Against God2. Comment #32038 by Fire1974 on April 15, 2007 at 10:21 am
Fear IS real. The obvious pilot of religion.3. Comment #32039 by Rtambree on April 15, 2007 at 10:22 am
Many Australians simply don't care about religion - it's not like they're formal atheists, having thought through all the issues, but just that they haven't thought about the issues at all.4. Comment #32048 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 10:36 am
5. Comment #32050 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 10:50 am
But perhaps a confident, evangelising atheism based on reason just doesn't seem reasonable to many people now. "The naive atheist seems to believe that a sophisticated seminar in godlessness is all that is required to eliminate religion, showing a grateful people that they can be liberated from an oppressive and debilitating illusion," writes Alister McGrath in his book, The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World. "What atheists don't get is that people actually like their faith, and find it helpful in structuring their lives, and actually believe it's true." Western culture, he says, has "long since recognised the limitations of reason".
And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real.
6. Comment #32054 by RascoHeldall on April 15, 2007 at 11:05 am
I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.
7. Comment #32058 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 11:51 am
"Fear IS real. The obvious pilot of religion."8. Comment #32059 by bitbutter on April 15, 2007 at 11:52 am
I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.
9. Comment #32060 by kkant on April 15, 2007 at 11:53 am
Rtambree writes:10. Comment #32063 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:13 pm
"Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more'."11. Comment #32064 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:15 pm
"Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more'."12. Comment #32065 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 12:16 pm
Simple. The 'limitation' of reason is that it doesn't seek to tell people what they want to hear.
Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more' (eh. self evidently :)).
Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?
13. Comment #32067 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 12:23 pm
You would have it both ways. The terror of hell is too much for you yet you say the problem with religion makes you feel good. Which is it?
14. Comment #32068 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:34 pm
This week the preacher at the church I go to.15. Comment #32069 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:34 pm
This week the preacher at the church I go to.16. Comment #32071 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Cheshire cat17. Comment #32072 by cangrande on April 15, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Popular atheism is not new — Bertrand Russell's classic Why I Am An Atheist was written half a century ago18. Comment #32074 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 1:03 pm
one thing the church must be eternally thanked for is the fact that the worst moment in a persons life, unless they have had to endure extreme suffering, should be made even worse by the thought that not ony shall they never see their home and their loved ones anymore but they shall now face eternal torture.19. Comment #32083 by Corylus on April 15, 2007 at 2:12 pm
20. Comment #32085 by John Phillips on April 15, 2007 at 2:17 pm
Cheshirecat said "Is it not reasonable to fear. Why should we be protected from it always"21. Comment #32087 by ryanbooker on April 15, 2007 at 2:21 pm
22. Comment #32088 by jf on April 15, 2007 at 2:27 pm
This immodest project has put the high-profile English biologist at the vanguard of what's being called — inevitably — "evangelistic atheism".
23. Comment #32089 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 2:33 pm
why do you go to church?24. Comment #32094 by Spinoza on April 15, 2007 at 3:16 pm
25. Comment #32095 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 3:37 pm
26. Comment #32099 by Bremas on April 15, 2007 at 4:44 pm
How to become the center of attention fast:27. Comment #32107 by WittyReference on April 15, 2007 at 6:49 pm
28. Comment #32113 by panajache69 on April 15, 2007 at 7:48 pm
29. Comment #32119 by GodlessHeathen on April 15, 2007 at 8:08 pm
30. Comment #32128 by ratio on April 15, 2007 at 9:27 pm
If by "reason" people mean the rules of logic, these are really very weak. You need to start with some premises or axioms before anything can be done. If two people share the same axioms they can have a logical exchange and reach a conclusion, even change the other's mind. But if there's no agreement about the premises no progress is possible, even when both sides use impeccable logic. Hence the problem between theists and atheists.31. Comment #32131 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 10:47 pm
32. Comment #32160 by squareroot on April 16, 2007 at 3:12 am
From the article: "In the 2001 census, barely one Australian in 2000 identified as atheist…"33. Comment #32161 by squareroot on April 16, 2007 at 3:19 am
"Dawkins 'can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith,' wrote Marxist critic Terry Eagleton in…"34. Comment #32189 by MrBump on April 16, 2007 at 5:53 am
35. Comment #32193 by Rtambree on April 16, 2007 at 6:18 am
RE: Australian Census. I know people who were non-religious that nevertheless ticked Anglican or Catholic because they thought that if they didn't, the Muslims would get all the religious funding from the government.36. Comment #32198 by nancy2001 on April 16, 2007 at 6:26 am
This article on the "new atheism" reads like almost every other one in the mainstream press. It starts out reasonably objective and informative. But then midway through, it morphs into an idiotic defense of religion. I imagine the newspaper editors insist on this.37. Comment #32275 by phil rimmer on April 16, 2007 at 3:29 pm
38. Comment #32284 by Shuggy on April 16, 2007 at 4:50 pm
Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?
Wasn't the more common term among us atheists (as I understood it) "practicing agnostics"? =P
39. Comment #32285 by Shuggy on April 16, 2007 at 4:52 pm
I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.
Simple. The 'limitation' of reason is that it doesn't seek to tell people what they want to hear.
40. Comment #32287 by Canuck#1 on April 16, 2007 at 5:05 pm
41. Comment #32420 by GodlessAmerican on April 17, 2007 at 3:20 am
"long since recognised the limitations of reason".42. Comment #32432 by relevo on April 17, 2007 at 3:51 am
I think the issue is that secularists have yet to market the preferred alternative to religious ritual. It's not just a matter of proselytizing people like the monotheists have been doing. It's also a matter of making the religious community product within which is the image of being part of something seemingly philanthropically ethical. It's a PR, as well as lack of serious community effort problem that secularists face. The real truth is not that the religious message is verifiably valid in any way honest, but that the religious have historically done a better job spreading their belief culture.43. Comment #34195 by konquererz on April 23, 2007 at 1:37 pm
You have to have been brought up in "fundamantalist Christianity to understand how true this statement is...god answers prayer, eternity is a choice of heaven or hell, Jesus died to save us, he rose again, god is somehow a trinity ...and on and on ...in spite of logic, ridicule, criticsm, insults...the fact they glory in this because the bible tells them this is the way it will be. All of these things are as natural to them as breathing. Their dedication to it is emotional, physical, mental.
1. Comment #32036 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 10:17 am
"And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real."Poppycock!
Problem? What problem? Sane people reject falsehood and embrace truth whether they like it or not.
Other Comments by Yorker