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Saturday, April 14, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document As Religious Strife Grows, Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

by Andrew Higgins, WSJ

Also see:
Outside the box: Skeptics Through History, From Socrates to Dawkins

THE NEW CRUSADERS
As Religious Strife Grows,
Europe's Atheists Seize Pulpit

Islam's Rise Gives Boost To Militant Unbelievers; The Celebrity Hedonist

By ANDREW HIGGINS
April 12, 2007; Page A1

CAEN, France -- With 40 minutes to go before show time, the 500-seat Alexis de Tocqueville auditorium was already packed. A fan set up a video camera in the front row. A sound engineer checked the microphones.

The star: Michel Onfray, celebrity philosopher and France's high priest of militant atheism. Dressed entirely in black, he strode onto the stage and looked out at the reverential audience for his weekly two-hour lecture series, "Hedonist Philosophy," which is broadcast on a state radio station. "I could found a religion," he said.

Mr. Onfray, 48 years old and author of 32 books, stands in the vanguard of a curious and increasingly potent phenomenon in Europe: zealous disbelief in God.

Passive indifference to faith has left Europe's churches mostly empty. But debate over religion is more intense and strident than it has been in many decades. Religion is re-emerging as a big issue in part because of anxiety over Europe's growing and restive Muslim populations and a fear that faith is reasserting itself in politics and public policy. That is all adding up to a growing momentum for a combative brand of atheism, one that confronts rather than merely ignores religion.

Karen Armstrong, a former Catholic nun and prominent British author on religion, calls the trend "missionary secularism." She says it mimics the ardor of Christianity, Islam and Marxism, all of which have at their core an urge to convert nonbelievers to their worldview.


Mr. Onfray argues that atheism faces a "final battle" against "theological hocus-pocus" and must rally its troops. "We can no longer tolerate neutrality and benevolence," he writes in "Traité d'athéologie," or Atheist Manifesto, a best seller in France, Italy and Spain. "The turbulent time we live in suggests that change is at hand and the time has come for a new order."

As with many fights involving faith, Europe's struggle between belief and nonbelief is also a proxy for other, concrete issues that go far beyond the supernatural. In this case, they involve a battle to define the identity of a continent.

Half a century after the 1957 Treaty of Rome laid the foundations for the now 27-nation European Union, Europe has secured peace and prosperity. But it is deeply uncertain about what binds the bloc together beyond mere economic self-interest. Says Ms. Armstrong: "There is a big fight going on to define European civilization."

In London last month, leading British atheists squared off with defenders of faith in a public debate on the motion, "We'd be better off without religion." Tickets cost nearly $40 but so many people wanted to attend that the event was moved to a bigger venue with over 2,000 seats. It still sold out. The audience declared the atheists the victors, by a margin of 1,205 to 778, with a few score abstentions.

In Germany, a wealthy furniture manufacturer is funding a "think tank of Enlightenment," a group of scientists and others committed to debunking religion. It is named after Giordano Bruno, a 16th-century philosopher and cosmologist who was burnt at the stake as a heretic. In Italy, one fervent nonbeliever has gone to the European Court of Human Rights with a claim that the Roman Catholic Church is guilty of fraud: Jesus, he says, never existed.

Prime Catalyst

Alarm over Islam has acted as the prime catalyst for much of the polemic. Europe's Muslim populace, estimated at between 15 million and 20 million people, is growing more numerous, more vocal and, in some cases, more religious. The clash also feeds on a deeper confrontation that dates back to Europe's Enlightenment, the 18th-century intellectual movement that asserted the primacy of reason over superstition.

"The battle over religion is restarting. It is going to be a difficult one," says Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, an organization that was founded in the 19th century but has now gained a new vibrancy. Membership has doubled in the past four years, to around 7,000, says Mr. Sanderson. For converts from Christianity, the society provides a certificate of "de-baptism." "Make it official!" urges the society's Web site, www.secularism.org.uk2.

The atheist cause won a big-name endorsement late last year when pop star Elton John, in an interview, said organized religion turned people into "hateful lemmings" and should be banned.

The backlash against religiosity has even seeped into Europe's Muslim community. In February, Mina Ahadi, an Iranian-born woman in Cologne, Germany, set up the Continent's first Muslim atheist group: the National Council of Ex-Muslims. She immediately started getting death threats and was put under police protection.

"Our main message is: 'We don't believe,' " says Ms. Ahadi, talking in a coffee shop next to Cologne Cathedral, a towering tribute to faith that took 600 years to complete. A police guard hovered nearby.

Atheism, Ms. Ahadi says, must confront religion head-on -- and adopt its methods. Her group started with just 30 members in February and a month later had more than 400. It is lobbying European Union officials for restrictions on the veil and organizing a public meeting at which ex-Muslims will explain why they quit. "If you want to work against Muslim movements, you have to be like them," she says. "We have to go outside and say what we're fighting for."

Europe's atheist campaigners have also made a splash in America. "The God Delusion," a book by Oxford Professor Richard Dawkins, has been on the New York Times hardcover nonfiction best-seller list for 28 weeks. Another British atheist, U.S.-based writer Christopher Hitchens, has written his own antireligious treatise, "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything," due out in May.

Christianity, once the bedrock of Europe's identity, has been losing worshipers on the Continent for at least half a century, though some opinion polls suggest the downward trend has bottomed out. Around three-quarters of Europeans still describe themselves as Christians. But only a small minority go to church. In Western Europe, according to polls, fewer than 20% do.

The number of atheists is hard to pin down. Some surveys put the figure at under 3%, but others say it is much higher.

When the European Union asked citizens to rank values representing Europe, religion came last -- far behind "human rights," "democracy," "peace," "individual freedom" and other choices. Only 3% chose religion.

Religious leaders are pushing back against the assertive unbelievers. The Church of England's Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, complained in a December statement about "illiberal atheists who have joined forces with aggressive secularists." He was responding to demands that Jesus be removed from nativity plays and that Christmas parties be called "winter festival" gatherings.

Mr. Onfray's atheist tract, recently translated into English, has prompted three book-length rebuttals by angry Christians and a flood of articles. To counter Prof. Dawkins's "God Delusion," an Oxford theology professor wrote his own book, "The Dawkins Delusion."

Both atheists and their foes agree on one thing: God -- declared dead over a century ago by German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche -- is making a comeback, at least as a focus of controversy. "Faith is on the public agenda in a way that is unprecedented in recent times," proclaimed the founding manifesto of Theos, a new British-based Christian think tank.

Europe's atheist movement has no Vatican-like central command and springs from many different sources. Some adherents have personal grievance. Mr. Onfray spent part of his youth in a home run by Catholic priests, who he says mistreated him and abused others. Ms. Ahadi, head of the German ex-Muslims group, says her first husband was executed by Islamic revolutionaries in Iran.

Secular Europeans voice dismay at American religiosity and worry that faith-based reasoning is spreading in Europe, too. Many Britons, for example, believe the Christian faith of Prime Minister Tony Blair helped lead him to entangle Britain in America's war in Iraq.

Deep Suspicion

There is also deep suspicion of Poland, a devoutly Catholic new member of the European Union. Its deputy education minister late last year urged the teaching of creationism, the Bible-inspired alternative to Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

Celebrations last month to honor the 50th anniversary of the EU's founding Treaty of Rome were marred by squabbling over whether Christianity, among other things, should be mentioned in a declaration defining the bloc's basic principles. Atheists and secularists who believe religion has no place in politics campaigned hard to prevent any nod to Christianity and drafted their own so-called Brussels Declaration affirming Europe's secular moorings.


A demonstrator holds a banner that reads 'No God, Atheism is Freedom' outside St. Peter's Square in Rome, at a 2003 protest against the Vatican's condemnation of gay marriage.

The faithful lost, and the EU marked its birthday in Berlin without any mention of Christianity. Pope Benedict XVI was furious. "How can they exclude an element as essential to the identity of Europe as Christianity?" he asked at a conference organized by European bishops. Europe is committing a "peculiar form of apostasy."

The most potent force driving activist atheism is concern that Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, is jeopardizing the principles of the Enlightenment -- and emboldening other religions to raise their voices, too, and re-fight old battles.

"I have a big problem with Islam," says Mr. Onfray, the French philosopher. Last fall, he offered sanctuary at his house in northern France to a high-school philosophy teacher who had received death threats from Muslims. The teacher had denounced the Prophet Muhammad as a "merciless warlord" in a newspaper article. But Mr. Onfray says his basic beef is with all religions, not just Islam.

Europe's disquiet over Islam soared after the November 2004 murder by a Muslim militant in Amsterdam of Theo van Gogh, an irreverent Dutch writer, filmmaker and antireligious polemicist. Then came a global furor over cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad published in a Danish newspaper, Jyllands-Posten.

A French court in March ended a long legal campaign by Muslim groups to jail the editor of a satirical weekly that republished the cartoons. The court ruled that the editor had committed no crime. One of the groups that initiated the case immediately vowed to appeal.

"There is an identity crisis. We have to answer the question: Who are we? One answer is to say we're atheists," says Flemming Rose, the Danish journalist who first commissioned the drawings and now gets invited to speak to atheist groups.

Muslim activism is encouraging other faiths to be more assertive. University of London professor Anthony Grayling cites violent protests by British Sikhs that forced the cancellation of a play in Birmingham in 2004, and Christian protests against the television broadcast of a London opera that featured Jesus dressed in diapers. Christians and Muslims both campaigned vigorously, but without success, to torpedo elements of a new British law that bans discrimination against homosexuals. Such faith-based agitation, says Mr. Grayling, threatens a "dark ages for free enquiry and free speech."

Atheism in Europe dates back to the ancient Greeks, who coined the word "atheos," meaning godless. Socrates was convicted of atheism and poisoned. Early Christians and their foes each branded the other "atheist."

Atheism as a philosophical system first took root in the 17th century. British philosopher Thomas Hobbes dismissed religion as "lies." He fled to France. There, Voltaire and other French thinkers took up the cause with gusto, though many did not entirely reject the possibility of some sort of deity. The Soviet Union enshrined atheism as a state creed.

Mr. Onfray, the French philosopher, says he believed in God as a child in the same way as he "believed in Santa Claus." His impoverished parents, a farm laborer and a cleaning lady, put him in a church-run home for orphans when he was 10. He developed a loathing of Christianity and now embraces what he calls "ethical hedonism." He's not married but has had the same female companion for 30 years. He says they have a "hedonist contract," which does not require monogamy. But, he says, hedonism is not "about cigars, vintage Bordeaux and expensive cars."

'Foundation of Morality'

"To enjoy and make others enjoy without doing ill to yourself or to others, this is the foundation of all morality," he says, citing an 18th-century French writer, Nicolas Chamfort.

After nearly 20 years teaching philosophy at a Catholic high school, Mr. Onfray in 2002 set up an experimental college in the Normandy town of Caen, near the beaches of the 1944 D-Day landing. Called the Université Populaire de Caen, it has no exams, no degrees and consists of public lectures by Mr. Onfray and a few friends.

The local government helps cover costs, and Caen's public university lets him use its main auditorium -- to the chagrin of its philosophy department, which is headed by a devout Catholic and takes a dim view of Mr. Onfray's diatribes against God. "Frankly, we think he talks a lot of garbage," says Emmanuel Housset, a philosophy lecturer.

Caen's Catholic theological college has tried to fight back. Maurice Morand, a priest, went on local radio to denounce Mr. Onfray's work. "He is a fundamentalist who hides behind the ideas of the Enlightenment," says Father Morand. "We can't defeat him, we can only denounce him."

Mr. Onfray's popularity shows no sign of flagging. At a recent lecture, the 100th so far, an adoring audience held aloft lit candles and cigarette lighters in tribute. A middle-aged man took the floor to praise Mr. Onfray for providing "the key to life."

Pierre Andrieu, a 63-year-old former executive with BNP-Paribas, a French bank, travels up to Caen each week from Paris for the lecture show. He makes the trip, he says, because he shares Mr. Onfray's take on faith -- and fears that religion is making a comeback. "It is far more present than before," he says. "This need for religion is very, very strong. Religion is like magic. It is all about tricks."

Ahead of France's presidential election later this month, Philosophie Magazine arranged a meeting recently between Mr. Onfray and the front-running candidate, Nicolas Sarkozy, who sometimes attends church. They argued about faith, politics and philosophy. As a gift, Mr. Onfray gave Mr. Sarkozy several books, including one by his favorite philosopher, Nietzsche. Its title: "The Anti-Christ."

URL for this article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117631918714166684.html

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1. Comment #31727 by BMMcArdle on April 14, 2007 at 2:43 am

Thank Goodness!

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

2. Comment #31730 by mjwemdee on April 14, 2007 at 3:02 am

 avatarI must say Monsieur Onfray and his 'ethical hedonism' sound rather fun. I am off to France this week and I shall certainly be buying and reading his books.
This article is a good panoramic summing-up of the struggle so far. There is something that rather brings tears to my eyes when you feel that you are part of a movement that is slowly but surely happening across continents. Whether, in the final analysis, these will be tears of joy or sorrow remains to be seen.

Other Comments by mjwemdee

3. Comment #31733 by Rtambree on April 14, 2007 at 3:12 am

Some good news. We need some statistics on the break-up between age groups - is it just old lefty intellectuals or are the young getting in on it too? This will give us a clue about the future.

I've heard on the BBC that many young Muslims in England are actually more devout than their parents.

Other Comments by Rtambree

4. Comment #31739 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 3:56 am

 avatar
The number of atheists is hard to pin down. Some surveys put the figure at under 3%, but others say it is much higher.


3%? Nonsense or a typo. 30% explicit atheists is a very conservative estimate for the EU as a whole. If you remove Poland, Italy and Portugal, the number will go up to about 40-50%. There is still a great variation - for instance on one hand you have Spain with < 20% and on the other Sweden with > 80% explicit atheists.

Anyway, the article is correct that the number is difficult to pin down as a majority of theist Europeans are religious in theory and atheists in practice. When confronted, they will say that perhaps, maybe they believe in a higher power, or God, but otherwise that question has no impact on their lives.

That kind of homeopathic theism isn't quite religion, but isn't atheism either. People are just indifferent to the whole thing.

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5. Comment #31742 by RascoHeldall on April 14, 2007 at 4:02 am

"I've heard on the BBC that many young Muslims in England are actually more devout than their parents."

When I was at school in the sixth form (not THAT long ago) the students with Muslim parents would try and out-compete each other to be 'more' Muslim than the other - this even extended to affecting Indian-subcontinental accents which they didn't naturally have. Strange.

[ETA: Can someone explain how I box-out a quotation? Oh and how do I do italics? Thanks.]

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6. Comment #31748 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatar
[ETA: Can someone explain how I box-out a quotation? Oh and how do I do italics? Thanks.]


Like that. ;-)

No, but seriously, you have the synatax and instructions here:
http://richarddawkins.net/commentNotes.html

Other Comments by denoir

7. Comment #31753 by Robert Maynard on April 14, 2007 at 5:02 am

 avatarI sometimes worry about the concept of atheist churches, but it's probably an overall good thing to help build communities. :|

They just sound like the kind of things that would provide solidarity to obnoxious nihilists as well..
And on the other hand, when people come up and thank a speaker for "providing the key to life", it starts to sound like a glorified self-help seminar..

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8. Comment #31754 by nancy2001 on April 14, 2007 at 5:04 am

I was delighted to see a front page article on atheism in the conservative Wall Street Journal. But I was very disappointed to read that disparaging and hackneyed cliche "militant atheism." It's ironic that the fundamentalists who terrify and brainwash people with threats of eternal damnation referred to "missionaries" and "evangelists," but those who inspire people to adopt reason and rationality are tarred as "militants."

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9. Comment #31759 by Damien Trotter on April 14, 2007 at 5:37 am

 avatar
Religious leaders are pushing back against the assertive unbelievers. The Church of England's Archbishop of York, John Sentamu, complained in a December statement about "illiberal atheists who have joined forces with aggressive secularists." He was responding to demands that Jesus be removed from nativity plays and that Christmas parties be called "winter festival" gatherings delusional strawmen of his own making.


Fixed!

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10. Comment #31767 by Jeebus on April 14, 2007 at 6:52 am

It's not part of the EU yet but I found this quite heartening:

Pro-Secularism Rally in Turkey

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11. Comment #31770 by epeeist on April 14, 2007 at 7:10 am

 avatarComment #31730 by mjwemdee
I am off to France this week


You ought to try some of the naturist (nudist) sites, such as the Ile du Levant. Contrary to what our Muslim friends think these don't cause insatiable lust in the men there. In fact there is much less sexual tension than on textile beaches, or even your local high school.

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12. Comment #31771 by poppythinks on April 14, 2007 at 7:20 am

 avatarloved the bit about the fervent nonbeliever in italy taking the roman catholic church to the european court for human rights for fraud, claiming jesus did not exist.....
anyone know more?
would love to follow this story...........

Other Comments by poppythinks

13. Comment #31773 by MIND_REBEL on April 14, 2007 at 7:30 am

 avatarThe reason why Europe has a better standard of living than third world countries is because it's secular tradition. The nonbelievers and scientists were able to improve life and balance out the negative effects of faith-heads. If liberals really want to help Africa they should just close down all the churches and teach them about science.

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14. Comment #31776 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 7:44 am

Thats crass. Trade is what brings prosperity and there is nothing stopping you from being a Godly merchant as many of the men from the italien companies in the middle ages were. Modern America is very religious and has a higher standard of living than Europe.

As for the assertion that liberals could help Africa by closing down all their churches and teaching them about science. This is plain insulting. Do you not think literacy is a higher priority than your hazy notion of 'science'. How would an understanding of acid base chemistry help a poor farmer. Do you not think that the many religious charities do more good by trying to promote farming and sustainable land management. Do you not think that the church is important a sense of community in poorer towns? In your mission to bring your enlightenment to Africa it appears you have not abandoned the idea of the 'white mans burden'. Believeing in God does not make people poor or indeed less well educated than you.

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15. Comment #31777 by phasmagigas on April 14, 2007 at 7:49 am

 avatarIn the UK sunday church attendance is a very quite and lowly affair with an older age group in the main and few young men. The pre prayer gathering of people attending mosques is a very different matter. In 'feel' it has far more in common with people gathering for a football match and consists of many young men. What happens in a church and a mosque is not equivalent. The mosque attendance seems to be more than god, more an affirmation of belonging to a group and not belonging to another. I can say this with some authority as I was brought up within a highly Islamic community and aside from ecomomic transaction the communities are unfortunately very separate, religion plays some part in this.

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16. Comment #31778 by HughCaldwell on April 14, 2007 at 7:52 am

The non-religious are more than a billion strong. The rank order for religious positions, according to adherents.com, is :

Christianity: 2.1 billion

Islam: 1.3 billion

Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion

Hinduism: 900 million

Chinese traditional religion: 394 million

Buddhism: 376 million

primal-indigenous: 300 million

African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million

Sikhism: 23 million

Juche: 19 million
http://adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Other Comments by HughCaldwell

17. Comment #31784 by AdrianB on April 14, 2007 at 9:31 am

 avatarI am getting a bit peeved at hearing the term militant atheist.

Loud and vocal we maybe, an urge to convert to our way of thinking we may have, but militant certainly not. We are no more militant than an Anglican vicar. We are just starting to shout our cause, but until we start adopting the same tactics as the militant theists, violence or threats of violence (which we won't), then we should argue against the use of the term militant whenever it is used against us.

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18. Comment #31786 by Yorker on April 14, 2007 at 9:35 am

14. Comment #31776 by cheshirecat

"Modern America is very religious and has a higher standard of living than Europe."

In ten years of life there, that wasn't my experience. It's true that some Americans have a higher standard of living than most people but they are a small minority. I saw more poor people in the USA than any European country I've been in. Just look at the UK, many Brits can afford a two or three week foreign holiday every year, most Americans can't, indeed, I never saw any American worker take more than a week off at any time! Many of them have to work two jobs to keep going, that's not what I'd call a high standard. Often students generally "work" their way through college doing menial night-time jobs.

The USA is a land of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, sometimes in close proximity, extreme poverty however, is much more common than extreme wealth. I'll put it this way, if I had to choose a country to go broke in, I'd take a European one any day!

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19. Comment #31788 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 10:06 am

What you say may be true but i'm sure it also has something to do with the respective social circles you mixed in. You get older move back home and join the borgeoise - suddenly you find all your friends are going skiing every year, making fesh pasta and voting liberal democrat. I don't know about you

However the GDP of America is higher than that of Britian and Ireland. There are some pretty rich people in the UK that sway the figures too. So its not good enough to equate religiousity with poverty

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20. Comment #31789 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 10:07 am

 avatarThe most potent force driving activist atheism is concern that Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, is jeopardizing the principles of the Enlightenment -- and emboldening other religions to raise their voices, too, and re-fight old battles.

Thats it in a nut shell.

The USA is a land of extreme wealth and extreme poverty, sometimes in close proximity, extreme poverty however, is much more common than extreme wealth. I'll put it this way, if I had to choose a country to go broke in, I'd take a European one any day!

I'll echo this sentiment. The "religious" US is outperformed by the "atheist" EU in almost every social indicator you care to name,and thats lumbered with tens of million of new citizens from the eastern accession. Give me the EU, and atheist morality any day!!

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21. Comment #31790 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 10:09 am

 avatar
Modern America is very religious and has a higher standard of living than Europe.


It depends a bit how you measure it. If you look at the mean (say GDP/capita) then western Europe and America are similar. If you look at the median (a number such that half or the population is on one side of it and the other half on the other) you get quite a different picture - a much lower median in America.

The reason for this is that there are a small but significant number of über-rich people in America that raise the overall mean. Remove the richest 5% of Americans and the US average falls on the level of one of the more prosperous ex-Eastern European countries such as Slovenia or the Czech Republic.

That isn't the whole story though. The cost of living is much lower in the US (both products and services). On the other hand you don't have a universal health insurance or much of any other social protection to speak of. And in the EU you get a minimum of five weeks paid vacation etc

So it's a difficult comparison. Roughly speaking, if you are a well educated upper middle class (doctor, engineer, lawyer...), healthy white male then you'll be better off economically in America. If you are sick, poor or in any other way in a disadvantageous position then Europe would be more beneficial for you.

In America you have the extremely rich and the extremely poor, an upper middle class bankrolled by the lower middle class.

In Europe you don't have the extremes while you have a lower middle class bankrolled by the upper middle class.

Both systems have their advantages and disadvantages. It is funny though with the whole "Christian compassion" propaganda that the über-religious America is far less compassionate than the far more secular Europe.

Other Comments by denoir

22. Comment #31794 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 10:18 am

 avatarHowever the GDP of America is higher than that of Britian and Ireland.

Actually ... Ireland now has a slightly higher per capita GDP than the US, and of course thats welcome. However social indicators, are a much more meaningful indicator, and the EU has this wrapped up.

All top 10 "best places to live" are European Countries, the US doesn't even make it into 10th place, that goes to Spain!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4020523.stm

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23. Comment #31797 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 10:26 am

 avatar

Actually ... Ireland now has a slightly higher per capita GDP than the US, and of course thats welcome. However social indicators, are a much more meaningful indicator, and the EU has this wrapped up.


The 2006 list from the IMF for nominal GDP/capita:
Rank Country GDP ($) per capita
1 Luxembourg 87,955
2 Norway 72,306
3 Qatar 62,914
4 Iceland 54,858
5 Ireland 52,440
6 Switzerland 51,771
7 Denmark 50,965
8 United States 44,190
9 Sweden 42,383
10 Netherlands 40,571
11 Finland 40,197
12 United Kingdom 39,213
13 Austria 38,961
14 Canada 38,951
15 Belgium 37,214
16 Australia 36,553
17 France 35,404
18 Germany 35,204
19 Japan 34,188
20 United Arab Emirates 33,397
21 Italy 31,791
22 Kuwait 31,051
23 Brunei 30,298
24 Singapore 29,917
25 Spain 27,767


Note that it's not adjusted for living costs, but just the raw values. On the other hand the adjusted ones don't take into consideration social protection, vacations, work hours etc so they're not good estimates either.

Other Comments by denoir

24. Comment #31799 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 10:36 am

"Remove the richest 5% of Americans"

Is that not the same over here? you give no comparison. If you took away the 5% richest in the UK what would happen


If Americans want a welfare state they should vote for one. This has nothing to do with atheist Europe and religious America. They are simply two different social systems.

The soviet union was unsucessful because it pursued a planned economy. The fact it was an atheistic state was neither here nor there. Capitalism makes people rich not atheism. Social systems need to catch those who cannot help themselves not impede those who can. Such a thing would be natural in a christisn country one would have thought. Certainly the foundation of the welfare state was based upon christian socialism. (pensions acts 1911 etc etc)

Though I agree that American christianity can be a little less charitable than perhaps it might be under the circumstances. After all:

And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

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25. Comment #31802 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 11:04 am

 avatar
Is that not the same over here? you give no comparison. If you took away the 5% richest in the UK what would happen


I have no idea, but I'm guessing that the per capita billionaires number is higher in the US than in the UK.

The key is the income distribution. Here's a comparison of US an UK:


US distribution


UK distribution


If Americans want a welfare state they should vote for one. This has nothing to do with atheist Europe and religious America. They are simply two different social systems.


Yes, but not entirely. The Calvinist doctrine of god rewarding people on earth is a strong tradition in the US. If you are poor then god is punishing you, so clearly you deserve to be poor. That sort of thing.

Other Comments by denoir

26. Comment #31803 by Rtambree on April 14, 2007 at 11:04 am

Most of the USA's wealth is concentrated in the top few percent. It's one of the most inegalitarian countries in the OECD. Longevity, infant mortality and poverty rates are also dismal for such a wealthy country.

>Capitalism makes people rich

Don't take this for granted. The world's richest economies became wealthy over hundreds of years by slavery, theft, imperialism, protected markets, subsidies, etc. There's not much evidence that privatisation and pure capitalism ensures the wellbeing of a country's population.

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27. Comment #31805 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 11:13 am

No there needs to be a balance. Not just freetrade but fairtrade. Thats why US protectionism against poor markets is inexcuseable. The EU do it to some extent too.

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28. Comment #31806 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 11:21 am

 avatar27. Comment #31805 by cheshirecat on April 14, 2007 at 11:13 am

No there needs to be a balance. Not just freetrade but fairtrade. Thats why US protectionism against poor markets is inexcuseable. The EU do it to some extent too.


I'll support you to the hilt on that. Both the US and EU agricultural lobbies exert disproportionate influence on policy making, and I actually think the EU may be worse on that front.

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29. Comment #31808 by MIND_REBEL on April 14, 2007 at 11:27 am

 avatarReligion causes poverty. Look at any African country compared to any Northern European country. The only difference is religious traditions which foster irrationiality and destroy the social order. If atheists are succesful in eradicating religion and other memes than than we will also eliminate poverty and crime and the bulk of the worlds problems.

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30. Comment #31815 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 12:22 pm

 avatarMIND_REBEL:
Religion causes poverty. Look at any African country compared to any Northern European country.


The implication is the other way around - poverty causes religion. Or even better: uncertainty leads to religion. The reason why the northern European countries are so non-religious is to great extent because they are so stable with very strong social protection.

People get really religious when they are desperate, be it because of illness or any other insecurity. What religion provides is a firm (albeit artificial) wall which they can use as support when everything else is uncertain. It also allows them to project their wishful thinking.

God is the über-parent that adults go crying to when the world is mean to them. It is of course a delusion but I can imagine situations where the alternative - a mental breakdown is worse.

Dawkins likened it to "sucking a dummy for comfort" and I agree. He further said that it wasn't a "very dignified or respect-worthy posture for an adult". My opinion that on a basis of empathy one should have an understanding of it in some cases.

Suppose a child dies of cancer and the parents turn to religion. Is it really relevant that it is nonsense or not dignified? Or should we perhaps have some compassion for their suffering and let them have their religious nonsense if it helps them cope with the situation?

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31. Comment #31820 by Robert Maynard on April 14, 2007 at 12:46 pm

 avatarMIND_REBEL, To paraphrase denoir, you won't solve the worlds problems by removing religion - the best bet for removing religion is to solve the world's problems. Widespread secularism is a emergent property of modernity in the First World, not the other way around.

To paraphrase even further - the reality of the situation is nowhere near as simplistic as you are attempting to describe it.

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32. Comment #31822 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 14, 2007 at 12:54 pm

 avatarMIND_REBEL, To paraphrase denoir, you won't solve the worlds problems by removing religion - the best bet for removing religion is to solve the world's problems. Widespread secularism is a emergent property of modernity in the First World, not the other way around.

Yeah, I wanted to respond to that, but you guys seem to have summed it up nicely.

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33. Comment #31823 by Rtambree on April 14, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Good paraphrasing Robert Maynard. I'll second that.

I'll have a go at paraphrasing too...

The less you need God, the less you believe in Him.

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34. Comment #31826 by seforsythe on April 14, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Regarding the discussion of well-offness in Europe vs. America:

Economists use "Purchasing Power Parity"-adjusted GDP/capita to remove disparities among countries. Here is a site that shows the rankings in terms of PPP:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2004rank.html

Another "hard" statistic used to compare distributions of wealth is the Gini Index. The EU has a combined index of 0.31; the US index is 0.45; Scandinavia averages about 0.24. The index is a measure of the equity of any distribution (income, wealth, etc.), with 0.0 being perfectly equitable (flat distribution) and 1.0 being perfectly inequitable (i.e., one person has all the wealth and everyone else has none). The difference is hard to interpret unless one looks at the company that the US keeps: look in https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2172.html
for the Gini indices of most countries. Generally, the countries with indices of .45 or above are not any that I would want to live in.

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35. Comment #31828 by simplemind on April 14, 2007 at 1:45 pm

 avatar3%! a ridiculous suggestian even with a typo that was intended to be 30%. I guess well only really learn how numerous we are when the fence sitters stand up to be counted?

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36. Comment #31829 by John A. Michon on April 14, 2007 at 1:45 pm

GOD IN THE NETHERLANDS 2007

Since 1966 the Social and Cultural Planning Office of the Netherlands [http://www.scp.nl/english/] has sounded at regular intervals the religious feelings of the citizens of that country. Tomorrow 15 April, 2007 the newest report will be made public. The report can be summarized as follows : in the Netherlands belief in God continues to decrease.

Fewer and fewer people attend church and a small minority of citizens believes in a God and in an afterlife. For the 40 percent who still consider themselves believers, on the other hand, their faith is becoming a more significant aspect of their life. At least they acknowledge the role of the church as a 'moral anchor' and a 'source of meaning' in life.

The opinions of a representative sample of 1132 Dutch citizens show a consistent trend compared with the earlier inquiries. Comparing the results from 1966 with the newly collected outcomes, we see that
- atheism (there is no God) increases from 6% in 1966 to 14% in 2006;
- agnostics (existence N/A) increase from 16% in 1966 to 26% in 2006;
- "ietsisme" (something-ism) not measured previously, but 26% in 2006;
- afterlife decreased from 56% in 1966 to 40% in 2006;
- belief in 'heaven' has dropped to 21% in 2006.

Religion has become a 'life style' commodity: sometimes it is fun and sometimes it may offer support or a way of expressing one's feelings. Churches compare with hospitals: its good that we have them but in both cases you do better if you can stay away from them.

Attempts at restoring the old customs won't work. The spiritual -- including 'ietsism', that is the unspecified belief in some higher force - has become a highly personal aspect of life. The established churches will be tolerated if and only if they succeed in being socially meaningful, that is, service-oriented; provided they do so with a minimum of metaphysical ballyhoo.

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37. Comment #31832 by Thor on April 14, 2007 at 1:56 pm

 avatar@denoir(comment #31802):

The two charts that you provide can be misleading: one is in linear and the other in logarithmic scale.

I don't mean to imply that this was intended and I also don't want to insult the intelligence of the readers here - I am sure most of you can read charts.
But the fact of the matter remains that, at least if I try to imagine the UK chart in linear scale, it would maybe not differ as drastically from the US income distribution as some here imply.

However, I admit that's pure speculation on my part, I really don't know.

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38. Comment #31837 by denoir on April 14, 2007 at 2:36 pm

 avatarThor:

The two charts that you provide can be misleading: one is in linear and the other in logarithmic scale.


Doh! I completely missed that - I just took the first pictures I found on google images.

Anyway, here is a better image of the US distribution.
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/580/Images/Poverty_Inequality-18.gif

I also now looked up where the images were taken from and on that same site you can find distributions for a number of countries. Unfortunately the data is nearly a decade old.
http://www.treasury.gov.au/documents/580/HTML/docshell.asp?URL=Poverty_Inequality.asp

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39. Comment #31840 by Karl Christensen on April 14, 2007 at 3:04 pm

"zealous disbelief in God."

The idea that this makes sense to anyone who is atheistic is preposterous! It is belief in not choosing to believe. The arguments in favour of rational thought are taking an irrational turn.

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40. Comment #31842 by MIND_REBEL on April 14, 2007 at 3:22 pm

 avatarExplain Africa's problems then. The only difference is religion and irrationiality. Places like Norways and Sweden are better off because of their secularism and their science education. If people were to focus on removing religion then we would also take away the crime and poverty. Irrationial memes tend to flock together and crime and superstition are just branches off the the greater tree of irrationial thinking called religion.

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41. Comment #31843 by Martin S on April 14, 2007 at 3:26 pm

Muslim atheist


What's a Muslim atheist? Am I a Christian atheist?

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42. Comment #31844 by the great teapot on April 14, 2007 at 3:31 pm

God in the Netherlands

Thanks for posting that John. I have a few Dutch freinds who live in England and they are all religious nutters.(ie all go to church and believe the Bible) I was beginning to fear for the nation. I am pleased to see they are as sane a nation as anyone else.
Regarding the number of atheists quoted for a given country, I have said this a few times before the number is always underestimated due to the popular misconception of the term atheist.
Many people believe that atheist means either someone who is either evil or someone who is stridently anti religious. Few people think of an atheist as being someone who just has no belief in a personal God.
I have many work colleauges whose reason has taken them so far away from religious belief that they would consider this website redundant in the modern age- yet get this-until I mentioned it to them,they have always stated Church of England as their religion simply because it says so on their birth certificate.
In conclusion,to obtain the number of non-believers in a country what we should actually do is not ask people what they believe but simply take the number of regular church goers away from the number of people surveyed.
This gives the number of atheists as 80 to 90 percent. (sorry Spinoza,you are not as exclusive as you thought)

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43. Comment #31852 by Karl Christensen on April 14, 2007 at 4:17 pm

Mr. Onfray argues that atheism faces a "final battle" against "theological hocus-pocus" and must rally its troops. "We can no longer tolerate neutrality and benevolence," he writes in "Traité d'athéologie," or Atheist Manifesto, a best seller in France, Italy and Spain. "The turbulent time we live in suggests that change is at hand and the time has come for a new order."

Identify an 'enemy', gather as many allies as you can, claim to be representing a majority and that you have a solution to the ills of the world. Crush any dissent.

Is history being repeated here?

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44. Comment #31853 by the great teapot on April 14, 2007 at 4:20 pm

the expression "final battle" sounds very ominous.
Wasn't the first world war the war to end all wars.
I think ignoring it might be a better idea.

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45. Comment #31861 by Veronique on April 14, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatar40. Comment #31842 by MIND_REBEL

Think about Africa's history.

Warring tribes trying to hold on to territories with fluctuating land borders. Internecine warfare between tribes, and I do mean internecine.

The push of Islam, almost from the time of Mohammed, from the north with its militant proselytising. Ethiopia resisted, was a healthy, wealthy territory albeit Christian. Look at it now.

The infiltration of the Boers into the south and their subsequent seizing of indigenous land.

The rise of European imperialsim and the inevitable heel-following infestation of missionaries. The continuing disenfranchisement of indigenes.

The slave trade that saw Africans as sub-human, abused, demoralised, in chains and/or murdered.

The rape, pillage and plunder of Africa's natural resources by the imperialists.

Now the fight for supremacy between Christianity and Islam in this poor benighted country.

Desperate, hungry, marginalised, decimated, diseased (mostly western plagues against which the Africans have little resistance), angry, distrustful, a sense of hopelessness, degraded, demoralised ... add your own observations as well. A proselytiser's heaven.

This situation is exactly the favoured scenario for all missionaries.

'Get in there, make them dependent, save them for god (of whatever flavour) and give them spiritual sustenance and subsistence level living standards. Keep them in thrall, indoctrinate all their children in schools that we build. Keep them under our thumb. We are doing the lord's work and we will receive lollies from god when we pass over to that great cornucopia in the sky.'

It sickens me to the core of my being. Sure there's education, laced with religious concepts, but not for all children. Sure there are hospitals, but not for all.

And western appetites have deliberately made monsters of tribal leaders to the detriment of their own people. The inequity is appalling.

I firmly believe that education is the way out of this mire. But not religious education and that is what so many Africans appear to be getting. Some break free, but they are few. 240,000 children die from starvation and disease (I remember the number but not the time frame).

The latest imperial power, the US, is following exactly the same path as all the others that went before with the help of the IMF to enslave these people with debt forever, while the US corporate world waxes fat on the skinny bones of the African peoples.


And this post describes a miniscule view of the history of this poor country.

Wow, that turned into a rant. Sorry everyone.

V

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46. Comment #31866 by Yorker on April 14, 2007 at 6:51 pm

I must say that American religious republicans were the least compassionate people I've ever met anywhere. I remember remarking to my colleagues that I would gladly donate $10 per week to a national health scheme, almost all the Democrats agreed, but no Republicans did. I then made myself popular with them by asking how a sane, unselfish person could vote Republican? I rubbed some salt in by likening Republicans to carnivorous dinosaurs, outdated monsters living in the past whose asteroid had not yet come their way. Their reaction tickled me pink!

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47. Comment #31868 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 7:08 pm

Yorker:
Most Democrats I meet are very compassionate. They compassionately take as much money from me thru big government that they can get their hands on. :-)

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48. Comment #31873 by Yorker on April 14, 2007 at 7:42 pm

47. Comment #31868 by Bremas

The Republicans do it also, they're just more sly about it. When it comes to running the country, there's probably not much to choose between them, just different factions of the same overly-capitalistic party.

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49. Comment #31874 by Bremas on April 14, 2007 at 7:55 pm

Ah, Chomsky again. Sorry, not I. Not sure how you would define capitalism, but I'll take free markets anyday.

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50. Comment #31876 by Bonzai on April 14, 2007 at 8:19 pm

 avatarVeronique,

Thank you for the concise summary of the sorry history of Africa. However I take issue with the charaterization of Africans as "angry, distrustful". You would think that would be the case knowing the betrayal and cruelity that have been inflicted upon them, but they appear to be incredibly forgiving and good nature dispite everything. There is a nobility in Africans that I always find refreshing and astonishing.

In contrast it is the (Arab) muslims who in general feel resentful, defensive and an unending sense of victimhood and self pity. There is a pathological craving for 'respect', as a result every percieved slight to Islam,--such as the Mohammad cartoons,--can touch off a torrent of violence and mayhem. The extremists among them in additional feel the urge to impose Islam on the rest of the world, the ideology of Islamism is being exported around the world with Saudi money.

I think destructive emotions such as resentment and distrust are more of the result of wounded ego than actual grievances, hence it would be naive to blame terrorism on poverty and it was not a big mysterty why the 911 terrorists were all from middle class background (I am not saying that there are no legitimate grivevances against the West; there are many, only that they don't explain Islamic extremism)

The Islamic Caliphate used to be a semi global Empire which spanned through the Middle East and a large part of Africa. Islam, the great vehicle of Arab imperialism since its inception has been reduced to a third world faith since the fall of the Ottomans, the blow to the ego is quite severe. Even for the majority of muslims who have nothing to do with terrorism, there is still strong tendency to look inward and to indulge in fantasies about the superiority of Islam. In contrast, the Africans never feel they are entitled to rule over others.

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