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Friday, April 13, 2007 | Science : Medicine | print version Print | Comments

Document Medical 'Miracles' Not Supported by Evidence

by Benjamin Radford

Reposted from the Skeptical Inquirer:
http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060729_medical_miracles.html

Thanks to Deoradh for sending it in.

The phrase "medical miracle" is a newsroom cliche. It means a situation in which a person makes an unexpected recovery despite great odds or a pessimistic prognosis.

Yet often the phrase is used much more broadly to describe a seemingly supernatural or paranormal healing or curing event such as faith healing. While to many people it may seem obvious that a miracle has occurred, in reality such miracles are rarely as impressive as they seem.

A recent segment on the popular ABC newsmagazine Primetime shows a good example.

A Canadian teenager named Adam Dreamhealer claims to cure cancer, coax the comatose to consciousness, and drive out infection. He has written books, sells DVDs, and offers seminars. Dreamhealer says he can heal people using his hands, mind, and mystical energies. Those who tout his powers include celebrities such as astronaut Edgar Mitchell and musician Ronnie Hawkins.

No good evidence

Many people continue to believe in miracle cures despite no good evidence that they occurred. When modern medicine fails to heal, many desperate people turn to unproven or "alternative" healers. What is the evidence that he can actually heal people?

Many of the miraculous "healings" attributed to Dreamhealer seem to be simply the result of misunderstandings, poor logic, errors in critical thinking, and the common uncertainty of medical knowledge. For example, one woman identified as Debbie believes that Dreamhealer saved her fiance's life. Her fiance Trevor was severely wounded in Afghanistan, and Debbie was told that Trevor probably would not recover from his comatose state. Debbie says she was convinced the doctors were wrong, and when she heard about Dreamhealer's self-proclaimed powers, she asked him to heal Trevor from a distance.

Over the next few weeks, Trevor did indeed begin to gain consciousness, an improvement that Debbie took as proof of Dreamhealer's powers. "The doctors said that he wouldn't recover, so to me, that's a miracle," Debbie said. "It's a miracle that he's still alive." Yet of course medicine is not an exact science; doctors can only go by the patient's condition at the time of the evaluation, which may change at any moment. Patients may get better or worse for any number of reasons. Doctors' prognoses are often at least partially wrong, so the simple fact that that Trevor defied one doctor's expectations and came out of his coma is hardly a miracle.

Although Dreamhealer claims (and Debbie believes) that he healed Trevor, it seems the "healing" has been far less than miraculous. Instead of a full recovery, Trevor remains gravely ill.

Logical error

This case illustrates a common logical error in thinking, one that has Latin name: post hoc ergo propter hoc ("after this, therefore because of it").

Debbie assumed that because Trevor regained consciousness after Dreamhealer said he "healed" him, Dreamhealer caused Trevor to come out of his coma. But it is likely that Trevor would have emerged from the coma with or without Dreamhealer's efforts; people emerge from comas all the time without any psychic or "special healing" efforts. To find out if Dreamhealer's powers helped, we would need a control group: two sets of patients in the same condition, only one whom received Dreamhealer's "healings." This of course would be difficult and expensive to do, but it is the only way to verify powers such as those claimed by psychic healers.

Despite the fact that Dreamhealer has never proven his healing powers under controlled conditions, he claims that what he does can be explained by science.

According to the Primetime segment, "There are physicists who believe there's something to this," including astronaut Edgar Mitchell, who says he recognizes the science in Dreamhealer's work. "It's about channeling energy and resonating with the person. The principles of quantum physics explain many of these intuitive mystical aspects of attention and intention," said Mitchell, who (despite being introduced by Primetime as a physicist and a "doctor") is neither a physicist nor a medical doctor. While Mitchell may recognize the science behind Dreamhealer's powers, the medical establishment doesn't. In fact, many such studies have tried to find this effect, and all of them—including those involving prayer—have failed.

Mistaken impressions

The impression of a miracle can be created by something as simple and common as a misdiagnosis. There have been cases where a doctor mistakenly diagnosed a patient with a disease. The patient then went to a psychic healer who claimed to cure the problem, and later X-rays or surgery confirmed that the person was in fact disease-free.

This can seem like powerful evidence, but instead of considering that the initial diagnosis might have been wrong, the patient assumes that the miracle cure was effective. Or, when giving a patient or family a prognosis, doctors may err on the side of bad news to avoid giving them false hope. It is better, they reason, to have the patient get good news if they were wrong (and recover unexpectedly or "miraculously") than bad news (and not recover when expected to).

In the end, of course, the results speak for themselves. Despite opinions to the contrary, the people that Primetime featured were hardly cured by Dreamhealer; one woman's affliction got worse, another's cancer came back, and the other two are still seriously ill. While some people who go to such healers improve briefly (either because of the placebo effect or because their symptoms go into remission), most end up just as badly off as before (or worse, if they have stopped medical treatments).

Though modern medicine has a spectacular track record of success (from stem-cell research to polio vaccines and cardiac surgery), it is not perfect, and patients should realize that doctors are only human. The fallibility of medicine is not a reason to reject modern medicine. It takes more than a faulty lab test, X-ray, or diagnosis to create a medical miracle. Real miracle cures are the result of careful, hard work by scientists, doctors, and medical researchers.

Benjamin Radford is managing editor of Skeptical Inquirer magazine.

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1. Comment #31675 by Freelance Scientist on April 13, 2007 at 7:53 pm

 avatar"The principles of quantum physics explain many of these intuitive mystical aspects of attention and intention".

Well that settles it for me - I'm a believer.

Meanwhile in the real world little has changed and the results speak for themselves (again).

Other Comments by Freelance Scientist

2. Comment #31678 by Spinoza on April 13, 2007 at 8:10 pm

 avatarI am so tired of CRAZY fucking retards usurping Quantum Physics to suit their cracked out bullshit.

I don't know how many times I've repeated the Feynman mantra "If you think you understand QM, you don't understand QM."

The Internet is breeding these insane people like crazy though... they get these chain-letter emails, and they read the wikipedia versions of complex theories and think they understand it... so they try to apply it to some bullshit they already believe, and they figure because no one they speak to understands the concepts or words they're USING (but not understanding themselves) that that serves as adequate justification for their claims...

Man... I'm just so tired of it... I can't keep reading these things... It's too painful.

Other Comments by Spinoza

3. Comment #31680 by Bonzai on April 13, 2007 at 8:17 pm

For the newagers quantum mechanics fills the same role as "God". Since it sounds mystical and incomprehensible to many people the entreprising can create piles of bullshit and not to mention build multi-million dollar business on it just like TV evangelists do with 'God'.

Other Comments by Bonzai

4. Comment #31683 by kkant on April 13, 2007 at 8:43 pm

Agreed. These people are so shameless. They will steal all the latest science buzzwords and completely demean the ideas they represent. It seems they are always trying to subsume science, trying to claim that their religious paranormal bullshit is above and beyond all this science stuff. A recipe for perpetual delusion.

A Deepak Chopra fan recently told me about something he wrote. Apparently he says that, when meditating, the blank space between thoughts is the Event Horizon. Honestly, if you can say that, then you can say anything is anything.

Other Comments by kkant

5. Comment #31684 by Veronique on April 13, 2007 at 8:49 pm

 avatarI think it is desperation that drives people to consult these self-styled healers, religites or whatever.

I have just watched a Foreign Correspondent segment about the number of Zimbabweans leaving their country riskily through barbed wire fencing to get into South Africa. A lot of them ended up in a Methodist Church. Now I am not saying they shouldn't, because the Church is offering food and shelter. But I think that the Church, as always, offers alms with dogma and desperate (and very poor, in more than just a monetary sense) people will be attracted to whatever holds out hope and comfort or solace.

I recall reading Snake Oil and other Preoccupations by John Diamond. He was offered all manner of alternative treatments for his cancer. He researched them, dismissed them and eventually died. His strength was in his rejection of BS treatments.

Unfortunately many are not as strong as he, and are seduced by unscrupulous 'snale oil' salesmen, who prey on the rest and can become quite fabulously rich doing so.

I think you are right Spinoza, the internet is an aid to these shysters; they can use it with the same facility as anyone else to get a message through. Haha, I totally understand your post. Fortunately, for me, today is beautiful, the sun is shining, the cats are snoozing and the fish are swimming up and down my little creek. Life is good.

Poor Debbie, let's hope she comes out of her own deluded trance.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

6. Comment #31686 by Alric on April 13, 2007 at 9:02 pm

There has never been a miraculously cured amputee. 'nuff said!

Other Comments by Alric

7. Comment #31691 by gav1970 on April 13, 2007 at 9:41 pm

 avatarHe's just another thief. Nothing more. In the past he's refused any sort of empiric testing and has also refused to take part in the JREF million dollar prize. See here http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-10/100613who.html

Liars like this make me sick (or is that a little too ironic).

Other Comments by gav1970

8. Comment #31692 by WilliamP on April 13, 2007 at 9:51 pm

A Canadian teenager named Adam Dreamhealer claims to cure cancer, coax the comatose to consciousness, and drive out infection. He has written books, sells DVDs, and offers seminars.
If he can really heal people with miracles, then why is he spending his time cashing in on books, DVD's and lectures?

Other Comments by WilliamP

9. Comment #31696 by MIND_REBEL on April 13, 2007 at 10:54 pm

 avatarWhat a bunch of meme driven crap. I wish people could could just understand that thier brains have been hijack by mindruses and that attacking science won't solve anything.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

10. Comment #31699 by Karl Christensen on April 13, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Veronique; 'Snake Oil' is a term that has fallen from general usage. Should be used more.

Other Comments by Karl Christensen

11. Comment #31701 by Veronique on April 13, 2007 at 11:27 pm

 avatarHey Karl,

I meant to say a couple of days ago, welcome to your real name, but it must have slipped my memory.

I am getting on to being an old chook and 'snake oil' has been part of my cultural vocabulary for ever. John Diamond was a bit older than I, so it was probably part of his cultural heritage as well.

Your post got me thinking, so I went to wikipedia. Take a squizz at the origins (I didn't know that it was originally Chinese). I have always used it as a disparaging term for wanky medicinals. And I put on 'that tone of voice' whenever I say it!!

For me, it is an absolutely, perfectly descriptive term for BS medicinals. I sometimes, imprudently, find myself in discussion with 'true believers' in homeopathic medicines. That's when 'the voice' comes out. Plus the studies, the debunking and eventually the placebo effect. I should stop talking with these people because I get so irritated by the claims.

I can tell you one thing though. I must be a poor arguer, because those I have discussed it with still retain their 'belief' in the tiny, little pills or liquid with no active ingredient whatsoever.

I just hate good money going to such quackery, thereby giving them some credence.

Damn.
V

Other Comments by Veronique

12. Comment #31702 by greatness on April 13, 2007 at 11:38 pm

Hello everyone, my first post here, love the conversations here and find it very intellectually inspiring.

Now this is very interesting in light of a conversation I had earlier tonight with a friend of mine regarding quantum physics.

Now my friend was pretty enamored with the title of a documentary which he apparently had not watched yet but still found exciting. It was the documentary what the bleep do we know. I had watched the first half of it turning it off because I found it boring and somewhat confusing.

Now this friend of mine (being a recently aquired friend) had never talked in these terms before and the conversation did get a little heated but we split amicably in the end neither having convinced the other and both being thoroughly confused about what we were arguing about sometimes.

What I wanted to get at in a long winded conversation was that he had this idea about quantum physics and electro magnetic energy that you could use that to produce an ESP like result. That is if you could attune the electro magnetic energy of a person to the electro magnetic energy of the earth and ofcourse the electro magnetic energy of another person they could somehow correspond through that in a psychic like manner and likely produce other supernatural things.

I personally told him that I thought it was unlikely and asked how he got the idea for that. Well he started talking about seeing some video of how some people were able to make a frog walk on water by producing an electro magnetic force field of some kind over the water for him to walk on.

I have ofcourse never heard of nor seen such a video and could not claim anything about the veracity of the video but questioned him on his thesis about ESP based on a frog walking on a force field.

Then came sort of the trump up his sleeve, the statement what the bleep do we know which he uttered so many times during our conversation.

But it geared off from there because he did claim many times that he was not religious but he did want to have an open mind for wonderous things in the universe. I seconded him there naturally having listened to and read Dawkins and telling him that those things might be wondrous to us but again the result of a slow incremental process.

Now the kicker in the conversation apart from the one above is that he started postulating that tomorrow you might open a door and walk into another world. At the same time he kept muttering that science was good and all but there was more than science. I tried to get him to be less vague on that but to no avail because what the bleep do we know. I then informed him that all we know is a result of science and that religious or mystical studies had never resulted in a real world application of any kind(that I know off) that can not be explained by science.

This seemed to irk him alot because I also claimed sort of sarcastically that even that idea about opening a door and walking into another world most likely resulted from knowledge gained subconsciously from society. And that those ideas had become a part of the memetic pool of ideas from science fiction writing resulting from the strangeness of Quantum theory.

He could not accept that and argued that the idea was original to him and I told him that I understood that he felt that but that the idea was probably in part formulated from subconscoius knowledge gained from popular culture. He did not want to accept that but in a strange way did so but only if it came from a religious source which he did not want to think of as being religious.

It all became very weird from there and confusing. He did not want to grant that the polyheistic religion of the gods of Valhalla was a religion. The strongest argument in his mind was that Thor and the other gods had at one time been men and that living men could go to Valhalla, that they didn´t have to die.

He also would not accept it as a religion because his idea of a religion was people in a church praying to god. The vikings did not do that and so it was not a religion. I simply stated that they were probably too busy raping and pillaging to go to church.

It was all very weird and he was also offended by my assertion that his idea about walking through a door to a different world was not original to him. We argued about that for a long time.

The worst part about it was that he wanted the whole time to have the conversation as open as possible with pseudo scientific claims based on mystical ideas and I could never sort of ground the conversation down to a rational level.

I´m sorry if this was a boring read to all but I wanted to share it and possibly hear what you think about the ESP idea that he has and if anyone here has see the video of the frog walking on a force field?

Rock on.
Daníel.

Other Comments by greatness

13. Comment #31703 by Veronique on April 13, 2007 at 11:48 pm

 avatargreatness,

Welcome to the pages of comments you have now joined.

I don't know what to make of ESP and I don't really know a comprehensively and universally accepted definition. I suspect it has something to do with second guessing, subtle manipulation and clever footwork. The neuroscientists will, one day maybe, have some illuminating thoughts with experimentation and testable results to tell the rest of us. Until then I put it in the same realm as snake oil salesmen. Clever tricksters, making a motza.

Having said that, I know there are lots of unexplained phenomena. I try not to fill the gaps until the jury is in. And I may well be dead before that occurrence, but I cannot be seduced into filling the gaps.

Since I am of the opinion that trying to talk sense and reason to nonsensical and unreasonable people is really a waste of time and energy (I know, I know, I am not being responsible enough), I think you could use a sentence with your newly acquired friend:

By all means, keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Just a suggestion.....
V

Other Comments by Veronique

14. Comment #31705 by greatness on April 14, 2007 at 12:02 am

Thank you Veronique:)

I had forgotten about that quote and I will be sure to mention it to him the next time we have a conversation of this nature:)

Rock on.
Daníel.

Other Comments by greatness

15. Comment #31707 by Veronique on April 14, 2007 at 12:10 am

 avatargreatness,

Or rather, Daniel, where the hell are you? That was a quick response!!

I am glad you like this virtual community. It salves the soul, as it were.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

16. Comment #31724 by hogi on April 14, 2007 at 2:32 am

hello there..

i think most uf us would intuitively call the development of humankind over the millenia 'improvement' (as opposed to those who descibe it as 'decline' in order to justify weird political measures). since our brains haven't changed significantly in a biological sense since the romans or even the hunter-gatherers of the neolithic, this 'improvement' can only be measured by the degree of our understanding of the universe.

there has been a fair amount of different ways to understanding of the universe throughout history: trial & error, meditation, logical conclusion and even religion itself were once dominant strategies. today the dominant (and most successful) strategy is the scientific method. every time the dominant way is being replaced by a new one, it is a huge paradigm shift, which is often being referred to as transcendence.

as we have seen in history, we should avoid the concept of regarding ourselves as special in some way, and as naturally as we reject geocentrism and heliocentrism, we should reject the idea, that our time is and will be forever the most enlightened time of all. so we should expect the scientific method to be transcended in the future.

however, such a trancendence can only be reached by gradual improvement, and the best way to improve known to us is, in fact, the scientific method. this means humankind will some day transcend the scientific method, but this is going to happen through the scientific method itself!

all those faith-healers, bogus-doctors and religious authorities claim, that they have transcended the scientific method in some way, however not one of them is an expert on anything involving the scientific method. to me it seems that they and their believers are desperately looking for shortcuts to transcendence, actually to avoid the hard work of using the scientific method.

unfortunately most uneducated or lazy people fail to recognize, that the scientific method is our best bet to transcend the scientific method in the future.

Other Comments by hogi

17. Comment #31743 by nancy2001 on April 14, 2007 at 4:12 am

Great article from the Skeptical Inquirer. But it's tragic that articles like this don't appear in the National Enquirer (or any other supermarket tabloid). Of course, you'd have to simplify the text to an eighth grade reading level, but the basic message would remain. There's an urgent need for this information in the wider community. Perhaps Prof. Dawkins should add something like this to the work of his foundation. That way, the message would reach the people who could benefit from it most.

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18. Comment #31746 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 4:20 am

 avatarI've had the opportunity (misfortune) to debate 'alternative' medicine on many occasion with believers. Although they were all atheists, my conclusion was that the mechanism for belief is the same - they fall for the same logical fallacies as the religious bunch.

The thing that one soon discovers is that they are completely disinterested in how that 'alternative medicine' is supposed to work. It's not just that they don't know basic science, they are not interested in learning it. So an attack based on scientific arguments falls on deaf ears.

I have however found a rather effective argument that reaches through to them. Apart from their belief in the magic medicine, 'alternative medicine' proponents are deeply suspicious of the pharmaceutical companies - something that can be used.

You start by agreeing with them that pharmaceutical companies are greedy bastards that are only interested in profit.
Then you point out to them that those companies spend billions of euros for developing a single drug. 'Alternative medicine' on the other hand is extremely cheap. If there was any chance in hell that it could work, the pharmaceutical companies would produce 'alternative medicine' and increase their profit. Why spend decades on expensive research if you magic crystals and homeopathic solutions worked? They cost next to nothing.

Other Comments by denoir

19. Comment #31747 by Yorker on April 14, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatar11. Comment #31701 by Veronique

"...I have always used it as a disparaging term for wanky medicinals.

Be careful with that word "wanky" Veronique, is that Ozzie for "wonky", meaning unreliable or untrustworthy? Over here "wanky" is related to something entirely different! :)

Other Comments by Yorker

20. Comment #31750 by Rtambree on April 14, 2007 at 4:34 am

19. Comment #31747 by Yorker

wanky as in wanker - pretentious, over-inflated opinion, pseudo-intellectual, pretending to be cleverer and more sophisticated than they really are. Perhaps in the US, it's more literal.

It's funny how different English speaking countries use words differently. 'Root' in the USA is the barrack for. In Australia it's intercourse. 'Fortnight' isn't even used in the USA.

Then there's toilet v bathroom v dunny v can v lavatory v WC v loo v restroom

Elevator v lift
Taxi v cab
Globe v bulb
Spectacles v glasses

Other Comments by Rtambree

21. Comment #31752 by oeditor on April 14, 2007 at 4:46 am

"It's about channeling energy and resonating with the person. The principles of quantum physics explain many of these intuitive mystical aspects of attention and intention,"
And there was I, thinking it was a divine, local and temporary, suspension of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Andy McIntosh, where are you when we need you?
Brian

Other Comments by oeditor

22. Comment #31755 by Yorker on April 14, 2007 at 5:09 am

 avatar20. Comment #31750 by Rtambree

Here's a few more from an ex-Yank!



American word – British equiv.

Cookie – Biscuit
Biscuit – Scone
Chips – Crisps
Fries – Chips
Gas – Petrol
Tire – Tyre
Hood – Bonnet
Trunk – Boot
Wrench – Spanner
Vacation – Holiday
Sidewalk – Pavement
Pavement – Road
Heighth (yes, the "th" sound) – Height
Nukular (only a Bushism) – Nuclear
Etc. (eckcetra) – Etc. (et cetera)

The list goes on…:)

Other Comments by Yorker

23. Comment #31756 by pissinintothewind on April 14, 2007 at 5:18 am

Hi everybody, this subject is something of a personal bugbear,about 20 years ago I was introduced to a "new age" community and have had many dicussions on this topic. One of these people was diagnosed about 5 years ago with cancer of the cervix. She refused medical help (I almost said conventional) and instead consulted a "colour" healer from Liverpool approx 120 miles from where she lived. Her weekly treatment consisted of a telephone call to the healer who would inform her of the colour of the healing energy he was transmitting telepathically. She the subject was to lie on the floor with a minimum of four people around that cared, who would imagine the same healing colour flowing into her. She asked me to join the group I refused not wanting to condone the practise. As her situation got worse her treatment was upped to twice a week. She died 2 years ago never considering that she had made the wrong choise. A gentle ill educated gullible woman.I agree with denoir that the mechanism of the belief is the same for the religious. The only way this nonsense can be combated is through the education system by teaching skeptism and critical thinking. As for the frog walking on water its only a short hop to believing a man can do it aswell, maybe just after a lightening strike.

Other Comments by pissinintothewind

24. Comment #31762 by jaytee_555 on April 14, 2007 at 6:22 am

Psuedo-science is the unintended compliment Stupidity pays to Reason.

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25. Comment #31763 by bouwe on April 14, 2007 at 6:27 am

I know a person who thinks Jesus healed her of her back complaint many years ago and always cites it as incontrovertible evidence that god is real. Funny thing is, she's still got back complaints and ongoing multiple serious health problems, but that doesn't go against her beliefs...and if I asked her, I'm sure she would still say that "god healed my back" even though she's STILL got back ache!!!

There is no logic to it, some people just believe what they want to believe. "Evidence" is whatever they want to cite to support whatever they want to or already believe, and the vast majority of facts which go against it are conveniently ignored....just put on the horse blinkers and the rose-colored glasses and believe by FAITH in whatever you want to believe and grab the bits of science that might, superficially, seem to support it, cherry pick some facts, make them up -- whatever!! It is all consistent if you ignore all the inconvenient facts that go against it.

It is a big boost to the ego when "god" intervenes in the laws of physics to personally heal you of your ailment. And of course, YOU, must be "special" because someone down the street died of cancer and, even though they were a believer and prayed a lot (along with the local church congregation), they died anyway....but god healed YOU, because you had more faith.

I grew up with all that crap and it makes me sick --- oh, hold on....that must be because I don't have any faith......

Other Comments by bouwe

26. Comment #31766 by CJ on April 14, 2007 at 6:43 am

 avatarBook recommendation, The Quantum World – Quantum Physics for Everyone –
By Kenneth W Ford
ISBN 0-674-01832-x

Logical and extremely well written. Details of Kenneth Ford can be found at http://www.ianford.com/kenford/

Other Comments by CJ

27. Comment #31768 by Jack Rawlinson on April 14, 2007 at 6:54 am

 avatarAnother book recommendation for a different and highly amusing angle on the subject of "miracle" healers: The Hippopotamus, by Stephen Fry.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

28. Comment #31772 by kkant on April 14, 2007 at 7:26 am

Hey Yorker--

Here's one that you missed:

Cellphone vs Mobile


And on book recommendations, here's one on Physics. "The Fabric of the Cosmos" by Brian Greene.

Other Comments by kkant

29. Comment #31783 by Canuck#1 on April 14, 2007 at 9:29 am

 avatarTalk about a word that is misused - I grew up on a farm and without "bullshit" or other kinds of shit you would soon be cultivating barren ground. If you are talking about human shit if you stop producing it you die, so lets find a term that is not associated with our well-being. THANK YOU. Plus using the term "ad infinitum" is really boring and the word loses its "punch". I know it was wonderful the first time you used the forbidden word but, it's time to give it up!

Other Comments by Canuck#1

30. Comment #31785 by Patchell on April 14, 2007 at 9:34 am

 avatargreatness/Daniel

I think I had the exact same conversation with one of my friends who was in love with the "What the Bleep do we Know" film. I decided, like you, to watch the film myself only to be greatly disappointed. Many of the claims made in the film are made by "scientists" who work for the Ramtha School of enlightenment http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramtha and feel free to read my excellent (cheap plug) uncyclopedia article which I was inspired to write after finding out about Ramtha. http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Ramtha

Anyways, my friend just couldn't get his head around the fact Ramtha is a 35,000 year old Lemurian warrior being channeled by J.Z. Knight, or that all the "scientists" in the film were B.S. In our last conversation he couldn't understand why I would attack the film and how I could quote people like Dawkins, Harris, Dennet, etc and I wouldn't except the science of What the Bleep. I told him to pull his head out of his ass and do some research on the subject before he accepts anything as truth. And guess what!?!?!? He refused! "Why should I have to do any research, you always tell me to look it up and do research. I already have, I have seen the film and that's enough." This from a guy (who like your friend Daniel) said he was open minded to everything. Yeah right... open to mystical pseudo scientific B.S., not to anything that can be backed up with evidence and facts.

Anyways... rant over. You're not the only one who's had to put up with the ignorance of what the bleep Daniel. These idiots are all over the place.

Other Comments by Patchell

31. Comment #31787 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2007 at 9:59 am

 avatargreatness wrote:
It was all very weird and he was also offended by my assertion that his idea about walking through a door to a different world was not original to him. We argued about that for a long time.


Welcome, greatness. You're quite right. I think many here could cite at least a dozen well-known stories about a person finding a portal linking the 'real' world to some other dimension. Off the top of my head: 'The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe', 'Alice in Wonderland', the movie 'Stargate'.

The imaginative portal idea doesn't strike me as odd. What's odd is your friend's insistence that he originated the concept. That's nuts. No, it's beyond nuts. It's bat-shit crazy.

Is your friend functional? Can he brush his teeth, tie his shoes, hold down a job?

The movie, 'What the Bleep Do We Know?' is the WORST MOVIE EVER. The kindest thing I can say about it, is it's got great potential as a drinking game: take a swig each time someone says "quantum." You'll find yourself on the floor before you're tempted to throw things at the screen.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

32. Comment #31793 by DavidJMH on April 14, 2007 at 10:16 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,
"Alric" tries to make a point about amputees never having been "miraculously cured" but I have witnessed such an event.
During 1997 I worked as an EMS helicopter pilot for North Carolina Baptist Hospital. We were dispatched to a small rural clinic to bring in a three year old negro boy who had had his left arm completely severed above the elbow by a railway train running over him. The clinic had put his severed arm in a plastic bag in a bucket of ice and we flew him back to the hospital, all within an hour of the accident.
The surgeons were able to re-attach his arm and connect blood vessels, tissue, nerves, etc. and within moments were able to determine proper blood flow to the limb. Weeks later, the little boy walked out of the hospital with some use of his arm. The prognosis was, with proper therapy and exercise, he would regain 85% of the use of that arm.
That is a miracle, not of mysticism but one of the will of man to overcome what seems to be the impossible to benefit his fellow man.

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33. Comment #31810 by greatness on April 14, 2007 at 11:32 am

Thank you Pathcell and Dr Benway for your replies and thanks again Veronique:)

I really enjoyed your article on uncyclopedia Patchell, Steve the Neanderthal made me laugh:)

Also in relation to your own conversation of a similar type whenever I asked him to clarify what he was talking about so I could understand, like when he started talking about a creator at some point. I asked him to define that creator because he was making all kinds of assertions based on a creator of some kind and he would get all defensive and indignant at having to clarify anything. He would say several times "why do I have to clarify anything." I replied in order for him to influence my opinion which I assumed was the basis of our conversation (which he originated) I would have to understand his claims. Then he would simply say that he did not want to influence my opinion. I always thought that the conversation was over when ever he said that which was a couple of times but then he would be off again.

I really often could not get a handle on what he was really saying.

I also could not believe as you Dr. Benway that he would refute that his idea was not original to him. I was really sort of flabbergasted and simply asked him if he thought that noone had ever thought of that idea before in our society. He ofcourse granted that but he disputed that that had influenced him in any way.

But has anyone ever seen the floating frogg?

Thanks again everyone for your replies.

Rock on.
Daníel.

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34. Comment #31813 by ksskidude on April 14, 2007 at 11:46 am

 avatarPeople tell me all the time that I am a walking medical miracle. Of course I know differently. I broke my neck and was paralyzed from the neck down. My spinal cord had been severely bruised and flattend due to swelling in the spinal column.

Needless to say, my spinal cord did indeed give me a window of opportunity, and I maximized the opportunity to recover most but not all of my physical attributes. Now all of the crazy believers want to give credit to thier God. "Your so lucky, do you thank God for your recovery?"

I always respond with, "do you really believe that if I had just laid in bed and uttered prayers, I would have had the recovery I had?"

I AM NOT A CHOSEN OR A MEDICAL MIRACLE, just someone who made the most of a really catastrophic
situation. All thanks go to me! LOL

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35. Comment #31819 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 12:46 pm

greatness,
I believe I might have seen the floating frog.

Saw it twice, the second time a couple of weeks ago. Racking my brain to remember the context of the show (documentary?)

Bottomline is.... someone got a frog to hang in a magnetic field. Don't remember anything about water or walking(hopping?). The frog (alive) was simply suspended in the field. Anyone else?

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36. Comment #31821 by Logicel on April 14, 2007 at 12:52 pm

 avatarksskidude wrote: "Needless to say, my spinal cord did indeed give me a window of opportunity, and I maximized the opportunity to recover most but not all of my physical attributes."
________

Way to go!

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37. Comment #31824 by Logicel on April 14, 2007 at 1:06 pm

 avatarhogi wrote: "as we have seen in history, we should avoid the concept of regarding ourselves as special in some way, and as naturally as we reject geocentrism and heliocentrism, we should reject the idea, that our time is and will be forever the most enlightened time of all. so we should expect the scientific method to be transcended in the future."

and

"...it seems that they and their believers are desperately looking for shortcuts to transcendence, actually to avoid the hard work of using the scientific method."
________

Definitely agree with the second quote, but the first one is confusing. Science can certainly lead humanity down the path, which it has done already, of achieving such advancements that if previous generations could be transported to the present, they would think these scientific accomplishments were magic.

Their reaction would be similar to our own present generation's if we were confronted with the scientific achievements of a more advanced alien race. Through science, humanity can transcend perhaps some of their limitations, and in the process, make science an even more potent process and body of knowledge, which would then expand human understanding and ability to confront difficult issues even more--a kind of continuing, compound scientific interest.

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38. Comment #31831 by ghostbuster on April 14, 2007 at 1:50 pm

My sad entry into alternative medicine is my friend of over 40 years who had breast cancer and refused conventional treatments in favor of essiac tea and tumeric. Essiac tea has now been shown to increase breast cancer cells in vitro. While tumeric has shown some anti-cancer activity it is not achievable through diet and has only has shown some effect in rats. Now my friend has read a variety of crappola from Barefoots to Dreamhealers spouting this stuff. Now imagine going to your oncologist who is at the top of his field, ten years of medical school, another 20 years of looking at every concievable breast cancer cell, published numerous research articles not to mention volunteer work with those who cannot afford treatments, and in comes this nice little Jehovah Witness, Gary Gluck's cancer cure book under her arm, saying "I've done my research"! This is the problem with "research"; many people read pseudo-science and call it research. They don't know the difference between a cancer cell and a jail cell, but they read these books and think they know, often more than their doctor. Now my friend is Jehonah Witness which means her baloney detector is not only damaged but entirely absent, so one could expect this although even in the J.W. literature, alternative medicine is viewed suspiciously (since, of course, the J.W.'s have had some experience in looney-bin medical devices and don't want that tag again). Her oncologist respected her decision (although he only respected her right to make a decision) and knew better than to try to knock some sense into her. However, one does not have to be a fundy to get hooked on alternative medicine, organics, supplements and/or conspiracy threories. This is the reason critical thinking skills should be taught in schools from day one. It is the only innoculant to this stuff.
One year has passed and my friend is cancer free.
My biggest fear now is she will be spreading the Gary Gluck gospel of essiac tea and tumeric etc. and someone will die because of it. And to boot, when I went to a health store I got into a battle with a saleswoman who advocated my friend not take conventional treatments because of course, THEY sell essiac tea. I complained to the health directorate of Canada--no response--no surprise when you find out the 11 out of the 12 on the board are connected to the alternative health industry. Now we have colleges here offering courses/licensing in ancient chinese medicine--they have been given credibility!
What the Bleep Do We Know is symptomatic of a society that is anti-scientific, anti-intellectual. Totalitarian societies usually are, and they usually have religion behind them.

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39. Comment #31833 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 2:02 pm

Regarding all of the comments about people seeing god in things that are difficult (or damn near impossible) to understand... quantum mechanics, event horizon, dark matter....

Over the past year I have been quizzing the dozen or so people that I know that I have always considered very intelligent, and whose opinion I have respected. All of them have claimed to understand and 'believe' in evolution. But when pushed to say that the notion of a god was basically a mass delusion, all of them (with one exception) fought back with the argument that you can't prove that there is not…. often referencing quantum mechanics, dark matter etc.. A couple of them even starting referencing strange things that they had heard of second hand regarding reincarnation and ghosts. It is f***ing frustrating as hell. I'm going to quiz my uncle in about an hour. Please let there be hope. I have never questioned my own 'faith' in humanity as I do now.

My basic problem with this "lack of understanding"… other than the obvious, is that in the end, all of these people want to believe in the notion of a top down designer. And, in my opinion, anyone who subscribes to the concept of top down design is a dictator in waiting.

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40. Comment #31834 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 2:29 pm

ghostbuster post 38
"Now we have colleges here offering courses/licensing in ancient chinese medicine--they have been given credibility!"

Two of my cousins that I don't know all too well (brother and sister) have gone in completely two different directions. One is a medical doctor who graduated from some of the best universities in the US. He currently does research on shit that is way over my head involving blood and the heart. The other has become a liscenced chinese medical doctor. Sheeesh.
Their father is the uncle I reference in the above post (who has stated to me that he doesn't like religion). Not sure what this proves..other than I have a screwed up family.

If there is an atheist gene.. then it seems to be rare.

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41. Comment #31851 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 4:17 pm

greatness
I give you the levitating frog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-xw_fmB2KA

Brief explanation here... I didn't read it too carefully.

http://www.rare-earth-magnets.com/magnet_university/magnetic_levitation.htm

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42. Comment #31857 by greatness on April 14, 2007 at 4:55 pm

Thank you Bremas.

I must say that I was disappointed with the levitating frog, the way he had described it to me suggested that the frog was walking on water and just milling about as frogs do:)

Rock on.
Daníel.

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43. Comment #31858 by Veronique on April 14, 2007 at 4:58 pm

 avatar19. Comment #31747 by Yorker

Hahaha! Wanker is a very well used and usually socially acceptable disparagement in the old Oz. It does, however, have the onanastic connotations to which you alluded.

As in: He must have two. He couldn't be that silly doing(euphemism)one.LOL

It's interesting that the word has taken on so many shades of meaning from its original that it is socially acceptable.

Good lists of changed meanings. I do recommend to everyone, Bill Bryson's Mother Tongue and Melvyn Bragg's The Adventure of English.

Both excellent books and, of course, Bryson spent so long in the UK, that he has some hilarious Brysonesque tales to relate. Well worth a read; I couldn't put either one down and talk about LOL!

Cheers
V

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44. Comment #31875 by ghostbuster on April 14, 2007 at 8:06 pm

Just a correction re: Gary Gluck--actually it's Gary Glum. Apologies to any Glucks out there.
Some have said that giving alternative medicine a license will mean they must then "prove" their theories. Sort of like Church's having to prove theirs, I suppose. What it also means is that it opens the doors for every crackpot medicine man going and since there are virtually no "rules" for alternative health, people are going to be hurt. Witchdoctors, Shamans, even in the Canadian health code there's a part that says "respecting traditional medicines" meaning of course, one can't put the practice of smearing chicken blood on cancer under criticism since it might offend someone's cultural beliefs. This brings us to cultural relativism, of course.
Bremas--your family isn't screwed up. Perfectly normal.

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45. Comment #31966 by chamber on April 15, 2007 at 4:30 am

Miracles are the act of God that we, with a limited conception, knowledge and perception, are unable to understand. Since it happened either we will deny it by mocking it or we believe that the miracles are the special arrangements for the prophets to make their people believe if they insist seeing through their eyes not throuh the eyes of their mind. Disciples of the Jesus Christ committed the miracle –like cures with the name of God and these cannot be denied so denying the power of the prayers will not make them disappear. They are still there waiting for those unbelievers to make them believe. Miracles can be seen by eyes but understood by faith. Human being body is already a miracle we see it and we acknowledge that it is a miracle. Otherwise our mind will be descending in our eyes and without faith we will turn out to be blind.

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46. Comment #32010 by Luthien on April 15, 2007 at 8:06 am

 avatar7. Comment #31691 by gav1970 on April 13, 2007 at 9:41 pm
He's just another thief. Nothing more. In the past he's refused any sort of empiric testing and has also refused to take part in the JREF million dollar prize. See here http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-10/100613who.html

Liars like this make me sick (or is that a little too ironic).


I recently confronted someone in work who does "Reiki" at the weekends (as well as being a "faith healer"), who was trying to drum up business during teabreak by using all that psudo science mumbo jumbo. I started to challenge everything he was saying, untill he started invoking the "gift from god" defense. Then I asked him why he did not go for the JREF million dollar prize, and he gave me some crap about wanting to help people, rather than being in it for the money. 5 mins later he was down handing a business card and web address to the nice lady he was trying to get business from. I went over to her as she was looking at his website, and she said to me "look how much he charges for a session, I thought he wasn't in it for the money?"

So glad I spoke up when I did!

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47. Comment #32040 by ghostbuster on April 15, 2007 at 10:22 am

No Chamber, miracles are seen by those who have limited conception, knowledge,or perception of science. Any magician can perform a "miracle" and anything can be perceived as a miracle when there is a lack of explanation--then along comes the witchdoctor or some other perceptively gifted crook to tell you exactly, for a price, what the explanation is. If it were any different we would,'t have millions of people giving up their thought processes to listen to gibberish from Popes prophets, priests , pastors, gurus, and an assortment of other magic men/women.
I am afraid Chamber's mind has already descended through his/her eyes and fell right onto the floor.

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48. Comment #32118 by BeamMeUp on April 15, 2007 at 8:07 pm

If someone truely believed in a god that listened and acted, why would they bother going to a doctor? If you spend your time praying, god should do something in return. How ironic that most believers still need to do the same things non believers do when sick or injured. I guess ten hours of prayer and a doctor visit will fix you or just the doctor visit. It's your choice.

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49. Comment #32126 by lawrelwill on April 15, 2007 at 9:10 pm

I think that Christians should be prohibited from bringing medical malpractice suits. In my high Christian content State of Florida office, whenever someone with a serious illness improves or recovers, the Christians immediately attribute ALL of the credit to "the Lord" and to their own efforts at praying. They never give ANY of the credit to the skill, knowledge, and experience of the Dr. So by contrast, since no credit goes to the Dr. when there is a good outome, then none of the discredit should go to the Dr. when there is an unsuccessful outcome. It would appear that "the Lord" must have either been calling the deceased home or not giving him more than the Lord knew he could handle.

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50. Comment #32129 by nancyjesse on April 15, 2007 at 10:18 pm

My mother was diagnosed with colon cancer last summer. She lives in another state and chose to come to Texas to MD Anderson cancer center in Houston for her treatment rather than relying on the "hick" doctors (her words) in Illinois. After weeks in the hospital, chemotherapy, radiation and surgery, she was cancer free at 6 months. I was with her in the doctor's office when he told her she was now cancer free and rather than attribute it to the wonderful and highly skilled doctors, nurses, techs and others she simply said "God did it". I almost fell in the floor! I asked her where the evidence of this was and she told me that her entire congregation back home was praying for her and that cured her. I couldn't hold back my disgust and then asked her why the church folks couldn't have prayed for the "hick" doctors to cure her. I guess that was just too difficult.

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