Believers are away with the fairies
We'd be better off without religion, argues AC Grayling, who is a keynote speaker in a major debate on the futility of faith in London tomorrow
2. Comment #27821 by scottishgeologist on March 27, 2007 at 1:13 am
3. Comment #27823 by neander on March 27, 2007 at 1:24 am
4. Comment #27824 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 1:33 am
Wow, that 'Intelligence2' debate promises to be quite something - what with Grayling, Dawkins, and Hitchens on the panel. I wish I'd known about it sooner - hope we get the podcast at some point...5. Comment #27826 by gcdavis on March 27, 2007 at 1:40 am
6. Comment #27827 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 1:50 am
gcdavis - I take your point, but I'm inclined to think that the best way to campaign for a lack of religious belief is to continue to spread the very powerful counter-religious memes at our disposal, and to do so in our everyday conversation...7. Comment #27834 by Luthien on March 27, 2007 at 2:28 am
8. Comment #27851 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 3:51 am
As is evident from history, it is clear that not organizing into a group cohesive for the purpose of promoting intellectual civil rights only results in individuals being pegged off by religious conglomerates. There is a reason the religious have been in control, and currently number uncontestable majority, and that reason is their impulse to organize, and spread effectively. Atheists have organized before in Communistic regimes, and were actually quite successful for a while, until real Communism was supplanted with the same problematic personality cult style religious monarchies of the past, the VERY ONES COMMUNISTS WERE BENT ON OVERTHROWING! Well, it is clear that what works best in today's society isn't Communism (it doesn't carry a well enough set of checks, and balances). However, even in representative republics, atheists will get nowhere without developing organized political clout, with enough clout to persuade political representatives to respect such a constituency. Civil liberties are given to groups of people who demand them, and if your group isn't big enough to be heard, then like it or not, you'll remain under the domain of law set by those groups who did make a point to remain sovereign. A single individual's crowing means nothing if it doesn't carry with it the backing in numbers from people who support the message, and numbers is the very thing religions excel in that atheist stray cats don't.9. Comment #27852 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 3:51 am
10. Comment #27853 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:02 am
beeline,11. Comment #27855 by pauliej on March 27, 2007 at 4:05 am
I'm all for spreading memes individually, but I am not sure that is enough to counter the organised, mass-membership, well-financed, media-favoured legions of religion. In Britain, a recent MORI poll indicated that about 36% of the population hold Humanist views (and over 60% are "partially Humanist"), but few of them self-identify as Humanists, which leaves organisations such as the BHA with very small memberships and low public profiles. That makes them easy for government and the media to ignore.12. Comment #27857 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 4:11 am
13. Comment #27858 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 4:13 am
14. Comment #27860 by padster1976 on March 27, 2007 at 4:22 am
15. Comment #27865 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:41 am
"Erm, Hume, Darwin, Dawkins... practically any scientist in the past 400 years..."16. Comment #27866 by pauliej on March 27, 2007 at 4:45 am
I don't quite understand the rest of your comments, I'm afraid. 'Solitary rationalists' are very powerful people, especially if they understand the channels through which to amplify their voices, e.g. blogging, writing newspaper and magazine articles and, most noticeably, writing critical, best-selling books.17. Comment #27870 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 4:57 am
"In past centuries, in order to effect change, solitary rationalists had to influence a relatively small constituency of people, who were educated, engaged in discourse and had power far beyond their numeric strength."18. Comment #27889 by ajpb on March 27, 2007 at 6:15 am
I have just ordered the book mentioned right at the bottom. If I remember I'll post a mini review of it to the forum... This Grayling chap seems to have a very sensible outlook....19. Comment #27892 by beeline on March 27, 2007 at 6:19 am
20. Comment #27902 by aleprechaunist on March 27, 2007 at 7:11 am
I agree with you, Beeline. I think the grip of religion has to be weakened from within.21. Comment #27941 by kkant on March 27, 2007 at 10:53 am
[[A C Grayling will be speaking for the motion, We'd be better off without religion, at the Intelligence2 debate on Tuesday 27 March; see www.intelligencesquared.com]]22. Comment #27949 by A on March 27, 2007 at 11:29 am
excellent argument + crazy hair style !23. Comment #27954 by roach on March 27, 2007 at 11:58 am
*Puts on Scott Atran mask*24. Comment #27957 by Friend Giskard on March 27, 2007 at 12:20 pm
25. Comment #27982 by relevo on March 27, 2007 at 1:38 pm
It's obvious that an 'organisation' of rational atheists could do far more damage to religion - I'm not doubting that for a moment, and nor could anyone who understands the power of media - but I am suggesting that it should be avoided simply because any organisation will more and more closely resemble the very structures, complete with internal politics and corruption of people and ideas, to which it is opposed.26. Comment #28041 by phil rimmer on March 27, 2007 at 4:52 pm
27. Comment #28053 by MIND_REBEL on March 27, 2007 at 5:48 pm
28. Comment #28085 by TranshumanAtheist on March 27, 2007 at 10:35 pm
I deny Tinkerbell, and I am not afraid.29. Comment #28090 by MelM on March 27, 2007 at 10:52 pm
Defend reason, bash irrationalism.30. Comment #28092 by Veronique on March 27, 2007 at 11:49 pm
31. Comment #28191 by kkant on March 28, 2007 at 9:29 am
So, I visited the intelligence squared website again after the above-mentioned debate (www.intelligencesquared.com). Looks like the atheist panel kicked some ass. Before the debate it was 44/36/20 for/against/unknown, and after the debate it was 58/37/5. Nice. :)This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
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1. Comment #27820 by Hadrian XXI on March 27, 2007 at 12:44 am
Excellent article.Other Comments by Hadrian XXI