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Sunday, April 15, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Against God

by Thornton McCamish

Reposted from:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/against-god/2007/04/14/1175971410059.html?page=fullpage

ON PALM SUNDAY, Dr John Perkins drove out to the Careforce Church in Mount Evelyn to tell its congregation that everything it believed and held dear about God was, sad to say, mistaken and even dangerous.

It wouldn't be everyone's idea of a fun night out. Finding himself in similar circumstances, Australian arch-atheist Philip Adams once described himself as "a lion thrown into a den of Daniels".

And the scene did appear set for a mauling: the modern community hall-style building can hold 1000 and the debate had sold out within 20 minutes of tickets going on sale.

But there was no blood spilt. The Careforce house band belted out a few numbers, including John Lennon's Imagine ("Imagine there's no heaven, and no religion too …"), and then for nearly 90 minutes a mostly Christian audience listened intently while Christianity and atheism went 10 heartfelt rounds on stage. There was gracious applause at the end.

This slightly odd event is part of much wider phenomenon: the emergence of newly energised atheism centred around Richard Dawkins' book, The God Delusion. An unapologetic and even contemptuous attack on faith, the book has caused a storm in the US where it has been camped on the The New York Times bestseller list for five months.

Dawkins' is just one of at least half a dozen popular books preaching an anti-religious message that have appeared in the past year or so. There are more to come, too. Connoisseurs of the heretical will be salivating at the prospect of Christopher Hitchens' God is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything, which is due in May.

This swelling of atheist literature is a reaction to a worldwide rise in fundamentalist religion. But in kicking back at extremism, the bestselling atheists don't discriminate between mainstream faith and the loony fringe. It's religion itself they object to.

Dawkins hopes to eradicate faith entirely. This immodest project has put the high-profile English biologist at the vanguard of what's being called — inevitably — "evangelistic atheism".

Dawkins has been on the cover of Time magazine. He even appeared on TV show South Park, where he was, as he himself grumblingly described it, "portrayed as a cartoon character buggering a bald transvestite".

Popular atheism is not new — Bertrand Russell's classic Why I Am An Atheist was written half a century ago — but the emphasis on mass conversion to common sense might be.

The "Beyond Belief" forum, at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in California late last year resembled, The New York Times reported, "the founding convention for a political party built on a single plank: in a world dangerously charged with ideology, science needs to take on an evangelical role, vying with religion as teller of the greatest story ever told."

It's also unrepentantly trenchant, eschewing the delicacy conventionally observed in religious discussion. "I'm utterly fed up with the respect that we — all of us, including the secular among us — are brainwashed into bestowing on religion," Dawkins has said. And so say an increasing number of thinkers for whom the fundamental absurdity of all religious belief has become non-negotiable. In a swingeing philippic against Islamic fundamentalism published in the Observer last year, Martin Amis wrote: "Today, in the West, there are no good excuses for religious belief — unless we think that ignorance, reaction and sentimentality are good excuses."

If this seems unnecessarily trenchant, says English philosopher A. C. Grayling, who has contributed his own irreligious tract, Against All Gods (2007), to the book shops, remember that religion started it. "Politeness and restraint have been banished by the confrontational face that faith now turns to the modern world," Grayling writes. "In the face of the growing volume and assertiveness of different religious bodies asking for preferential treatment, secular opinion has hardened."

There were no traces of this rancorous mood at the debate in Mount Evelyn. Careforce senior pastor Dr Allan Meyer warmly congratulated Dr Perkins on having the courage to bring his bad news to the largest Church of Christ congregation in the country. In turn, Dr Perkins apologised in advance for any offence his views might cause. Proceeds from ticket sales went to the Royal Children's Hospital Good Friday appeal.

The debate was an away fixture for the atheists. But then, it's hard to imagine what an atheist home game would look like, since a gathering of Australian atheists wouldn't fill the MCG's southern stand. In the 2001 census, barely one Australian in 2000 identified as atheist, though nearly 15 per cent claimed to have "no religion".

ATHEISM seems to suffer from an odd Australian ambivalence about religion. In her book God Under Howard: The Rise of the Religious Right in Australian Politics, Marion Maddox argues that in Australia's "exceptionally secular culture" religion is still welcome, "but mainly as something we approve of for others, rather than participate in ourselves".

It may be true that fewer Australians attend church than ever, says Dr Carole Cusack, chairwoman of the department of studies in religion at the University of Sydney, but Australians still view being religious positively. "If somebody says they're religious, it means they have principles and morals."

The reverse seems to apply to atheists. "I think if you just say 'I'm an atheist'," says Dr Cusack, "people assume that you despise religion. People somehow think atheism is linked to being derisory."

Or perhaps to being humourless. Some people with no time for God seem to prefer more mischievous alternatives than plain old atheism can offer. In the last census, the number of professed atheists was dwarfed by the more than 70,000 Australians who described their religion as "Jedi", a la Star Wars. The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a parody religion created by American Bobby Henderson, has become a huge hit on the web in just a couple of years, and now offers its own gospel, nifty T-shirts and mock-commandments, the eight "I'd Really Rather You Didn'ts".

Nearly 60,000 copies of Dawkins' book have sold in Australia, but it's hard to say whether it's producing a generation of atheist converts. It does seem to have galvanised existing atheists somewhat. Dawkins can take some credit for the Melbourne Atheist Meet-up Group, which was set up in June last year and now has some 60 members. One of its founders, Andrew Rawlings, an atheist activist, says The God Delusion was "very influential" in the formation of the group.

On Australia Day this year, 10 members of the group established an "atheist presence" outside a Catch the Fire Ministries prayer rally at Festival Hall.

There was a small scuffle when one rally participant tried to knock a copy of The God Delusion out of an atheist's hands, but no one was hurt. Probably no one was converted, either. Most of the Christians, says Rawlings, seemed not so much angered by the atheists as concerned for their souls.

Spreading the word against God has never been a priority for Australia's more established atheist groups. The Atheist Foundation of Australia, which provided Dr John Perkins for the Careforce Church debate, has been in existence for 37 years. Its most important functions, says its president, David Nicholls, are to promote secularism, and to argue that the indoctrination of children with irrational religious ideas is dangerous, and that indoctrinating children into a belief in eternal damnation is actually a form of abuse.

Still, Nicholls has high hopes for the new atheism. "Anyone who reads Sam Harris' The End of Faith and doesn't start questioning their faith really has not got a hold on reality," he says.

Melbourne philosopher Tamas Pataki is soon to add another book to the growing pile of popular atheistic literature. His Against Religion is due out next month, but he has no interest, he says, in being part of "some movement to defeat or repel religion". He too sees the boom in atheist thought as a reaction to the rise of fundamentalism. "But I think what intellectuals find more offensive than Islamic fundamentalism is probably what's happening in George Bush's America, and the influence of the Christian right."

The particular stridency of the new atheism in America probably reflects a stronger sense of embattlement among scientists there — Dawkins' book speaks directly to controversies over stem cell research and teaching creationism in schools — and also to the greater role religion plays in public life.

David Nicholls admits that religion doesn't have nearly the cultural power here as it does in the US. "But, having said that, we now have many parliamentarians expressing religious views in an attempt to be either truthful to themselves or to catch the religious vote which they think is out there. I think it's a very dangerous path that we're treading. A democratic society shouldn't take the risk."

IN AUSTRALIA, the differences between the faithful and non-believers has mostly taken the form of this proxy war over secularism — though, of course, it's not only atheists who consider the intrusion of religion into politics a public nuisance. The main reason atheists turned out at Festival Hall on Australia Day was the fact that the Prime Minister had sent a formal message to the prayer rally, something they strongly objected to.

But the new atheism is about more than defending secular political arrangements: it's about sweeping away all religion with the firm broom of reason, and doing it fast. "Global religions are global tribes," argues John Perkins. "People pretend that there's not religious conflict … There's too many people out there who have access to very powerful weapons whose beliefs are inconsistent with the beliefs of other people with equally powerful weapons."

What atheism believes it offers is the only universal alternative to dangerous unreason. "There seems to be a kind of darkening of the world in many ways," Pataki says. "We're becoming more politically conservative and morally regressive, and at periods like that in the history of civilisation, religion and superstition always come to the fore."

Atheists who see scientific standards of evidence as utterly incompatible with religion look with dismay at the rise not just of fundamentalism, but religion generally: to them, it's as if a long-eradicated disease had returned to afflict the human mind anew. When hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans last year, Sam Harris says, a survey found that 80 per cent of survivors said the events had only strengthened their faith in God.

Harris is astonished by this. Yet maybe what this shows is that a hurricane, like everything else in creation, is a religious Rorschach ink blot: whether or not we divine the hand of God in what we see says more about us than what we're looking at.

Atheists can't leave it at that relativist impasse, though. "The question of truth is important here," Pataki argues. "Is religion true? I think it's not. I think religion is in discord with common sense. Not so much with science but with common sense."

But perhaps a confident, evangelising atheism based on reason just doesn't seem reasonable to many people now. "The naive atheist seems to believe that a sophisticated seminar in godlessness is all that is required to eliminate religion, showing a grateful people that they can be liberated from an oppressive and debilitating illusion," writes Alister McGrath in his book, The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World. "What atheists don't get is that people actually like their faith, and find it helpful in structuring their lives, and actually believe it's true." Western culture, he says, has "long since recognised the limitations of reason".

The stats suggest he might be on to something. The Australian 2001 census showed that mainstream Christian denominations were shrinking; but so was the "no religion" category. Both sides represented at Careforce, atheists and church-goers, are shrinking categories, both losing support to what scholars of religion see as a shift towards a vague, non-committal openness to spirituality.

In this context, atheism's insistence on judging religion by scientific truth alone can seem like an arbitrary definition of terms. From there it's only a short step to indicting atheism for intolerance. Dawkins' "scientistic materialism", concluded this newspaper's review of The God Delusion, is just a "dogmatic form of fundamentalist faith".

It's an old charge, and one that atheists refute outright. But even some secularists wonder what's wrong with the old live and let live idea: lock up the dangerous loony fringe and let everyone else just rub along together.

In The God Delusion, Dawkins argues that heinous acts of religious terrorism should be blamed on "religion itself, not religious extremism — as though that were some kind of terrible perversion of real, decent religion".

Dawkins "can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith," wrote Marxist critic Terry Eagleton in The London Review of Books. "The countless millions who have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history — and this by a self-appointed crusader against bigotry."

For Sam Harris, the challenge to religion depends on what he calls intellectual honesty. "Either the Bible is just an ordinary book, written by mortals, or it isn't," Harris writes in A Letter to a Christian Nation. "Either Christ was divine, or he was not … If the basic tenets of Christianity are true, then there are some very grim surprises in store for non-believers like myself."

Grim indeed. The Pope recently reminded Catholics that unrepentant sinners can still expect eternal damnation. Hell "really exists and is eternal", he told parishioners in Rome, "even if nobody much talks about it any more".

Many of the people who contact the Atheist Foundation are struggling with the psychological residue of religious upbringings, Nicholls says. Especially in the winter months, "we get many people who can't get over the fear of hell, can't escape it. Even though they're atheists."

And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real.

Comments 1 - 43 of 43 |

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1. Comment #32036 by Yorker on April 15, 2007 at 10:17 am

"And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real."

Poppycock!

Problem? What problem? Sane people reject falsehood and embrace truth whether they like it or not.

Other Comments by Yorker

2. Comment #32038 by Fire1974 on April 15, 2007 at 10:21 am

Fear IS real. The obvious pilot of religion.

Other Comments by Fire1974

3. Comment #32039 by Rtambree on April 15, 2007 at 10:22 am

Many Australians simply don't care about religion - it's not like they're formal atheists, having thought through all the issues, but just that they haven't thought about the issues at all.

When asked, a typical response is..."ummm... well I believe in something I suppose".

Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?

When correlated with class, religiosity seems to peak in the middle classes. By contrast, the welfare class, working class and upper classes are either agnostic or uncaring, anaethetising themselves in their separate ways.

The middle class seems to be attracted to the new "wealth theology" of the Pentecostal Hillsong i.e. donate to this church, and He'll reward you in this life with a new house, car, and other stuff."

>just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real.

Huh? Atheists have never denied the existence of religion.

Other Comments by Rtambree

4. Comment #32048 by Logicel on April 15, 2007 at 10:36 am

 avatar"And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real."
____

I am taking this sentence to mean that the author appreciates the difficulty of deconversion, not that atheists are unable to accept the reality of religious beliefs. In general, I thought this article was spot on, doing an adequate job of describing the situation realistically.

Other Comments by Logicel

5. Comment #32050 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 10:50 am


But perhaps a confident, evangelising atheism based on reason just doesn't seem reasonable to many people now. "The naive atheist seems to believe that a sophisticated seminar in godlessness is all that is required to eliminate religion, showing a grateful people that they can be liberated from an oppressive and debilitating illusion," writes Alister McGrath in his book, The Twilight of Atheism: The Rise and Fall of Disbelief in the Modern World. "What atheists don't get is that people actually like their faith, and find it helpful in structuring their lives, and actually believe it's true." Western culture, he says, has "long since recognised the limitations of reason".


I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.


And that's the main problem for atheist evangelisers: just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real.


And that's the main problem for christian evangelisers: just because something is true doesn't mean it's real.

Just because all those atheists(unreal) seem right about the bible, doesn't mean that their criticisms(unreal) are real. Nay, it's the Devil(real), I say, the Devil! Repent or thou shalt be banished into the Lake of Fire(real) along with the Fallen One(TM)!

Other Comments by fonex_86

6. Comment #32054 by RascoHeldall on April 15, 2007 at 11:05 am

I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.


Simple. The 'limitation' of reason is that it doesn't seek to tell people what they want to hear.

Other Comments by RascoHeldall

7. Comment #32058 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 11:51 am

"Fear IS real. The obvious pilot of religion."

Is it not reasonable to fear. Why should we be protected from it always.

Other Comments by cheshirecat

8. Comment #32059 by bitbutter on April 15, 2007 at 11:52 am

 avatar
I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.


Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more' (eh. self evidently :)).

All in all, not serious deficiencies i think.

Other Comments by bitbutter

9. Comment #32060 by kkant on April 15, 2007 at 11:53 am

Rtambree writes:
[[Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?]]

Excellent. I will remember this one. :)

Other Comments by kkant

10. Comment #32063 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:13 pm

"Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more'."


You would have it both ways. The terror of hell is too much for you yet you say the problem with religion makes you feel good. Which is it?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

11. Comment #32064 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:15 pm

"Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more'."


You would have it both ways. The terror of hell is too much for you yet you say the problem with religion is that it gives you comfort. Which is it?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

12. Comment #32065 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 12:16 pm


Simple. The 'limitation' of reason is that it doesn't seek to tell people what they want to hear.


Quite, reason doesn't always lead you to thoughts that make you feel good and apparently reason can't satisfy those who experience a 'yearning for something more' (eh. self evidently :)).


So I guess that puts McGrath "beyond all reason".... =D

This week the preacher at the church I go to (I hesitate to call it "my" church) was seen clutching some book by McGrath and planning to make a sermon based on it next week. I guess I'll just "come down with flu" again...


Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?


Wasn't the more common term among us atheists (as I understood it) "practicing agnostics"? =P

Other Comments by fonex_86

13. Comment #32067 by fonex_86 on April 15, 2007 at 12:23 pm


You would have it both ways. The terror of hell is too much for you yet you say the problem with religion makes you feel good. Which is it?


No, no, no. bitbutter isn't the one who wants it both ways. It's the theists, who are arguably among the best cherrypickers in the world.

Some people are religious exactly because hell is such a terror.

Others are religious because of the prospect of watching their hated ones roasting in said hell.

Still others claim that god wants everyone to be saved, and conveniently ignore the concept of hell so artistically depicted in the bible (and later grotesquely exaggerated by the church).

I could go on and on about theists, but I think this is enough ranting for now.

Other Comments by fonex_86

14. Comment #32068 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:34 pm

This week the preacher at the church I go to.


Why do you go to church?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

15. Comment #32069 by cheshirecat on April 15, 2007 at 12:34 pm

This week the preacher at the church I go to.


Why do you go to church?

Other Comments by cheshirecat

16. Comment #32071 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Cheshire cat

Why do you go to church?"

Perhaps it is for the same reason you frequently post on this website.

Other Comments by the great teapot

17. Comment #32072 by cangrande on April 15, 2007 at 12:56 pm

Popular atheism is not new — Bertrand Russell's classic Why I Am An Atheist was written half a century ago

Bertrand Russell's classic is not called "Why I am an atheist" but "Why I am not a Christian," and it was written in 1927 which would make 'three-quarters of a century ago' a better choice of words.


"Why I am an Atheist" is the book by Madalyn O'Hair.


Odd that something so simple to fact-check wasn't. Well not odd, really, given the seeming requirement that articles about atheism be really dumb.

Other Comments by cangrande

18. Comment #32074 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 1:03 pm

one thing the church must be eternally thanked for is the fact that the worst moment in a persons life, unless they have had to endure extreme suffering, should be made even worse by the thought that not ony shall they never see their home and their loved ones anymore but they shall now face eternal torture.
Way to go church. way to make death even more difficult than it already is. Nice work

Other Comments by the great teapot

19. Comment #32083 by Corylus on April 15, 2007 at 2:12 pm

 avatarCheshire Cat

If you has been paying attention to Fonex's posts you would know that s/he goes to church because s/he lives in country and within a family environment in which no choice is given. You might wish to remember that not all contributors here have the have the luck to be posting from the UK, or are old enough and affluent enough to be able to change their environment.

This brings me to another point.

I asked you a question recently, but it appears that the thread has died on that article and you did not see it. Therefore, I ask again…

You're obviously well read. Your posts are sometimes funny and couched in technically correct English grammar. You don't believe in God, but you do seem to go for the whole 'belief in belief' deal – i.e. liking nice churches and well meaning believers. You know your bible, your theologians and your John Donne, and you read the Telegraph. Plus you do occasionally come across (I'm sure unintentionally!) as a tad pompous and now your recent fury over 'anti-clericalism'…

I am not being mean or sarcastic here, but I really have to ask.

Are you an Anglican vicar?? Maybe trained to be one and became disillusioned?? Please: share!

Frankly, I am beginning to find your posts incomprehensible and I really want to understand.

Thank you.

Other Comments by Corylus

20. Comment #32085 by John Phillips on April 15, 2007 at 2:17 pm

Cheshirecat said "Is it not reasonable to fear. Why should we be protected from it always"

Perfectly reasonable, providing the fear is based on something to be afraid about rather than some imagined hell. For instance, a long time ago, I used to be in the military, and was often in situations where I stood a real chance of being injured or killed. In such circumstances, fear was quite natural as it related to very real possible outcomes. Though even then, if the fear is allowed to be more than a very useful adjunct to heighten awareness and is allowed to take control, the very outcome one might be afraid of has a better chance of coming true, as I witnessed more than once.

The problem with fear, is not fear itself per se, but whether that fear is real and how we react to it. We have a classic case of this in the US since 9/11, as well as other countries, where peoples fears have been manipulated by politicians to reduce their freedoms and give the politician more power with little real discussion whether the steps were necessary or not. Especially when you consider, that however tragic 9/11 was, significantly more people are killed annually in auto accidents or firearm incidents. Thus the fear about being a victim in a 9/11 type attack, while understandable, especially with the media cover they garner, is in actuality, largely irrational.

Religion, plays on this irrational response to fear.

Other Comments by John Phillips

21. Comment #32087 by ryanbooker on April 15, 2007 at 2:21 pm

 avatarFor those puzzling over the last line: It's a comment on the effects of religious indoctrination. Logic and reason can't, at least often don't, instantly banish the psychological results of religious upbringings. That is the meaning of "real" vs the meaning of "true".

As for Australia and Religion. Despite the poll results, Australia is highly secular. At least in practice. Religion is just not important in our daily lives. Politicians are more or less embarrassed to raise it in public discourse. It's liability for them to identify as religious in political discussion. Even someone like Kevin Rudd, who is openly religious outside of politics, does not discuss it and, at least so far, doesn't appear to have let any fundamentalism infect his policy. Unlike our current Health Minister Tony Abbott. A devout and irrational Catholic.

Australian's in general just don't really care. If you don't piss us off we'll more or less leave you alone. Well, unless the monkey in charge of the US wants to invade someone, then our sycophantic little PM will saddle his pony.

Other Comments by ryanbooker

22. Comment #32088 by jf on April 15, 2007 at 2:27 pm

This immodest project has put the high-profile English biologist at the vanguard of what's being called — inevitably — "evangelistic atheism".

You know, it's always struck me as a tad peculiar that religites will never accept the similarities between their own separate faiths (just ask and they will delineate for you exactly how and why they are unique, and everyone else is damned) but this old chestnut keeps cropping up again and again: "Dawkins and Co are just like us, therefore they're no better than us, therefore we're right." At least, that's what it comes down to, and I must wonder why they think that's any kind of argument at all...

Even if we have to accept much on faith (I have neither the time nor training to check out if DNA really is a double helix, for example) it's one thing to accept partially on faith a system of reason (science) which has things like proofs and evidence and (perhaps most importantly) actual real life results, and quite another to accept totally on faith something (religion) which has none of these advantages. I just wish they'd stop this pompous, patronising guffawing and get down to the real arguments. So far, they seem utterly uninterested in doing so.

Other Comments by jf

23. Comment #32089 by the great teapot on April 15, 2007 at 2:33 pm

why do you go to church?

As an atheist all my life I have never gone to church of my own volition.
However i did go to church for 4 years when I was dating a Roman Catholic girlfriend.
(her ex was a priest so she initially wanted me to go to quash rumours)
It was during these visits and actually listening to bible readings (something few others in the church appeared to be doing) that my ambivalence turned into active dislike.
So that could be another reason why he is going to church.

Other Comments by the great teapot

24. Comment #32094 by Spinoza on April 15, 2007 at 3:16 pm

 avatar" 17. Comment #32072 by cangrande on April 15, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Popular atheism is not new — Bertrand Russell's classic Why I Am An Atheist was written half a century ago

Bertrand Russell's classic is not called "Why I am an atheist" but "Why I am not a Christian," and it was written in 1927 which would make 'three-quarters of a century ago' a better choice of words."

GOOD CATCH cangrande, I was just about to post that myself, but scroled down to check whether some other yeoman had caught it himself...

Man... I wish people cared about GETTING THINGS RIGHT. (this is distinguished from caring about what is true, which usually means caring about what one either believes, or wants to be true, the use of a second verb in the sentence makes it much stronger...)

Other Comments by Spinoza

25. Comment #32095 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 3:37 pm

 avatarI would be prepared to make the assumption that a number of people posting here live in situations where they simply cannot disclose to their communities and families that they have let go of belief in religion.

There's another fellow like Fonex with whom I email correspond in Arizona who is in the same position. He can't tell his parents. He just can't. And that's that. I have emailed the link to this site to him. He may find some solace here.

This web site must be a haven for all people who can't come out of the closet for whatever reason. Maybe it's the only place they can feel honest and talk openly.

They need our support.

Having said that, good on John Perkins. He possibly couldn't do it in the US.

The "Beyond Belief" forum, at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in California late last year resembled, The New York Times reported, "the founding convention for a political party built on a single plank: in a world dangerously charged with ideology, science needs to take on an evangelical role, vying with religion as teller of the greatest story ever told."

Trust the NY times to put this spin on the Beyond Belief talks. It says nothing about the incredible amount of information that was presented in that forum.

A well written article, I thought. I'll forgive McCamish's Russell lapse. A good article in a well read paper. Congrats.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

26. Comment #32099 by Bremas on April 15, 2007 at 4:44 pm

How to become the center of attention fast:

At the height of Happy Hour, in a very loud voice, ask who else is an atheist in the bar.

I get the strangest looks, but I haven't been kicked out yet. :-)

Of course I haven't been kicked out for a lot of other things either.

Other Comments by Bremas

27. Comment #32107 by WittyReference on April 15, 2007 at 6:49 pm

 avatar"In the 2001 census, barely one Australian in 2000 identified as atheist, though nearly 15 per cent claimed to have "no religion".
Some people with no time for God seem to prefer more mischievous alternatives than plain old atheism can offer. In the last census, the number of professed atheists was dwarfed by the more than 70,000 Australians who described their religion as "Jedi", a la Star Wars"

hahahaha
This tells you a lot about us Australians. It wasn't like Jedi was a choice on the form. All these people wrote it in themselves just to take the piss.

Unfortunately though there has been a rise in evangelicals lately and some idiot politicians now bringing there beliefs to bear on policy.

Other Comments by WittyReference

28. Comment #32113 by panajache69 on April 15, 2007 at 7:48 pm

 avatar"The countless millions who have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history ..."

Correction: "The countless millions who have unleashed the full fury of their sado-masochistic tendencies on the young, foolish and poor in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah..."

or perhaps: "The countless millions who were berated, brainwashed, tricked, threatened, abused or frightened into devoting their lives selflessly to the service of enriching the mother church in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah ..."

Other Comments by panajache69

29. Comment #32119 by GodlessHeathen on April 15, 2007 at 8:08 pm

 avatar"The countless millions who have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history ..."

BS! Try: "Countless millions no longer need the excuses of religion to do the right thing anymore, their religious ancestors remembered for what they did over (but not excluding) why they did it."

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

30. Comment #32128 by ratio on April 15, 2007 at 9:27 pm

If by "reason" people mean the rules of logic, these are really very weak. You need to start with some premises or axioms before anything can be done. If two people share the same axioms they can have a logical exchange and reach a conclusion, even change the other's mind. But if there's no agreement about the premises no progress is possible, even when both sides use impeccable logic. Hence the problem between theists and atheists.

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31. Comment #32131 by Veronique on April 15, 2007 at 10:47 pm

 avatar27. Comment #32107 by WittyReference

Don't you love it? I didn't realise that there were as many as 70,000 Jedis in the 2001 census. That's brilliant.

I wonder what figures will show on last year's census? I wait with bated breath!

Australians are great at taking the piss. Think of another national broadcaster that would fund The Chaser's War on Everything. It is so utterly irreverent.

There are advantages to living on a big island, with no land-bordered countries and far away from similar ethnicities and cultures.

That means a lot of freedom to develop your own cultural oddities. Taking the piss is good Aussie sport. Everyone seems to indulge sometime. There's a rep. for broadmindedness and congeniality as well. And a healthy distrust of politicians.

I have to agree that the religites are trying to change the flavour of Australia, by worming into politics. Hard ask though, most Aussies don't give the proverbial flying ****.

Might have had something to do with being dumped at the bottom of the world and told to go for it. There's a decently developed BS detector in Aussies that extends to a dislike of authority for authority's sake.

Cheers
V

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32. Comment #32160 by squareroot on April 16, 2007 at 3:12 am

From the article: "In the 2001 census, barely one Australian in 2000 identified as atheist…"

Australia has a lesser proportion of atheists than the USA? Surely shome mishtake!

Oh well, I was living in Australia on the 2006 census day and did my bit. I would call my wife a hell-bound appeaser for ticking "no religion", except for the fact that I've never been able to use the A-word with my parents. It shows how much deference there still is to religion than I can't tell them explicitly that I'm an atheist for fear of upsetting them, even though they know damned well I don't believe any of it. And I know they know because of the furious argument I had with my grandmother outside church on Easter Sunday after my cousin's First Holy Indoctrination, sorry, Communion, after which I stopped going to church.

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33. Comment #32161 by squareroot on April 16, 2007 at 3:19 am

"Dawkins 'can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith,' wrote Marxist critic Terry Eagleton in…"

Whoa there. Did you say "Marxist"? A Marxist critic arguing for human benefit from religious faith? That makes Baby Vladimir Ilyich cry!

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34. Comment #32189 by MrBump on April 16, 2007 at 5:53 am

 avatar'In the 2001 census, barely one Australian in 2000 identified as atheist, though nearly 15 per cent claimed to have "no religion".'

Well derrr, the question was to identify your *religion*, I'm amazed that many Australians called atheism their religion to start with!

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35. Comment #32193 by Rtambree on April 16, 2007 at 6:18 am

RE: Australian Census. I know people who were non-religious that nevertheless ticked Anglican or Catholic because they thought that if they didn't, the Muslims would get all the religious funding from the government.

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36. Comment #32198 by nancy2001 on April 16, 2007 at 6:26 am

This article on the "new atheism" reads like almost every other one in the mainstream press. It starts out reasonably objective and informative. But then midway through, it morphs into an idiotic defense of religion. I imagine the newspaper editors insist on this.

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37. Comment #32275 by phil rimmer on April 16, 2007 at 3:29 pm

 avatarComment #32198 by nancy2001

"It starts out reasonably objective and informative. But then midway through, it morphs into an idiotic defense of religion."

No it doesn't. It merely quotes some McGrath.

"What atheists don't get is that people actually like their faith, and find it helpful in structuring their lives, .."

This is a ball knocked squarely into our court. I feel so frustrated that people in this forum simply don't want to address it.

There are many good answers to this question, none of them involve the supernatural. Why we don't respond with answers to the religites beats me.

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38. Comment #32284 by Shuggy on April 16, 2007 at 4:50 pm

 avatar
Is a there a term for someone who doesn't care if there's a God? Apatheist?

Wasn't the more common term among us atheists (as I understood it) "practicing agnostics"? =P

Shouldn't an apatheist be a NON-practising agnostic?
A practising one would wish they knew.

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39. Comment #32285 by Shuggy on April 16, 2007 at 4:52 pm

 avatar
I wonder what McGrath considers to be the "limitations of reason", because I have absolutely no idea what the **** he's talking about here.

Simple. The 'limitation' of reason is that it doesn't seek to tell people what they want to hear.

I would say the limitations of reason lie in the areas of art and love. A fortune waits for the person who can put those on a rational footing.

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40. Comment #32287 by Canuck#1 on April 16, 2007 at 5:05 pm

 avatar"just because something isn't true doesn't mean it isn't real."
You have to have been brought up in "fundamantalist Christianity to understand how true this statement is...god answers prayer, eternity is a choice of heaven or hell, Jesus died to save us, he rose again, god is somehow a trinity ...and on and on ...in spite of logic, ridicule, criticsm, insults...the fact they glory in this because the bible tells them this is the way it will be. All of these things are as natural to them as breathing. Their dedication to it is emotional, physical, mental. What does atheism offer in comparison... THE TRUTH but none of the above. Choose my Christian friends ..... I know because I opted for the truth and my former friends are praying for me.

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41. Comment #32420 by GodlessAmerican on April 17, 2007 at 3:20 am

"long since recognised the limitations of reason".

So, commonsence and reality are not an option? Of course there are limitations. Only in fantasyland can you deilute yourself with wishful thinking.

There are no limitations on your IMAGINATION and if you keep telling yourself that fantasyland is real you will come to believe it. Alice's Wonderland does'nt exist, so why then would Heaven or Hell?

Recognizing the limitations is part of being true to yourself. I do lie to people so why should I lie to myself?

"just because something isn't true doesn't mean it's not real."

If it isnt TRUE or can not be found to be such, then it it is not real. Santa Clause isnt TRUE nor REAL.

I will take the TRUTH of REALITY over the FANTASY of RELIGION.

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42. Comment #32432 by relevo on April 17, 2007 at 3:51 am

I think the issue is that secularists have yet to market the preferred alternative to religious ritual. It's not just a matter of proselytizing people like the monotheists have been doing. It's also a matter of making the religious community product within which is the image of being part of something seemingly philanthropically ethical. It's a PR, as well as lack of serious community effort problem that secularists face. The real truth is not that the religious message is verifiably valid in any way honest, but that the religious have historically done a better job spreading their belief culture.

It's also that people tend to go with whatever belief tingles them the most. Even recently when some guy crafted a fake dead fairy, and let everyone know of his hoax, there were still people believing the fairy to be real.

The site got 20,000 hits in one day from fairy believers. "Although I've said it's a hoax, people still believe that it's real," said Mr Baines.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/derbyshire/6514283.stm

If it's enjoyable, people are willing to believe it, despite whether it's honest or not. The key is to make actual reality more enjoyable than any arbitrary fantasy reality, so society in general embraces honest scientific practices which result in betterment to the general quality of living. The key is to make a positive inspiring artful message with science, so people become willing to personalize it the way they've been doing with organized religious ritual. That psychological need for happy wellness can be met without resorting to dangerous superstitious antiquated dogmas.

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43. Comment #34195 by konquererz on April 23, 2007 at 1:37 pm

 avatar
You have to have been brought up in "fundamantalist Christianity to understand how true this statement is...god answers prayer, eternity is a choice of heaven or hell, Jesus died to save us, he rose again, god is somehow a trinity ...and on and on ...in spite of logic, ridicule, criticsm, insults...the fact they glory in this because the bible tells them this is the way it will be. All of these things are as natural to them as breathing. Their dedication to it is emotional, physical, mental.


How true this statement is! Unless you grew up like this you never really know what your facing. Its the reason that you can't simply live with these people side by side in harmony. Its the reason that simple well meant and logical discussions go no where, and why the foundations of religion must be broken with a hammer and brushed aside. Fundamentalist christians are the reason that religion will always be a problem and always has been. As long as religion exists there will be the fundys. Dawkins does well by not giving them an inch, not conceding anything, not even a live and let live mentality. Belief in god drives people to extremes and in the end, allows you to speak perfect logical sense to them eye to eye, while their eyes glaze over with a smile and they just stare at you, not hearing any thing. I know this to be true because I was for 24 years, one of these fundys. I had to come to my senses on my own, get debunked in a creation arguement hard core, before I started digging for the "truth" in my own faith, and found the flaws myself. There is not a nice middle ground in the debate with religion, there just isn't room for it.

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