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Tuesday, April 10, 2007 | Science : Psychiatry and Psychology | print version Print | Comments

Document Sex, Love, and SSRIs

by Orli Van Mourik

Reposted from:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/index.php?term=pto-20070403-000003&page=1

Can Prozac keep you from falling—and staying—in love? How SSRIs are wreaking havoc on courtship.

Megan and Neil had always been passionate about each other. Shy and unaccustomed to dating, they met on a group outing in high school where they spent the evening flirting. Megan still remembers the feeling of excitement that washed over her the first time they held hands. From that moment on, they "spent as much time together as two kids without driver's licenses can."

As they entered college, they were determined to stay together. But the move away from home was hard on Megan. Painfully homesick, she spent the beginning of her freshman year feeling uprooted, anxious, and disoriented. As the semester wore on, she fell into a deep depression.

Megan went on antidepressants and almost immediately felt steadier and more able to cope. But her relationship with Neil took a turn for the worse. After a few months on Effexor, her ability to reach orgasm disappeared. Even though she knew that this was likely a side effect of her medication, Megan still couldn't shake the feeling that this was a sign of problems in the relationship. Frustrated, she began to retreat from Neil. Four years of intimacy quickly dissolved, and the couple parted ways.

Megan's experience isn't unusual. Doctors have been grappling with sexual dysfunction since SSRIs (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) were introduced in the 1980s. Approximately 70 percent of people taking SSRIs suffer from sexual side effects. But these drugs may also compromise the ability to feel love.

Rutgers University anthropologist Helen Fisher, for one, believes SSRIs are wreaking havoc on human courtship. SSRIs alleviate depression by upping the levels of serotonin in the brain and curbing the production of the neurotransmitter dopamine. Unfortunately, dopamine is also responsible for the feelings of elation and ecstasy that accompany falling in love. By suppressing dopamine, Fisher argues, drugs like Prozac block your ability to have these feelings, thus making it harder to fall in love and stay in love.

This dopamine deficit affects people in a variety of ways, according to Fisher and her research partner, Virginia-based psychiatrist J. Andrew Thomson, Jr. Singles using antidepressants may have a harder time meeting people, because their natural sexual response is dampened. Some researchers believe desire was designed to help people select mates who are genetically suited to them. The spark that ignites on meeting someone new is telling you something: This might be your match. When you miss those signals, your odds of finding an appropriate mate decrease.

Even if you're one of the lucky ones who manage to find love while taking SSRIs, you still have some obstacles to overcome, says Fisher. Like Megan, you may lose the ability to orgasm, and this could cause long-term relationship issues. Orgasms trigger the release of the hormone oxytocin—one that has been linked with pair bonding. Indeed, those who fail to orgasm, thanks to SSRIs, may be at a distinct disadvantage when it comes to mating and bonding.

According to Fisher, the female orgasm is an important survival mechanism—it evolved to help women choose appropriate mates. The theory: If a man is patient and attentive enough to bring a woman to orgasm he's more likely to be a good partner and father. When women can't climax, they lose one of the most reliable means of filtering out unsuitable partners.

Not everyone agrees. Biologist Elisabeth Lloyd, author of The Case of the Female Orgasm, counters that orgasms aren't a survival mechanism at all; they're simply a happy accident. "The evidence goes against the idea that [women use] orgasms to assess the reliability of mates," says Lloyd. But Fisher thinks it's just a matter of time before the evolutionary purpose of female orgasms is confirmed. "Orgasm is an extremely powerful experience that people go out of their way to achieve. If it was entirely incidental, it would probably be selected out [by evolution]," she says.

While Fisher recognizes that SSRIs have helped millions of people overcome debilitating depression, she believes that the drugs' benefits must be weighed against their risks. Once viewed as the last resort for people in acute emotional distress, Fisher believes that SSRIs are now being widely over-prescribed. "There are all kinds of people who need these drugs for very good reasons and they should take them," Fisher says. "But that doesn't mean they shouldn't be made aware of the risks." Fisher plans to launch a study examining the long-term impact of SSRIs on mating behavior.

So what about the people who must remain on SSRIs? For some patients, regaining desire is simply a matter of switching antidepressants. For others, lowering the drug's dosage may help. Also, drug holidays—physician-directed medication hiatuses—have proven effective. Thomson urges patients to be proactive and ask their doctors to work with them to find the right combination of drugs.

Megan worked closely with her psychiatrist to find a drug regimen that restored her desire and feelings of connection. She has since met and married a new man. However, her problems have not disappeared entirely. Megan still has moments when she mistakes a lack of sexual desire as an issue in her relationship. She's not alone, says Thomson. "Patients need to know that the sexual side effects can be subtle, or they may blame themselves or their relationship."

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1. Comment #31059 by Glacian on April 10, 2007 at 8:30 pm

 avatarI have been a victim of this horrible blight on humanity, Effexor. What good has it done for me? well, shortly after using it I developed permanent sexual dysfunction, and hypogonadism. My pituitary gland stopped working, and I stopped producing testosterone. Even after testosterone replacement therapy (with HCG) and multiple drugs (Cialis, Levitra), I still have virtually no sex drive, sexual function, capacity for orgasm, or response to sexual stimuli.

It's been over 5 years since I stopped taking the medicaion. I was 14 or so at the time, and I am 20 now. The symptoms persist. I have a girlfriend now that I've had for about 8 months and simply find myself incapable of developing the deep affection I feel ought to be there - we have an excellent relationship, but I can feel it viscerally, that somehow, my emotions are blocked, even after all this time. I also developed permanent tinnitus (ringing in the ears) while on the drug. Supposedly, these effects are supposed to go away. Well, in my case, they didn't. I still have many of the side effects years after discontinuining the medication. This drug has ruined my body and my mind and I despise it and everyone associated with it.

Other Comments by Glacian

2. Comment #31067 by Rtambree on April 10, 2007 at 9:15 pm

I wonder if there's any data on SSRIs and their effect on one's religiousity.

Other Comments by Rtambree

3. Comment #31083 by eggplantbren on April 10, 2007 at 11:14 pm

 avatarEffexor is an SNRI, not an SSRI. That means it acts on norepinephrine as well.

While we're comparing anecdotes, I have been successfully treated with Fluvoxamine, an SSRI, for about 12 months. I have had no side effects whatsoever.

Other Comments by eggplantbren

4. Comment #31085 by Karl Christensen on April 10, 2007 at 11:32 pm

I have recently ceased using an SSRI (under supervision) and have yet to see emotional effects. My thought processes are better, but no love or other 'irrational persistence.'

Other Comments by Karl Christensen

5. Comment #31109 by Glaswegian on April 11, 2007 at 3:16 am

The author seems a bit confused, she writes

"Some researchers believe desire was designed"

-without making any comment or asking by whom.

Then the rest of the article is discussed evolutionary in terms.

Other Comments by Glaswegian

6. Comment #31115 by Glacian on April 11, 2007 at 3:42 am

 avatarIt makes me sick knowing they probably could have simply given me something else (or simply nothing), and these problems may not have arisen at all. I was not seriously depressed and looking back on it see no real reason why I was prescribed with the stuff.

Other Comments by Glacian

7. Comment #31144 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 6:24 am

 avatarInteresting. Can someone please explain to me why these drugs are prescribed in the first place?

Other Comments by Yorker

8. Comment #31150 by timothygmd on April 11, 2007 at 7:00 am

Was a clinician before radiology....

Often physicians make errors of action rather than inaction. If you want to help, that usually means doing something. A great frusteration of some branches of medicine is that what you can do is limited and that data is incomplete. What you can prove you know is often only a subset of what you think you know. The chance for error rises.

On the other hand, patients most often present with the expectation that something to be done to "fix" the problem at hand.

A symbiotic dance of delusion follows....

Other Comments by timothygmd

9. Comment #31152 by minstrel on April 11, 2007 at 7:08 am

 avatarYorker asked: Can someone please explain to me why these drugs are prescribed in the first place?

Committing or ideating suidice is worse than not being able to orgasm; the benefit outweighs the risk.

Other Comments by minstrel

10. Comment #31158 by the great teapot on April 11, 2007 at 7:51 am

Can dopamine be suppressed naturally.
I 've fallen deeply in love a few times and I never want to go there again.
(this is a serious question by the way.)

Other Comments by the great teapot

11. Comment #31159 by Nails on April 11, 2007 at 7:51 am

 avatarGlacian - you have my deepest sympathies.
My sister-in-law is on SSRIs, can't remember which one she has changed a couple of times.
In her case, now she is taking her medication regularly she shows more affection to her son and generally looks and behaves much more 'normal', for want of a better word. She has suffered severe anxiety and occasionally paranoid episodes for around 10 years.
Unfortunately I can't comment on her sex life, it's not something we discuss....

Other Comments by Nails

12. Comment #31161 by John P on April 11, 2007 at 8:06 am

 avatarThese drugs, for the most part, have helped millions of people fight and manage depression, which itself can be a debilitating affliction. But like most drugs, they do have their side effects, and have to be managed carefully. The more clinically effective they are, the more likely they will be over-prescribed, as more and more doctors realize how well they alleviate their patients' depression. Prescriptions to minors have come into some disrepute lately, as SSRIs seem to often enhance, not reduce, suicide ideation in teenagers. Lot's of lawsuits ensue.

As for the sexual side effects, they all seem to delay or even destroy the ability to orgasm, though in men with hair trigger problems, a small dose can actually have a beneficial effect, as delayed orgasm for them actually enhances the sexual experience.

Glacian, it's unfortunate that they gave them to you at such a young age. Not to stir things up, but if your health has been permanently impaired, you may have a cause of action against your doctor, or the drug company. Most states preserve the statute of limitation for minors until after they have reached the age of majority, so check with a lawyer.

Other Comments by John P

13. Comment #31162 by Rtambree on April 11, 2007 at 8:08 am

10. Comment #31158 by the great teapot on April 11, 2007 at 7:51 am

>Can dopamine be suppressed naturally

You don't want that. Too little dopamine and you've got Parkinsons. Too much and there's a whole suite of conditions. One of the recent BBC - Horizon episodes, Mad but Glad, was about the effects of too much and too little Dopamine...

Horizon - Mad But Glad
BBC 2 Tue 3 Apr, 9:00 pm - 9:50 pm 50mins

Is there really such a thing as the mad genius? Can an illness be a blessing and a curse?

At seven years old, Nick Van Bloss started shaking his head and couldn't stop.
Grinding his teeth, punching himself in the stomach; wild whooping noises followed.
Nick had Tourettes Syndrome. No medical intervention helped, but one activity
stopped it all: playing the piano. The minute Nick placed his hands on the keys his
symptoms vanished.

Instead, the intense energy fuelled his playing. By the age of 20, Nick was an award
winning international pianist. He felt sure that his illness had made him the success
he was. But had it?

Mad But Glad takes us on Nick's personal journey of discovery to see whether
Tourettes made him the man that he is. His path takes us to a manic writer, a
schizophrenic painter, a composer with Parkinsons disease and finally, to a fellow
Tourettes musician.

His trip leads to scientists who explore and reveal the biological basis for the
connection: the manic writer, herself a Harvard scientist, the eminent neurologist
Oliver Sacks, and the psychologist Jordan Peterson.

They believe genius can be traced to actual chemistry, that this governs not only
the drive to create but dictates the whole way an artist sees the world. To see
whether this applies to Nick, Horizon will look inside Nick's brain. But there's a
catch. The brain state necessary for great art can also be dangerously close to
mental chaos. Nick has walked the tight rope between the two. This journey will
reveal how close he came to the edge and how determined he is to triumph.
With some strong language.

Other Comments by Rtambree

14. Comment #31169 by Logicel on April 11, 2007 at 8:48 am

 avatartimothygmd, very astute comment, thanks.

Other Comments by Logicel

15. Comment #31178 by Caveman on April 11, 2007 at 9:10 am

I have had success using Effexor, but I was originally prescribed Paxil. I won't go into details, but Paxil was a damn nightmare.

While there is some value in SSRI's or SNRI's they shouldn't be prescribed by anyone other than a psychiatrist, yet virtually any physician can prescribe them.

On a lighter note, you may not benefit from using them but your S.O. will be cheered considerably by your considerably delayed orgasm. I know mine was.

Other Comments by Caveman

16. Comment #31180 by jonahemery on April 11, 2007 at 9:12 am

On the possible effects of an SSRI with religious experiences...

I went 14 years with undiagnosed major depressive disorder. When I finally went down the last time, reached out for help, and went on Effexor (stay away from it; it's a horrible drug, now on Paxil), it changed my life.

Before Effexor I was in ministry, a fundamentalist Christian, with all kinds of personal religious convictions to suit my belief. One month of treatment and I was a deist at most, left all organized religion, and understood most of my supernatural religious experiences were a development of abnormal brain chemicals. I also understand the depth of emotional manipulation I endure under the hands of religionists.

There were a lot of mentally ill people in my seminary... that I have no doubt of.

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17. Comment #31199 by Glacian on April 11, 2007 at 10:34 am

 avatarJohn P, I've considered taking legal action but am not sure how to proceed. My friend's dad is a lawyer (personal injury lawyer, in fact) but he's not exactly keen on me so I haven't discussed it with him before.

One of the problems is that I am currently seeing two endocrinologists (I still need the testosterone medication, which pleasantly involves stabbing an intramuscular needle into myself regularly! Yippy for Effexor!) neither of whom believe that these problems could possibly have persisted for this long. I've had three MRI's, and several other tests done. I don't have any brain tumors, and have never suffered any serious head injury, yet somehow, my pituitary gland stopped functioning within 2 or 3 months of going on Effexor, and my sexual dysfunction happened within a week, and my tinnitus sprang up within a month or so of using it as well. Sexual dysfunction, lowered testosterone, and tinnitus have all been directly documented as side effects of effexor that supposedly go away after discontinuation. In my case it appears they didn't, even after several years. So, my two doctors don't believe it's even possible...I think the demonstrable fact that I have these side effects with no apparent cause (other than Effexor) speaks otherwise. 14 year olds don't spontaneously develop hypongonadism, sexual dysfunction, and tinnitus almost simultaneously.

As for how it affected me while I was on it, which I didn't even cover, it was an absolute and total nightmare. I became a zombie, I became suicidal, it suppressed my emotions (mostly positive ones, some negative), made me behave erratically, made me have an unusually fluctuating appetite (entire days of no eating, followed by binge eating), I would sleep 10-14 hours a day, I barely talked to anyone, I ceased all real physical activity, I was in this sort of mind-numb state, I would become irrationally infuriated over simple things like my mother asking me to go get the mail. In a way, I felt somehow lobotomized, like portions of my brain had been crudely removed. Thankfully, those problems disappeared within a few weeks of stopping the medication.

It was prescribed, I'm pretty sure, but a psychiatrist who was a total ass. when I called and said I was having problems with the medication and didn't want to take it, he basically said that that's his decision: I was to take Effexor, or to not bother coming to see him again. He had no interest in actually working on my problems, he just wanted me to pop a pill and get out.

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18. Comment #31207 by Karl Christensen on April 11, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Yorker asked; Can someone please explain to me why these drugs are prescribed in the first place?

In my case SSRIs were prescribed for Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder. Tricyclic anti-depressants are considered dangerous as they are often fatal in overdose. The SSRI family of drugs are not.

From my own experience the SSRI altered the method of thought. No improvement in OCD, (depression is a common side-runner with OCD) and I found that I could not complete cryptic crosswords, and I have been keen on those for many years.

Why are they prescribed? Perhaps it is the easiest option...

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19. Comment #31213 by ksskidude on April 11, 2007 at 2:01 pm

 avatarI suffer from clinical depression. I broke my neck when I was 14 and suffered a spinal cord injury. Today some 22 years later, I am able to walk and have most of my physical abilities back. However, one of the by products of my recovery is chronic pain, nerve pain, etc.....

I take Prozac, and amitrirtyline at night, and hve no sex drive. None. It isn't important to me. But my wife hates it. I don't want to be any more depressed than I already am about the life ahead of me of pain. We are stil trying to find the right mixture of pain meds, and ssri's but it is proving to be difficult.

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20. Comment #31215 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 2:29 pm

 avatar18. Comment #31207 by Karl Christensen

Thanks Karl, I'd never heard of SSRI's so my question was simple and valid, I had no hidden agenda as one comment seems to suggest. It looks as if they're also prescribed for depression and that psychiatrists prescribe them - that means I'll never have to worry about these drugs since I'll never be seeing a psychiatrist, my thoughts on them are the same as those Richard Feynman held - it's basically bad science.

A few years ago at a psychiatric conference in New York, several shrinks were interviewed and all admitted they'd never cured anyone of anything ever. However, I guess I'm a lucky person, like most people I've suffered sadness but have no idea what it means to be depressed.

Other Comments by Yorker

21. Comment #31234 by AndyD on April 11, 2007 at 4:41 pm

"However, I guess I'm a lucky person, like most people I've suffered sadness but have no idea what it means to be depressed."

Can anyone describe what it is meant by 'being depressed?' I feel much like Yorker seems to: I've been sad, I've been bored, I've been confused, I've had anxiety, and I've been afraid, just like I'd imagine everyone else has. I've never ever known what people mean when they mention being clinically depressed, or what this business with using drugs to treat it is.

I apologize for my ignorance, but while I've read about it in a million places I've never gotten an actual description of how it is actually different from normal sad human emotions.

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22. Comment #31239 by Logicel on April 11, 2007 at 5:01 pm

 avatarDepression severely interferes with normal functioning. While sadness may slow it down a bit, but after a reasonable time, sadness will lift. Clinical depression stays there, a millstone of crushing blackness, sapping the individual of motivation, meaning, and purpose, and contributing to suicide. Clinical depression is correlated with an imbalance of neurotransmitters, hence treatment via drugs which aim to regulate the imbalance as much as possible. However, tailoring medicine to an individual is still fairly crude resulting in various problems. A person with clinical depression has no choice but to work with medical specialists(s) to come up with the best drug treatment. Some are more fortunate than others in this often demanding trial and error approach in finding the best drug for the depression sufferer.

It is my experience that nutrition plays an important role in holding some kinds of depression at bay.

Other Comments by Logicel

23. Comment #31252 by TeapotInOrbit on April 11, 2007 at 5:49 pm

 avatarLet me see if I can take a crack at a some of this.

I would like to defend Effexor (venlafaxine) as a highly efficacious drug. It has dual serotonin and norepinephrine (and slight dopamine) effects that likely explain why it is so effective, particularly in treating resistant patients. I hope that folks particularly on this website will consider the large amounts of data. To say that it is "a horrible drug" based on a single personal experience is a bit short-sighted.

Yorker:
I would hope that your comments on psychiatry and depression stem from misinformation. I am curious to know why you feel the field currently is "bad science." I'd be happy to point you towards any number of well run and peer reviewed studies in major journals.

Additionally, primary care physicians actually prescribe the majority of some of these drugs; many people never see a psychiatrist. Also, many antidepressants are used for things other than Major Depressive Disorder. For instance, buproprion (Welbutrin/Zyban) is used for smoking cessation.

As to psychiatrists never "curing" anyone, I think that is a gross misinterpretation. The definition of "cure" is flexible depending upon the disease one is talking about and in most cases I would argue shouldn't even be applied. One may "cure" ie: remove the cause, of a streptococcal infection with an antibiotic.

However, one does not truly "cure" many diseases: diabetes, familial high cholesterol, schizophrenia, etc. Medication, therapy, lifestyle changes, etc. may control symptoms and achieve remission, but the underlying pathology/predisposition will persist.


If folks are interested, I can get into more of the underlying biological correlates of depression and/or other psychiatric conditions.


More replies to follow; I want to address Karl's question about OCD and SSRI's

Other Comments by TeapotInOrbit

24. Comment #31260 by Karl Christensen on April 11, 2007 at 7:22 pm

AndyD; Can anyone describe what it is meant by 'being depressed?'

Lewis Wolpert said "Anyone one who can describe how they felt when they were depressed, wasn't depressed." A simple statement that had me thinking for days. I think he is right.

Yorker; Was Feynman describing psychiatry or anti-depressants as "bad science." I am interested as I think of that man as 'No Ordinary Genius.'

Other Comments by Karl Christensen

25. Comment #31261 by Glacian on April 11, 2007 at 7:36 pm

 avatarTeapotInOrbit, it wasn't "highly efficacious" for me. It's screwed up my life so seriously that there's very little in the way of describing just how bad it is. How highly would you regard a drug that not only didn't help you, but had the opposite effect, and also resulted in apparently making you permanently unable to have sex? That these problems may persist for some people is a pretty serious issue with it. If there was some way around it, some way to reverse this damage, I may agree, but for every few hundred or thousands it helps, there are forums online with nightmare anecdotes of dozens of people who suffered from the drug as well. Perhaps the overrall good it has done for people is greater than the harm its caused (though I cringe to say as much), but I won't accept that claim at face value.

Other Comments by Glacian

26. Comment #31273 by PKid on April 11, 2007 at 8:32 pm

I tried several anti-depressants...Paxil, Nardil and others. Nothing had much of an effect until I tried Effexor. Incredible. It was as if a weight had been lifted from me and I began to enjoy life as I had never before. Powerful anxieties I had felt became insignificant and never a barrier to action. Just to be sure it was the drug, I went off of it (gradually under supervision of a MD) and went downhill, reaching the point of not wanting to get out of bed for the despair. I gave up the idea of "being strong" and not taking a drug. Now, after over two years of 150mg a day I plan to stay on it for good, because it has been so good. As I look back on my life of almost 50 years before finding Effexor, I really wonder what it would have been like had I had it early on. It may not be for everyone but for me it has been like waving a magic wand with no side effects, no loss of sexual desire.

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27. Comment #31278 by TeapotInOrbit on April 11, 2007 at 9:31 pm

 avatarGlacian,
I don't know enough of your medical history, but perusing the literature and reported adverse events, I couldn't find any cases remotely similar to yours. I'll have to do more reading, but it seems more likely that something else caused your condition and the venlafaxine was a confounding factor. Granted, if the venlafaxine did cause your condition, I'm not convinced that there was anyway to predict such an adverse reaction.

I have heard some of the internet horror stories, but I find it interesting that they only seem to turn up on internet message boards and such. I do not intend to belittle your plight, but uncorroborated anecdotes are a poor basis for an argument.

Other Comments by TeapotInOrbit

28. Comment #31280 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 9:44 pm

 avatarI suspected my comments on psychiatry would be challenged, so let's go.

Firstly, Feynman didn't say it was bad science, he said it wasn't science at all! This was in response to a psychiatrist who tried to "vet" him for his Los Alamos job. Feynman told him that both Freud and Jung had tried to build something from data that were totally insufficient to allow meaningful conclusions to be drawn. It's in one of his books, I can't remember which; simple research will uncover it. I said "bad science" because psychiatry tries to give that impression that it's a branch of real science-based medicine - it isn't.

Here are some quotes:

Dr. Norman Sartorius, former president of the World Psychiatric Association said: "The time when psychiatrists considered that they could cure the mentally ill is gone."

"There is no science to psychiatry - just abuse, greed, betrayal, pretended authority, misappropriation, graft."
Citizens Commission on Human Rights (CCHR)

There are many well documented examples all over the web about children dying from the use of psychiatric drugs to treat invented conditions. The problem is that psychiatry is opinion-based, there are no biological tests for any so-called disorders; that's unscientific. The DSM, a kind of psychiatrists bible, gets bigger every day with new invented disorders that someone picks a pill for.

Sadly, psychiatric drug sales exceed $80 billion per year, so I suspect practitioners won't be quitting anytime soon.

Other Comments by Yorker

29. Comment #31282 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 9:54 pm

 avatarHere's another one from "The Meaning of it All", by Richard P. Feynman

"The witch doctor says he knows how to cure. There are spirits inside which are trying to get out. You have to blow them out with an egg, and so on. Put a snakeskin on and take quinine from the bark of a tree. The quinine works. He doesn't know he's got the wrong theory of what happens. If I'm in the tribe and I'm sick, I go to the witch doctor. He knows more about it than anyone else. But I keep trying to tell him he doesn't know what he's doing and that someday when people investigate the thing freely and get free of all his complicated ideas they'll learn much better ways of doing it.

Who are the witch doctors? Psychoanalysts and psychiatrists, of course."

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30. Comment #31284 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 10:03 pm

 avatarAnother Feynman quote:

"Anyone who wants to visit a psychiatrist should have his head examined."

Other Comments by Yorker

31. Comment #31285 by Yorker on April 11, 2007 at 10:17 pm

 avatarI've been trying to find that video of the psychiatric conference but it seems to have gone. I noted some points at the time however and saved them.

They admitted the following:


1. There are no medical tests to determine mental illness of any kind.

2. No psychiatrist can claim to have "cured" a patient.

3. Some psychiatric drugs have proven to be downright dangerous to physical health.

4. The Freudian and Jungian basis for psychiatry is seriously flawed; the case sample sizes used were far too small to be statistically and/or scientifically significant.

Point 4 is basically what Feynman said.

Other Comments by Yorker

32. Comment #31294 by Karl Christensen on April 12, 2007 at 12:07 am

I have asked a number of psychiatrists if there could be an evolutionary reason or purpose for OCD. None have even seemed interested in considering the idea.

On pp186-187 of TGD is reference to Lewis Wolpert's idea of 'irrational persistence'. As soon as I read that, I searched for a video recording of a modern-day flint-napper, lost in his craft, producing a perfect spear-point. I have been considering the idea that my brain, regarded as flawed today, might have been a vital 'tool' thousands of years ago. If I can focus my 'irrational persistence' I might achieve something useful today. If I'm on the wrong track, I'll enjoy the journey while it lasts. If I appear on 'Oprah', I will have lost my mind.

How is it possible to deal with the complexities of the human brain without considering evolution? I don't know. From my own experiences over some twenty-five years of treatment it seems that many psychotropic drugs are not specifically designed as such. Their origins lie in the treatment of other conditions; their side-effects influencing the brain.

To Professor Dawkins I say thank you. Thank you for the link.

Other Comments by Karl Christensen

33. Comment #31310 by Logicel on April 12, 2007 at 1:47 am

 avatarI have found psychiatrists to be useless, and the American kind, prohibitively expensive. Freud and Jung both make me gag. Feynman's description of that loony psychiatrist vetting him for a government job described the prejudiced, blinkered narrow-mindedness, all protected by the psychiatrist's 'expert and professional' stamp, to a T. Another kind of psychiatrist, not so filled with themselves, basically listens to you, and admit if you can find someone else to listen to you, the effects will be very similar, like the neighborhood priest or bartender. And as pointed out, medical doctors also can prescribe psychiatric drugs, so a psychiatrist is not needed for that often wonderful boon to be given to long-time sufferers of clinical depression.

Psychiatrists have done so much harm to minorities, gay people, and women that they should all move in with the Pope, and mutter about in that festering pustule together, mumbling doublespeak until they can no longer talk, therefore rendering them harmless to the population. And yes, I know, just like there are with priests, there are some psychiatrists that are worth their worth in gold, but they are the exception.

The Economist, recently, had an article discussing research regarding that our increasingly sterile environment, just as it has played a role in the increase of asthma in kids, may also be playing a role in the increase of depression. Apparently some organism has a positive effect on our mental/emotional state of well being.

Other Comments by Logicel

34. Comment #31427 by Glacian on April 12, 2007 at 3:57 pm

 avatarArgh, I typed a long response then got an error and had it deleted. Anyway, I'm replying to TeaPotInOrbit:

I agree that anecdotes and a personal account of my own experiences is not sufficient to condemn antidepressants wholesale. My posts here were not intended as an argument against effexor; I would never mount an argument based on personal experience and anecdotes. My relaying of this tale is intended as little more than an anecdote - for whatever that's worth - to others. You can probably understand why I feel such a rancor for this medication, when I attribute my medical conditions to it. Further, I agree that it may be a confounding factor and not the complete cause of some of my conditions. For instance, in the case of my tinnitus, I have a medical history of frequent ear infections, perforated ear drums, and I had tubes put in my ears. Nonetheless, tinnitus is a documented side-effect of effexor, and several of the reports I've read make it clear to me that the medication is likely the source. The way all these problems arose within such a short span, and only during the taking of the medication, is an important consideration.

So, while I do have a personal grudge against the medication, I am not so blinded by that to not recognize that my case is likely very rare and extremely abnormal, and likely can be attributed to some unusual physiological issue that the creators of the medication can't necessarily be held responsible for, in the same way that performing routine surgrry can result in death for some, that doesn't invalidate the use of that surgery. It is likely the case that those who report on all these forums all these horrible side effects of taking medications are attributing every issue they have to it, much like chiropractors attribute every health issue to lack of spinal adjustments. However, among the rabble there are often are real issues that go unaddressed. In my case, both of my endicrinologists completely dismiss - wont' even discuss - the possibility that the cause of my hypongonadism was effexor. The outright dismissal I find to be a little annoying, and if that attitude were prevalent among doctors, then very real problems may go unrecognized. I don't know that this is the case, but it's possible that the sheer rarity of extreme side effects could be cause in itself for doctors doubting their existence and believing them to likely be due to other causes.

Antidepressants can be risky to use, and we need to be very careful in making sure they are properly tested and produced (that should be obvious with all medications though - but in particular ones well known for serious side effects) I was also very young when I was prescribed the medication (about 14), and was likely far too young; I did not have a seroius depression issue. So, another concern that is just as important as what these medications do is that these medications are prescribed properly and to the right patients.

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35. Comment #31601 by palebluedot on April 13, 2007 at 12:44 pm

Here's another anecdote.
I have been suffering from severe depression for some 14 months. I have been on Prozac, Seroxat, Citalopram and, most recently, Venlafaxine. None of these drugs helped lift my depression, but they all gave me horrendous side-effects. I finally gave up looking for a suitable drug and now, 3 weeks after my last pill, I am coming out of my depression.
Withdrawal was hell and is still going on, Tinnitus, electric-shock sensations being the most pervasive symptoms.
I have learnt a lot about antidepressants in recent months and I now know that they are ineffective in many and cause more problems than they solve. And that's not purely based on my own experience, there's plenty of stories out there if you look. www.antidepressantsfacts.com is a good starting point.
I've been treated as a pariah on many depression forums for my anti-med views but there are many on my side. It seems like some people have 'got religion' when it comes to SSRI's, they worship the lord god Serotonin and nothing can persuade them that they're wrong. Which they are.

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36. Comment #32590 by omarali50 on April 17, 2007 at 2:06 pm

It is interesting that in a group of supposed skeptics (skeptical, at the very least, about organized religion) there is such limited skepticism about psychiatry and other modern delusions. Come on people, let not waste all our skepticism on organized religion (an easy target) and ignore such whoppers as modern psychiatry. I have no doubt that lots of people feel depressed and many feel better after taking their favorite SSRI. Maybe they can even change your personality. But to swallow the mainstream psychiatrist's BS about this topic is jolly bad form for supposedly rational atheists....be skeptical when you hear your friendly neighbourhood psychiatrist start up about the "cost-benefit analysis" of SSRIs. Every individual is different and everyone should have the freedom to try whatever chemical works for them, but lets not give a free ride to the psychiatry bovine scat...

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37. Comment #33298 by ninja on April 19, 2007 at 7:58 pm

Well Ninja is on Cipralex. I've been on it for seven months now. I lost the ability to orgasm (or it may have been the ability to enjoy orgasm) for about two months and then shortly after that, they become very enjoyable. Not better or worse, but a totally new experience. In general I feel much more affectionate, tolerant and trusting of people. People became much more interesting.

I had been in a downward journey that included depression, impatience, irritation, anger, rage, & paranoia. While I still have many issues with self-esteem and depression - I feel I am much more at peace with myself. Possibly for the first time in my life.

I started on 10mgs and went up to 15mg after about three months. These are quite low dosages. I also experimented with taking my dose at various times of the day to control a problem with getting tired.

If what is described in this article and comments are the long term affects of SSRIs - then maybe it's time for the party to end for me. I think I am fortunate in that my doctor has worked with me to ensure that I am in control of using the medication instead of it controlling me, so I am encouraged to evaluate and monitor my own progress and for negative affects. I also supplement the medication with talk therapy with a third party.

Perhaps I am an optimistic fool - but it has improved the quality of my life.

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38. Comment #33636 by Joissleepy on April 20, 2007 at 7:50 pm

I have been taking Zoloft for about 2 months and it wasn't a decision taken lightly, but it basically saved my life. I haven't noticed any of the side effects discussed here, but I guess I was lucky that my doctor had a fairly good feel for which option was going to best address the underlying physical causes of my depression. Part of me wishes that I did actually feel less love while on this medication, because that would help me cope better with the emotional triggers. But I can't seriously entertain a wish for that, because pain is one of the things that give life its colour and makes us appreciate the good things more. So I'm just grateful for the strength the medication gives me to start fixing my health and reclaim my life. I do sympathise with the people who have suffered from inappropriate medication though, I know I've been incredibly lucky.

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39. Comment #33639 by Russell Blackford on April 20, 2007 at 8:30 pm

Well, I think that we should also be sceptical about the too-rapid dismissal of science-based psychiatry, much as it's a young science and its methods are inevitably crude.

A friend of mine who knows a fair bit about this has convinced me that we should be a bit more cautious than we currently are about prescribing anti-depressants, and a bit more ready to try cognitive therapy first in less-than-extreme cases. That would likely have been better for Glacian. But that said, I see an awful lot of dismissal of the whole field, and I feel sceptical about that, especially knowing the human tendency to give undue salience to bad outcomes and to tend to overlook good ones.

Popper did put some strong arguments as to why Freudian and Jungian psychoanalysis are not really scientific. Feynman seems to have been influenced by Popper on this, which is fair enough - there are much worse people to be influenced by than Popper. But the Freudian and Jungian psychoanalytic theories are not what we're disputing about here.

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40. Comment #33640 by Joissleepy on April 20, 2007 at 8:38 pm

Yeah I agree. I'm sure there's a lot of work to be done. I found the cognitive behavioural therapy stuff useful, but I was in no state to focus on that before the medication.

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41. Comment #34557 by Aaron SF on April 24, 2007 at 1:32 pm

 avatarI think Cognitive therapy has benefits, but it works from the perspective of a semi-properly functioning brain, so I think a lot of people require it in combination with medication.

Annecdote number 049492302

I started to take Flauxetine for non-depression related reasons about a year ago (anxiety OCD etc...). The effectiveness on those symptoms has been imense and I honestly don't like thinking about how I percieve the world without SSRI's but there have been side-effects.

One of which is short bursts of pretty severe depression for a few hours after taking the medicine. Go figure.

The thing is if your brain isn't balancing chemicals correctly it's not like you can just hit the 'balance now button', for a lot of people it comes down to a lesser of two evils and some hope that science will give us more precise/effective answers in the future.

Or y'know pray to the lord for forgiveness and he shall heal you...

This is a little bit off topic but I've often wondered about the link between OCD's/Anxiety and a religious up-bringing. Some people have asked if maybe OCD is the result of 'filling the religion void'. I kind of wonder if it isn't quite the other way around?

I mean think about the concept of sin. It's a link between a devastating consiquence and an arbitrary action. "If you don't cut your hair your going to hell!!" etc...

Sounds a lot like some of the mental processes of OCD to me.

I was raised religious, I mean learning that train of thought at a young age, it would be surprising if it didn't stick with you.

Anyone know of studies on this?

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42. Comment #38924 by kevolved on May 9, 2007 at 1:54 pm

 avatarI second Comment #33640 by Joissleepy. I found the same to be true.

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43. Comment #53669 by Jammo on July 2, 2007 at 1:11 pm

Severe Depression can be detected nowadays with a fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging). This means that the brain of a depressed person is lacking in the essential building blocks. Drugs like SSRIs and their like is not the correct way to put things straight. These medications treat the symptoms but do less to heal the underlying cause.
Recently it has been found time after time that implementing one's diet with the essential fatty acids like eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) a real improvement in the brain's constitution can be achieved. fMRI shows then normalization of both gray and white matter in the brain and the patient feels better.

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44. Comment #54005 by Tumara Baap on July 4, 2007 at 10:51 pm

Psychiatry has come a long way since Freud. It's a well respected scientific field now. Freud's contribution is merely historical. Almost nothing he postulated is still regarded as true or useful.

SSRI's advantge over placebos are marginal. Behavioural counseling has just about as much or greater benefit than these drugs. By and large, they are very safe drugs, especially compared to Tricyclics and MAOI's. I do fear antidepressants have been over prescribed in the U.S. Even though suicide ideation has been correlated with SSRI use in teenagers, it just may be that in the course of recovery, teenagers are energized enough to act on impulses. As a group they are more risk prone to begin with. SSRI's aren't necessarily causative of suicide.

When SSRI's are suspected of sexual side effects, it's worth considering buproprion (wellbutrin). They are also weight gain neutral. However, they can worsen irritability at initiation.

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