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Christians at Bible publishers have their throats cut
by Suna Erdem in Istanbul, Times Online
Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1674152.ece
Knife-wielding attackers slit the throats of three people at a Christian publishing house in conservative eastern Turkey yesterday.
One of the dead men was of German origin, the local governor said. Two other men were taken to hospital, one with knife wounds to his throat, back and stomach, the other with a head injury after jumping from a third-floor window to escape. The hospital in the town of Malatya said that both were in a critical condition.
Police have detained four men for the attack, which took place in the early afternoon. Television footage showed a policeman tackling one man while another man covered in blood was carried to an ambulance on a stretcher.
The killings came less than three months after the murder of a prominent Armenian journalist.
The Zirve publishing house, which the Turkish media says is owned by two South Africans, Gert Martinus de Lange and Stephen Smithdorf, had been the target of nationalist protests for allegedly distributing Bibles and proselytising.
Halil Ibrahim Dasoz, the Governor of Malatya, said the authorities were also investigating possible Islamist links, because the method of killing was reminiscent of attacks by the Turkish arm of the militant Islamist group Hezbollah.
Officials from Zirve say they had been the target of threats for some time and had been intending to ask for protection. They deny any missionary aims.
Martin de Langue, a former official, reportedly said two years ago that the public in Malatya was being provoked against Christians and foreigners. The small community of Turkish Protestant Christians, as opposed to Greek and Armenian minorities, comprises eager converts with a missionary bent. Although proselytising is not illegal in mainly Muslim Turkey it is regarded with hostility.
The attack came as two Turkish evangelical Christians in Istanbul attended a hearing of their trial under the notorious article 301 of the penal code, which the West condemns as a restriction on expression, after being accused by nationalists of insulting Turkey and Islam.
The European Commission has condemned the attack as "horrendous". The EC has long called on Turkey to offer better protection and rights for its minorities.
The attack comes at a time of great tension in Turkey over secularist worries that the Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a former Islamist firebrand who now says he is a conservative democrat, will announce he is running for President in next month's elections. This would cement the grip of his Justice and Development Party (AKP) on the top jobs in the land. Hundreds of thousands of secularists marched at the weekend to prevent what they believe would result in an assault on the secular nature of the state.
The AKP MP for Malatya said the attack in his constituency could have been an act of provocation aimed at creating greater turmoil.
"There are people within Turkey who want extraordinary tension to reign in the country," the MP. Munir Erkal, said.
Threat to faith
There are 100,000 Christians in Turkey. Last year two employees of a Bible correspondence course were charged with insulting Turkishness". It was alleged they were bribing Muslims to convert, promoting promiscuity and denigrating the Turkish army. Odemis Protestant Church in Izmir was attacked with Molotov cocktails in November.
Source: Turkish News, Christian Solidarity Worldwide, Asia News
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article1674152.ece
Knife-wielding attackers slit the throats of three people at a Christian publishing house in conservative eastern Turkey yesterday.
One of the dead men was of German origin, the local governor said. Two other men were taken to hospital, one with knife wounds to his throat, back and stomach, the other with a head injury after jumping from a third-floor window to escape. The hospital in the town of Malatya said that both were in a critical condition.
Police have detained four men for the attack, which took place in the early afternoon. Television footage showed a policeman tackling one man while another man covered in blood was carried to an ambulance on a stretcher.
The killings came less than three months after the murder of a prominent Armenian journalist.
The Zirve publishing house, which the Turkish media says is owned by two South Africans, Gert Martinus de Lange and Stephen Smithdorf, had been the target of nationalist protests for allegedly distributing Bibles and proselytising.
Halil Ibrahim Dasoz, the Governor of Malatya, said the authorities were also investigating possible Islamist links, because the method of killing was reminiscent of attacks by the Turkish arm of the militant Islamist group Hezbollah.
Officials from Zirve say they had been the target of threats for some time and had been intending to ask for protection. They deny any missionary aims.
Martin de Langue, a former official, reportedly said two years ago that the public in Malatya was being provoked against Christians and foreigners. The small community of Turkish Protestant Christians, as opposed to Greek and Armenian minorities, comprises eager converts with a missionary bent. Although proselytising is not illegal in mainly Muslim Turkey it is regarded with hostility.
The attack came as two Turkish evangelical Christians in Istanbul attended a hearing of their trial under the notorious article 301 of the penal code, which the West condemns as a restriction on expression, after being accused by nationalists of insulting Turkey and Islam.
The European Commission has condemned the attack as "horrendous". The EC has long called on Turkey to offer better protection and rights for its minorities.
The attack comes at a time of great tension in Turkey over secularist worries that the Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a former Islamist firebrand who now says he is a conservative democrat, will announce he is running for President in next month's elections. This would cement the grip of his Justice and Development Party (AKP) on the top jobs in the land. Hundreds of thousands of secularists marched at the weekend to prevent what they believe would result in an assault on the secular nature of the state.
The AKP MP for Malatya said the attack in his constituency could have been an act of provocation aimed at creating greater turmoil.
"There are people within Turkey who want extraordinary tension to reign in the country," the MP. Munir Erkal, said.
Threat to faith
There are 100,000 Christians in Turkey. Last year two employees of a Bible correspondence course were charged with insulting Turkishness". It was alleged they were bribing Muslims to convert, promoting promiscuity and denigrating the Turkish army. Odemis Protestant Church in Izmir was attacked with Molotov cocktails in November.
Source: Turkish News, Christian Solidarity Worldwide, Asia News
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Posted: Wednesday, April 18, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 49 of 49 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #32907 by maton100 on April 18, 2007 at 4:47 pm
Love thine enemies, but death to infidels. Alright, we should be so lucky that we don't get our morals from holy books. Other Comments by maton100
3. Comment #32909 by Big T on April 18, 2007 at 4:50 pm
"Man is the only animal who has the true religion - several of them. He is the only animal who loves his neighbor as himself, and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight." Mark Twain - "The Lowest Animal". Mr. Clemens wrote that oh, about 100 years ago. How quickly religious people learn!Other Comments by Big T
4. Comment #32912 by Jack Rawlinson on April 18, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Here's another story to quote next time some idiot believer tells you that religion is necessary for morality. Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
5. Comment #32915 by Convertedchristian on April 18, 2007 at 5:20 pm
so sad. Those men died for nothing. I think if turkey is admited into the EU more of ths type of stuff is going to happen.Other Comments by Convertedchristian
6. Comment #32922 by Bremas on April 18, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Post 4Jack...come back. I want that quote.
edit. Okay, I get it. You're talking about the article. :-)
Other Comments by Bremas
7. Comment #32939 by NakedCelt on April 18, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Convertedchristian: Possibly, initially. But mightn't Turkish inclusion be better in the long run? It would be a significant blow to the current nation-state system where most states have a de facto religious consensus congenial to the kind of thinking exemplified in these murders. If Turkey were in the EU, it would no longer be so generally true that "European = Christian". I suspect that that fact is behind a lot of the opposition.Other Comments by NakedCelt
8. Comment #32941 by steveroot on April 18, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Ah, yes, the religion of peace!Steve
Other Comments by steveroot
9. Comment #32953 by John Phillips on April 18, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Steverooot: yep, they are constantly striving to prove how peaceful their religion is, oh wait...Other Comments by John Phillips
10. Comment #32958 by EvolvedDNA on April 18, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Stand back.. there is about to be a rush of Muslims about to protest these murders...Other Comments by EvolvedDNA
11. Comment #32959 by hightrekker on April 18, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Killing over which version of Bronze Age Fiction (or Iron Age in the case of the con man Mohammed) is correct is sheer madness.When one man is delusional, they call him mentally ill and give him care. When a whole group of people are delusional it is called religion.
Other Comments by hightrekker
12. Comment #32982 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 18, 2007 at 11:24 pm
5. Comment #32915 by Convertedchristian on April 18, 2007 at 5:20 pm I think if turkey is admited into the EU more of ths type of stuff is going to happen.
Why do you think that? If Turkey joins the EU, the pressure for increased secularisation will be massive, and a "Christian" EU can have a stake finally hammered into it's heart. No man, we need these guys in the EU, and they need us. Don't let a few wackos trigger your "outgroup" alert.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
13. Comment #32983 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 18, 2007 at 11:25 pm
7. Comment #32939 by NakedCelt on April 18, 2007 at 7:15 pm Convertedchristian: Possibly, initially. But mightn't Turkish inclusion be better in the long run? It would be a significant blow to the current nation-state system where most states have a de facto religious consensus congenial to the kind of thinking exemplified in these murders. If Turkey were in the EU, it would no longer be so generally true that "European = Christian". I suspect that that fact is behind a lot of the opposition.
SNAP!!! :-)
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
14. Comment #32984 by Isik on April 18, 2007 at 11:26 pm
There are people within Turkey who want extraordinary tension to reign in the country," the MP. Munir Erkal, said.As an insider, you are all wrong. In my country Christians and jewish people live in peace since 1492. So some guys want to stir up the things between religions and make us look bad in international arena. So they did it again. First they killed an innocent Christian priest then an Ermenian writer, now again a German christian. Don't rush to judge. Killing a person has nothing to do with anybody's religion. It really depends on why you kill and what kind of nid set you have at the time of killing. Now the police found a special drug in one of killers' blood, that cancels faith and conscious. Who is going to explain it. My prophet Mohammed is not a con man. He is the last prophet. Respect other peoples' religion even if you don't believe it. This is very human, isn't it. I respect what you believe. This is your choice. And This is my choice.
Other Comments by Isik
15. Comment #32985 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 18, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Hey Isik let me be (one of?) the first to welcome you into the EU. Turkey joining will be on of the most critical steps on the path to both European and Global unity.Can't agree with you on the Mohammed thing, but if we can agree to disagree, that works for me. Welcome to the EU:-)
Oh yes, and I am still pimping the 2nd "episode" in From faith to freedom.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtgNlP28yBo
Had real trouble getting the sound synced., all comments, critiques etc. welcome. I'm hoping that this will be instructive and helpful for "recovering fundamentalists", as well give those of you with no exposure to the mind set, a little insight into same.
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
16. Comment #32986 by epeeist on April 18, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Comment #32984 by IsikKilling a person has nothing to do with anybody's religion. It really depends on why you kill and what kind of nid set you have at the time of killing.
No, pardoning people for murder because the victim was "morally corrupt" has nothing to do with religion either, see http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/world/middleeast/19iran.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
for details (needs registration)
Other Comments by epeeist
17. Comment #32989 by elvenearth on April 19, 2007 at 12:15 am
Comment #32905 by Damien White:"Thou Shalt Not Kill". It's apalling what happens when two movements who live by this creed get together. Utter hypocracy..."
Imagine if the story had been about rationalists (some type of...) being attacked, would you still have made this statement (rationalists also being against murder)? I think its safe to say that the people who did the attacking did not share the philosophy of "Do not murder" with those they were attempting to kill.
Comment #32907 by maton100:
Love thine enemies, but death to infidels. Alright, we should be so lucky that we don't get our morals from holy books.
Mixing the teachings of Jesus with the actions of these extremist Muslims is a tad rich Maton. Try to actually be a rationalist in everything you analyse, not just some things.
Other Comments by elvenearth
18. Comment #33005 by aleprechaunist on April 19, 2007 at 1:57 am
At best, religion provides a sense of community based on a simple but antiquated ethical framework which is ill-equipped to adapt to new knowledge about the world and sits rather uncomfortably with modern science. At worst it leads to this sort of thing...Other Comments by aleprechaunist
19. Comment #33013 by NJS on April 19, 2007 at 2:34 am
"Atheist nutcases kill as well. But I guess that's too much truth for this website"Scorecard for crimes commiteed in the name of religion Vs atheism please?
No references to Stalin allowed.
Other Comments by NJS
20. Comment #33014 by aleprechaunist on April 19, 2007 at 2:43 am
NJS,Be careful not to fall into a trap. We should be talking about the number of murders comitted 'as a direct result' of a secular worldview as against those comitted as a direct result of a religious doctrine.
Atheists might well have committed more murders than all the religious groups put together, but that would still be missing the point...
Other Comments by aleprechaunist
21. Comment #33015 by NJS on April 19, 2007 at 2:47 am
Alpechaunist:Thats what I meant - thanks for clarifying my intent with better wording.
Other Comments by NJS
22. Comment #33016 by NJS on April 19, 2007 at 2:51 am
I'd also add that the VT guy had mental health problems - what are the chances of 4 men all having similar problems which would allow Mr Robertson or others to dismiss them as "nutters" - their common thread wasn't that - it was religious intolerance.Other Comments by NJS
23. Comment #33023 by CJ on April 19, 2007 at 3:12 am
14 Isik wrote:So some guys want to stir up the things between religions and make us look bad in international arena.
Why? What do you think is the aim of these people? I don't understand why a group of Muslims would want to make Muslims in general look bad.
Other Comments by CJ
24. Comment #33028 by epeeist on April 19, 2007 at 3:17 am
Comment #33007 by weefreeAtheist nutcases kill as well. But I guess that's too much truth for this website.
No doubt they do, but as aleprechaunist says whether they do as part of their secular world view is moot. And even if this turns out to be true in this particular case then your attempt at sweeping generalisation isn't valid.
Other Comments by epeeist
25. Comment #33030 by Duff on April 19, 2007 at 3:25 am
Weefree, you're whining again.Other Comments by Duff
26. Comment #33036 by CJ on April 19, 2007 at 3:31 am
19 weefree wrote:I wonder why this particular story was posted and not the story about the Virginia massacres?
Insane people kill people. Atheist insane people kill people. Religious insane people kill people. However, the atheist lunatic does so in isolation; religious lunatics do it in groups and use the group ethos to justify their behaviour. The group mentality by definition amplifies the memes of the group and once you get a successful self-perpetuating meme based on violence it attracts the greedy, easily lead and feeble minded, both Communist and religious.
This story was posted for the simple fact that religion was at the root of the killing in Turkey. This site is all about breaking down religious memes so what did you expect?
Thanks for joining in; your strident voice really just confirms the reason why this site exists.
Other Comments by CJ
27. Comment #33037 by Logicel on April 19, 2007 at 3:36 am
Isik, I also support Turkey's entry in the EU. Do you support that?I agree that religious people do have the right to practice their religion, in private. I respect that right, however, I am sure you would not want me to lie and say that I respect your actual religious beliefs, because I cannot in truth say that. Therefore in not respecting the content of your beliefs, while respecting the right for you to be able to practice your beliefs, I will criticise those beliefs but support your right to practice them.
Other Comments by Logicel
28. Comment #33038 by oeditor on April 19, 2007 at 3:40 am
"Now the police found a special drug in one of killers' blood, that cancels faith and conscious."My initial reaction was to crack a joke about "anti-geraniol" but then I wondered if it was true? Were these religious maniacs deliberately drugged? If so, is this commonplace? What drug was it? Or were they just on geraniol after all?
Brian
Other Comments by oeditor
29. Comment #33040 by pissinintothewind on April 19, 2007 at 3:43 am
Isik hello, I do not see the fact christian proselytizers were murdered by islamic extremists after reported tension between the relgious communities as a coincidence,you have to realise that most people would not. weefree, I think you will find that most people on this forum "thinkingly" lump all religions together,it sounds like you are a member of one that has the answer,please tell.Other Comments by pissinintothewind
30. Comment #33047 by CJ on April 19, 2007 at 4:06 am
30 weefree wrote:Fundmentalist atheist intolerance is just as dangerous as religious.
If there were a group who gathered together, espoused atheism as the only true path and carried out terrorist attacks on religious people simply because they did not agree with their beliefs I would agree with weefree's comment.
However I have seen no evidence of such a group and I also think that no such group could ever exist. This is because the atheist has no God to defend. We have no axe to grind that our God is better than your God. We have no heaven to go to therefore no need to guarantee entrance via an act of martyrdom. You can't offend my God, I don't have one.
If I were to choose to take the life of another person I would have no one to blame but me. I could not excuse the murder by saying I was doing it for a higher cause. I could not justify it because I was simply offended at your criticism of my point of view. I could not bring my children up to hate others simply for holding a misguided belief.
No, the worst a fundamentalist atheist could do is really, really disagree with your point of view. Hardly up there with the Spanish Inquisition is it?
Other Comments by CJ
31. Comment #33052 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 4:29 am
Atheists don't respond to Christian indoctrination by killing them.Muslims kill Christians.
Islam is the religion of violence.
Muhammad is the example.
Other Comments by Deimos
32. Comment #33054 by NJS on April 19, 2007 at 4:30 am
"Let me get this straight. You are saying that all gang murders, rapes, violence is done by religious people"Judging by the predominance of the religious leanings of prison inmates in America thats not a bad analysis.
Of course nobody is really saying that but the Stalin/Mao response doesn't work for me. Both created regimes which were pseudo-religious in nature and suffered from the same intolerance.
The suggestion is somehow omne of "thats whay you'd get" - not so - Atheists now are suggesting a secularism which is based on "keep it in private" - not the active opression of faith as happened under those regimes.
Other Comments by NJS
33. Comment #33058 by Deimos on April 19, 2007 at 4:39 am
To be clear, Muhammad founded a violent religion. I disagree with 'keeping religion private'. Islam is oppression. Surely it isn't oppression to prevent Muslims from practising Islam. Is it oppression to prevent a child from developing the mentality and justification from Muhammad's teachings that it is ok to kill their sister because she converted to Christianity or having an abscence of believe in God?Other Comments by Deimos
34. Comment #33059 by pissinintothewind on April 19, 2007 at 4:43 am
weefree, gang murders are about territory or pecuniary advantage,rape about sexual dominance,the thugs of Mao and Stalin for communism. Many of the people who commit/committed these outrages are atheist, but with the odd exception non of this done for atheism.As for the religious claiming they are killing in the name of god thats not right they ARE killing for THEIR god.Other Comments by pissinintothewind
35. Comment #33061 by John Turner on April 19, 2007 at 4:46 am
Wee FreeI think you should check out the videos that this kid from virginia recorded before the killings. From what i remember seeing on the news, he was talking about his soul being hurt, and wanting to die like jesus did.
Other Comments by John Turner
36. Comment #33064 by epeeist on April 19, 2007 at 4:49 am
Comment #33054 by NJS
Of course nobody is really saying that but the Stalin/Mao response doesn't work for me. Both created regimes which were pseudo-religious in nature and suffered from the same intolerance.
It doesn't work for me either, what the weefree is using is petitio principii, the fact that Mao and Stalin were atheists doesn't mean that they killed because of their atheism.
Other Comments by epeeist
37. Comment #33065 by GodlessHeathen on April 19, 2007 at 4:50 am
All the church burnings I can find in Norway are related to "Satan worship" and heavy metal music, nothing at all about atheists.Stalin and Mao, always paraded out for this, and their governments had an ugly dogma that set humans as property of the state and from that came their ability to rationalize as moral the wholesale slaughter. It wasn't their atheism, but their political ideology that prompted their atrocities.
The fact is, there is no ideology or dogma in atheism suggesting killing religious folks is something to consider - atheism itself has no ideologies.
When someone kills because they hate religion (or simply goes on an anti-religious tirade while killing) it really is because they're nutters. They originated the idea themselves.
Religion, on the other hand, often does have dogma suggesting (in some cases, ordering) the killing of others.
Where it's perfectly possible for a group of atheists to get such an idea in their heads and act on it... well, I don't really know why this is an arguable point. Humans are humans and humans are capable of great evil as well as good.
The idea that a society based on careful, rational moral choices can flourish better than one based on dogmatic, ancient, prejudiced values strikes most free-thinking folk as highly probable. This sometimes gets translated into "rational=superior" in rather irrational ways, which is what I think weefree is responding too.
Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
38. Comment #33067 by sheepscarer on April 19, 2007 at 4:56 am
I agree that religious people do have the right to practice their religion, in private. I respect that right, however, I am sure you would not want me to lie and say that I respect your actual religious beliefs, because I cannot in truth say that. Therefore in not respecting the content of your beliefs, while respecting the right for you to be able to practice your beliefs, I will criticise those beliefs but support your right to practice them.
I agree with this but there will always be inherent conflict here: as a biology teacher I was often asked by students whether god existed and if not what was behind all the different religious explanations of life on the planet. Of course, I had to be honest and report that god does not exist and that religion is mythology. (Remember before you raise your hands in alarm at my 'dogmatic evolutionism' that a reverse of this view is given everyday to children and it is inculcated at every opportunity via the media etc.) I'm sure my Muslim, Christian, Hindu students were deeply offended but I reserve the right to offend.
If you happened on some 'primitive' tribal community where an easily treatable illness was being 'cured' by some mystic shaman surely resulting in the death of the patient or a seizure was regarded as possession by the devil and the poor innocent was to be burned alive; is it blasphemous or disrespectful to intervene? Respect of superstition and superstitious practice is fraught with danger and only education will resolve these conflicts.
Other Comments by sheepscarer
39. Comment #33069 by GodlessHeathen on April 19, 2007 at 5:03 am
38. Comment #33061 by John Turner on April 19, 2007 at 4:46 amWhere would one find these videos?
Wee Free
I think you should check out the videos that this kid from virginia recorded before the killings. From what i remember seeing on the news, he was talking about his soul being hurt, and wanting to die like jesus did.
Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
40. Comment #33070 by CJ on April 19, 2007 at 5:03 am
Re 33 WeefreeI think what I am trying to say (and I hate typing hence the slow response) is this.
People who kill are either psychopaths or are mislead by charismatic psychopaths. The justification for killing, the meme if you like, is irrelevant. The psychopath, be it Mohamed or Starlin creates a self justifying set of ideas that support their world view and that permits them to behave in a self gratifying fashion and sod the consequences!
However, the ultimate justification for any activity is God. You can't argue with that trump card because it is by definition beyond logical reasoning. It therefore is the easiest and strongest card to play or to attack, usually by using your own God. But as you say there have been times where it has suited the tyrant to vilify religion to get their own way e.g. Hitler, Starlin and Mao.
My "nice middle class western individualism" (lucky me) does not blind me to the atrocities carried out around the world or the stated aims of the perpetrators. To that end I can see greed for power and paranoia driving Starlin to kill more Russians than Hitler did Jews. But if we were all afflicted with "nice middle class western individualism" the world would not be as dangerous as it is.
If one believes in God then any potential atrocity is justifiable and it does not matter if God really exists or not. As there is no evidence for the existence for God I for one would rather attempt to live a good life (no killing, rape, thugery etc) and try and stop people killing each other in the name of a delusion.
Other Comments by CJ
41. Comment #33072 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 19, 2007 at 5:04 am
Fundmentalist atheist intolerance is just as dangerous as religious. I love it when you guys say this. Enjoy my Dogma video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYqWTgwVx9k
Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen
42. Comment #33074 by pissinintothewind on April 19, 2007 at 5:09 am
Weefree, re the attacks on churches in Norway,there IS a difference between satanism and atheism even though in your mind there may not be.Other Comments by pissinintothewind
43. Comment #33077 by newatheist on April 19, 2007 at 5:20 am
Weefree you said - "Of course he was 'nuts' and I guess if he had written about how his 'love of God' had lead him to kill people the article would have been up here pronto."
Mental illness is mental illness. From what I've seen of this site I imagine its publishers would recognise that fact, even if the killer's rant was religious. There's enough real religious crap in the world to take aim at without cheap shots like that. This guy was a real nutcase, not a real atheist.
Godless, I flicked to a newspaper site www.theage.com.au. They had video links but I didn't follow. I saw the guy's reference to Jesus on the nightly news. Down, weefree. I don't.
Other Comments by newatheist
44. Comment #33085 by funkyderek on April 19, 2007 at 5:47 am
"The Zirve publishing house, which the Turkish media says is owned by two South Africans, Gert Martinus de Lange and Stephen Smithdorf, had been the target of nationalist protests for allegedly distributing Bibles and proselytising."Nationalist protests? Yeah, right!
Other Comments by funkyderek
45. Comment #33088 by pissinintothewind on April 19, 2007 at 6:23 am
Weefree, something of an aside and a question. The good christians of the westboro baptist church have pledged to picket the funerals of those murdered at Virginia Tech and the website states :- "The lord YOUR god sent a crazed madman to shoot your children,and he didnt miss." Its obviously not my god, is it yours and will you be going?Other Comments by pissinintothewind
46. Comment #33095 by SRWB on April 19, 2007 at 6:50 am
Weefree,I am not aware of any atheist book(s) that espouses killing non-believers. Are you? But I do know of a few books, supposedly written by God, proclaiming that killing non-believers is right and just.
What's your take on that? And don't bother trying to justify it by saying it's all about misinterpretation.
Other Comments by SRWB
47. Comment #33096 by John Turner on April 19, 2007 at 6:51 am
Heres some of the clips released of the videos that the kid from virginia made before the killings.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMhl7R9Ng-s&mode=related&search=
Other Comments by John Turner
48. Comment #33100 by scottishgeologist on April 19, 2007 at 7:31 am
weefree mentioned the Norwegian church burnings. These were done by self styled HM "Satanists" In other words, they got rid of one delusion and latched onto another. Of course, for us people of reason, there is no evidence of "Satan" whatsoever. However, weefree believes in him.Tell me, what is Satans weight, height, colour, refractive index, specific gravity, specific heat capacity? Any albedo effect? Or is he totally "dark"? Does he orbit the Sun? Moon? Zeta Reticulli?
Could try applying the same tests to "God" you'd get the same results: zilch, zero, nothing, neoni.
But back to Norway. Actually, weefree reckons its a cool sort of place. He wrote this (talking about a Norwegian financialist):
"I don't know if he is a Christian but he certainly operates in a much more Christian system and country than we have. If Santa was to visit me this Christmas I would ask for two things – firstly that Murdo Fraser (vice-President of the Scottish Conservatives) and Alex Salmond (leader of the Scottish Nationalists) would unite and lead Scotland to being an independent nation with a Scandinavian sense of moral rectitude and secondly that Knut Kjaer would take over the disastrous Free Church pension fund so that we would have a Church left and I would get a pension. "
Weefree, I like your longing for Scotland to be like Norway. Norway, like the other Scandinavian countries is among the most secular in Europe. And also among the most societally UN-dysfunctional.
Is there a connection? Perhaps we should be told... there is you know - its here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
49. Comment #34211 by JamPal on April 23, 2007 at 2:06 pm
weefree:Full on straw man argument. Putting words into Athiests mouths does not vindicate the terrible events in Turkey. Or any other disgusting crime committed in the name of one God or another.
Other Comments by JamPal
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'The Enemies of Reason: The Uncut Interviews' DVD
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'Richard Dawkins: Appearances & Events 2007-2008' DVD
'Enemies of Reason' DVD
'Root of All Evil?' DVD
'Root of All Evil? The Uncut Interviews' DVD
'Growing Up in the Universe' DVD
'Voices of Science' DVD
'The Four Horsemen' DVD
'Break the Science Barrier' DVD
1. Comment #32905 by Damien White on April 18, 2007 at 4:35 pm
"Thou Shalt Not Kill". It's apalling what happens when two movements who live by this creed get together. Utter hypocracy.My condolences go to the victims. No-one should be killed for their beliefs, whatever they are.
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