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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document Medicine without Evolution Make Sense?

by Catriona J. MacCallum, PLoS Biology

Reposted from:
http://biology.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.0050112

Citation: MacCallum CJ (2007) Does Medicine without Evolution Make Sense? PLoS Biol 5(4): e112 doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.0050112

Published: April 17, 2007

Copyright: © 2007 Catriona J. MacCallum. This is an open-access article distributed under the terms of the Creative Commons Attribution License, which permits unrestricted use, distribution, and reproduction in any medium, provided the original author and source are credited.

Catriona J. MacCallum is Senior Editor at PLoS Biology. E-mail: cmaccallum@plos.org

It is curious that Charles Darwin, perhaps medicine's most famous dropout, provided the impetus for a subject that figures so rarely in medical education. Indeed, even the iconic textbook example of evolution—antibiotic resistance—is rarely described as "evolution" in relevant papers published in medical journals [1]. Despite potentially valid reasons for this oversight (e.g., that authors of papers in medical journals would regard the term as too general), it propagates into the popular press when those papers are reported on, feeding the wider perception of evolution's irrelevance in general, and to medicine in particular [1]. Yet an understanding of how natural selection shapes vulnerability to disease can provide fundamental insights into medicine and health and is no less relevant than an understanding of physiology or biochemistry.

One reason that evolution doesn't figure prominently in the medical community is that although it makes sense to have evolution taught as part of medicine, that doesn't make it essential. As explained at a meeting on evolution and medicine I recently attended in York, United Kingdom (the Society for the Study of Human Biology and the Biosocial Society's 2006 symposium, "Medicine and Evolution"), medicine is primarily focused on problem-solving and proximate causation, and ultimate explanations can seem irrelevant to clinical practice. Crudely put, does a mechanic need to understand the origins, history, and technological advances that have gone into the modern motor vehicle in order to fix it?

Randolph Nesse (University of Michigan) and colleagues think otherwise [2], and have been campaigning for evolution to be recognized and taught as a basic science to all medical students (see also the Evolution and Medicine Network, http://www.evolutionandmedicine.org). It has been more than 10 years since he and George Williams published their classic book Why We Get Sick: The New Science of Darwinian Medicine [3]. Other landmark texts linking evolution to health have been written since then, with new editions on the way [4, 5, 6], and the research field is blossoming. Still, as Nesse mentioned at the start of the York meeting, there are only a handful of medical schools in the United States and in the United Kingdom with an evolutionary biologist listed as such on the faculty.

The most obvious examples of evolutionary biology's importance to medical understanding are related to infectious disease [7]. As Jon Laman (Erasmus University, The Netherlands) pointed out at the meeting, the immune system provides the perfect platform to explain the medical relevance of the exquisite evolutionary relationships between pathogens and their hosts. Understanding how virulence evolves, for example, can help predict the potential, sometimes counterintuitive (and controversial) negative consequences of imperfect vaccination [8, 9]. But evolution can also tell us that the origin of HIV was precipitated by a jump across the primate species barrier [10] and enables us to predict the imminent arrival of avian flu and the mutations most likely to be responsible for that evolutionary leap from birds to humans [11]. Where epidemiological and population genetic processes occur on the same time scale, the emerging field of "phylodyamics" can also inform us about the timing and progression of pathogen adaptation more generally [12].

The relevance of evolution to medicine is, however, much broader. Participants at the York meeting discussed not only how vulnerability to cancer is an inevitable but unfortunate consequence of imperfect human engineering and natural selection (Mel Greaves, Institute of Cancer Research, UK), but how life history theory can potentially explain patterns of pregnancy loss (Virginia Vitzthum, Indiana University), how a comparative approach applied to different human cultures and different primates can improve rates of breastfeeding (Helen Ball, University of Durham), whether clinical depression has an adaptive origin (Lewis Wolpert, University College London), and if suicide attempts are really just evolutionary bargaining chips in intense social disputes (Ed Hagen, Humboldt University).

As with any emerging field, ideas change and the science is challenged. The thrifty gene concept [13]—that some populations (e.g., from Polynesia) are particularly susceptible to type 2 diabetes and heart disease because of past selection pressure specifically during times of famine—no longer enjoys the support it once had [14]. Tessa Pollard (University of Durham, UK) explained that the so-called Syndrome X is now considered to be the result of more general exposure to a rapid change in lifestyle as Western society encroached on these populations during the mid-20th century. The relationship between changing environment, diet, and susceptibility to disease, however, is also far from clear. Many diet-related conditions that typify industrialized populations—e.g., obesity, hypertension, and tooth decay—have been explained as resulting from an evolutionary mismatch between our over-refined, fat-filled contemporary diet and the environment to which humans were once ideally adapted. Sarah Elton (Hull York Medical School, UK) cautioned that while this analogy (the "environment of evolutionary adaptedness") has been useful as a research tool and has led to public health campaigns for better diets (more seeds, nuts, fish oil, etc.), recreating such a typical "Stone Age diet" as a benchmark can be misleading. Human ecology in the past was at least as variable as human (and other primate) ecology is today.

Surprisingly, an evolutionary framework to study human variation can be seen as counterproductive. George Ellison (St. George's Medical School, UK) provided an example, although not concerning evolutionary medicine, about a statistically flawed study leading to spurious conclusions about regional variation in IQ (which I won't promulgate here). However, bad papers are published in all subjects and are a failure of scientists and the peer-review system, not the science. These should not provide an excuse to dismiss the relevance of evolution to medicine (or to any other life science). Even at a very basic level, medical students can draw insights from evolution they cannot obtain from other core sciences on their course. Paul O'Higgins (Hull York Medical School) noted that it is much easier for medics to learn the nerves involved in the brachial plexus (the nerves supplying the arm) if they first understand the origin of the pentadactyl limb.

It is not the case, however, that all clinicians fail to see the relevance of evolution. Gillian Bentley (now at University of Durham) conducted a series of interviews with leading biologists and clinicians when she was based at Imperial College London. What was surprising was not the positive endorsement of evolution by the geneticists and evolutionary biologists but the enthusiasm of practicing medical doctors for the topic, whether involved in the active birth movement or dealing with major trauma in intensive care. Indeed, several local clinicians attended the York meeting and helped lead the discussions.

Ironically, the hardest task in adding evolutionary/Darwinian medicine to medical curricula may well be soliciting support from medical students. Although Paul O'Higgins thought a comparison of the brachial plexus to the pentadactyl limb was helpful, not all his students agreed—complaints were lodged that he was forcing evolution on them. That lack of support was also reflected in the participation of only three medical students at the York meeting (albeit enthusiastic ones), despite being widely publicized. It is not clear whether this is because medical students are more overburdened than most or because of a more deep-rooted resistance to the subject, reflecting wider political and religious prejudice against evolution. But evolutionary medicine isn't and shouldn't be controversial, and the best way to challenge prejudice is through education. As the oft-quoted Theodosius Dobzhansky wrote in 1973, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" [15]. The time has clearly come for medicine to explicitly integrate evolutionary biology into its theoretical and practical underpinnings The medical students of Charles Darwin's day did not have the advantage of such a powerful framework to inform their thinking; we shouldn't deprive today's budding medical talent of the potential insights to be gained at the intersection of these two great disciplines.

It was on a short-cut through the hospital kitchens that Albert was first approached by a member of the Antibiotic Resistance. Image: Nick D. Kim


Acknowledgments


I would like to thank Sarah Elton for inviting me to attend the meeting in York, and Sarah Elton, Randolph Nesse, and Paul O'Higgins for comments on this article.

References


  1. Antonovics J, Abbate JL, Baker CH, Daley D, Hood ME, et al. (2007) Evolution by any other name: Antibiotic resistance and avoidance of the E-word. PLoS Biol 5: e30 doi: 10.1371/journal.pbio.0050030. Find this article online


  2. Nesse RM, Stearns SC, Omenn GS (2006) Medicine needs evolution. Science 311: 1071. Find this article online


  3. Nesse RM, Williams GC (1994) Why we get sick: The new science of Darwinian medicine New York: Vintage Books. 290—p p.


  4. Ewald P (1994) Evolution of infectious disease Oxford: Oxford University Press. 298—p p.


  5. Stearns SC, editor (1998) Evolution in health and disease Oxford: Oxford University Press. 315—p p.


  6. Trevathan WR, Smith EO, McKenna JJ, editors (1999) Evolutionary medicine Oxford: Oxford University Press. 480—p p.


  7. Frank SA (2002) Immunology and evolution of infectious disease Princeton (New Jersey): Princeton University Press. 348—p p.


  8. Gandon S, Mackinnon MJ, Nee S, Read AF (2001) Imperfect vaccines and the evolution of pathogen virulence. Nature 414: 751—756. Find this article online


  9. Mackinnon MJ, Read AF (2004) Immunity promotes virulence evolution in a malaria model. PLoS Biol 2: e230 doi: 10.1371/journal.pbio.0020230. Find this article online


  10. Keele BF, Van Heuverswyn F, Li Y, Bailes E, Takehisa J, et al. (2006) Chimpanzee reservoirs of pandemic and nonpandemic HIV-1. Science 313: 523—526. Find this article online


  11. Nicholls H (2006) Pandemic influenza: The inside story. PLoS Biol 4: e50 doi: 10.1371/journal.pbio.0040050. Find this article online


  12. Grenfell BT, Pybus OG, Gog JR, Wood JL, Daly JM, et al. (2004) Unifying the epidemiological and evolutionary dynamics of pathogens. Science 303: 327—303. Find this article online


  13. Neel JV (1962) Diabetes mellitus: A "thrifty" genotype rendered detrimental by "progress"? Am J Hum Genet 14: 353. Find this article online


  14. Lazar MA (2005) How obesity causes diabetes: Not a tall tale. Science 307: 373—375. Find this article online


  15. Dobzhansky T (1973) Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. Am Biol Teach 35: 125—129. Find this article online

    Comments 1 - 41 of 41 |

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    1. Comment #32677 by Nails on April 18, 2007 at 2:02 am

     avatarMaybe it is through such a basic lack of evolutionary knowledge in the medical community that we have an antibiotic reistance problem.
    And it is about time this was addressed, drug companies are now looking at how genetic differences effect the outcome of treatment.

    Other Comments by Nails

    2. Comment #32683 by Zappi on April 18, 2007 at 2:40 am

    Although Paul O'Higgins thought a comparison of the brachial plexus to the pentadactyl limb was helpful, not all his students agreed—complaints were lodged that he was forcing evolution on them. That lack of support was also reflected in the participation of only three medical students at the York meeting (albeit enthusiastic ones), despite being widely publicized. It is not clear whether this is because medical students are more overburdened than most or because of a more deep-rooted resistance to the subject, reflecting wider political and religious prejudice against evolution.

    This is so deeply troubling that deserves further attention. Is there really a significant resistance to the subject among medical students?

    Other Comments by Zappi

    3. Comment #32695 by jeepyjay on April 18, 2007 at 3:37 am

     avatarZappi asks: "Is there really a significant resistance to the subject among medical students?"

    This is very definitely a problem. Particularly as many medical students come from a Muslim background. Here's a couple of recent articles:

    http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/news/story/0,,1714171,00.html

    http://education.independent.co.uk/schools/article485814.ece

    Some universities in the UK are having to introduce special courses for new students.

    Other Comments by jeepyjay

    4. Comment #32707 by Deimos on April 18, 2007 at 4:17 am

    ***Edit by OBC reason; inappropriate comments***

    Other Comments by Deimos

    5. Comment #32709 by Yorker on April 18, 2007 at 4:19 am

    "Crudely put, does a mechanic need to understand the origins, history, and technological advances that have gone into the modern motor vehicle in order to fix it?"

    No, a lowly mechanic does not, but he would be a better mechanic if he did!

    There is no subject I can think of where historical and developmental information is not of prime importance, more so I suspect, in medicine. As for the poor students who felt evolution was being forced upon them, they should be told to study a simpler theological course of whatever flavour they desire. How can anyone against evolution want to be a doctor in the first place? To me, this indicates a person of doubtful reasoning capacity into whose hands I would not want to place my life!

    Now I'm worried, must we interview surgeons about to operate upon us to verify they won't prematurely give up and leave it in "God's hands"? Surely the way forward is to tell medical students that knowledge and understanding of evolution will be expected of those wishing to be doctors.

    Edited.

    Excuse my blue test, I prefer it to the blockquote tags, they take up too much space, seems wasteful to me. I'd advise commonality if anyone else likes it, otherwise we might end up with a technicolor nightmare!

    Other Comments by Yorker

    6. Comment #32710 by Freelance Scientist on April 18, 2007 at 4:29 am

     avatar
    Now I'm worried, must we interview surgeons about to operate upon us to verify they won't prematurely give up and leave it in "God's hands"? Surely the way forward is to tell medical students that knowledge and understanding of evolution will be expected of those wishing to be doctors.


    Yorker, I'd go one step further and tell medical students that knowledge and understanding is expected period. Not faith and assumption. Like someone said further up, would you put your life in the hands of somebody who assumes that his/her faith is enough to see everything right ?

    Other Comments by Freelance Scientist

    7. Comment #32714 by NJS on April 18, 2007 at 4:55 am

    Since I started reading sites like this and reading debates I'm alarmed by how many people in the US especially can study courses at University which are critically affected by nonsensical theist dogma. I've read posts from creationists who are studying Biology who seem to suggest no conflict which I think is absurd but this slant of medical students worries me even more.

    Two angles worry me - first I don't see how you can understand or treat illnesses in the modern world without an understanding of our evolution and that of viruses etc.

    Secondly faith that is "deep" enough to reject evolution is the kind that would consider prayer as a valid weapon against disease.

    I've often had a "fantasy" which I'm not proud of of a creationist/anti-science theist being told by a doctor that since they don't accept science they should go away and pray to get better. This was based on the idea that being a doctor would make you necessarily rational in the first place. If this is not the case then I'm even more concerned about the spread of anti-evolution than I though was possible. Moronic preachers and even presidents is one thing - Doctors are quite another.

    Other Comments by NJS

    8. Comment #32722 by Yorker on April 18, 2007 at 5:18 am

    7. Comment #32714 by NJS

    Moronic preachers and even presidents is one thing - Doctors are quite another.

    Exactly.

    How long will it be before we go full circle, back to the days of witch doctors..."hmm, this crappy science-based drug is not working, let us pray, shake our rattles and see what the bones say"

    Other Comments by Yorker

    9. Comment #32723 by ScMay on April 18, 2007 at 5:20 am

    2. Comment #32683 by Zappi
    Is there really a significant resistance to the subject among medical students?
    While I can't speak for the US in Australia I would say no. So far in my bachelor of Medicine/Surgery (Medicine is primarily taught as an undergrad in Australia) I have heard little to no opposition to evolution despite many lectures being littered with comments about it from population genetics, immunology, resistances, anatomy, embryology etc. That said there is never any examination of our knowledge about evolution so maybe they just ignore it and stay quiet. I should also mention that (at least at Monash University in Melbourne) if you have not yet studied biology as a subject in highschool (which has a large and unavoidable evolution content)when you enter the course you must do a 'crash course' at the start of the year.

    Although Paul O'Higgins thought a comparison of the brachial plexus to the pentadactyl limb was helpful, not all his students agreed—complaints were lodged that he was forcing evolution on them. That lack of support was also reflected in the participation of only three medical students at the York meeting (albeit enthusiastic ones), despite being widely publicized. It is not clear whether this is because medical students are more overburdened than most or because of a more deep-rooted resistance to the subject, reflecting wider political and religious prejudice against evolution.
    The complaints I would be surprised about if they occurred at my university if they were simply opposed to evolution, I am not however surprised with the lack of support. Without knowing much about what was actually offered I would hazard a guess that students saw it as irrelevant, we have enough to learn as it is so unless it has some clinical relevance or its going to be on the exam it's just going to be seen as going unnecessarily deep into academics for the sake of it. Most of us have a good enough understanding of evolution to function, anything more is a burden unless you have a special interest (which I might have but also might rather just take the free time).

    That's if it were in Australia, non-compulsory, not examinable and students already had an education in evolution. Without details on what was going on at the US uni in question I can't really say more.

    Other Comments by ScMay

    10. Comment #32745 by I'mNotAlone on April 18, 2007 at 6:54 am

    Given how difficult it can be to see a doctor in the UK nowadays (cant book in advance, can only book on the day - leading to the phone lines being jammed from the moment the surgery opens)I'm concerned that the quality of my diagnosis could be effected by the doctor's religious belief! Imagine if my records show that I am an infi....sorry, aetheist!

    Other Comments by I'mNotAlone

    11. Comment #32765 by ceebuler on April 18, 2007 at 7:59 am

    As a medical student in Toronto, I can attest that most medical students here passively "believe in" evolution, but very few have learned much about it and even fewer think it is relevant to our education. I was dumbfounded when I discovered that a close friend of mine in the class is an Orthodox Christian who believes the literal truth of the bible, including the age of the earth, etc. How could he believe this and still be a competent doctor?

    Well, I must say that I think he will be a good doctor; he will know how to recognize and treat diseases. But he won't have an understanding of the ultimate REASONS these diseases exist. He won't appreciate the richness of understanding that evolutionary theory brings to the discipline.

    I became interested in medicine after reading the Selfish Gene in grade 12, which catapulted me into science and subsequently medicine. I have encountered physician-professors who have equally been influenced by this book (including one who used memes as an analogy to explain viruses, rather than vice versa, which was quite interesting - and a little confusing for the majority of students who have never heard of memes).

    Evolutionary theory is absolutely relevant (though not essential) to medical education. Just today, in lecture, a professor mentioned how certain clotting disorders (eg: Factor V Leiden) that leave a surprisingly large proportion of the population prone to develop fatal blood clots were probably favoured by natural selection because they reduced the risks of bleeding during childbirth. Nowadays bleeding is less of a problem than clotting, but this wasn't the case in our evolutionary past. But my creationist buddy will just remember the details of Factor V Leiden; he'll remember the proximal causes of the disorder (ie: a gene mutation...) and he'll ignore the ultimate explanation. It's a shame.

    CB

    Other Comments by ceebuler

    12. Comment #32779 by pugowner on April 18, 2007 at 8:46 am

    I find it disingenuous to use the example of bacteria developing antibiotic resistance in arguments about evolution. Opponents have no difficulty with change based on mutation and natural selection when it comes to evolution within a species - be it bacteria, plants or dogs.

    The larger arguments are at least two-fold. One is direct: understanding the mechanisms of biology provide benefits in the application of current knowledge and the development of new insights. The second is indirect: scientists (and physicians are trained in science) who reject science on principle become oxymorons. Sorry about that typographical error - drop the "oxy".

    Other Comments by pugowner

    13. Comment #32785 by Azven on April 18, 2007 at 8:52 am

     avatarThe system for resisting disease in humans is itself an evolutionary process seperate from the genetic one that created it (different anti-bodies are tried, the best ones are stepped up the not so good ones stepped down).

    I'm not sure how a creationist medical student can be aware of this and not realize the power of evolution as a creative process. Do they think each anti-body is a new [God initiated] creation event?

    Other Comments by Azven

    14. Comment #32792 by ghostbuster on April 18, 2007 at 9:00 am

    Of course knowing evolution is important to medicine. Diseases evolve after all and knowing the hows and whys is critically important to genetic-based treatments.
    Otherwise, why don't these people stand before God in the field, church or whatever, and get their cures there? Lack of faith in God's powers perhaps? Or in God Himself?

    Other Comments by ghostbuster

    15. Comment #32838 by MarkSmith on April 18, 2007 at 12:23 pm

     avatarTo further the argument about the mechanic: In America, doctor's have fought to be our complete medical authority - for treatment AND prevention. And yet they miserably fail at the latter.

    There may be several reasons for this, but perhaps if the medical community had a better understanding of evolution it would produce much more effective preventatives.

    As an example of this authority: My doctor told me for years that vitamin supplements were only helpful in cases of extreme deficiency (I didn't believe him and ate them anyway). Then he had a heart attack, lost most of his patients and began eating wild salmon and taking vitamins & minerals daily.

    A case of the "opportunity cost" model in the medical industry: I was told this month by a doctor at the famous Mayo Clinic in the States that they wouldn't schedule me to see a Mayo Clinic nutritionist for preventative consultation - they would only see me if I were grossly obese or diabetic. CNN reports that a doctor makes well over $1,000,000 over the lifetime of each diabetic patient. No wonder they wouldn't help me prevent getting the disease.

    Other Comments by MarkSmith

    16. Comment #32848 by Logicel on April 18, 2007 at 1:16 pm

     avatarMarkSmith, I agree. RD in TGD very astutely said there is only good and bad medicine instead of mainstream versus alternative. However, much of mainstream medicine is bad because prevention and education of the patient is hardly ever done.

    I remember 30 years ago, stumbling on research that certain fats are bad, and certain are good, like the ones contained in nuts, seeds, and cold pressed vegetable oils. My MD told me I was nuts (Ha!) because I was spending so much more on extra virgin olive oil (that is, cold pressed). Now, it is commonly accepted. It took 30 years!!!! Anyway, I ignored my doctor, since I was confident in my research and have been imbibing cold pressed veggie oils for decades.

    Other Comments by Logicel

    17. Comment #32849 by Logicel on April 18, 2007 at 1:17 pm

     avatarAnd my clever husband is fond of saying, that if a doctor makes us well, then we should pay for the services, if not, then the doctor should get no payment!

    Other Comments by Logicel

    18. Comment #32850 by ghostbuster on April 18, 2007 at 1:18 pm

    MarkSmith: Vitamin supplements really are not needed except in a few cases--(ie) Vitamin D in northern climates. Most of what one needs is in food. If you follow the glycemic index foods, do some moderate activity like walking for 30 minutes a day, insulin levels are regulated and you don't become a diabetic. Taking supplements just buys into the healthfood crackpot industry and you will be making them as rich as your doctor. additionally, some of the herbal rememdies are manufactured by big pharma as well, only now they do not have to follow any regulations about content and/or saftey and/or effectiveness. Just eat good food and wash it whether it's organic or not.
    There is not one vitamin or supplement that will prevent a heart attack that you cannot get in food, but people, including doctors, get scared and hopefully most of the time the stuff doesn't hurt anything but the pocketbook.
    Lions, worms, primates don't take vitamins--they eat.

    Other Comments by ghostbuster

    19. Comment #32851 by Logicel on April 18, 2007 at 1:23 pm

     avatarLions, worms, and primates have a steady diet of french fries and burgers?

    Eating is not enough. Eating the right foods is what needs to be done, and in America the ignorance concerning what constitutes nutritious food is astounding.

    Other Comments by Logicel

    20. Comment #32865 by jeepyjay on April 18, 2007 at 2:12 pm

     avatarDeimos wrote: "I propose a ban on Jews, Christians and Muslims from studying Medicine."

    I certainly wouldn't endorse that. I'm sure there are many good doctors with religious beliefs. It's only a problem if their religious beliefs are strong enough to overrule their clinical judgment. Conversely there are probably many bad doctors with atheistic views.

    Other Comments by jeepyjay

    21. Comment #32937 by ratio on April 18, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Comment #32779 by pugowner on April 18, 2007 at 8:46 am

    "I find it disingenuous to use the example of bacteria developing antibiotic resistance in arguments about evolution."

    I don't see your point. With the popularly held view of evolution as being the survival of the fittest there is a problem with testability. How do you define "fittest" except being those who survive. But with antibiotic resistance the matter can be investigated with controlled experiments. "Fittest" can be defined ahead of the experiments (ability to grow in a medium containing an antibiotic concentration that kills the control group). And it can easily be followed in real time rather than in the fossil record.

    Another thing about antibiotic resistance is the stark difference it presents in terms of the interpretation of what's going on.In evolutionary terms the bacterium is adapting to changed circumstances in the usual way. In theist terms god has just noticed (it took a while)that we have developed a means of combating one of the many diseases he helpfully provided to make us suffer; he is not happy about it and has intervened to get things back to where they were.

    /r

    Other Comments by ratio

    22. Comment #32949 by maton100 on April 18, 2007 at 7:37 pm

     avatarSure, if you don't want to obtain foresight or understand the past. This is typical of our capitalist "me" thinking. After all we have dominion right? Jeeeeeeeez.

    Other Comments by maton100

    23. Comment #32957 by philos on April 18, 2007 at 8:31 pm

     avatarDawkins gave a lecture, "Should Doctors be Darwinian?" several years back - I have never seen it. Anyone have a copy? Thanks. - philos

    Other Comments by philos

    24. Comment #33057 by chamber on April 19, 2007 at 4:39 am

    A Medicine analogy

    You go to a pharmacy, and pharmacist said you have to wait for million years to make the medicine because they use evolution method to get it. They put one ingredient on the floor, and then that ingredient, eventually through chances and luck, will come into existence. You say how come specific and certain amounts of ingredients will mix to make my medicine, and the pharmacist says,' don't worry luck and chances will do it.' You will be leaving the pharmacy swearing on the way to another pharmacy. Now let's get back to reality. This world is a huge Pharmacy with thousand of medicine like animals and plants; all kind of fish, squid, turtle, octopus, … and land animals, tigers, snakes, cockroaches, bats, peacocks, eagles, bees, and finally human beings, so if there is pharmacy full of medicines and each of which requires specific ingredients and certain portions, there must be a pharmacist. We cannot imagine that all medicines came into existence by chances or luck which is totally a chaotic and illogical imagination, delusion, illusion, whatever you call it.


    Darwin cannot be a doctor because he is a story writer.

    Other Comments by chamber

    25. Comment #33063 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 4:46 am

    Chamber,

    The pharmacist is a human. Where did the pharmacist come from?

    P.S.

    Darwin is a doctor, because he taught us truth, i.e. knowledge that is according to reality. To tell the truth is teaching, ergo Darwin is a Doctor. To read the Bible to a child, is a story teller, somone who imparts fiction.

    Other Comments by Deimos

    26. Comment #33075 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 5:18 am

    Chamber you are using circular reasoning. The key for your understanding is that the processes involved are independent of the pharmacist. The instance in which the "ingredients" are in place does not require a pharamacist.

    You are chasing your own tail with your fake story. And the answer to your delusion is in the tail chase, you are chasing a part of yourself. That part is your own ego. Your ego raises your self as a human above everthing else. God is your Ego, your Ego is God. Ergo Man created God.

    Other Comments by Deimos

    27. Comment #33083 by tom70 on April 19, 2007 at 5:46 am

    I've not read all the comments on here but some of them seem to bang on a lot about medicine turning back to witch doctors etc etc.

    I'm a medical student at the moment. i happen to find evolution a very interesting subject and i personally would love to hear more about it in lectures but i can totally understand why its not there. there is such a huge volume of information to absorb that is directly needed for a day to day job as a doctor that there isn't space for it in the curriculum. just about all of us did A level biology, so we know about evolution. if we agree with it, great, those in my year that don't - well one lecture isnt going to change their minds.
    Tom

    Other Comments by tom70

    28. Comment #33104 by ghostbuster on April 19, 2007 at 7:45 am

    Logicel:
    I said good food. I also mentioned glycemic index food. Look it up. I agree that most people have no idea about nutrition, but isn't this just part of the problem that is being discussed on this site---that people are profoundly ignorant of science among other things? Such ignorance makes people vulnerable to exploitation by gurus of all sorts, the pseudo-science liars. If one eats french fries and hamburgers on a steady basis, no amount of vitamins will do any good. It's like smoking and taking up jogging.

    Other Comments by ghostbuster

    29. Comment #33508 by devolved on April 20, 2007 at 12:53 pm

    There's no question that antibiotics are one of the greatest medical discoveries ever made. They have saved lives beyond number.

    But there are scientists who have methodically, carefully and most significantly, scientifically demonstrated that antibiotic resistance does not support neo-Darwian evolution.

    I appreciate the antipathy many feel towards people with different worldviews but they are not stupid or blind.

    The following link is worth following if you are prepared to be challenged:

    http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/3831/

    And yes it is a creationist website but if you denounce someone else's ideas without first examining them what does it say about you?

    One of my lifetime lessons is that whenever I have thrown mud at people I've ended up losing ground.

    So how about a scientific and philosophic exchange of ideas with vitriol or abuse?

    And by the way I would strongly recommend that anyone interested in the bigger issues Richard Dawkins raises should read a quite brilliant book called 'The Dawkins Letters' by David Robertson
    ISBN 9781845502614. He agrees with much of Richard's ideas but also shows his shortcomings.

    Other Comments by devolved

    30. Comment #33809 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 1:14 am

    26. Comment #33075 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 5:18 am
    Chamber you are using circular reasoning. The key for your understanding is that the processes involved are independent of the pharmacist. The instance in which the "ingredients" are in place does not require a pharamacist.

    You are chasing your own tail with your fake story. And the answer to your delusion is in the tail chase, you are chasing a part of yourself. That part is your own ego. Your ego raises your self as a human above everthing else. God is your Ego, your Ego is God. Ergo Man created God.

    Chamber says
    Sorry I have no tail to chase and I don't claim that my ancestors had a tail either.

    This is what it is;
    Darwin, your ego in this case- made up a story then rest of the guys like Dawkins some more outside- try to prove it with all kinds of illogical demonstrations, pictures, fake fossils etc. The more you try to prove the more you go down because the statements are not comprehensive and coherent.

    This point is important because we are supposed to define truth outside us: truth must not depend on us, it must depend on the world. Something is true not because I think so, but because there is some objective truth out there in the world.

    There is one and only one concept of truth, but it can be realized in multiple ways. Truth is defined by the set of coherent statements that make up a whole system of beliefs. Quoted from Alfred Tarski's theory of truth

    Now check the following web page about fake fossils.
    http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Fake_fossils


    Truth is the knowledge that can be accepted by all people, and today people all over the world do not believe that they came from monkeys except a minority group people – that would be atheists.

    The first individuals to self-identify as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century; today, about 2.3% of the world's population describes itself as atheist.[2] (from Wikipeadia0

    Definition:
    Begging the question in logic, also known as circular reasoning and by the Latin name petitio principii, is an informal fallacy found in many attempts at logical arguments. An argument that begs the question is one in which a premise presupposes the conclusion in some way. Such an argument is valid in the sense in which logicians use that term, yet provides no reason at all to believe its conclusion.

    Begging question
    Darwin says we – all plants, animals, humans- came from a worm.(we gotto prove it. Where are the grave yards bones?
    Because Darwin is right. He tells the truth.
    So evolution is true.


    Reasing with creation
    Logic says it is impossible that thousand kinds of animals came from a worm.

    Because each kind of animals is created seperately and it cannot be attributed to one cell's random mutation and its blind chance. ( no need to play with with words like 'Blind watchmaker is not blind' to avoid and ignore the perfect creation) Otherwise we are unable to see the perfect designed creatures. We would have seen some ugly, monster-like creatures. Thus it is impossible that chances and luck has no power knowledge and wisdom and we logically conclude that all creatures were created seperately and multiplled from their own kind.

    I would not say my computer mutated from my radio even by all chance and luck. One kind cannot turn into another kind that's why today from peacocks to octopus they are diiferent and they are beaitifully designed. Then if there is a designer then there must be a designer. That designer is God.

    In this case, Begging question fits in evolution theory.
    God's Creation reasons with logic so it is true.

    Other Comments by chamber

    31. Comment #33810 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 1:18 am

    25. Comment #33063 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 4:46 am

    Chamber,

    The pharmacist is a human. Where did the pharmacist come from?

    P.S.

    Darwin is a doctor, because he taught us truth, i.e. knowledge that is according to reality. To tell the truth is teaching, ergo Darwin is a Doctor. To read the Bible to a child, is a story teller, somone who imparts fiction.



    Good God! Please this is just an analogy. If you don't understand I what I am saying, ask somebody else. The world with its thousand kinds of creations with different structures and elements – ingredients – is a huge pharmacy.
    .On an intellectual level, we cannot accept following statements.

    Evolution: We evolved from monkeys. And there you go – a missing link found, a fossils that belongs to 1,5 miilion years ago. A so c-called fossil – another hoax – looking like monkey.

    Truth: In Kenya scientists found the fossils that belonged to a human being. Human skull is the same as we have today and it dates back – hold your self tight- 2.8 million years. So now what? For further info about fake fossils, you can check the following web page.

    http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Fake_fossils

    Other Comments by chamber

    32. Comment #33826 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 3:50 am

    139. Comment #33396 by Stewart on April 20, 2007 at 2:39 am
    Oh, I get it. Chamber thinks the carpenter created the wood. I thought he would have thought that god created both wood and carpenter. If the carpenter has children, who created them? Chamber claimed to have read "The Blind Watchmaker." If this claim is true, he does not seem to have understood it very well, because he is mocking claims that have not been made. I can only say I'm glad that we are finally making enough dents in the public consciousness to have caused this massive backlash. It's about time believers realised that their position is neither shared nor respected as widely as they wanted to assume.

    Chamber says
    Analogy: Analogy is both the cognitive process of transferring information from a particular subject (the analogue or source) to another particular subject (the target), and a linguistic expression corresponding to such a process. In a narrower sense, analogy is an inference or an argument from a particular to another particular, as opposed to deduction, induction, and abduction, where at least one of the premises or the conclusion is general. The word analogy can also refer to the relation between the source and the target themselves, which is often, though not necessarily, a similarity, as in the biological notion of analogy.
    Since you are so much blinded by blindwatcmaker I am trying to to make it simple for you. Again creation cannot be same as with his creator. Evolution says all the furnutire all over the world(Analogy just an analogy) came out of a small piece of wood through chances and luck. Now tell me! Am I mocking or I am directly addressing your intellince level and you avoid answering me because you have no answer except mocking! By the way I did not start yet mocking as much as Dawkins did in his books.



    Just saw the other comment that came in. "If we just believe in god we won't need science" seems to be the gist of it. I wonder if Chamber even realises that many, many people find the all-purpose-solution idea of supernatural entities much more preposterous and impossible to swallow than he does the evidence-based scenarios proposed by science. A few hundred years ago even to claim it were possible to do what we're doing now by contributing comments to a website from different continents in real time might have had us burned at the stake.

    Many people story:
    http://wiki.cotch.net/index.php/Fake_fossils

    The first individuals to self-identify as "atheist" appeared in the 18th century; today, about 2.3% of the world's population describes itself as atheist.[2] (from Wikipeadia)

    Other Comments by chamber

    33. Comment #33827 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 3:52 am

    140. Comment #33620 by John Phillips on April 20, 2007 at 6:14 pm
    Chambers: Just to correct you on one point in particular that you and many creationists seem to get your knickers in a twist about, we are not evolved from worms. Now we do share a common ancestor with worms, i.e. the polyp, but we ourselves, didn't actually evolve from worms as worms evolved along one line while we evolved along another. This can be shown from analysing our respective DNA even to the extent of showing where the evolutionary branch occurred. I mention this one particular glaring error in the hope that you will look openly at other assumptions you may have about evolution that are also no doubt equally error strewn, at least if some of your replies to other posters on this site are any indication.

    Chamber says

    All right start it over again.
    Analogy:
    There was a small tiny piece of wood at the beginning. That tiny wood first evolved into a small butt ashtray, That ashtray evolved into a wooden fork then fork evolved on and on and on there you go we have a got a very big cupboard. All this happened through chances, luck, wind, rain etc. So What you say is that huge cupboard came from a small piece of wood indirectly. Does it make sense?
    Indeed, DNA and Genes' structures are so complex. One wrong move can result in disaster. Thus my analogy is very simple if we consider the perfect design and structures of each creature.
    So if you give all date to the computer – if you don't trust your logic - and ask it what are the odds that the whole animals, plants humans were created by chances? Please share what you find with us.

    Other Comments by chamber

    34. Comment #33828 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 3:53 am

    140. Comment #33620 by John Phillips on April 20, 2007 at 6:14 pm


    There is no disgrace in being ignorant about a subject, the disgrace comes from wilfully remaining ignorant when the evidence is there for you to research for yourself. Of course, it does involve more effort on your part than simply accepting what some supposed religious authority figure tells you about evolution. But what price a little effort for real evidence backed knowledge instead of being told goddidit. Of course many believers dismiss evolution for the reason that it doesn't equate with their religion's ego-centrist world view, i.e. they are no longer 'special' or 'chosen', simply a differently evolved member of the animal kingdom. But then again, science is no respecter of egos, religion's or any one else's either for that matter.

    Chamber says
    Ignorance comes through not knowing the truth. I am looking to find God. I am even just looking at myself. My heart, blood veins, lungs, gallbladder that produces acid according to the food, brain, best portioned my body parts, like I don't have my eyes at the back of my head- you know blindwatcmaker and chances are involved right, which are unconscious, mindless ideas in your case- my hair, my camera like eyes, my memory and my soul. If you ignore all these beautiful creation and attribute them to blind chances and luck, who would be ignorant? Honestly I am asking who would be?
    Holy Books are the interpretations and explanations and catalogue of the world and universe. We believe in God because we see his Art in his creation not only holly books tell us. Prophets, holy books, our universe and our conscious are the proofs of God.

    Other Comments by chamber

    35. Comment #33830 by chamber on April 22, 2007 at 4:07 am

    141. Comment #33697 by Quetzalcoatl on April 21, 2007 at 7:10 am
    Re the many comments of Chamber.

    Oh dear.

    - Your analogy of a tree evolving into a dining table is completely fallacious, and only serves to undermine any point you were trying to make. Tables are not natural. Humans took trees, and turned them into tables. Trees mostly evolve into...wait for it...better-adapted trees. I understand you were trying to use it as an analogy for God creating everything, but provoking amusement and bemusement is not a good way to make a point. Evolution has nothing to say about artificial structures.


    - 400,000 is an interesting number. There are actually hundreds and hundreds of millions of species out there in the present day, and most of them are beetles.

    Chamber says
    Oh My God!
    So creation has a bigger number then. The kinds of animals and plants are 400 hundred thousand. I am sure about it.


    You seem to believe in souls. ASIDE from the Bible, what exactly is your evidence for this? You know, scanning of the brain has shown that different areas activate when we do different things, while others do not. The idea of a "ghost in the machine", of a little Chamber behind your eyes, is an illusion of the senses. There is no centralised "you", so how can there be a soul?


    Chamber says
    Our body is the dress of our soul and our eyes are the windows of our soul. When people are dead, they don't move. When people are sleeping, still they don't move and they can still see the dreams while their eyes are closed. Please do not tell me that we don't dream. Check further info about souls' existence,

    http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/2/soul.htm


    I followed your living dinosaur link. Very amusing. I don't know what part of the world you're from, but I'm from the UK. We have a similar myth regarding the "Loch Ness monster", where some believe that a plesiosaur lives in a lake in Scotland. This of course ignores the fact that the loch has no fish, so there's nothing for it to eat, and that a plesiosaur is an air-breather, and would have to come to the surface so often that you couldn't fail to observe it. Your examples are not lending your position any credibility.

    Chamber says
    -So if this is the way do answer for a scientific article, what can I say welcome to club of no answer but mocking about logical articles and ideas which was started by Dawkins.

    - You talk about perfect body parts. Humans are not perfectly designed, by any means. Our air and food pipes cross, so we choke. We have appendixes. Our spines are curved- for standing upright, that isn't great. Ask an engineer. An analogy for the positioning of reproductive organs might be "the playground between the sewers". We have wisdom teeth that don't properly fit our jaws. Above a certain height, our skeletal structure is insufficient, causing serious problems. Ask any of those people with thyroid problems who grow to seven feet or more.

    - Finally, you said that believing in a Creator is easier than "figuring out illogical stories". Firstly, they're only illogical the way you tell them. If you've really read RD's books, you should know that. Secondly, JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS EASY TO BELIEVE DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE. People used to believe the sun went round the earth. I mean, come on, it's easy to believe. Just look at it, right? THEY WERE WRONG.

    That's all for now.

    Chamber says
    Now you're saying that all of your perfect designed and well-portioned body parts are not perfectly designed because of your curved spines. Check with your biology information why it is like that? Do not make quote all the parts and functions and their amazing work. You eat the food and the useful parts the food becomes blood and your entry body is working through the signals between related parts and brain and now you are saying we are not perfectly created. Come on we are not talking about random chances and luck that we can have insufficient and inadequate body parts. Please get real. Get out of your delusional world and see the truth. Please!

    Other Comments by chamber

    36. Comment #33831 by scottishgeologist on April 22, 2007 at 4:09 am

     avatarYorker has asked a very interesting question: "

    "How can anyone against evolution want to be a doctor in the first place?"

    There are certain evangelical churches that I know of that have a very high number of medics in them. St Georges Tron in Glasgow is one. SO is the Charlotte Baptist Chapel in Edinburgh. From anecdotal evidence, I know of many "christian" medics, consultants, doctors etc in Inverness.

    For some reason, a lot of medics are evangelicals. There used to be a joke about the Charlotte Baptist Church that if you took ill there, you would probably get crushed in the stampede of doctors rushing to help you.

    So 2 questions. Why are so many medics faith heads? I am sure its not just a Scottish phenomenon, although Scotland has been famous for both medicine and religion in the past. It seems to me that medics, almost stand apart from other scientists in this respect

    The second question is: How many of them are anti -evolution? I would suspect, from anecdotal evidence and from those that I know, that a lot probably believe in "theistic evolution" - ie Evo is the process that God used to create the species. Rather than YEC or other such nonsense.

    Figures are probably very hard to come by.

    Has anyone else encountered this "medics at church" phenomenon?

    Other Comments by scottishgeologist

    37. Comment #33845 by devolved on April 22, 2007 at 6:15 am

    scottishgeologist asks

    "How can anyone against evolution want to be a doctor in the first place?"

    If we were to ask 1000 doctors "Why did you become a doctor?" I suspect that most would answer to the effect that they wanted to help people and make the world a better place.

    Someone trained in biology and human anatomy who loved others and wanted to make their lives more bearable may well decide to become a doctor. It is possible that such a person (and I was talking with one this morning) looks at all the same data as you do and comes to the quite rational conclusion that complex living creatures could not have been created by luck, time, natural selection and mutations.

    One of the reasons for doubting what you believe (but cannot prove) is that mutations are overwhelmingly harmful. When I look at biology books and pro-evolution websites they invariably give examples of existing genetic information being re-shuffled, or genetic information being lost. Either of these may confer an advantage but neither is proof of evolution from simpler to more advance forms of life. Or to put it another way there is no increase in genetic intelligence.

    I have visited the Richard Dawkins website looking for well argued, scientifically supported and politely reasoned debate. It is profoundly disappointing to discover so little science, rational thinking or courtesy. (I am not being personal).

    Now you will know that Richard Dawkins has said, "I believe, but I cannot prove, that all life, all intelligence, all creativity and all "design" anywhere in the universe is the direct or indirect product of Darwinian natural selection." [Dawkins, R., quoted in: Roger Highfield, Science's scourge of believers declares his faith in Darwin, Daily Telegraph, 5 January, 2005, p.10]

    And so let me challenge you to prove to me how luck, time, mutations and natural selection can increase genetic information.

    I found this comment on a creationist website and it seems to sum up their arguments:

    Natural selection involves merely the shuffling, rearrangement and degeneration of existing genetic information, whereas evolution requires encyclopaedic quantities of new information to be produced by unintelligent, natural processes—information coding for new types of organs, limbs, physiologies, etc.

    Other Comments by devolved

    38. Comment #33847 by d4m14n on April 22, 2007 at 6:36 am

    Re: #33845

    Devolved,

    I'm sure you'll have many responses to your challenge. I'll start the ball rolling by pointing you in the direction of a recently evolved, new version of the human ASPM gene.

    http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn7974

    I'm not a geneticist, but I'd stake my house that the difference between the 'old' and the 'new' version is a minor change in the gene sequence, NOT the introduction of 'encyclopaedic quantities of new information', as you seem to believe it would require.

    Other Comments by d4m14n

    39. Comment #33853 by devolved on April 22, 2007 at 8:22 am

    Re #33845

    Dear d4m14n

    Thank you on three counts. First for the speed of your response, second for the courteous reply and third for providing the New Scientist link.

    Like you I'm not a geneticist.

    Here's a response that you might like to look at:

    http://www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/4651/
    It appears to be well informed and referenced.

    I hope you don't lose your house!
    Thanks again.

    Other Comments by devolved

    40. Comment #33866 by ghostbuster on April 22, 2007 at 10:06 am

    I used to think that genetic science would clean up all the stupid creationist theories; however, to quote Susan Blackmore:
    People's desire to believe in the paranormal is stronger than all the evidence that it does not exist."
    All you have to do is check out Chamber's comments to know this is true. Chamber uses an argumentative style not unlike that used by Jehovah Witnesses so that any relevant points are reduced to defining a word, or an illogical, circular argument, or going off topic. It is actually more educational to study the method used by Chamber than the content of his comments. You will also find this style within White Supremecy groups, conspiracy nuts, New Age philosophies etc.--so forget the contents, look at the style.

    Other Comments by ghostbuster

    41. Comment #34367 by chamber on April 23, 2007 at 10:23 pm

    Illigocal and circular arguments goes along with the arguments that insists on something illogical. I just quote what I wrote for Mr O'reilly interview wipe-out. Though - to be fair - O'reilly could have let Mr Dawkins speak more, the result will be no difference. Because you arguing against logic and there is no way that you will win the argument.
    My quotation;

    The Universe is a book written by God with 400 sentence-like thousand kinds of animals and plants, and you still say there is no evidence because you do not know how to read this book. Once you can't read it, you start making false and illogical assumptions that all creations came from a worm and worm came from a Dna along with genes that were playing in a warm water pond, and a selfish gene found a cell by chance and luck. Genes were there at the beginning. So does this sound logical? You situation is really hopeless since you are saying that a book can be written by an author? Please let me know when you get to the point Mt O'Reilly pointed out. And try to accept that God is everywhere, where ever we look at, in His beautiful designs.

    Other Comments by chamber
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