1. Comment #33266 by Gordon Brown on April 19, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Oh please, let me be the first to comment here. Bullshit, bullshit, BULLSHIT! An exemplary straw-man argument if ever there was one. Besides, D'Souza's claim that no atheist has visited this horrible story is just false. It's already been addressed on the site where Sam Harris posted his piece on Pascal's Wager...if only D'Souza had the energy and the patience to check it out.

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2. Comment #33268 by Jimill on April 19, 2007 at 7:00 pm

Atheist don't strike me as the type of people who would use an incident like this to promote their beliefs or their agendas. That would be insensitive and pretty insulting to the victims and their families, wouldn't it?

Surprisingly, he never asked where the Atheists were when the WTCs fell.

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3. Comment #33269 by sankekorafi on April 19, 2007 at 7:02 pm

I commented on the Article:

As many have already pointed out, we atheists don't come running in because we think everyone should be given the space to mourn as they please. This is the worst moment to come in and try to convert people to ANY cause, religious, nonreligious, or irrelevent to religion. And whatever we atheists find to comfort ourselves, it has nothing to do with god and religion at all. Why should we say something about atheism here, when what we really turn to has nothing to do with atheism? We should express our sympathy for the families and friends of the dead, along with the entirety of Virginia Tech on this loss.

Incidentally, look on any atheist blog or forum in america and you will find our reaction to these events; our horror, shock, and sympathy.

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4. Comment #33270 by Gordon Brown on April 19, 2007 at 7:03 pm

[Teapot-dammit, I'm so angry at D'Souza right now that I couldn't resist posting a follow-up...]

Memo to Mr. D'Souza...please check out this chillingly prescient essay:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god1.htm

Other Comments by Gordon Brown

5. Comment #33272 by Chris_Webster on April 19, 2007 at 7:18 pm

My counter to Dinesh D-Souza:

Where was "The Big Cheese" when the heavily armed paranoid schizophrenic man, who wanted to die like Jesus, was running amok?

Is it possible for an omniscient and omnipotent entity to be too busy?

Other Comments by Chris_Webster

6. Comment #33273 by bruce on April 19, 2007 at 7:20 pm

To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community.

I'm confused. Nothing against Richard, I know he is a very eloquent speaker, but why would VT invite Richard Dawkins to speak to the grieving community??? Wouldn't they rather have people who are familiar and influential within the community?

What this tells me is that if it's difficult to know where God is when bad things happen, it is even more difficult for atheism to deal with the problem of evil.

Wow, this guy really picked a bad example to try and bash atheists and materialism. It looks like the guy had had mental problems for a while and didn't get adequate treatment. Plus, because there were no background checks, he was able to legally purchase guns even with his past history. That's a pretty easy explanation for this problem of evil. I don't see where the difficulty is?

What a complete douchebag.

Other Comments by bruce

7. Comment #33278 by Russell Blackford on April 19, 2007 at 7:23 pm

D'Souza's insensitive opportunism is simply breathtaking.

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8. Comment #33280 by firemancarl on April 19, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Here's my reply

Uh, are you kidding me? You want to know where we athiests are? We are mourning right along side those who have lost.

I would love to know where your God or Gods are/were while this nutjob was mowing people down, some of who undoubtedly were Christians.

I am not sure what you mean by "rushing in" like an army? Like a hero to save the day? Thats just silly nonsense.

What you should be doing is asking your god why he let something like this happen again.......

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9. Comment #33281 by atheist_peace on April 19, 2007 at 7:26 pm

Christians always expect God to heal them after events like this tragedy. Why don't they ever ask "Why did God allow this to happen?"

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10. Comment #33282 by dimon on April 19, 2007 at 7:28 pm

Please read eloquent and beautiful response to D'Souza's propaganda piece at dkos: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/19/18451/0971

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11. Comment #33284 by filthyatheist on April 19, 2007 at 7:37 pm

Dinesh D'Souza's latest book was called 'The Enemy at Home". In it he proposed a pact between right wing nutjobs in the US with right wing nutjobs in the Islamic world who share the same values.

Here is an extract from the devastating review in the New York Times Book Review by Alan Wolfe:-

" So let this "decent" liberal make perfectly clear how thoroughly indecent Dinesh D'Souza is. Like his hero Joe McCarthy, he has no sense of shame. He is a childish thinker and writer tackling subjects about which he knows little to make arguments that reek of political extremism. His book is a national disgrace..."

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12. Comment #33286 by Jef on April 19, 2007 at 7:39 pm

Does religion really console people at a time like this?

Had one of my children been a victim of this terrible and senseless tragedy, any man who took it as an opportunity to spread the 'good news' of God's love for us all, or sought to console me with the solemn affirmation that it was all part of some divine plan, would do so at very serious risk of personal injury.

Nothing anyone says can be any real consolation to those who have lost their loved ones. I can only empathise. Anyone able to make real sense of something so senseless would be a greater man than I, but those who try to simulate that knowledge with sugar-coated nonsense and false hope are charlatans who demean humanity.

At least atheists have the decency to not try to give answers where there can be none.

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13. Comment #33288 by Logicel on April 19, 2007 at 7:43 pm

D'Souza can be depended on to keep on saying egregiously vicious and stupid words, which is great--this latest diatribe of his is causing even Christians to protest! Keep up the good work, D'Souza.

Other Comments by Logicel

14. Comment #33292 by Daedalus on April 19, 2007 at 7:49 pm

This guy is an idiot. That's like saying I can't enjoy my breakfast without assuming the cornflakes I eat have cosmic significance.

Other Comments by Daedalus

15. Comment #33293 by Daedalus on April 19, 2007 at 7:50 pm

Double post.

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16. Comment #33295 by Daedalus on April 19, 2007 at 7:51 pm

For the record, Cho compared himself to both Jesus and Moses in his videos.

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17. Comment #33302 by Big T on April 19, 2007 at 8:10 pm

When D'Souza wrote that the lifestyles of Americans invited the 9/11 attacks, a writer for Esquire magazine was so outraged, he challenged D'Souza to a fistfight in the pages of the magazine. Dinesh D'Souza is nuttier than Ann Coulter, and not worth taking seriously.

Other Comments by Big T

18. Comment #33303 by ricb on April 19, 2007 at 8:12 pm

It is interesting that people like D'Souza love to exhibit an astounding lack of knowledge for the scientific principles involved. Anyone who has a mild understanding of biochemistry and/or may suffer (or intimately knows someone who suffers) from disorders such as dipolar disorder or ADD/ADHD can easily understand how molecules work on other molecules to produce certain effects including how some idiots think that they are God or doing God's work.

Also it seems that some people believe that there is an inherent idea called evil. Remember that this is just a human constructed label which we attach to things we intensely dislike and has no real corresponding element outside our emotions.

Furthermore, if there is such a benevolent God as many claim, why did he not act to stop this event from happening? An omnipotent god could quite easily have caused an accident whereby this gun-toting idiot would have met his demise before killing 32 innocent people. What excuses does D'Souza et al have for the inexcusable inactions of their omnipotent and benevolent god???

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19. Comment #33307 by Russell Blackford on April 19, 2007 at 8:31 pm

I left a comment on his blog, but maybe this wasn't the best thing to do: he seems to get some sort of weird pleasure from all the attention, even when it's people telling him that he's behaving disgracefully (as he certainly is on this occasion).

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20. Comment #33314 by tamersky on April 19, 2007 at 9:05 pm

wow... you give Dartmouth College a bad name.. though i must say, i've heard worse arguments being made by the new wave of dartmouth republicans...

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21. Comment #33326 by foxfire on April 19, 2007 at 9:46 pm

PZ Myers blasted him pretty well too, over at Pharyngula

Note the category: "Stupidity". Well said PZM!

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22. Comment #33328 by Fishpeddler on April 19, 2007 at 9:53 pm

I'm pretty much repeating the same ideas from earlier posts, but this article is so vile that I feel the need to say it in my own words.

Atheists recognize that many people have been cruelly robbed of their capacity to deal with painful events without reference to religion, so we give them the space to grieve in their own way. A time of great sorrow is a time to allow healing, not a time for exploitation of the bereaved to win converts or ideological points. Show some decency and some dignity Dinesh. That's what the atheists are doing.

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23. Comment #33331 by mandrellian on April 19, 2007 at 10:00 pm

Posted as response to the hateful punk's bile-expulsion at AOL:

"D'Souza, you are unbelievable. What an opportunistic & callous use of an unspeakable tragedy to push your agenda for the week. I've read some half-thought juvenile grade-school bigotry from you before but this takes the cake. In seeking to dehumanise atheists by asserting that they're all just sitting back, heartless, soulless and viewing this awful massacre as a mere mathematical anomaly, all you've done is shine a shameful, ironic spotlight on yourself and exposed yourself as a person as callous and as devoid of compassion as those you demonise. The response to your "article" by a teacher at VT pretty much sums up what a lot of us feel toward your "thought" on this topic.

Do you not think for one second that there may be atheists among the victims (or their families)? What would you say to them? "Too bad about your murdered son being destined for Hell and all, but he should've signed up to my magic book club"? Would you have the courage to say "where's your science now, you godless heathen?" or would you just type a few sentences of knee-jerk, hate-filled drivel from the distant safety of your keyboard (not to mention the safe distance of not having any loved ones at VT) and post it? The answer to that is clear. And you can bet those atheists who lost loved ones at VT are crying as hard as anyone else for their lost sons, daughters, brothers, sisters ... and they'd take as much offense to your "thoughts" as would a religious person if you'd asked "where's your saviour now, god-boy?"

Do you not think atheists know "evil" when they see it? Do you not think people who don't read magic books can see the dark stain left on all of humankind by this kind of tragedy just as clearly as those that do? Perhaps they see it clearer than the faith-based community, as they have no cataracts of faith obscuring their vision. They can certainly see the seeds of evil & hatred in mild rants like yours (and the less-than-mild but far less coherent rants by the many "godly" comrades you have in the media), for it is always the moderates in any clique that make it possible for the extremists and fundamentalists to survive at all. You are an enabler of the very evil and hatred you condemn and that you see amongst non-theists.

Modern science may not have all the answers to everything, but it certainly doesn't pretend to know (that is, to have faith in) things it doesn't know. It doesn't presume to soothe pained souls by cooing "it's god's plan" or "they're in a better place", because science doesn't know either of those things and will happily admit it. Those who use science (for science is merely a tool, not a philosophy or belief system and carries no preconceptions about, well, anything) refuse to believe things that they don't know. In that regard, your much-loathed "modern science" is a lot more honest, both with itself and with those it speaks to, than your religion or any religion. To demonise science itself is to not understand it. It's a tool of discovery, not a means of comfort, not a way of life, not a set of rules telling me what to do or what to eat or what to wear or who to worship. It's about time religionists like you realised that science is not competing with religion. It's discovering whatever in the world (and out of it) can be discovered and not hiding in the darkness of history, refusing to come out and look around.


M"

...

Was a bit knee-jerk myself actually, to be honest :) But this idiot consistently gets my back up. It's also Friday arvo here in Melbourne and it's a slow one, so I let him have my entire stream of consciousness :) I don't care if he reads it, I just had to say it to him.

M

Other Comments by mandrellian

24. Comment #33345 by mr-zero on April 19, 2007 at 11:17 pm

What I want to know is - where were the mathematicians?
That is just as relevant.

Z

Other Comments by mr-zero

25. Comment #33348 by krogercomplete on April 19, 2007 at 11:30 pm

"What I want to know is - where were the mathematicians?
That is just as relevant."

And every time there is a public gathering, there is never any talk of algebra or integral calculus, let alone analytic geometry. Even those who do happen to be mathematically inclined make no mention of these concepts.

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26. Comment #33355 by scooternyc on April 20, 2007 at 12:02 am

Perhaps the same delusions that Dinesh D'Souza seems to believe about god are the very ones that kept him and his cronies delude into thinking that Cho was really getting better, especially off his meds and would never kill anyone.

Well, now we have evidence about both subjects don't we.

Other Comments by scooternyc

27. Comment #33362 by Adrian on April 20, 2007 at 12:23 am

D'Souza's post does not deserve a response - so to emphasise the irony, here goes:

I assume this idiot means 'no previously known atheists' when he says: "Atheists are nowhere to be found." Or did he ask everyone in the public gathering?

The universe has "pitiless indifference", but then so does my kitchen table, does that say anything about any sentient beings that inhabit the Universe? Obviously not. We humans can occupy an unfeeling universe and apply our own feelings to our experiences. It's like saying the Universe feels no pain. Well I certainly do whenever I stub my toe against the indifferent table-leg. And what's the 'soul' to do with anything? With or without such an entity, the result is the same when it comes to feeling.

To no one's surprise, I have not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community either, so what does that say about anything? That they are excluding 61-year-old Englishmen to make a point?

And who says atheists do not recognise evil and good? The molecules he sarcastically refers to are constructed into sentient beings who have feelings and feel suffering – theist and atheist alike.
If this is the best modern religiosity has to offer, I think we need something more than modern religion.

Finally, I think he is excellent in giving atheists a good name and theists a bad one if this is the sort of drivel he produces. Any undecided rational bystander must conclude that it would be dangerous to follow this sort of logic.

Other Comments by Adrian

28. Comment #33368 by gcdavis on April 20, 2007 at 12:54 am

Where were the atheists?

Atheist's are people like everyone else
People of humanity who try to comfort the bereaved
People of wisdom who try to explain why it happened
People of power who to try prevent it happening again

So where were the christians?

They are busy trying to think up an excuse as to why god should let yet another tragedy happen.

Other Comments by gcdavis

29. Comment #33370 by scottishgeologist on April 20, 2007 at 12:59 am

Gordon Brown

That web link is spot on. There are some very good questions there for the believers. Of course when bad things happen then "he moves inm ysterious ways" or "His ways are above ours" or "he must have a special plan for them" or "god must have wanted them very badly" (That last one isplain ridiculous - God is impatient?)

But whjen good happens, then its "PTL" or " Isnt God good" or "prayer answered - God is faithful" or that cloyingly sickening one "Our god is good"

Whereas if they were to stand back, take their heads out their arses and see the truth for what it is - there is no god. Period.

In fact, the complete uslessness of prayer is , IMO, the nearest there is to proof that God doesnt exist. Despite the lies in the Bible about prayer being answered.

I dont know what it is, there is just something about praying that seems so childish, puerile, pathetic. Even when I followed the belief bullshit several years ago, I was never ever comfortable with it.

As a complete aside, we have a 50 day "prayer walk" taking place in Scotland right now. A bunch of charismatic nutjobs driving around and praying over various places. If you want a laugh, have a look at the blog:

http://connectingscotland.blogspot.com/

Delusional or what?

Of course in a couple of weeks time, it will all be forgotten, it will achieve nothing except give the deludees a warm cozy fuzzy feeling and they'll retreat into their comfort zone, secure in their delusion.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

30. Comment #33439 by GBile on April 20, 2007 at 5:35 am

The Dailykos story, mentioned in Comment 10 above, is a devastating answer to mr. D'Souza's verbal garbage.
Please read it and be moved as I was.

Other Comments by GBile

31. Comment #33450 by savroD on April 20, 2007 at 6:11 am

This is hate speech here, in it's purest form. The man is a bigot!

Other Comments by savroD

32. Comment #33466 by scooternyc on April 20, 2007 at 8:47 am

You know the difference between you, Dinesh D'Souza and the rest of your god-fearing types and the atheist you attempt to insult and demean?

Atheists don't need to go around bragging about their non-belief. Atheists don't need to flaunt their compassion. Atheists don't need to flaunt their generosity of spirit towards others.

We just live our lives as we know how.

You and your god fearing types can't shut up about how great you are; anyone that has to put that much energy into telling everyone how great they are, must not be that great.

Other Comments by scooternyc

33. Comment #33470 by ksskidude on April 20, 2007 at 9:22 am

Really?

Is this guy serious? It is tragic what happened at Vtech. I know we are all in agreement with this. People will mourn however they seem fit. But it is abhorent for this idiot to take an opportunity to attack atheism. It is completely unfounded and unnecessary.

Is it really that surprising in a world of 6 billion people, for one of them to snap and kill people? Honestly I am surprised that it doesn't happen more often.

In a world of probibilities, these sort of tragic and catastrophic events are bound to happen. Sad, but true.

Other Comments by ksskidude

34. Comment #33482 by steveroot on April 20, 2007 at 10:12 am

A couple of days ago I read on the "On Faith" site a clergy person's statement that the VT slayings were the result of the shooter's "sin", and that all he had needed to do was ask god to help him.

This provides some useful information: how many deaths it takes before god will intevene on his own. The answer obviously is "32". I can just imagine the old gray bearded one saying to himself, "1, 2, 3, 4... come on, guy, ASK ME... 5, 6, 7, 8... what's the matter with you? 9, 10..." and so on.

Luckily, he stops short of the number of the beast.
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

35. Comment #33491 by Phil on April 20, 2007 at 11:20 am

The fool's at it again:
http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/19/dawkins-message-to-mourners-get-over-it/

Other Comments by Phil

36. Comment #33498 by Thomas Mendip on April 20, 2007 at 12:08 pm

I've rarely seen something so well delineate the difference between the believers and non believers as these two articles.
The difference is in the moral compass we employ. Theirs is in a book, a nice black book with gold leaf pages, a book of unknown origin and dubious lineage, and they do tend to pick and choose its moral proscriptions, accepting the innocuous one about not stealing, rejecting the odious one about stoning adulterers, but still it's their way, this book, what they use to navigate the world.
We without faith have less precise tools; we must employ our intellects to penetrate the darkness, and our flesh must form our morality in the form of common humanity. We can never know what the ghost in the sky wants us to do; we can only know the human price of a thing. And that must make life so much more valuable to us.
We have no platitudes to offer in the face of mindless tragedy, only the certainty evil is a delusion and insanity a reality. And that the value of a human resides in his humanity, and his ability to do good in this world, this side of the grave, not the particular style with which he debases himself in front of a sky pixie in a hypothetical utopia on the other side of the grave.
I mind less D'Souza's attack on us (aren't we all used to this by now?) than his ghoulish use of this hideous, mindless tragedy as a springboard.

Other Comments by Thomas Mendip

37. Comment #33504 by Pallinn on April 20, 2007 at 12:41 pm

Oh my Zeus! Those retorts at newsbloggers are pure gold, even considering the sad circumstances I'm still laughing my ass off. If an article I wrote would get as thoroughly, well... violated I guess is the right word... I'm not sure how I'd get up in the morning.

But then again, with an article as genuinely despicable as that one, maybe brilliant retorts come a bit easier.

Other Comments by Pallinn

38. Comment #33509 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Atheists were n't present at the shooting and were powerless to act even if they were.They get the blame for not consoling the victims.
God was there when the act was committed and had the power to prevent it. He gets the credit for consoling the victims.
Makes sense to me.

Other Comments by the great teapot

39. Comment #33517 by ligfietser on April 20, 2007 at 1:10 pm

"To no one's surprise, Dawkins has not been invited to speak to the grieving Virginia Tech community."

I've heard they didn't invite McGrath either. Or the pope. Or the gardener, or the chief.

Other Comments by ligfietser

40. Comment #33525 by nepeta on April 20, 2007 at 1:41 pm

oh my god! (interjection)

Other Comments by nepeta

41. Comment #33583 by tony the coastie on April 20, 2007 at 4:28 pm

Give a guy a gun, tell him he is immortal, and his sins will be forgiven. Why is religion harmless?

Other Comments by tony the coastie

42. Comment #33617 by chrisrkline on April 20, 2007 at 6:07 pm

If this is a double post, sorry.

Here is good response to D'Souza.

http://barefootbum.blogspot.com/2007/04/to-bear-with-unbearable-sorrow.html

Other Comments by chrisrkline

43. Comment #33654 by bouwe on April 20, 2007 at 11:15 pm

Comment #33331 by mandrellian

As a fellow Melbournite, I really enjoyed your post.

Also-M

Other Comments by bouwe

44. Comment #33662 by Goodwithwood on April 21, 2007 at 12:34 am

At my brother's funeral I had to be restrained from hitting the first motherfucker who said "it was god's will". And the second.

GWW

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

45. Comment #33692 by FXR on April 21, 2007 at 6:24 am

Whenever there is death religion lands like a vulture to feed itself on the suffering and in this case to caw at the lark while gorging.

In Ireland no TV report of any tragedy, from car accident to missing trawler, passes without the appearance of a cleric.

I've complained time and time again to our national TV station about this problem.



Other Comments by FXR

46. Comment #33730 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 21, 2007 at 12:18 pm

Virginia Tech being used and abused by the faithheads. : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o9uNtvFSxYM

No comments, no video responses!!!

A few of us co-operated online to make the following response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_z9WgV5jkQ

If you think it is a good one,
please help to promote it in whatever other fora you frequent.
We should not have to sit idly by, while this juvenile drivel is spouted as truth.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

47. Comment #33821 by GoodbyeGodNZ on April 22, 2007 at 2:30 am

That Dinesh D'Souza surely is a weird little arab.

Other Comments by GoodbyeGodNZ

48. Comment #34158 by Blue Monster 65 on April 23, 2007 at 11:51 am

Well, he IS paid to write this kind of bs, so what would you expect? Frankly, I'll bet he's as big a jackass in person as he is in print. You just wonder what kind of deep-seated psychological scars he's got to come up with such drivel.

And how much does it pay? :)

Woof! - Scott

Other Comments by Blue Monster 65

49. Comment #34771 by coolwainy on April 25, 2007 at 7:23 am

'It is hardly surprising that Dinesh D'Souza is once again not only profoundly mistaken but also deeply offensive', Mr Dawkins comments in his customary innocent tone. What hypocrisy! The vast majority of the God Delusion is deeply offensive to its critics (not to mention misinformed, biased, irrelevant to the argument and bitter). It's a breath of fresh air to see someone actually talking sense on this site in the form of Mr D'Souza - please let's have more articles like it. The majority of posts on this site have completely missed the point or are in fact offensive themselves when that's exactly what they are accusing Mr D'Souza of.

Other Comments by coolwainy

50. Comment #41711 by Riley on May 16, 2007 at 4:22 pm

FYI: Dinesh D'Souza is an American Enterprise Institute Fellow and former senior domestic policy analyst for the George W. Bush White House.

He is just one more reason why I say: The American Enterprise institute is a leading force behind the religious wedge being driven into American society.

read more here: The American Enterprise institute's record on promoting religion in government

Other Comments by Riley