1. Comment #30923 by anotherclinton on April 10, 2007 at 10:49 am

Getting your bitchy mom screaming at you on tape and getting every fair-minded person on the internet on your side is pretty sweet trade for Christmas presents.

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2. Comment #30926 by kaiserkriss on April 10, 2007 at 10:57 am

Poor kid.. Not only does he have a mother who swears like a drunken sailor on shore leave, she also tries to black mail him with presents. Now that is a way ALL children should be raised. NOT!

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3. Comment #30927 by EntropyGuardian on April 10, 2007 at 10:59 am

By his voice he sounds a bit young and in the "rebellious teenager atheist" demographic which aren't the best proponents of the anti-faith, but his mother sounds pretty crazy.

I'll call it a tie.

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4. Comment #30928 by Logicel on April 10, 2007 at 11:06 am

I agree with anotherclinton. Poor kid, poor mom. She sounded incredulous as she thinks her child turned atheist overnight. That may seemed that way to her, probably because he kept his atheistic stirrings secret. I wonder when a gay child comes out to his parents, if they say a similar thing: "You can't just turn gay OVERNIGHT!!!"

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5. Comment #30929 by waxwings on April 10, 2007 at 11:07 am

Heh, it really is like 'coming out of the closet.' And to think people wonder what we atheists are bitching about.

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6. Comment #30930 by flobear on April 10, 2007 at 11:08 am

If we can find out who it is, I'll send him a present for Christmas!

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7. Comment #30931 by waxwings on April 10, 2007 at 11:14 am

"By his voice he sounds a bit young and in the "rebellious teenager atheist" demographic which aren't the best proponents of the anti-faith, but his mother sounds pretty crazy.

I'll call it a tie."

No doubt this 'demographic' is analogous to the 'rebellious gay teens'. I completely fail to see how anyone could infer from the twenty odd words the boy said on that audio clip that he's going through some kind of 'phase'.

This idiotic post seems to me a perfect example of the sort of endemic discrimination against atheism that people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are routinely referring to; the tendency to instantly and without any rational justification to jump to the conclusion that there's something 'bad' going on here, that his atheism must be the result of some wildly irrational 'phase' rather than any kind of reasoned analysis, or, alternately, that even daring to identify himself as an atheist must be an act of hostility.

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8. Comment #30932 by ddovala on April 10, 2007 at 11:21 am

Poor kid.

I'd send him a Christmas present if I knew his address!

I'd also like to know where in the bible it says that Jesus was born on Dec. 25, and that putting up douglas fir trees and decorating them with ornaments was part of his b-day party?

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9. Comment #30933 by Mitchie2006 on April 10, 2007 at 11:24 am

I'm 33 years old and I certainly didn't become an atheist overnight. I grew up in a strict but loving Baptist home. My parents still don't know about my not believing in god. It's not for thinking they would scream at me for not believing that I keep it from them, but for the fact that they would be seriously and deeply devastated. They're getting on in years, and as christians they're faith is pretty benign - as most of the christians seem to be in my neck of the woods.

Still though, I sometimes feel that it's not fair that I have to keep it from them. This seems to be a one-sided deal. I can't help it, I simply don't believe in thier god.

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10. Comment #30934 by franciebrady on April 10, 2007 at 11:26 am

I remember when I was a teen and beginning to seriously rebel against my strict Mormon upbringing. While at my summer job one day, I wrote "I do not believe in god" on a piece of paper, rolled it up and put it in my pocket. Kind of like a small, personal version of the "blasphemy challenge". Just something I could feel to reassure myself every time I reached into my pocket (I didn't personaly know any other atheists.) Well, my mom found it when she was doing laundry. As much as I can remember, our exchange when she confronted me with it was similar to this, albeit a bit more abbreviated.

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11. Comment #30935 by georgejoskin on April 10, 2007 at 11:47 am

I have a problem a bit like this i consider my self to be a well informed athiest, my protestant sister in law has decided to get married to a catholic man the father or priest has said her daughter from her first marriage (who she always said she would allow to form her own opions on faith when she was old enough), must become a catholic before the wedding i think this is crazy but she is going along with it even though my niece has said she doesn't want to be catholic, i think this points out the loony minds of these people who believe in santa, god and the easter bunny.
i feel like i talk to a brick wall as they don't seem to see any sense

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12. Comment #30936 by Scissorheart on April 10, 2007 at 11:47 am

I am unable to even describe how sad I think this is.

I'll buy you a Xmas present dude!

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13. Comment #30937 by wilberforce.parry on April 10, 2007 at 11:53 am

I would also buy him a present. This post has shocked me. I really don't know what to think. It just doesn't cease to amaze me how full of conviction people can be about something that is so patently lacking in evidence and utterly improbable.

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14. Comment #30938 by EntropyGuardian on April 10, 2007 at 11:55 am

"No doubt this 'demographic' is analogous to the 'rebellious gay teens'. I completely fail to see how anyone could infer from the twenty odd words the boy said on that audio clip that he's going through some kind of 'phase'."

Because the vast majority of teenage atheists I have encountered have nothing real to say other than there is no god because there is no proof. As they get on and read more they realize that moral code from a book written by mystic Jews in the desert thousands of years ago isn't necessary for civilized life, and that there is a distinction to be made between zealous belief and moderate belief, and all sorts of religious distinctions.

I am an atheist myself, and I feel that the typical teenage atheist really doesn't have the ability to explain the implications of their world view any more than a teenage theist would be to explain the implication of theirs.

Of course nothing he said leads me to believe this other than his perceived age and the fact that I haven't come across someone of his age who could really debate a theist on critical issues.

No matter who it is or what their view, I would hope that they came to this position with a lot of "soul" searching and amassing of evidence. Something that teenagers are not known to be the best at.

"This idiotic post seems to me a perfect example of the sort of endemic discrimination against atheism that people like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris are routinely referring to; the tendency to instantly and without any rational justification to jump to the conclusion that there's something 'bad' going on here, that his atheism must be the result of some wildly irrational 'phase' rather than any kind of reasoned analysis, or, alternately, that even daring to identify himself as an atheist must be an act of hostility."

Had a hard time deciding where to cut this sentence. :)

I want to improve the public's perception on atheism. Religion already are favored due to tradition, public identification (they are theists themselves), and a perceived positive impact of religion on society. The "fringes" are ignored, such as the Phelps and terrorists, and not considered. Atheism already has a negative image, viewed as hedonistic anarchistic nihilists who want to burn all holy books and rude, intolerant bigots.

So any person identifying as an atheist who does any negative action is latched onto as a talking point, while inversely, the negative religious models are ignored.

I think the Blasphemy Challenge was good to get the word out, but a bad way to go about it. Walking around with a shirt that has Jesus having sex with someone (I've seen it) while promoting atheism, is good to get people's attention but the bad way to go about it.

So I guess my issue really isn't with this kid in particular, but with teenage atheists who are quick to offend but typically light on substance. Once you have the knowledge and tools under your belt and you speak your mind you are going to offend some, but you must do it in a careful way if you want the public perception of atheism to change for the better.

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15. Comment #30939 by CJ on April 10, 2007 at 11:57 am

Brave Lad!

What I'd like to know is who shot the vidio

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8Aq00yJSxo

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16. Comment #30941 by Corylus on April 10, 2007 at 12:02 pm

This is comparatively mild. Before we all feel especially singled out for vilification here it is important to remember that Christians are capable of spectacularly throwing their toys out of the pram over paganism too. I post a link to a famous video apparently from American wife swap (not the sort of program I tend to view, so I take YouTube's word for it). This is what happens when a fundamentalist Christian spends time in a pagan house.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCODIhAXbQM&mode=related&search=


P.S. I loved the bit at the very end when it became evident that "God's Warrior" had decided, upon reflection, to cast off her "spiritual armour" and take the money …. Maybe it didn't fit??

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17. Comment #30946 by tomjlawson on April 10, 2007 at 12:13 pm

That is definitely a kid that needs a little Proverbs 22 & 23 and perhaps even a little Matthew 15:4...

For those without a bible, it's about beating him with a rod and perhaps having him killed for the hurt he's putting on his poor mother.

But seriously, child abuse anyone? Can we have her locked up? If not, why not?

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18. Comment #30949 by waxwings on April 10, 2007 at 12:25 pm

"So I guess my issue really isn't with this kid in particular, but with teenage atheists who are quick to offend but typically light on substance. Once you have the knowledge and tools under your belt and you speak your mind you are going to offend some, but you must do it in a careful way if you want the public perception of atheism to change for the better."

You have no idea what, if any substance, relates to this particular teen's view, yet you did not hesitate to conclude that he doesn't have any. One must wonder at this point exactly what the extent of your anecdotal experience is. I've certainly met many bright young people who were perfectly capable of forming more coherent arguments than you just made.

It's interesting to note here that you seem to think that the logical consistency or validity of an atheistic worldview is so inscrutable than no one can achieve it without some sort of vaguely unidentified experience to which you are privvy and this kid isn't. This view, once again, displays exactly the sort of bias you displayed earlier. You assume here is that a clear, clean, logical conclusion is impossible without some unspecified level of maturity when really, all it requires is the kind of open-mindedness and willingness to learn that is far more characteristic of a child than an adult. Hence the disproportionate level of atheism among younger people.

As to what that 'careful' way of changing opinion is, I leave it to you. Clearly you're some kind of public opinion expert who thinks that kow towing to oppression is the key to changing minds, and that a good atheist should duck his head and say 'Yahsuh, massah!' when confronted in order to preserve fragile Christian egos. Sort of an atheist 'Uncle Tom'. Or perhaps you just think you and certain others are 'qualified' to have an opinion.

Some of us, however, do not see any reason to be apologetic or defensive about our beliefs (or lack thereof). Instead of berating this kid from a position of near-total ignorance, you ought to be encouraging him to feel free to express his personal beliefs without fear of reprisal.

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19. Comment #30950 by Sancus on April 10, 2007 at 12:26 pm

Darn, I leave the site for a while because of the anti-youth sentiment and return to find EntropyGuardian spouting offensive stereotypes.

Little on substance indeed. Look in the mirror, jerk.

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20. Comment #30951 by waxwings on April 10, 2007 at 12:27 pm

P.S.: Sorry if the length of that sentence disturbed you. I'll try for a lower reading comprehension level next time ;)

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21. Comment #30952 by simplemind on April 10, 2007 at 12:31 pm

Is this a taste of atheist morbid curiousity?
i fail to see the interest of this.
We know of the tug of war between kids and parents so whats the relevance here? The mother is stressed and unable to communicate the son provoking a response and recording it.
its hardly material thats endorsing for atheists.
Maybe somone can convince me otherwise

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22. Comment #30954 by yeahok on April 10, 2007 at 12:32 pm

So, any Christians wanna question the fact that religion can be child abuse?

I remember a similar situation like this happened to me in 7th grade just because I didn't feel like going to Wednesday night church ONE TIME.

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23. Comment #30956 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Some of us, however, do not see any reason to be apologetic or defensive about our beliefs (or lack thereof). Instead of berating this kid from a position of near-total ignorance, you ought to be encouraging him to feel free to express his personal beliefs without fear of reprisal.

In complete agreement with you on this. The child, this adolescent, was relativley calm in the face of his mothers anger. He tried to articulate why he had come to his conclusions but she interrupted him. Only when she grabbed his chair, leaned in and screamed into his face, did he raise his voice. Just watching the clip I could feel my own adrenaline surge, what must it take for a 15 year to remain rational, coherent and relativley calm in that situation?

I'd say on balance, and conscious that we have little to go on, the kid looks more like an adult than his mother, or his gutless wonder of a father.

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24. Comment #30957 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 12:45 pm

21. Comment #30952 by simplemind on April 10, 2007 at 12:31 pm

i fail to see the interest of this. We know of the tug of war between kids and parents so whats the relevance here?

He's one of us being yelled out by one of them. Thats all the justification required to burn the bitch at the stake in some circles. We are merely engaging in a little justified critcism, so cut us some slack.

The mother is stressed and unable to communicate the son provoking a response and recording it.

You don't have the faintest idea what is going on here. Not enough to excuse the mothers visible actions, or to condemn the sons imaginary ones.

its hardly material thats endorsing for atheists. Maybe somone can convince me otherwise

It works for me and practically everyone commenting at the you tube segment, so yeah, sounds like you're a party of one. No change there then:-)

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25. Comment #30958 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 12:49 pm

16. Comment #30941 by Corylus

"…Maybe it didn't fit??

Nice one Corylus! She certainly was a lard-ball.

I thought the video from your link was a lot more shocking and mentally damaging to kids than the main article. What kind of things go on in the lives of a family like this? Such behaviour makes them seem like aliens to me -- not of the same species.

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26. Comment #30960 by JonH on April 10, 2007 at 1:03 pm

As a teenager, I would just like to add that I am very knowledgable in my position as an atheist, and who are you EntropyGuardian to say that I am not just based on your own biaseness? Stop generalizing, until you've met every teenage atheist and know everything about them.

Sounds a bit holier than thou to me.

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27. Comment #30962 by ghostbuster on April 10, 2007 at 1:04 pm

Kinda reminds me of the Soprano's episode where Tony and Carmilla are upset about Tony Jr.'s denial of God's existence. Yeah...a killer and his wife who benefits from his actions are upset about atheism in their son; this is the typical value system of America. Better to be a good practising Christian Mafia member than an atheist.

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28. Comment #30963 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 1:08 pm

23. Comment #30956 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

"I'd say on balance, and conscious that we have little to go on, the kid looks more like an adult than his mother, or his gutless wonder of a father."

Er...shouldn't that be gutFULL wonder of a father Brian?

Actually I was dying for him to chime in with something like:

"Well now honey you're alone here, ya see I think the same as the boy, this Jesus deal just takes too much believin'"

It would've been nice to see her explode or perhaps collapse in god-befuddled tears.

Other Comments by Yorker

29. Comment #30966 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 1:16 pm

4. Comment #30928 by Logicel

"She sounded incredulous as she thinks her child turned atheist overnight."

Yes, but a thoughtful mother who knew and paid any attention to her son, would realise that his confession was the result of long, cumulative experience. Only an insensitive, uncaring mother would think it could happen overnight, such a mother is a failure in my view.

Other Comments by Yorker

30. Comment #30969 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 1:22 pm

27. Comment #30962 by ghostbuster

That's an interesting point ghostbuster, we constantly hear that atheists are America's most distrusted group whose members could never run for office.

It wouldn't be a huge surprise to me if a majority of Americans WOULD prefer a good catholic mafioso candidate!

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31. Comment #30970 by Glacian on April 10, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Is this definitely the real deal? Something about the video doesn't sit right with me.

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32. Comment #30971 by Yorker on April 10, 2007 at 1:31 pm

31. Comment #30970 by Glacian

Yes, I smelled a setup also, who would video such an event if it were real? Maybe one of his siblings if they had correctly gauged the mother's reaction beforehand and wanted to capture it. That's possible I suppose.

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33. Comment #30973 by AtheistJunkie on April 10, 2007 at 1:32 pm

If this is real, I hope he knows that the video has been watched by thousands of people and all these people are behind him 1000000%.

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34. Comment #30976 by alurex46 on April 10, 2007 at 1:39 pm

Wow. I can't imagine my mom reacting in that way if I told her that. That's rediculous.

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35. Comment #30978 by bradpitcher on April 10, 2007 at 1:48 pm

tomjlawson:

Yes. Yelling at your child is legally considered child abuse. He can prosecute her if he wants. Or he can trump her christmas present blackmail by threatening to prosecute.

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36. Comment #30979 by maton100 on April 10, 2007 at 1:50 pm

Awesome, it was better than Cats. I will watch it again and again.

Sam Harris

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37. Comment #30984 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 10, 2007 at 2:02 pm

It's offical. I'm an internet addicted, attention seeking youtube vlogging whore. Had to respond to that video. I HAD TO.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2IPGbu5zaA

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

38. Comment #30985 by debaser71 on April 10, 2007 at 2:03 pm

Disturbing however the camera is hidden and I know that personally I'd rather not have hidden camera recording me in my worst moments. It's just unfair.

Anyway this is a good example of the attitude some people have towards atheists. So even though the video is IMO unfair, I'm still glad for it.

Other Comments by debaser71

39. Comment #30992 by naeone on April 10, 2007 at 2:21 pm

lets hope its starts a new internet craze

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40. Comment #30996 by Copernic on April 10, 2007 at 2:28 pm

Can you imagine the reaction this kid's folks would have if he received dozens of Xmas presents from anonymous atheists?

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41. Comment #30999 by Sinful Messiah on April 10, 2007 at 2:41 pm

I wish it wasn't cut short. I thought she was gonna smack him!

I like the mother's line of thought here. Once you're confirmed thats settles it. God exists!

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42. Comment #31000 by shmooth on April 10, 2007 at 2:45 pm

moms is beserko. commit her.

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43. Comment #31001 by Grandt on April 10, 2007 at 3:01 pm

I can just hear the mothers next comment, after calming down sometime next year: "Have you tried /not/ being an atheist"

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44. Comment #31004 by Makido on April 10, 2007 at 3:12 pm

All of my siblings, including me, are atheists. Our parents are Catholic, but could care less.

I guess I'm relatively lucky.

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45. Comment #31005 by Grandt on April 10, 2007 at 3:17 pm

16. Comment #30941 by Corylus

If I understood the background correctly (can't remember where it was covered) the swap was between this woman, apparently described as a devout Christian, and an Atheist family, not pagan.

But to nutballs this far gone, there are no difference between the two.

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46. Comment #31006 by Bartman65 on April 10, 2007 at 3:25 pm

well done briancoughlanworldcitizen; hopefully the sender will see this. This sort of rational engagement will help swing him our way!

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47. Comment #31009 by TheHardProblem on April 10, 2007 at 3:28 pm

In response to his mother about how he got himself confirmed.

"Well, a lot can happen, you can think"

Now thats golden :D

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48. Comment #31010 by RickM on April 10, 2007 at 3:35 pm

God; the great invisible blackmailer in the sky.

Mom; the great blackmailer (agent) in the kitchen.

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49. Comment #31011 by krogercomplete on April 10, 2007 at 3:37 pm

Seemed pretty mild as far as parental blow-ups go. I was expecting something much more dramatic after glancing at the posts.

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50. Comment #31014 by Mango on April 10, 2007 at 3:47 pm

At first I thought, "This could be staged." But after I viewed it 2 or 3 more times I realized that the mom was so panicky and frazzled that she said some gibberish about God and Christmas presents that could not have been rehearsed.

Other Comments by Mango