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Saturday, April 14, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Nisbet and Mooney in the WaPo: snake oil for the snake oil salesmen

by PZ Myers, Pharyngula

Reposted from:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/04/nisbet_and_mooney_in_the_wapo.php

PZNisbet and Mooney do it again, with an op-ed in the Washington Post … and I'm afraid they've alienated me yet further. I am convinced now that theirs is not an approach that I could find useful, even if I could puzzle out some useable strategy from it. In the very first sentence, they claim that Richard Dawkins gives "creationist adversaries a boost" — it's the tired old argument that we must pander to religious belief. This is their rationale:

Leave aside for a moment the validity of Dawkins's arguments against religion. The fact remains: The public cannot be expected to differentiate between his advocacy of evolution and his atheism. More than 80 percent of Americans believe in God, after all, and many fear that teaching evolution in our schools could undermine the belief system they consider the foundation of morality (and perhaps even civilization itself). Dawkins not only reinforces and validates such fears -- baseless though they may be -- but lends them an exclamation point.

We agree with Dawkins on evolution and admire his books, so we don't enjoy singling him out. But he stands as a particularly stark example of scientists' failure to explain hot-button issues, such as global warming and evolution, to a wary public.


Good grief, this is bogus beyond belief. Let's pretend: let's say I shut down my blog, Dawkins refuses to lecture on atheism anymore, Dennett retires to a grass shack in the South Pacific, and Sam Harris converts to Mormonism. Furthermore, every scientist in the country shies away completely from ever mentioning religion, except of course for people like Collins and Miller, who continue their "I'm a scientist, and I believe in Jeeezus!" schtick. We'll forget about the odious implications for the freedom of speech for atheists in this suggestion, and just ask whether it would make the slightest difference in accommodating the public to evolution.

The answer is no, except perhaps in the negative sense that the religious would feel freer to push their science-free beliefs on the public, and that some of the sharpest, clearest voices in the argument (I'm not counting mine in that praise) would be silenced. It's not as if the NCSE and ACLU have been pro-atheist organizations, for instance — both are clearly advocates for very specific issues, and are careful to avoid entangling themselves in the anti-religion struggle — but they still get accused of being atheist organizations. We still get the creationists on the ground banking on those fears of the godless. Candy-coating the implications of science has never worked, and never will work.

And it certainly is true that Dawkins puts an exclamation point on godlessness, and good for him. The path we've taken in the past, the cautious avoidance of the scarlet letter of atheism, has not worked. Dawkins represents a different, bolder, more forthright approach — we are staking out a place in the public discourse and openly discussing our concerns, rather than hiding in fear of that old Puritan scowl. We will not go back in the closet.

Even more offensive is the accusation that Dawkins is an example of failure to explain. That is entirely wrong. Dawkins has clearly stated his position, and there isn't any ambiguity there, either in his statements about evolution or atheism. What Nisbet and Mooney are complaining about is not that he has done a poor job of presenting his ideas to the public, but that they and some members of the public are offended by his ideas. I would have been interested if the object of this discussion was to improve our ability to communicate difficult, uncomfortable views to a wary public, but instead these articles have been a call to suppress a subset of those ideas that they don't care for.

If they wanted to impress me or win me over, a more interesting exercise would have been to explain how 'framing' could help us get our message of the virtues of freethought across to that reluctant public. Instead, we get prescriptions to hide away that part of the story, and worse, to hide away the meat of science.

So in today's America, like it or not, those seeking a broader public acceptance of science must rethink their strategies for conveying knowledge. Especially on divisive issues, scientists should package their research to resonate with specific segments of the public. Data dumping -- about, say, the technical details of embryology -- is dull and off-putting to most people.


You know, I'm beginning to feel that this is getting personal, and now they're targeting my own personal interests. Is that all I do, "dump data"? Who just "dumps data"? The details of any science are important and interesting, and should be discussed at an appropriate level, but telling scientists that their work is dull is going to both alienate the people Nisbet and Mooney need to persuade, and affirm anti-intellectual bigotry in the public at large. Thanks, guys. Good framing. "Science is boring".

And the Dawkins-inspired "science vs. religion" way of viewing things alienates those with strong religious convictions. Do scientists really have to portray their knowledge as a threat to the public's beliefs?


YES! YES! YES! Knowledge is a threat to beliefs held in ignorance. What Nisbet and Mooney are advocating, despite their disclaimers, is that we should hide our appreciation of the consequences of science from the public. We know for instance that increasing education in science leads to a loss of faith (in general), and is particularly destructive to literalist religions. Should we lie about that? Sweep it under a rug? Religious people, even those who believe in particularly nutty faiths, are not stupid — they can see through the pretense. If we slap a gag on Richard Dawkins, it won't change a thing, except that the world will know scientists can be devious and dishonest. I do not wish to hide my agenda like an intelligent design creationist, thank you very much.

Can't science and religion just get along? A "science and religion coexistence" message -- conveyed in Sunday sermons by church leaders -- might better convince even many devout Christians that evolution is no real threat to their faith.


No, science and religion cannot get along. They offer mutually contradictory explanations for the world, and it is bizarrely naive to pretend that people who believe that the literal events of Genesis are an account of the original sin of which we must be redeemed by faith in Jesus can accept a scientific explanation of human origins. The 'frame' there is that one side has an account of chance and complexity and an oh-so-awkward affiliation with ancient apes that is based on evidence, and the other side has threats of hellfire if you don't believe in an Eden, a Fall, and a dead god reborn. Evolution is a strong and explicit threat to that faith.

If Nisbet and Mooney think a non-literal religious faith that allows that humans evolved from apes and are apes is going to be acceptable to every church-going Christian in America, they aren't very familiar with what we are combating. Proposing that we can sneak support for science into the public's mind by advocating a lesser heresy than atheism is ludicrously absurd.

Once again, though, what I see in this latest op-ed is vague handwaving bolstered by picking an enemy, those uppity New Atheists, and using them as a goad to get people to support poorly explained "framing", rather than any concrete explanation of how framing can provide a positive method for winning people over to a position. They did not sell framing; this was an article that had nothing to offer except an excuse for complaining about atheists.

Seriously, guys. Love him or hate him, Dawkins has always put up a crystal-clear explanation of his position, whether it's evolution or religion; the framing people have put up a lot of fluff and waffling that never even spells out what framing is. Is "framing" another word for obfuscation, or dissembling, or pandering? That's the only message I'm getting so far. That's probably very poor framing on their part.

The title of the article is "Thanks for the facts. Now sell them." I'm still waiting for an article that actually tells me how to better sell difficult ideas with a technique other than simply gagging all the atheists to appease the mob.

Comments 1 - 50 of 61 |

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1. Comment #31888 by Freelance Scientist on April 14, 2007 at 9:46 pm

 avatarBravo ! Religious feathers are ruffling so loud I can hear them all the way from Australia :)

Other Comments by Freelance Scientist

2. Comment #31890 by MIND_REBEL on April 14, 2007 at 9:49 pm

 avatarPZ is awesome. It's about time that REAL scientists stood up for science, rationiality, and social progress.

Dawkins and Dennett are two of the greatest minds of in the last hundred years and nobody will remember Kenneth Miller or F. Collins. If you're not with us, then your against us. Theism had it's chance-it failed. Now it's our turn to turn the tables and fix all the problems that religion has created.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

3. Comment #31896 by Mr. Mark on April 14, 2007 at 10:12 pm

It's really simple: either the religous gods are strong enough to stand up to any assault made upon them, or their not. It's quite obvious that they're not at all strong.

Scientists need not change their approach. The very fact the the theists are all up in arms proves that the scientists are getting through to the general public.

Other Comments by Mr. Mark

4. Comment #31900 by Janus on April 14, 2007 at 10:42 pm

 avatarYup, PZ rocks. A brilliant and utterly devastating rebuttal.

Other Comments by Janus

5. Comment #31901 by troyreynolds86 on April 14, 2007 at 10:42 pm

The solution is very simple. We are all literate-scientifically, historically, and grammatically-and from these knowledges any one of us can give the public understanding. One does not need a phd behind his or her name to educate. If the scientists are failing to get the message across then maybe we should try. If we are as dedicated to science and rationality as we say, then the effort of writing books, essays or newspaper articles would be well worth the attempt. If we fail we fail, but if never try then we fail in the most horrific way, with our head up our ass. Maybe we will be ignored, but would that be any worse than now?

Other Comments by troyreynolds86

6. Comment #31902 by dthuleen on April 14, 2007 at 10:52 pm

 avatarPZ, that was marvelous.

The American Spectator, a magazine I do not often like to read, has advice for conservatives in this article:

http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=10976

I suggest that the kind of logic the article applies to Lincoln applies to atheists as well: move the center.

Other Comments by dthuleen

7. Comment #31909 by Tim Marsh on April 14, 2007 at 11:27 pm

 avatar
MIND_REBEL: If you're not with us, then your against us. Theism had it's chance-it failed. Now it's our turn to turn the tables and fix all the problems that religion has created.
Your aggressive, absolutist, sectarian thinking is really unbecoming of someone who is supposedly a rationalist and social-progressive.
I worry that your persona here is simply a mean-spirited parody of a confrontational dogmatist, framed in the incompatible paradigm of rational atheism.
You are either a ham-fisted, satirical theist, or a comically childish atheist. Either way, grow up man.

Other Comments by Tim Marsh

8. Comment #31915 by Quine on April 15, 2007 at 12:14 am

 avatarJust keep speaking the truth; don't look back.

Other Comments by Quine

9. Comment #31919 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 12:28 am

 avatarPZ is terrific and utterly without fear or cant.

Hey Karl here's 'snake oil' again. It must be making a comeback!! Yippee beans.

We have talked at length about moderate and extreme xtians on this site. So has RD and Harris in their books.

The article that PZ is lambasting requests that rationalists made similar divisions of moderatism and extremism. Utterly inappropriate and typically slidey of marketers (with apologies to any marketers on this site).

I must say here that I have immense problems with Marketing Gurus. The 'sell' is usually constructed to part people from their hard-earned cash. In this case from their hard-earned knowledge. Wow, what an insult.

The psychology of packaging a concept, product, idea, ideology, religion, capitalism (you can add as many others as you would like) to sucker in the Joneses leaves me unimpressed.

Rational discussion; not a problem. You are on your merits in that arena. If you can't deliver, then it's back to the drawing board.

For god's sake, Charles Simonyi funded and founded the chair for the best exponent of publicly available science that is around. RD was asked by his fellow scientists to publish for the likes of me in the 1970s. That's nearly 40 years ago. He's done extraordinarily well over those years. Bless his cotton socks.

Marketing - I am sure all of us here have been unwilling recipients at one time or another to the 'marketing spiel'.

My cynicism is ever enhanced by the tele-marketers that bedevil my phone line. They are onto "G" at the moment. Yesterday (Saturday here), I had 3 of the buggers attempt to speak to me as the 'owner of the business'. I have learnt to give them short shrift. It is a pernicious trend in this time. And I do know that jobs are in short supply and people are forced into these pretend jobs with the promise of a (seemingly good) commission on each sale (less the costrs of the phone calls, I presume).

Thank you PZ, don't ever, ever give in. I know you won't.

3. Comment #31890 by MIND_REBEL

Methinks you are much younger than I. Keep the passion, hone your skills, temper the delivery, read a lot. Be considered in response, if possible. We all get cross sometimes. That's not really an excuse for ill-considered posts or extreme views that are divisive, especially on these threads.

You may lose your ability to discern and that is not a good look. You have been told to grow up; I think it may be better advice to say, grow out.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

10. Comment #31923 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 12:48 am

 avatarThe only other common garbage that is thrown my daily way, besides theism, is marketing:

Theism is the way to truth?

Marketing is communication?

Nisbet and Mooney have no evidence that their marketing based on appeasement is going to further the acception of evolution.
Appeasers comes in all flavors, and Nisbet and Mooney just served us a (half) Baked Alaska: hot, sexy, fluffy topping covering a cold, hard center of bullsh't.

Other Comments by Logicel

11. Comment #31924 by GodlessHeathen on April 15, 2007 at 12:50 am

 avatar"I do not wish to hide my agenda like an intelligent design creationist, thank you very much."

Hip hip =^.^=

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

12. Comment #31926 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 12:52 am

 avatar11. Comment #31923 by Logicel

Nice one Logicel. See my post above yours.

I will say it here, please turn on the notification button on your profile. I have tried to send you PMs that still sit in my outbox.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

13. Comment #31928 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 12:57 am

 avatarVeronique, how do I turn on my notification button, and what is that exactly in terms of what gets sent where?

Other Comments by Logicel

14. Comment #31932 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 1:12 am

 avatar14. Comment #31928 by Logicel

When I joined this site in December, I think when I set up my profile (go through forums, I think), I clicked on the 'notification that something has been posted and we will email you with that notification' button.

I started with the forum comment/posts that I made. The first notification I got was to do with the 50 book challenge and I assumed it was specifically for me and made a terrible response.
So embarrassing. It is actually an automatic email you receive that tells you that someone has sent you a private message or a response to a forum post on a particular forum that you posted to.

Go to your profile and scroll down to preferences. Click on the notification button. That should do it.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

15. Comment #31933 by Johan on April 15, 2007 at 1:18 am

It's funny how the major point of this article "there is nothing wrong with science but needs to be carefully taught to (in some ways even distorted, I guess) for many Americans to accept it" rather comes across as saying " there is something seriously wrong with more than half the American population, being a deluded bunch that can't accept facts.
Maybe that is not what the authors intended to convey but to my European mind, that's how it reads.

By the way, has anyone seen the film "Jesus Camp" yet? It opens next week in France, where I currently live.

Best,
Johan

Other Comments by Johan

16. Comment #31934 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 1:36 am

 avatar16. Comment #31933 by Johan

You will be horrified and gobsmacked by the Jesus Camp. It is one of the most horrific videos I have seen. Child abuse to the 'n'th degree. You need to see it even though it is so awful. You can watch it on youtube. Can't recall the link - just put jesus camp in the search field and all relating videos will be displayed.

To every American religite apologist, I say that this co-ordinated effort to play American jihadist is the most appalling I have ever seen. Don't tell me that you are a 'moderate'. You allow the springboard of this extremism to develop and grow.

Oh Johan, you won't like this but it is essential viewing.

In anguish
V

Other Comments by Veronique

17. Comment #31937 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 1:46 am

 avatarOk, Veronique, you should have my msg in your PM (Personal Message) box. It seems nothing is necessary to activate the PM box, just that one needs to remember to check it. I found it by clicking on my name, Logicel, and was presented with my profile and the PM box.

Other Comments by Logicel

18. Comment #31939 by stereoroid on April 15, 2007 at 1:54 am

 avatarI fail to see how RD could make his explanations of evolution any simpler without compromising the facts of the matter. If there really are people who are incapable of grasping evolution, bringing them up to speed is a matter for elementary science education, in my opinion.

You can teach any kid anything, but what the WaPo commentators seem to have missed is: if you don't know why you hold a position, it becomes just another irrational belief. They make it sound as if having people "believe" in evolution would be a victory, and all we have to do is explain it better. Sadly if such a "belief" is not founded on solid scientific principles - principles that reveal an open-ended universe of knowledge - such a victory would be hollow.

Other Comments by stereoroid

19. Comment #31940 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 1:54 am

 avatar18. Comment #31937 by Logicel

OK, did you get the two PMs I sent you? I have never had to remember to check, I get a notification in my email which alerts me to click on the link for responses. Otherwise I never think to look at my msg on RD's site.

I'll check now.
V

Other Comments by Veronique

20. Comment #31941 by Jonathan Dore on April 15, 2007 at 2:17 am

Leave aside for a moment the validity of Dawkins's arguments against religion. The fact remains: The public cannot be expected to differentiate between his advocacy of evolution and his atheism. More than 80 percent of Americans believe in God, after all, and many fear that teaching evolution in our schools could undermine the belief system they consider the foundation of morality (and perhaps even civilization itself).


As Johan suggests above, I would have thought an obvious place to start for anyone who wanted to do something about the above percentage would be to point out loudly and repeatedly that, outside the United States, believers tend not to have this problem. The RC Church (hardly a bastion of louche liberalism) has accepted evolution without quibble for about a century; so has the worldwide Anglican Communion, and almost any other mainstream Christian church with pretensions to international status. If this simple fact were repeated and pondered often enough and forcefully enough, perhaps a more significant portion of those 80 per cent would begin to ask themselves what makes them so special that they refuse to admit something that the vast majority of their fellow believers have already long taken on board. By refusing to even acknowledge the issue, people like Nisbet and Mooney implicitly submit to the American Exceptionalist mindset that is so unfortunately characteristic of US Christianity.

Once that mindset is breached, the centre of debate will have shifted (thanks dthuleen) from one direction; then they'll all be a bit closer to the shift that Dawkins, Harris et al. are making from the other side.

Other Comments by Jonathan Dore

21. Comment #31947 by RascoHeldall on April 15, 2007 at 3:18 am

Mr. Mark wrote:

It's really simple: either the religous gods are strong enough to stand up to any assault made upon them, or their not. It's quite obvious that they're not at all strong.


Yeah. Why doesn't their God just reveal Himself and put an end to the argument?

Come to think of it, humanity could really do with the second coming happening right now. What's God waiting for?

Other Comments by RascoHeldall

22. Comment #31950 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 3:30 am

8. Comment #31909 by Tim Marsh

I understand your reasons, I, and I suspect others, sometimes find the comments of MIND_REBEL somewhat wanting. I have never commented negatively as you do, for two reasons:

1. He/she might be a young person still developing.

2. We atheists need to unite, not alienate each other.

I've noticed that MIND_REBEL does not attack anyone here personally, even when attacked! I suggest therefore that we all cut him/her a little slack, allow this person to perhaps learn and gain experience.

Other Comments by Yorker

23. Comment #31962 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 4:04 am

10. Comment #31919 by Veronique

Like you, I found PZ's response pleasing, but I'm starting to refrain from commenting against these silly articles because it's a little boring - heard it all before.

"My cynicism is ever enhanced by the tele-marketers that bedevil my phone line."

Play a little game with them. Pretend interest and ask them to hold a moment, then place a radio playing obnoxious music by your phone then pour yourself a drink or something, they're paying for the call so they won't hold long!

I play games with all these people who annoy me, door-knockers like JW's, Mormons etc. are all welcome visitors. Always invite them in and say that you'll give them 15 mins. to present their case if they give you 15 mins. to present the case for atheism. Most will shy away surprised but I've had a few "take the atheist challenge", it's great fun watching them squirm when you get your turn. Make them sit while you stand, pace back and forth talking loudly in a professorial manner, after only a short time they'll be begging to escape. Hopefully, you'll gain a reputation as a nutter amongst local religites and they won't bother you again. There seems to be a kind of "inter-denominational bush telegraph" operating within these godite factions, it's been a long time since any have visited me!

Now I have to go shopping and finish that book.

Other Comments by Yorker

24. Comment #31965 by Canuck#1 on April 15, 2007 at 4:14 am

 avatarAgain trying to do the impossible - when will people understand there is no middle ground. You are either atheist or chritian there is no middle ground. Each is antagonistic to the other - ying and yang, darkness and light, knowledge and faith, mind or "heart" ...... well anyway you understand what I am saying.

Other Comments by Canuck#1

25. Comment #31967 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 4:30 am

 avatarI've noticed that MIND_REBEL does not attack anyone here personally, even when attacked! I suggest therefore that we all cut him/her a little slack, allow this person to perhaps learn and gain experience.

Good point:-) Great rousing stuff from PZ. I am becoming a veritable evangelist for atheism myself:-)

Oh yes and rtmrambtree is a filthy, verminous unbeleiver (in the trinity of atheism). You must have no discourse with him, yay until the 10th generation, shalt thou oppress and enslave the fruit of his benightened loins.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

26. Comment #31971 by Helian on April 15, 2007 at 4:45 am

And it certainly is true that Dawkins puts an exclamation point on godlessness, and good for him. The path we've taken in the past, the cautious avoidance of the scarlet letter of atheism, has not worked. Dawkins represents a different, bolder, more forthright approach — we are staking out a place in the public discourse and openly discussing our concerns, rather than hiding in fear of that old Puritan scowl. We will not go back in the closet.


PZ has it right. If atheists dare to open their mouths at all they can take it for granted they'll be labeled "zealots" and "militants." All we'll get with sedate, supercilious smiles and the "understanding" of the appeasers will be more emasculated science classes. Unless we push back and get in people's faces and maintain a certain edge, we will marginalize ourselves and accomplish nothing.

Other Comments by Helian

27. Comment #31973 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 4:48 am

 avatar"I've noticed that MIND_REBEL does not attack anyone here personally, even when attacked! I suggest therefore that we all cut him/her a little slack, allow this person to perhaps learn and gain experience."
______

But I also have noticed that he/she seldom if ever replies to the wonderful thought-out responses to her/his staccato barrage of predictably dogmatic comments. Mind_Rebel is dogmatic in her/his atheism, and it is very unpleasant to behold. Dogma sucks. PERIOD.

Other Comments by Logicel

28. Comment #31980 by Rtambree on April 15, 2007 at 5:41 am

26. Comment #31967 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

>rtmrambtree is a filthy, verminous unbeleiver (in the trinity of atheism). You must have no discourse with him, yay until the 10th generation, shalt thou oppress and enslave the fruit of his benightened loins.

Already my followers of holy righteous Dennettite warriors are descending upon your dark blasphemous Saganic cult and the land will run red to the glory of the Prophets of Darwin. This is Sparta and tonight we dine in Oxford!

Other Comments by Rtambree

29. Comment #31985 by Dr Benway on April 15, 2007 at 5:53 am

 avatar
Leave aside for a moment the validity of Dawkins's arguments against religion.


No. I don't think we should. Let's all start there and refuse to move on until this point is settled.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

30. Comment #31987 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 5:59 am

 avatarOK fellow infidels, my latest effort at re-educating the masses. The Ethics of Hell. Post, promote and dsitribute according to taste : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FatTbfGCJVI

Except the scurrilous schismist Rtambree, you are henceforth banned!!! Thats right, Fatwa on your ass!!!

I laugh in the face of your Bearded one. Is he not merely a surrogate for their God? That beard, that fatherly demeanour .... you are the ones that have been misled, seduced by his enticing santa like Godliness. Repent miserable deceivers all!!! Sagan is the third one, not Dennett.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

31. Comment #31989 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 6:18 am

Logicel

In response to my request in defence of MIND_REBEL you said:

"But I also have noticed that he/she seldom if ever replies to the wonderful thought-out responses to her/his staccato barrage of predictably dogmatic comments. Mind_Rebel is dogmatic in her/his atheism, and it is very unpleasant to behold. Dogma sucks. PERIOD."

Normally, I find myself in agreement with your posts but on this occasion I have to say; bollocks!

Firstly, responses to Mind_Rebel are seldom "wonderful" - they don't need to be. I also disagree that dogma sucks, in fact, dogmatism applies to most of us here. Dogma only sucks if it's doggedly held to be true when it's most likely wrong. The common meaning of the word is pertinent to the tenets of church doctrine, but it also means "an established belief". My belief in atheism is very well established so I must therefore label myself dogmatic, I would go so far as to say that dogmatism when correct, is precisely the preferred behavioral mode! The main thing wrong with our friends' comments is that they're occasionally inaccurate, bald, and lacking in background knowledge, enough to berate one for if they try to defend such comments. Mind_Rebel makes no such defense hence the reason for my slack-cutting suggestion, while not expecting general agreement, the fact that you saw fit to further attack him/her, surprised and slightly disappointed me.

Other Comments by Yorker

32. Comment #31990 by Rtambree on April 15, 2007 at 6:24 am

Oh acolytes of the dark Saganic mills, recant now for only the Harris-Dawkins-Dennett triumvirate has the Truth, and through Their Holy Scriptures will you be set free. Banish Sagan and a curse on his Mary Druyan - they are cast out by the Great Prophet Bertrand Russell as Theist-Enablers. We can tolerate no intolerance!! Briancoughlanworldcitizen is leading you down the path of unreason that only Dennett can redeem. It is written. It shall pass. May our holy warriors be blessed.

Other Comments by Rtambree

33. Comment #31991 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 6:35 am

 avatarYorker, If you consider yourself dogmatic in your atheism, then, you disappoint me. A passionate belief based on evidence does not dogma make.

As for my 'attacking' Mind_Rebel, fine, if that is the way you view my opinion. As for the 'wonderful' aspect of the thoughtful replies to Mind_Rebel's narrow-mindedness, wonderful as in the sense that commenters took out time to address the blinkerness of his comments.

Other Comments by Logicel

34. Comment #31993 by BMMcArdle on April 15, 2007 at 6:37 am

I'm dogmatically opposed to dogmatism.

Other Comments by BMMcArdle

35. Comment #31995 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 6:51 am

 avatarWe will never recant!!!! NEVER! Lo, if the sun is extinguished and the earth melts away, our love for the Harris-Dawkins-Sagan entity, triune and triumphant, will never pass.

May the scathing mockery of Dawkins, the implacable logic of Harris and the gentle humour of Sagan verbally eviscerate you, and all your capering demon ilk.

But brother come, I too accept Russel and his teapot, if you will but leave aside this pretender Dennett and embrace Sagan ....


We won't be forced to KILL every man, woman and child that supports you and your band of schemeing heretical heathen humanists!! Repent, recant for Anthroprogenic Global Warming is at hand!!!

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

36. Comment #31996 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 6:52 am

 avatarBriancouglandworldcitizen and Rtambree, thanks for the hilarious running spoof of dogmatic atheists.

Other Comments by Logicel

37. Comment #31999 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 7:13 am

34. Comment #31991 by Logicel

"A passionate belief based on evidence does not dogma make."

According to the dictionary, a passionate belief based on evidence DOES dogma make. You forced me to check; one of the meanings is:

"a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle."

Adding "passionate" does not change the meaning of dogma or allow you to redefine its meaning to suit your own purpose. Sorry if I appear pedantic, but as users of the English language, we have agreed the meaning of words in order to understand each other, personal redefinition is not allowed. I think you must concede this point.

You're clearly not of a mind to help MIND_REBEL or to make any allowances, but your recalcitrance has convinced me that I should perhaps encourage and offer assistance to this person…yes indeed, I shall adopt this posture.

MIND_REBEL

I hope you don't mind my defending you, and perhaps offering future constructive comment.

Other Comments by Yorker

38. Comment #32001 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 7:17 am

Ahh... how I love the smell of confrontation in the afternoon! :) :) :)

Other Comments by Yorker

39. Comment #32004 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 7:33 am

3. Comment #31890 by MIND_REBEL

"PZ is awesome."

I'm sure many here would agree with you.

"It's about time that REAL scientists stood up for science, rationiality, and social progress."

I'm sure most scientists would consider themselves real and they do stand up for science.

"If you're not with us, then your against us"

I know what you mean, your heart's in the right place but in the real world, that statement is seldom true, you should allow for shades of gray.

"Theism had it's chance-it failed"

Yes, you're clearly correct!

"Now it's our turn to turn the tables and fix all the problems that religion has created."

I'd certainly agree that religion has created many problems and like you, I hope we can turn the tables and at least do a better future job than religion has done in the past.

Keep posting my friend!!

Other Comments by Yorker

40. Comment #32007 by PrimeNumbers on April 15, 2007 at 7:56 am

 avatarSo Science leads to Atheism. Good. Perhaps televangelists will dith their atheistic televisions and cameras and go back to preaching direct from the pulpit, but only in daylight because electric lights are also products of atheistic science.

They typically want their cake and to eat it. Accept science and what it leads to, or throw away your computers and iPods and cars and all those products of science.

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41. Comment #32009 by rbergink on April 15, 2007 at 8:02 am

Data dumping -- about, say, the technical details of embryology -- is dull and off-putting to most people.


This is so stupid and so offensive that one wonders why Nisbet and Mooney are to be taken seriously at all. PZ has to be admired for the self control in his response.

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42. Comment #32013 by Lordsuhn on April 15, 2007 at 8:10 am

 avatar
And it certainly is true that Dawkins puts an exclamation point on godlessness, and good for him. The path we've taken in the past, the cautious avoidance of the scarlet letter of atheism, has not worked. Dawkins represents a different, bolder, more forthright approach — we are staking out a place in the public discourse and openly discussing our concerns, rather than hiding in fear of that old Puritan scowl. We will not go back in the closet.

Fantastic, I love this paragraph! It really struck a cord with me.

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43. Comment #32018 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 8:36 am

 avatarYorker, Obviously, you can post whatever you desire as can Mind_Rebel. However, until I see more flesh in Mind_Rebel's comments, I will stick to my guns, and to avoid pedantry regarding dogma, I will say instead the Mind_Rebel's posts reflect a very rigid understanding of atheism, one that I do not support. In addition, Mind_Rebel's not responding to comments which other posters took the time out to write to him, adds to my discomfiture.

Bad cop, over to good cop.

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44. Comment #32024 by mandelstam on April 15, 2007 at 9:20 am

I think that the obvious conclusions of an educated (however that education was acquired) interest in science is atheism. But atheism is nothing. Even the word does not define anything concrete, it is a negation merely. So if you do not see how that can be frightening, and respect that fear, then I think that you lack some aspect of empathy, therefore of humanity. This is the root of the pointless anger that arises in any religion/ science debate & it is this that, clumsily I think, the original article tried to address.

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45. Comment #32028 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 9:35 am

Logicel

This will be my last "good cop" word on this issue, probably to your relief. I have only two things to say.


1. When you were young or perhaps new to a subject, I suspect you would've felt better and learned more from constructive rather than destructive criticism of your thoughts upon it.

2. For various reasons, some people don't fare well in confrontational situations, I'm not surprised therefore that MIND_REBEL doesn't reply to comments that are almost exclusively negative! Not all of us enjoy a confrontational exchange, others of course, thrive on it.:)

I bid you good day and hope your internal resistance is still low enough to allow your cell to hold a full charge! :)

Other Comments by Yorker

46. Comment #32057 by Robert Maynard on April 15, 2007 at 11:38 am

 avatarYorker,
I don't think it's really a distinction between constructive and destructive criticism - most comments I assume Logicel is referring to are better described as corrective.

I happen to know Tim, and his outburst was mostly a result of irritation at the apparent failure of previous instances of corrective criticism to, uh, 'sober' Mind Rebel up.

The growing of any respectable set of beliefs or ideas should always involve scrutiny, and I have often benefitted from being told honestly and promptly when I was completely wrong about something.

I understand he's obviously on the right track, but there are parts of his outlook some of us find ill-formed, and the way to address that kind of thing isn't to pat him on the head and softly say "yes, it is a divisive issue, but you should always allow for shades of gray, dear boy."
It's to respect his potential as a lifelong learner, a "freethinker", enough to say something like "Hey, that's a pretty stupid thing to say! Why do you think that?" and maybe start a conversation about it. Why should anyone who values the power of rational discourse to change minds shy away from confrontation/conversation, when someone else thinks their own mind needs changing?

Anyway, discussing this issue so openly has made me feel like a jerk, so I'll leave it at that.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

47. Comment #32062 by kkant on April 15, 2007 at 12:07 pm

Yorker-- your referenced definition of "dogma" is "a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle." I would submit to you that "settled or established" does not mean "based on evidence." The word "dogma" most certainly does have a very clear and universally applied connotation of "rigid adherence which is unchanging in the face of new evidence." That at least partially implies that dogma is evidence-less belief. Without this connotation, the word "dogma" loses some of its meaning.

Here are some other definitions of dogma that speak to this clear connotation:

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 [gcide]:
"A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or truth; an arbitrary dictum."

From WordNet (r) 2.0 [wn]:
"a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof"

Other Comments by kkant

48. Comment #32066 by Robert Maynard on April 15, 2007 at 12:22 pm

 avatarEDIT: Dang, kkant beat me to it!
------------------
However, Yorker
Re: your defense of dogma - utter bull.
Not one of the meanings of dogma, including the weak-sauce one you cited, define it in relation to evidence. All the more intuitive, and dare I say accurate definitions, identify the role of an arbitrary authority in asserting dogma as "established opinion, belief, or principle".

I'm sure the Pope would agree that dogmatism is defensible "when the dogma is correct"! Because, of course, he 'knows' his dogmas are correct too.
The simple fact is, all dogmas are correct, to the sets that believe them, precisely because they thrive without the need for evidence.
To say that being dogmatically atheist is okay because atheism is presupposed by you to be correct, and other dogmas are not okay because you presume they are incorrect, means precisely nothing the second you describe yourself as unquestioning of atheist "dogma", which insists (like all good dogmas) that all competing dogmas are false!
Aha, you can now say, but I am an atheist because of evidence, not presuppositions.

Well, okay, but if you're including principles and ideas based on evidence under the descriptive umbrella of dogma, rather than some other existing term, like.. oh I don't know, scientific theory, should we really start calling it the Doctrine of Evolution? ..yeah, that's what I thought. :P

Honestly, there are many better words and phrases for describing confidence in an idea, without supporting one so historically indicative of close-minded stupidity as "dogmatic". Dogma, as intuitively understood by most people (ie. the first two definitions we generally see in dictionaries, not the fourth), specifically relates to ideas asserted authoritatively, and presumed true, without precedent, discussion or evidence.

I defy you to describe atheism as such an idea.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

49. Comment #32070 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm

 avatarI have a little something I put together on the subject of Dogma : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqWTgwVx9k

Enjoy:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

50. Comment #32091 by Patrick McArdle on April 15, 2007 at 2:52 pm

What a load of nonsense the WaPo published, and thanks to PZ Meyers for his partial refutation. (The original contained too much patronizing garbage for complete refutation in one brief response.) Worse than talking down to scientists was their belief that one must cosset Americans' irrationality, or "hide one's light under a basket", as the Christians themselves say. The United States was formed as a revolutionary enterprise, which condemned many political beliefs then commonly held in Europe: the need for monarchy, esp. a monarchy aligned with organized religion. When we Americans teach our history to our children, we emphasize just how revolutionary our ideas once were, and how the success of the USA refuted those older ideas forever.

I claim that we Americans will hold true to our revolutionary roots, and will appreciate any challenge to our current beliefs, provided the challengers do so in a strong and unapologetic manner. Every one of our Founding Fathers would have been hung by the monarchists, had our revolution failed; they didn't worry about offending their audience, they wrote an unapologetic Declaration, and addressed it to the entire world! Let us show that same spirit now.

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