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Irish poll shows parents no longer want to force religion on to children
by National Secular Society
Reposted from:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/irishpollshowsparentsnolongerwan.html
Thanks to Jim Wallis for sending this in.
A new poll in Ireland shows that eighty two per cent of parents intend to let their children choose their own religion rather than force them to join the Catholic Church. Thirty years ago only 7% of parents felt the same way.
The MRBI/RTÉ poll also found that 12% of Irish people no longer believe in God (up from 1% in 1977), and 22% do not think there is an afterlife. Just over half claim they attend mass weekly — in 1977 it was 90 per cent. A majority of modern respondents say they would welcome an atheist or agnostic into their family now. Three decades ago one third of Irish homes would have shut the door to non-believers.
The results of the poll comes as the leader of the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO), John Carr, called for a new approach to the teaching of religion in schools to reflect the changing face of Ireland. He said the new primary school being opened by County Dublin Vocational Education Committee (CDVEC) in September 2008 should be used as a model to explore the idea.
In a radical departure, CDVEC has been approved as patron for a community national school in Diswellstown, Dublin 15, where immigrants make up at least 10 per cent of the fast-growing population. The school will be "faith neutral", said CDVEC chief executive Pat O'Connor, but the detail of how it will work in practice has to be teased out.
Most of the State's 3,300 primary schools are church run — about 97% by the Catholic Church — which, Mr Carr said, clung to the concept of "ethos" to dictate what religious education children were given. He said he respected the right of churches and groups to establish schools, but in the context of a changing Ireland it was time to explore the possibility of a new model of religious education. The sort of issues that needed to be addressed were whether someone from outside would come in to teach, for instance, Islam, or whether teachers would be expected to do it.
Mr Carr said the INTO favoured a broad religious education programme for all schools on, perhaps, four days a week, with the various churches coming in on the fifth day to "add their own stamp", in accordance with parental wishes.
Ireland had become a multilingual, multicultural and multi-faith society but many primary schools gave little or no formal knowledge or understanding of relationships with some Christian and non-Christian religions, he said. "Children in many cases are not afforded the opportunity of exploring the beliefs and practices of other faiths".
Mr Carr said that even within denominational schools, different patterns of religious adherence were emerging, with some parents not wanting their children to participate in religious instruction. "We have to find a new way of addressing the needs of all children within our education system. The State cannot continue indefinitely to build different types of schools to accommodate diversity in every part of Ireland, and the education system has to work out a modern approach to deal with diversity, inclusiveness and respect."
He said the Diswellstown school proposal presented an opportunity to meet the challenges that a changing Ireland posed for parents, policymakers, teachers, school management authorities and pupils.
The Department of Education is about to open consultation with all the education partners to discuss the issues relating to the governance of the Diswellstown school which, for the INTO, includes the employment conditions of teachers.
Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "This is a very small step in the right direction, but it still seems beyond the imagination of most educators in Ireland — even the ones who recognise there are problems with religious influence — that a secular school system that requires pupils to leave their religion (if they have one) at home would be the answer."
Visit the National Secular Society website:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/
http://www.secularism.org.uk/irishpollshowsparentsnolongerwan.html
Thanks to Jim Wallis for sending this in.
A new poll in Ireland shows that eighty two per cent of parents intend to let their children choose their own religion rather than force them to join the Catholic Church. Thirty years ago only 7% of parents felt the same way.
The MRBI/RTÉ poll also found that 12% of Irish people no longer believe in God (up from 1% in 1977), and 22% do not think there is an afterlife. Just over half claim they attend mass weekly — in 1977 it was 90 per cent. A majority of modern respondents say they would welcome an atheist or agnostic into their family now. Three decades ago one third of Irish homes would have shut the door to non-believers.
The results of the poll comes as the leader of the Irish National Teachers Organisation (INTO), John Carr, called for a new approach to the teaching of religion in schools to reflect the changing face of Ireland. He said the new primary school being opened by County Dublin Vocational Education Committee (CDVEC) in September 2008 should be used as a model to explore the idea.
In a radical departure, CDVEC has been approved as patron for a community national school in Diswellstown, Dublin 15, where immigrants make up at least 10 per cent of the fast-growing population. The school will be "faith neutral", said CDVEC chief executive Pat O'Connor, but the detail of how it will work in practice has to be teased out.
Most of the State's 3,300 primary schools are church run — about 97% by the Catholic Church — which, Mr Carr said, clung to the concept of "ethos" to dictate what religious education children were given. He said he respected the right of churches and groups to establish schools, but in the context of a changing Ireland it was time to explore the possibility of a new model of religious education. The sort of issues that needed to be addressed were whether someone from outside would come in to teach, for instance, Islam, or whether teachers would be expected to do it.
Mr Carr said the INTO favoured a broad religious education programme for all schools on, perhaps, four days a week, with the various churches coming in on the fifth day to "add their own stamp", in accordance with parental wishes.
Ireland had become a multilingual, multicultural and multi-faith society but many primary schools gave little or no formal knowledge or understanding of relationships with some Christian and non-Christian religions, he said. "Children in many cases are not afforded the opportunity of exploring the beliefs and practices of other faiths".
Mr Carr said that even within denominational schools, different patterns of religious adherence were emerging, with some parents not wanting their children to participate in religious instruction. "We have to find a new way of addressing the needs of all children within our education system. The State cannot continue indefinitely to build different types of schools to accommodate diversity in every part of Ireland, and the education system has to work out a modern approach to deal with diversity, inclusiveness and respect."
He said the Diswellstown school proposal presented an opportunity to meet the challenges that a changing Ireland posed for parents, policymakers, teachers, school management authorities and pupils.
The Department of Education is about to open consultation with all the education partners to discuss the issues relating to the governance of the Diswellstown school which, for the INTO, includes the employment conditions of teachers.
Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "This is a very small step in the right direction, but it still seems beyond the imagination of most educators in Ireland — even the ones who recognise there are problems with religious influence — that a secular school system that requires pupils to leave their religion (if they have one) at home would be the answer."
Visit the National Secular Society website:
http://www.secularism.org.uk/
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Posted: Monday, April 16, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 41 of 41 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #32289 by AlexBogard on April 16, 2007 at 5:22 pm
I have an old acquaintance who just visited Ireland to "witness" and perform christian skits and the like. I bet he was the reason Irish parents decided against indoctrinating their children.=)
Other Comments by AlexBogard
3. Comment #32292 by GodlessHeathen on April 16, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I used to joke that the best way to make atheists was to get folks into the Catholic church. An acquaintance always took me too seriously and would point to Ireland as proof I was wrong. I think I'll send him this article. =^.^= Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
4. Comment #32293 by Rtambree on April 16, 2007 at 6:04 pm
They tried to teach my baby science...http://www.theonion.com/content/node/44260
Other Comments by Rtambree
5. Comment #32299 by MarcKeys on April 16, 2007 at 6:26 pm
"Wow, very good news. Ireland has been riddled with religious fundamentalism for decades; but now it seems they are improving and making steps in the right direction."Wow you really have no clue my friend. Ireland is one of the thistically most advanced contrys in the world you will find atheism is fucking rampant on our green isle
Other Comments by MarcKeys
6. Comment #32300 by Veronique on April 16, 2007 at 6:55 pm
5. Comment #32299 by MarcKeysYou Irish are a bright and innovative bunch. I wonder how many of Australia's bright, innovative people are from Irish heritage?:-)
Whoops - a lot of you went to the US; I hope they didn't get subsumed.:-)
Seriously, these figures look mighty fine to me and I will post them on my front-of-house blackboard.
What we need are more and more surveys with less time lag between. Mind you, the 30 year time line is what makes these figures look so startling good.
Cheers
V
Other Comments by Veronique
7. Comment #32302 by Convertedchristian on April 16, 2007 at 7:20 pm
"Perhaps America can learn from this - though, of course, they won't."I think that there is good progress. I have to go to chruch with my family here in the southern US. This sunday we went to a class that was going to tell us what the chruch believes. It is a babtist chruch, and while I disagree strongly i did hear a few things I liked. The guy who was giving the class was talking about family babtism. He said some adults want to wait to be babtisted until their children are "saved". What the preacher said that was that waiting for your children to be saved to be babtised would put undue pressure on the children to rush into thier desicion about becoming a christian and they don't want that. He said it should be a choice ther kids should make on thier own without pressure. Of course he also said that they would try to convince the kids to make that choice, they just didn't want to put pressure on them. I thought that was pretty good for a southern babtist chruch.
Other Comments by Convertedchristian
8. Comment #32304 by steveroot on April 16, 2007 at 7:52 pm
When you wrote:It is a babtist chruch
I read "Baptist CRUTCH"!
Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
9. Comment #32305 by Convertedchristian on April 16, 2007 at 7:56 pm
Sorry!! I have a small keyboard and sometimes it is easy to make spelling mistakes. Stupid 12.1 In laptop.Other Comments by Convertedchristian
10. Comment #32306 by steveroot on April 16, 2007 at 8:00 pm
That's OK! It made sense the way I read it. Welcome to the "fold"!Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
11. Comment #32358 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 12:03 am
5. Comment #32299 by MarcKeys: Wow you really have no clue my friend. Ireland is one of the thistically most advanced contrys in the world you will find atheism is fucking rampant on our green isle
Another Irish person here, good good! Oh, and atheism is fucking rampant up here in the North too! ;-)
Other Comments by Luthien
12. Comment #32366 by alfonso on April 17, 2007 at 12:39 am
Rampant atheism? With 97% schools being catholic schools? My arse.Census is showing same data.
Other Comments by alfonso
13. Comment #32368 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 12:42 am
Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said: "This is a very small step in the right direction, but it still seems beyond the imagination of most educators in Ireland – even the ones who recognise there are problems with religious influence – that a secular school system that requires pupils to leave their religion (if they have one) at home would be the answer."________
I agree.
Other Comments by Logicel
14. Comment #32390 by aleprechaunist on April 17, 2007 at 1:45 am
I agree also, Logicel. Eventually it should become blatantly obvious that if you try educating kids about all five bazillion deities, it won't leave much time for maths and PE, and the country will no longer be competitive...One thing though, regarding Irish catholicism... I hope we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and lose our knack for throwing a damn good wake! ;-)
Other Comments by aleprechaunist
15. Comment #32401 by Kevin Ronayne on April 17, 2007 at 2:21 am
From the article:"Just over half claim they attend mass weekly"
This seems very high - maybe half those polled did indeed *claim* to attend mass weekly, but it's a fair bet that *actual* levels of observance are a good deal lower than this, especially in urban areas. It seems that Irish people still have a tendency to want to appear more religious than they actually are.
Other Comments by Kevin Ronayne
16. Comment #32403 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 2:35 am
aleprechaunist, What do you like about Irish wakes? Other Comments by Logicel
17. Comment #32408 by denoir on April 17, 2007 at 2:46 am
This is not strange at all. Ireland has gone from one of the poorest European countries to one of the richest in the last 20 years. They have gone from a weak national social protection (the family and church were expected to help out there) to a social system that works as well if not better than the Scandinavian ones.
Ireland is EU's poster boy that is always used an example of what EU membership can do to a country and the idea is that the new member states will follow the same patter of progress.
Anyway, the equation is pretty simple. When you break the family's hold on the individual, you encourage liberalism. When you break the church's influence you decrease religiosity. When you are socially insecure you don't feel need to hope for interventions from sky gods.
Ireland is an excellent example of how an über religious society can be transformed fairly rapidly into a secular, post-theistic one. Give it another 20-30 years and Ireland will be as non-believing as Sweden. They just need to kick the theistic habit - everything else is in place.
Other Comments by denoir
18. Comment #32421 by pissinintothewind on April 17, 2007 at 3:23 am
The catholic church has lost some of its influence due to the child abuse scandals especially with the young, people are also wealthier and better informed. The invasive influence that the priesthood had over the lives of individuals is on the wane but as with the faith schools in Wales its irrational beliefs will still be promulgated. The signs are good.Other Comments by pissinintothewind
19. Comment #32422 by Hip_Priest on April 17, 2007 at 3:24 am
Rampant atheism? With 97% schools being catholic schools? My arse.
My theory is that there's rampant athiesm because there's 97% catholic schooling. I attended catholic school for two years and, for me at least, nothing has ever ignited such fierce skepticism as a daily dose of the good old superstition and dogma.
Other Comments by Hip_Priest
20. Comment #32426 by aleprechaunist on April 17, 2007 at 3:40 am
Logicel: What do you like about Irish wakes?...just my morbid (and somewhat sarcastic in this instance) sense of humour! Although, you do get to see a lot of extended family that you haven't seen in yonks...
Other Comments by aleprechaunist
21. Comment #32445 by cnewell on April 17, 2007 at 5:04 am
A resident can correct me if I'm wrong but the politicians in Ireland appear more susceptible to the Catholic Church's influence than this survey would suggest for the population as a whole.Thus legislation lags behind the prevalent social mores and large amounts of money are made available to the church virtually on demand e.g. to pay for all the sexual abuse claims.
How long will it be before the politicians realise there are votes to be had, rather than lost, by standing up to the church?
Other Comments by cnewell
22. Comment #32454 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 5:37 am
20. Comment #32426 by aleprechaunist on April 17, 2007 at 3:40 amLogicel: What do you like about Irish wakes?
...just my morbid (and somewhat sarcastic in this instance) sense of humour! Although, you do get to see a lot of extended family that you haven't seen in yonks...
Logicel: Irish wakes are actually pretty interesting and, although religion has been injected into the custom, they are of themselves more positive than this. The main part of the wakes I have been to have been full of people laughing and joking about the good old days, and the things they used to get up to with the person who has just died. They are a chance to celebrate someone's life, and to show the family your support. It's a nice way to be remembered.
Other Comments by Luthien
23. Comment #32460 by Logicel on April 17, 2007 at 5:51 am
Luthien, Irish wakes sound like a great opportunity for storytelling which the Irish can do with the best of them. Now, if only the religious part could be removed. Other Comments by Logicel
24. Comment #32465 by Skeptic Jim on April 17, 2007 at 6:00 am
A resident can correct me if I'm wrong but the politicians in Ireland appear more susceptible to the Catholic Church's influence than this survey would suggest for the population as a whole.
Thus legislation lags behind the prevalent social mores and large amounts of money are made available to the church virtually on demand e.g. to pay for all the sexual abuse claims.
How long will it be before the politicians realise there are votes to be had, rather than lost, by standing up to the church?
No you're dead right. I'm Australian and have been living in Ireland for the past 4.5 years. Ask the Irish and they will deny it becuase they view it as normal/harmless (even the atheists). However, I can't remember the Australian government ever consulting with 'the bishops' before drafting legislation.
Most Irish people I know are catholic in name only. Nobody adheres to the strict doctrine of the catholic church. Even the Taoiseach (equivalent to a prime minister) had a divorce and was living with his new partner out of wedlock despite being a practicing roman catholic.
However, the government has little or no time for non-believers and nor does the media. You'll find an incredible bias in the reporting of any issue even remotely related to religion. When Richard Dawkins does interviews here he has the stupidest and most ignorant questions imaginable thrown at him. It should make any Irish atheist cringe.
Other Comments by Skeptic Jim
25. Comment #32470 by Veronique on April 17, 2007 at 6:09 am
Always loved wakes!!The Irish have been through generations of religious strife. Same as Europe. There comes a time when you just have to give over. The deaths and the angst just don't stack up. Go Ireland. Go Gerry. I even have to say go Paisley!
Bless the lot of you! You are are an inspiration to the rest of the mucky lot. It only took 800 years; that's not bad given the internecine troubles that were killing you all.
Hats off to you. I can't even express my joy at what you have achieved (I hope it doesn't fall apart).
V
Other Comments by Veronique
26. Comment #32517 by chrisslattery on April 17, 2007 at 8:43 am
This is interesting. I always thought that atheists would be a tiny minority in Ireland. After all, 75% identify themselves as Catholics. However, I consulted the latest Census figures and when the population is classified by religion, atheists are the second largest group!Other Comments by chrisslattery
27. Comment #32591 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Thanks Veronique, I really do think things can only improve from here :)...Now we just need to get rid of religious schooling and we are set ;)
Other Comments by Luthien
28. Comment #32592 by FXR on April 17, 2007 at 2:16 pm
I don't think anyone should start celebrating just yet. There are three words to keep in mind when discussing Irish people's attitude to the Vatican: births, deaths and marriages. As much as Irish people will tell you they don't agree with the Catholic church when it comes to BDMs they march like sheep.The report about the school in Diswellstown Dublin 15 above is being taken out of context. The Irish bishops announced they welcomed the move. Why? Because this is a case of damage limitation. They want to be seen to be tolerant when they are anything but. Our government in Ireland is run by Catholics and sees its mission as perpetuating the dominance of the Vatican. The Bishops and the Leader of our little isle have already begun manning the ramparts of little Catholic Ireland. Their catch phrase, repeated as often as possible in press releases and speeches is: vulgarism and secularism. This little word couplet is being hammered home in sound bytes again and again.
Here is another more relevant story of school admissions from Ireland also from Dublin 15 the same area as the one mentioned above.
Because of a shortage of school places the taxpayer funded Vatican run schools are demanding proof of baptism in order for children to be admitted to education.
http://www.atheist.ie/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=247
This story made it on to one news report. They interviewed a black immigrant who may have been a Muslim for all I know. I tried to get the station to follow up which they did but still using the angle of children who've been rejected. The real story is the people who are being coerced into the Catholic Church. That angle is still too hot for a news station to report on.
As for atheists in Ireland a web site for atheists has so far only got two hundred members.
(atheist.ie)
As for the person who mentioned Irish "wakes". I think they may be watching re runs of the Quiet Man or Ryan's Daughter. Funerals in Dublin, at least, are more about who has the latest C Class Mercedes Benz than jolly story telling and snuff.
Other Comments by FXR
29. Comment #32603 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 2:44 pm
As for the person who mentioned Irish "wakes". I think they may be watching re runs of the Quiet Man or Ryan's Daughter. Funerals in Dublin, at least, are more about who has the latest C Class Mercedes Benz than jolly story telling and snuff.
I would hardly consider Dublin to be representative of Irish culture. I'm guessing you may be familiar with the expression "beyond the pale"? You might want to go there some time for a little lookie at what the rest of us are up to.
Other Comments by Luthien
30. Comment #32610 by FXR on April 17, 2007 at 3:12 pm
Dublin (the pale) is by far the most heavily populated part of IrelandI've been to funerals in Wicklow, Donegal, Cork Limerick and Galway and they were no different. I'm talking about Ireland not what goes on in parts of the United Kingdom. If you're still re-enacting scenes from Ryan's Daughter after funerals good luck, it might do something for the tourist trade.
Being in Belfast you're hardly in a position to be talking about "the rest of us". There is no "us", you're one of the Queens Subjects whether you like it or not.
Other Comments by FXR
31. Comment #32615 by IQHQ on April 17, 2007 at 3:36 pm
FAO FXRFirst of all, that was a great post above (comment 28) - I agree wholeheartedly. Nevertheless, I must ask you to explain the sectarian form of nationalism you have espoused in your last post... What's it all about? and where is it coming from ? What is this, Slugger O'Toole? Isn't this website supposed to be a "clear-thinking oasis"? lol . . .
You may want to check the Constitution of the Irish Republic, namely articles 2+3; whilst the Good Friday Agreement forced the Dublin government to amend those articles, they still provide for anyone born on the Island of Ireland to hold Irish citizenship. I, myself, live in Belfast, though I have exercised my lawful right to hold an Irish passport, and I do so proudly. Is that ok with you?
Now for this "them and us" talk... I recall a line from Ryszard Kapuscinski in "Shah of Shahs":
"What should one write to ruin an adversary? The best thing is to prove that he is not one of us - the stranger, alien, foreigner. To this end we create the category of the true family. We here, you and I, the authorities, are a true family. We live in unity, among our own kind. We have the same roof over our heads, we sit at the same table, we know how to get along with each other, how to help each other out. Unfortunately, we are not alone".
Other Comments by IQHQ
32. Comment #32617 by IQHQ on April 17, 2007 at 3:43 pm
Also, in relation to "Irish Wakes", let me settle the issue for you with some cold hard facts from my experience:I have never known someone to die in Ireland and not have a wake in their honour. Ever.
Other Comments by IQHQ
33. Comment #32619 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Dublin (the pale) is by far the most heavily populated part of Ireland
I've been to funerals in Wicklow, Donegal, Cork Limerick and Galway and they were no different. I'm talking about Ireland not what goes on in parts of the United Kingdom. If you're still re-enacting scenes from Ryan's Daughter after funerals good luck, it might do something for the tourist trade.
Being in Belfast you're hardly in a position to be talking about "the rest of us". There is no "us", you're one of the Queens Subjects whether you like it or not.
Miaow! I guess that's me put in my place ;)
You sure do go to a lot of funerals...
Other Comments by Luthien
34. Comment #32622 by FXR on April 17, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Sorry that was a bit over the top. The point is however when people speak of things in Ireland they generally mean Ireland as in the south.
This rosy Emerald Isle bs is somewhere left in the dust of the Celtic tiger. I've been to lots of funerals down here. I'm going to one in the morning and waiting for news of an impending one.
I can assure you, what reg car one is driving and what property one owns overseas will be the two most popular topics of the day. No one will be passing snuff and telling stories of long ago when the fairies stole the milk from the cow.
I'm glad you have an Irish passport, you'll never know what I went through trying to get you one.
But no matter what happens Ulster will never be a part of the republic. Not as long as schools turn out protestant children and catholic children.
Other Comments by FXR
35. Comment #32623 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 3:52 pm
IQHQ, nice to see another person living in (I'm not going to assume you are from) Belfast posting on this site (I thought I might be the only one for a while there).I hate the term "nationalist", it always seemed to me to have facist connotations.
Other Comments by Luthien
36. Comment #32625 by Luthien on April 17, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I can assure you, what reg car one is driving and what property one owns overseas will be the two most popular topics of the day. No one will be passing snuff and telling stories of long ago when the fairies stole the milk from the cow.
Don't kid yourself, any "fairies stole the milk" back in the day were probably designed to show off how good your herd was (and I'll bet all the best horses would have been tethered out front too). :-P
But no matter what happens Ulster will never be a part of the republic.
What county is Donegal in?
Other Comments by Luthien
37. Comment #32753 by slummingangel on April 18, 2007 at 7:06 am
"Rampant atheism? With 97% schools being catholic schools?"let's see when the majority of schools were built in ireland they were built on church lands so they are catholic church owned. as it is 97% catholic schools irish parents don't have much choice in what religion the school they send their kids to. i went to a catholic school and haven't believed since before confirmation just goes to show if you go through a catholic school doesn't mean you'll come out catholic
Other Comments by slummingangel
38. Comment #32825 by John A. Michon on April 18, 2007 at 11:25 am
Posted earlier in a different threadComment #31829 by John A. Michon on April 14, 2007 at 1:45 pm
GOD IN THE NETHERLANDS 2007
Since 1966 the Social and Cultural Planning Office of the Netherlands [http://www.scp.nl/english/] has sounded at regular intervals the religious feelings of the citizens of that country. Tomorrow 15 April, 2007 the newest report will be made public. The report can be summarized as follows : in the Netherlands belief in God continues to decrease.
Fewer and fewer people attend church and a small minority of citizens believes in a God and in an afterlife. For the 40 percent who still consider themselves believers, on the other hand, their faith is becoming a more significant aspect of their life. At least they acknowledge the role of the church as a 'moral anchor' and a 'source of meaning' in life.
The opinions of a representative sample of 1132 Dutch citizens show a consistent trend compared with the earlier inquiries. Comparing the results from 1966 with the newly collected outcomes, we see that
- atheism (there is no God) increases from 6% in 1966 to 14% in 2006;
- agnostics (existence N/A) increase from 16% in 1966 to 26% in 2006;
- "ietsisme" (something-ism) not measured previously, but 26% in 2006;
- afterlife decreased from 56% in 1966 to 40% in 2006;
- belief in 'heaven' has dropped to 21% in 2006.
Religion has become a 'life style' commodity: sometimes it is fun and sometimes it may offer support or a way of expressing one's feelings. Churches compare with hospitals: its good that we have them but in both cases you do better if you can stay away from them.
Attempts at restoring the old customs won't work. The spiritual -- including 'ietsism', that is the unspecified belief in some higher force - has become a highly personal aspect of life. The established churches will be tolerated if and only if they succeed in being socially meaningful, that is, service-oriented; provided they do so with a minimum of metaphysical ballyhoo.
I do not to wish to engage in double-posting, but in this case the data from Ireland invite a comparison with these recent Dutch findings. It seems the Irish are catching up on their worldviews with as much vigour as they succeeded in quickly becoming one of the strongest member countries of the EU, economically speaking, having lagged behind for so long.
Other Comments by John A. Michon
39. Comment #33903 by shh on April 22, 2007 at 3:12 pm
I live a few minutes from where this school's being set up, and my local TD (Irish equivalent of an MP) Joe Higgins is a former aspiring clergyman, now openly atheist, and has been for about ages, ten years anyway.Funnily enough, atheist or not, he's one of the best liked politicians in the country, and as far as I know, no-ones come close to beating him in an election in the ten years since I've been voting, probably more.
Other Comments by shh
40. Comment #33915 by shh on April 22, 2007 at 4:18 pm
...continuing the wake thing, I've never been to a funeral that didn't have a wake either, and I have to say I resent the notion that we're all either living in Darby o'Gill land, or else using funerals as an excuse to show off our possesions.All those I've been to were celebrations of those who'd died, and were (and I know it sounds funny when you're talking about a funeral) like parties, religion was left in the church, and friends and family have a get together.
No snuff, no fairy stories, and certainly no checking each others cars out.
And it doesn't mean we're backwards either.
Other Comments by shh
41. Comment #34139 by Cormac on April 23, 2007 at 10:27 am
Hi All,One thing that always strikes me people assume that the pope has absolute control over all "catholics" worldwide.
I'm an atheist, and I've grown up in Ireland. Ireland has this reputation as being a benighted Catholic wasteland.
First of all, even during the darkest period of catholicism in Ireland, (30's to the 60's) most catholics wouldn't really have understood the full extent of their obligations as catholics. the mass and most church sacraments were "celebrated" in latin. Most people woulnd't have had a notion what they were chanting. The current pope and the last pope both stated that if a person doesn't submit to 100% of the dogma of the church, then they are not catholic. Therefore, most Irish "catholics" were not catholic.
Secondly, the really fundamental catholicism arrived in Ireland after the repeal of the ban on catholicism in the mid 1800's after Daniel O'Connell's campaigns. What the people didn't know was that the church and the British government had cooked up an agreement whereby in contrast to the previous Irish liberal flavour of catholicism, a new, roman, repressive form of catholicism would be implemented. Furthermore, the church committed to supporting the British state in Ireland. This can be clearly seen in the church policy of excommunicating rebels regularly and often.
Most people don't know that Dublin had more prostitutes per capita in James Joyce's time (early 1900's) than any other city in the British Empire. This reduced somewhat with the disappearance of the British military, but has continued right up to today. If you're not at work do a search on this venerable industry, and you'll see it is still alive and kicking. Read Joyce's "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man". It has very interesting depictions of him going from a sodality (lunatic Christian self-hatred reinforcement "voluntary" group) to a prostitute with a minimum of conflict in his head.
Rebel Irish consistently rejected the church. The reason for the rise of the church would seem to be largely due to the civil war in the 20's. The two sides weren't all that different in policies and beliefs, and so the church held somewhat of a casting vote. The church then extended its control over time until the people forced it back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s.
I have mostly been an atheist since I was a child, although I didn't really know it. I remember standing in my first communion thinking it was all a load of codswallop. At my confirmation I thought it was a disgusting way to take advantage of children. I went through a period when I was terrified that I might get the "call" and become a priest.
You'll mostly meet people here who "believe in something", who might describe themselves as Catholic, while still rejecting many key articles of dogma. Contraception, divorce, confession, mortal sins, hell, purgatory, the devil, and many other articles of catholic dogma would be readily laughed at by many supposed "Catholics".
Wakes are a tradition that go back into the mists of history. I've never been to the kind of wake described above, where people compare cars etc. My granny's wake went on for four days. Long poetic eulogies were written and recited in her honour. Wakes are a brilliant social ritual that have no dependence whatsoever on religion. In fact the church hated them, as the priest had no role at a wake, and they were considered a pagan activity. Wakes allow family and friends to put time aside to honour and to remember the life and times shared with the dead person. It is an effective help to the bereaved.
In relation to religion in Ireland, the biggest problem is the fact that religion is embedded in schools. The sooner we completely secularise education the better. I'll post more on this soon.
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1. Comment #32288 by James Carroll on April 16, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Wow, very good news. Ireland has been riddled with religious fundamentalism for decades; but now it seems they are improving and making steps in the right direction.Perhaps America can learn from this - though, of course, they won't.
Also, the article forgot to close italics. So yah, just thought I'd let you know about that.
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