.

Other Comments by relevo

11. Comment #27855 by pauliej on March 27, 2007 at 4:05 am

I'm all for spreading memes individually, but I am not sure that is enough to counter the organised, mass-membership, well-financed, media-favoured legions of religion. In Britain, a recent MORI poll indicated that about 36% of the population hold Humanist views (and over 60% are "partially Humanist"), but few of them self-identify as Humanists, which leaves organisations such as the BHA with very small memberships and low public profiles. That makes them easy for government and the media to ignore.

I think the cause of secularism would be better served if its campaigning organisations could demonstrate that they are the chosen representatives of a significant part of the population. Even if one takes no active part in the group, simply being a member (and the membership fee) can make a difference. Just imagine if the BHA could lobby in the corridors of power supported by a registered membership which exceeds that of the Church of England. The Humanists are out there, but as individuals most are largely invisible to national decision-makers.

Other Comments by pauliej

12. Comment #27857 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 4:11 am

 avatarQuote: "Individual secular thinkers have existed prior to many of today's organized religious groups, yet they've never made an effective impact on society."

Erm, Hume, Darwin, Dawkins... practically any scientist in the past 400 years...

I don't quite understand the rest of your comments, I'm afraid. 'Solitary rationalists' are very powerful people, especially if they understand the channels through which to amplify their voices, e.g. blogging, writing newspaper and magazine articles and, most noticeably, writing critical, best-selling books.

You don't necessarily need an organisation to be 'organised' or affect society. After all, voting is individual, but its effects are felt on an organisational level.

Other Comments by beeline

13. Comment #27858 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 4:13 am

 avatarHowever, I do agree with pauliej above - media channels can always be more effectively used when there's money around. And money requires organisational structure.

It's the old 'becoming what you are fighting' problem that we need to keep a constant, vigilant eye on...

Other Comments by beeline

14. Comment #27860 by padster1976 on March 27, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatarCan Mr Grayling please be Prime Minister.

Our current Gladstone wannabe is proving to be like a bad penny in his quest for legacy.

Other Comments by padster1976

15. Comment #27865 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:41 am

"Erm, Hume, Darwin, Dawkins... practically any scientist in the past 400 years..."

Even before Christianity you had Epicurus, Democritus, and Leucippus, yet lo, and behold, Christianity is still massively more successful. Still, in the past 400 years, has Christianity stopped its juggernaut of influence? NO.

Many freethinkers from the past have continuously predicted the end of religion, yet time, and again religion shows itself to be the more successful complex, why? Because it organizes itself to survive, and propagate by any means possible. Throwing impitent rational thinkers into the mix doesn't change this. Consider that while a few rational thinkers may publish a book, or manuscript, here, and there, religious organizations are building, and maintaining institutions whose sole purpose is to spread religious propaganda. In the natural selection scheme of things, their proactive method of organized indoctrination is quite evidently extremely effective. Organized religions even have governments pushing their ideas, and everyday they edge in more in this aspect. I think it's quite obvious that unless you decide on doing something more effective in the market place of ideas, no matter how rational they may be, secular thinkers will continue to lose. Religious dictatorial monarchies of the past have only switched into religious oligarchies of the present, but rational thinkers have never really diminished this.

If you're not willing to devise, and partake in an effective organized marketing strategy that outdoes that of religious groups, you'll simply continue to be left out on the curb in the land of demand where governmental/industrial law is pressed on by the religious consumer.

And the reason these organizations have so much money is precisely because they've organized themselves into a financial self-sustaining culture.

Other Comments by relevo

16. Comment #27866 by pauliej on March 27, 2007 at 4:45 am

I don't quite understand the rest of your comments, I'm afraid. 'Solitary rationalists' are very powerful people, especially if they understand the channels through which to amplify their voices, e.g. blogging, writing newspaper and magazine articles and, most noticeably, writing critical, best-selling books.

In past centuries, in order to effect change, solitary rationalists had to influence a relatively small constituency of people, who were educated, engaged in discourse and had power far beyond their numeric strength. Today, if one wants to influence public policy reasonably quickly, one has to influence politicians who are always looking out for their popular vote and keen not to court bad publicity by alienating large communities. Tony Blair isn't going to care whether or not he upsets a few academics and members of the "chattering classes". He is going to care if the vote-wielding atheist/Humanist community is large, organised and vocal at a popular level, in the way that religious communities are.

It may be that the general trend is slowly going against religion, but given the more dangerous and assertive nature of modern religious extremism, can we really afford to wait until the rationalist mindset filters its way into popular society solely by individual efforts?

Other Comments by pauliej

17. Comment #27870 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:57 am

"In past centuries, in order to effect change, solitary rationalists had to influence a relatively small constituency of people, who were educated, engaged in discourse and had power far beyond their numeric strength."

Well, consider that Christianity really blew up the moment they were able to gain the support of the Roman Emperor Constantine I. However, today's world is not ruled by emperors with whom you must gain favor to dictate ideology. Today's world is setup in a fashion where you must setup political representatives to structure your rights in government.

"It may be that the general trend is slowly going against religion, but given the more dangerous and assertive nature of modern religious extremism, can we really afford to wait until the rationalist mindset filters its way into popular society solely by individual efforts?"

Exactly. If you want effective longing change, you must be willing to organize, maintain and grow an influential constituency, to defend yourself against the pernicious will of other religious constituencies who could care less if you were criminalized for having a negatively perceived lifestyle.

Other Comments by relevo

18. Comment #27889 by ajpb on March 27, 2007 at 6:15 am

I have just ordered the book mentioned right at the bottom. If I remember I'll post a mini review of it to the forum... This Grayling chap seems to have a very sensible outlook....

Other Comments by ajpb

19. Comment #27892 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 6:19 am

 avatarQuote: "If you want effective longing change, you must be willing to organize, maintain and grow an influential constituency, to defend yourself against the pernicious will of other religious constituencies who could care less if you were criminalized for having a negatively perceived lifestyle."

That's a pretty good definition of an organised religion, and illustrates my point, I think. To those that don't have the education or patience to understand the different between faith and non-faith, the two fighting houses would look like the same thing, and it would be down to something arbitrary, like 'whether they like the figurehead's character' that determined which camp they joined.

It's obvious that an 'organisation' of rational atheists could do far more damage to religion - I'm not doubting that for a moment, and nor could anyone who understands the power of media - but I am suggesting that it should be avoided simply because any organisation will more and more closely resemble the very structures, complete with internal politics and corruption of people and ideas, to which it is opposed.

I maintain that Darwin was an individual who probably changed more of the population's ideas about religion than any single human being.

It's obviously the case that people like him won't 'stop religion' - I doubt it's possible to stamp it out because it's so well adapted to our brains. But he certainly made significant headways into the religious camp, and therefore shows that it's possible, even just by being an individual. Likewise with Richard's book, which is backed by no 'organisation'.

Change in a system as complex as a society can be far more long-lasting when it's not 'forced', just like in an ecosystem. We have to *give* people the material to make up their own minds, not try to force it down their throats en-masse, Otherwise we risk being rejected by the same reflexes that disgust us in religious evangelical proselytes.

Other Comments by beeline

20. Comment #27902 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 7:11 am

I agree with you, Beeline. I think the grip of religion has to be weakened from within.

As far as changing attitudes goes, I disagree with those who say that the individualistic approach is destined to fail. If atheism failed to take root in the past, it is because its advocates were mainly among the intellectual elite, with priviliged access to the kind of information that tends to put religion to the sword.

(Btw Luthien, It would seem we are indeed from the same island, however unpatriotic the aforementioned tag might seem ;-) )

Other Comments by aleprechaunist

21. Comment #27941 by kkant on March 27, 2007 at 10:53 am

[[A C Grayling will be speaking for the motion, We'd be better off without religion, at the Intelligence2 debate on Tuesday 27 March; see www.intelligencesquared.com]]

Dawkins, Hitchens, and Grayling on a panel debating theists! This promises to be good. Can't wait to see it; I hope someone records it.

Other Comments by kkant

22. Comment #27949 by A on March 27, 2007 at 11:29 am

excellent argument + crazy hair style !

Other Comments by A

23. Comment #27954 by roach on March 27, 2007 at 11:58 am

*Puts on Scott Atran mask*

Grayling says that suicide bombers are "driven by religious zeal". This is so far from the truth. My own empirical studies coupled with my superb mental gymnastics prove that suicide bombers blow themselves up and kill innocents because of love. But let us remember that God is love. So they're doing it for God. Wait I don't know what I'm saying.

Other Comments by roach

24. Comment #27957 by Friend Giskard on March 27, 2007 at 12:20 pm

 avatarGet a haircut Grayling, you hairy yeti.

(But keep on bashing the faithheads. Good work.)

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

25. Comment #27982 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 1:38 pm

It's obvious that an 'organisation' of rational atheists could do far more damage to religion - I'm not doubting that for a moment, and nor could anyone who understands the power of media - but I am suggesting that it should be avoided simply because any organisation will more and more closely resemble the very structures, complete with internal politics and corruption of people and ideas, to which it is opposed.

Your suggestion is noted, however, I think your worries are unfounded. Internal politics, and corruption of people are a base human trait of which everyone must worry. Even if you did eliminate religion, you would still have these. However, this is why even in an organization you consistently account for these by letting members know of such possible corruption. Being part of a constituency does not remove you from being able to note corruption in the constituency whenever you see it. There is no need to resort to religiophobia when it is clear that you can always use your critical thinking skills to sort issues out.

I maintain that Darwin was an individual who probably changed more of the population's ideas about religion than any single human being.

It's obviously the case that people like him won't 'stop religion' - I doubt it's possible to stamp it out because it's so well adapted to our brains.


It is well that you note this, however, religion is no more well adapted to our brains than is any other noncritical thought people can be taught to believe as true. Religion has succeeded, because its franchise methods of organization have enabled it to grow, be it through government, or missionary evangelism. If you don't have someone out informing people of a different idea, people will continue to go with someone else who will. This is precisely what religion does, disseminate religious information. Whether it's actually correct is of no consequence to those who believe it. It is possible to have a naturalist organization analyze demographics, to see where rationalists can be sent to be teach others to question with scientific rigor, and use critical thinking in all areas so they no longer resort to voting whatever their local parish advocates.

But he certainly made significant headways into the religious camp, and therefore shows that it's possible, even just by being an individual. Likewise with Richard's book, which is backed by no 'organisation'.

Really, it seems like all the religious camp has done with Darwin is absorb him as another part of the same ideology, which is why you have theistic evolution, or even just the shorter 10,000 year creationist evolution, where evolution is only acknowledged on a micro-scale. For die-hard religious conservatives, the word Darwin is equivalent to the word 'ignore' precisely because this is what information they receive from their religious organization.

Change in a system as complex as a society can be far more long-lasting when it's not 'forced', just like in an ecosystem. We have to *give* people the material to make up their own minds, not try to force it down their throats en-masse, Otherwise we risk being rejected by the same reflexes that disgust us in religious evangelical proselytes.

Who's forcing who? You make a choice to support a constituency. If you ask religious people whether they choose to believe what they do, its pretty much guaranteed they'll say yes. People make a choice everyday to support a religious institution which makes efforts to erode the civil liberty protections of others not part of the institution. Being part of an organization that strives to keep this from happening does not mean you'll become a dogma enforcing delusional crony. It means you'll help to add a voice that demands respect in the face of these people, where previous you were considered the epitome of everything wrong with the world in their eyes. If you don't develop clout, governments will not hear you, and those in religious organizations who do get heard, because they worked on expanding their clout, will continue to build on their fantasy visions of society in which the infidel is ousted, and the property/resource rewards are free to do with as stated in religious prophecy.

Really, even Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris have their own organizations under which people gather to talk ideas on how to effect consistent change toward the more scientifically honest, which is good. They also support secular groups who strive to bring about rational change. However, a lot more must be done. As it is, Richard Dawkins can't even get his documentary run on American television, or sold on Amazon.com, yet the Vatican is prep ready to establish a global multilingual media broadcast network. It's a no-brainer to see who's going to exact more influence on people. As has been done with other rational thinkers of the past, religious organizations will continue to trump above others so long as the religious continue to effect the more successful campaigns of influence on the planet, and in turn the minority will continue to bend over against their will, and whine over why the world is delusional as it is. And religious think-tanks will continue to define this hermetic infidel minority as crazy, and despicable. As always, religious followers will acknowledge in agreement through government.

Other Comments by relevo

26. Comment #28041 by phil rimmer on March 27, 2007 at 4:52 pm

 avatarFor me the problem is Priests. Grayling touches upon it here..

"..But for tens of thousands of years beforehand people were fundamentally animistic, explaining the natural world by imputing agency to things - spirits or gods in the wind, in the thunder, in the rivers and sea.

As knowledge replaced these naiveties, so deities became more invisible, receding to mountain tops and then to the sky or the earth's depths. One can easily see how it was in the interests of priesthoods, most of which were hereditary, to keep these myths alive…"


I believe that a withering of religious dogma would happen quite naturally as good and convincing explanations of the experience of life were absorbed and improved upon by an increasingly educated population. It would happen because such explanations would become increasingly satisfying and useful to us. It would happen because, we would see for the first time that morality had deep biological roots or that we had evolved for one environment and now live in another etc. etc. and that these (evidence based!) insights would give us the true levers by which we would take better control of our own lives. It would happen, that is, if it were not for the Priests.

My theory about Priests….

The archaeological record shows that, quite suddenly, 32,000 years ago, grandparents came into existence. Before then, very few old people survived. After this time the numbers quadrupled. They died originally because they couldn't feed or fend for themselves. They survived after this time because they became useful to their tribe. How so? It seems likely that language became sophisticated enough for wisdom to be handed on. (The birth of science?) Certainly, what to do when the river dries up, or where to find the best grubs could well buy you your evening meal when you aren't able to catch it yourself. But, what to do when your fund of real knowledge dries up? Surely, you'd run out of useful knowledge within a year or so? So, should you do the decent thing and just curl up and die? Or do you perhaps start stretching the truth, confabulating, invent answers to things you know nothing about? (The birth of religion and Priests?) There's no limit to this. So long as the rest of the tribe keep swallowing your nonsense, they'll feed you….

"The river is still dry. What shall we do?"
"…Er….Make an offering of food to the Rain God!…..Erm…Just here will do."

Priests have been living off us ever since. Tithing. In times of plenty its other things they crave. Acknowledgement, influence, but always security of tenure. (I've met a few harmless Priests but theirs was generally a God of Hand-waving Niceness or they were failures as Priests.)


Rational thought is hard work, whilst Religious Dogma has done your thinking for you, and as a species, we're lazy. Conversion to dogma is easier than conversion to rationality. Priest and meta-Priests (politicians and pundits) win hands down when we beseech people to "Think!" and they respond , "No, think this!".

The good news is that ordinary religious folk don't do much cross-infecting. It takes Priests to keep the fires stoked.

To fix the problem start with the problem of Priests.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

27. Comment #28053 by MIND_REBEL on March 27, 2007 at 5:48 pm

 avatarReligion needs to go. It causes too much harm. If we could just stop one generation from being indoctrinated by thier parents then the chain would be broken, and the nightmare of religion would forever be gone.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

28. Comment #28085 by TranshumanAtheist on March 27, 2007 at 10:35 pm

I deny Tinkerbell, and I am not afraid.

Other Comments by TranshumanAtheist

29. Comment #28090 by MelM on March 27, 2007 at 10:52 pm

Defend reason, bash irrationalism.
An understanding of the nature of reason as well as the nature of irrational modes of thought (specifically, "faith") have to be promoted. For example, in the debate between McGrath and Atkins, Atkins would not let McGrath slip in any claim that atheism is just a faith. You've probably seen statements like "science is a religion" or "evolution is a faith". I think that theists understand that if they can wipe out the concept of reason, then their own pathetic indulgence in irrationalism can go uncriticised. Having watched the debate video, I think McGrath seems like a perfect example.

Wingnuts just don't get it.
An intellectual life based on the concepts of "reason", "reality", and "knowledge" is much different than one based on "fantasy", "faith", and "dogma". In particular, for a rational mind, reality is the ultimate reference and not any book--especially a holy book. To start any inquiry, wingnuts want to absorb the inerrant material in some holy book. I think religious people are lost when it comes to the very foundations of knowledge and reason. They also don't seem to understand that causality is inherent in nature--nothing outside is needed. Everyone uses this fundamental idea every day but religionists haven't integrated it into a general abstraction. Even creationists who would accept "God did it." in science, would never accept such an answer from an auto mechanic tracking down a strange noise.

Reason is under attack from elsewhere.
But, reason is under attack from sources other than religion. I think this general philosophical envirenment is why religion has gotten so powerful--there are few around these days who would disagree with its anti-reason basis. (If reason were alive and valued in the world, religion would be dead.) During a period of my life when I wasn't looking, something happened that I thought was impossible. When I found the book "The Flight From Science and Reason", I was shocked.
http://www.amazon.com/Flight-Science-Reason-Academy-Sciences/dp/0801856760/ref=sr_1_1/104-7079336-6081544?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175058283&sr=1-1
You may recognize the author Paul Gross. He's also co-author of "Creationism's Trojan Horse" with Barbara Forrest.

Write e-mails or letters fighting the Trojan Horses.
In the short term, it's important to be able to identify and dissect Trojan Horses like "ID", "teach the controversy", "teach critical thinking", and "teach Bible Literacy" as well as other bits of ideological "spin" such as wingnut claims about "free exercize of religion"--a fairly regularly seen gimmick in the U.S. Sadly, it looks like people who didn't fall for "ID" are falling for the "Bible Literacy" scam. It'll be interesting to see if all those so interested in protecting biology from religion will be as interested in protecting all other domains of thought.

Other Comments by MelM

30. Comment #28092 by Veronique on March 27, 2007 at 11:49 pm

 avatarDon't forget to put up blackboards and post quotable quotes designed to make people think. I am starting to get people coming up to me in the street and saying it's a good thing.

My blackboard has only been up for 12 weeks so far, some posts get wiped up - just write them again. Persistence is necessary. I have a feeling it will work in some degree. Helps the frustration levels as well!

I couldn't join an organisation either. I can't be herded. Start a critical thinking group; when it's up and running, approach your local school and offer off-campus electives. It's all worth a try.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

31. Comment #28191 by kkant on March 28, 2007 at 9:29 am

So, I visited the intelligence squared website again after the above-mentioned debate (www.intelligencesquared.com). Looks like the atheist panel kicked some ass. Before the debate it was 44/36/20 for/against/unknown, and after the debate it was 58/37/5. Nice. :)

I'd love to see the video!

Other Comments by kkant
Reload Comments | Back to Top

Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password:

This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
Why not share your comment on the article there as well? CLICK HERE