1. Comment #33377 by scottishgeologist on April 20, 2007 at 1:10 am

"The evidence is they were not Christian. God does not do that to his servants," a church spokesperson told CBS news

Eh? So Christians dont get killed?

So much for the "blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church" and also these guys who were murdered in Turkey.

These guys need locking up

All this "hate " talk.

When RD was talking to that nutjob "jew turned muzzie" in the "Root of all Evil", the guy said he "hated atheists" Dawkins said "he didnt hate anyone"

Seems like Love and Fundieism are mutually exclusive.

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2. Comment #33378 by mickghost on April 20, 2007 at 1:11 am

I cannot stand church groups who use tragedies to push thier own agenda.
It really is scary how many nut cases there are that can try to blame the victims for their own murder.

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3. Comment #33379 by padster1976 on April 20, 2007 at 1:20 am

The Bush's administration often has a singular viewpoint on how to interpret human rights. Yet there must be some way to protect the families of those killed!

As America is a democrasy/ plutocracy, there is still a secular way to deal with these people.

Obviously, simply shouting them down would only add fire to their rhetoric however, as in the Dover trial of '06, let them have their day in court to fully voice their opinion and let them have due process.

Its a safe bet that the damning that ID got from Dover, will be meted out for them as well.

These people has something to say, let them have and see if they're humiliated or not.

We had a program here on the BBC in the UK where the reporter spent some time with the family.

90% of the time they were a normal family yet theres the 1 facet of their lives that was just pure hate. It all comes from the grand-daddy. Get him in court and we'll see what he has to say.

Guaranteed laughs!

Other Comments by padster1976

4. Comment #33382 by Rtambree on April 20, 2007 at 1:34 am

Hmmm - how can we get more publicity and stir up more controversy? I know, we'll picket the most sensitive high-profile events we can find and the media will hypocritically play along... putty in our hands.

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5. Comment #33387 by will young on April 20, 2007 at 1:51 am

As vile and deplorable as this religiosity is, it does serve towards its self destruction. Somebody somewhere will have their eyes opened and begin thinking because of these cretins - at least one can hope!

Two of his daughters are lawyers and they haven't skipped a hateful beat because of it. As funny as it most certainly would be to
drag him into court I don't think it would phase ol' Pop a bit. In fact he would find glory in it whatever the outcome as maniacally stupid as he is.

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6. Comment #33391 by Bremas on April 20, 2007 at 2:21 am

Okay, I'm done with this shit.
I had a long diatribe. Just go there and talk to these women who want out. It can be done.

Other Comments by Bremas

7. Comment #33401 by GeneMachine on April 20, 2007 at 2:59 am

Re: Comment #33378 by mickghost:

"I cannot stand church groups who use tragedies to push thier own agenda."

Are there any that don't ??

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8. Comment #33403 by Eventhorizon on April 20, 2007 at 3:08 am

Many gay people had heard of this family years ago when they picketed the funeral of Matthew shephard to which the media paid little attention.
Its wasnt until they started protesting at the funerals of soldiers that somebody decided something should done!
Sorry, I had to get that off my chest

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9. Comment #33404 by k1mgy on April 20, 2007 at 3:08 am

The headline should read "Virginia", not "VT" which abbreviates Vermont. Although Vermont has a rather liberal gun law it has not suffered this level of violence.

--

The alleged humans who make up the "Westboro Baptist Church" are semi-corporeal proof of exactly the sorts of dangers which Professor Dawkins points out in his book. Particular mention ought be given the indoctrination of children (the photo above as brilliant illustration) which for this group really goes beyond the almost-innocent "child abuse" that Dawkins refers to, because of the actions it engenders.

Suppressing the hate speech of WBC will of course know no boundary and therefore be quick to shut off even reasoned debate (although if there were ever an argument for a "free speech zone" they are certainly candidates), so I say let these true nut cases continue on. Eventually, over time, they will dwindle and go away, as do other nasty things such as mosquitoes at a picnic.

To me, WBC are analogs to an aggressive male character type - one who puffs themselves up in every quarter simply out of their own inner insecurity. You will find these in every sphere of life, particularly in males who have gained "success" in business and politics. They turn out quite smaller than one might imagine, like the little pipsqueak behind the curtain in The Wizard of Oz. In WBC's case media attention tends to amplify - creating an illusion of power - but may well hasten their end.

These are people who the phrase "get a life" was made for. It's very sad that - because they are in so deep - likely nothing will have the power to pull them back to reality, not even the sorrow and hatred that they generate from the defenseless victims of this horrific tragedy in the US.

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10. Comment #33412 by grolaw on April 20, 2007 at 3:47 am

Fred Phelps, the head of WBC, is a disbarred attorney (stole from his trust) and has been all over the place with this kind of barbarity because he is receiving outside funding.

Whatever else they may be, I have found one easy way to make them go away - engage any of them (though the younger women are easier targets) and discuss how difficult it mist be to have to travel so far to give their message. That hotels are expensive - how do they afford to come to XXX place and tell us the truth. Invariably you will hear how they travel together and how the women and men are segregated in different hotel rooms.

Ask if it isn't difficult to be separated from spouse and the response is always "no" not when doing "god's work" - ask if spouse is in the other hotel room and spouse always is (these people are all extended family of Fred Phelps).

Then point out that it seems very gay to segregate married couples into "boys and girls" at the hotel. Act shocked as you realize that this is a gay hate group masquerading as straight and tell them that they should read their own signs!

I've had several of them run away from me - and I never raised my voice or gave them any reason to believe that I wasn't on their side until I point out the implications of their strange lifestyle. They are so homophobic that they simply can't take any analysis that suggests they might be gay!

I'm an attorney in Kansas City. A slippery slope argument leading them into questioning their sexual identity drives them totally over the edge - every time.

Other Comments by grolaw

11. Comment #33414 by steveroot on April 20, 2007 at 3:50 am

9. Comment #33404 by k1mgy on April 20, 2007 at 3:08 am
The headline should read "Virginia", not "VT" which abbreviates Vermont. Although Vermont has a rather liberal gun law it has not suffered this level of violence.

In this case, "VT" = "Virginia Tech". A bit confusing, but most people will figure it out. Except these slime mold protesters from WBC.
Steve

Other Comments by steveroot

12. Comment #33422 by Nails on April 20, 2007 at 4:13 am

10. Comment #33412 by grolaw on April 20, 2007 at 3:47 am

Fred Phelps, the head of WBC, is a disbarred attorney (stole from his trust) and has been all over the place with this kind of barbarity because he is receiving outside funding.

Whatever else they may be, I have found one easy way to make them go away - engage any of them (though the younger women are easier targets) and discuss how difficult it mist be to have to travel so far to give their message. That hotels are expensive - how do they afford to come to XXX place and tell us the truth. Invariably you will hear how they travel together and how the women and men are segregated in different hotel rooms.

Ask if it isn't difficult to be separated from spouse and the response is always "no" not when doing "god's work" - ask if spouse is in the other hotel room and spouse always is (these people are all extended family of Fred Phelps).

Then point out that it seems very gay to segregate married couples into "boys and girls" at the hotel. Act shocked as you realize that this is a gay hate group masquerading as straight and tell them that they should read their own signs!

I've had several of them run away from me - and I never raised my voice or gave them any reason to believe that I wasn't on their side until I point out the implications of their strange lifestyle. They are so homophobic that they simply can't take any analysis that suggests they might be gay!

I'm an attorney in Kansas City. A slippery slope argument leading them into questioning their sexual identity drives them totally over the edge - every time.

Beautiful. i love it.
What I don't understand is the logic behind this proposed act; to picket the funerals because they might be gay (God doesn't do that to one of his own). I won't waste my time listing Christains who have been eaten by lions, crucified or burnt at the stake as witches or heretics - it isn't worth the effort.
But to cause misery - more misery - on the families of the deceased because there is a chance that they might be gay? Well that's just deplorable.

Other Comments by Nails

13. Comment #33424 by GodlessHeathen on April 20, 2007 at 4:25 am

What I don't understand is the logic behind this proposed act;

I see where your trouble is. =^.^=

It must be nice for the WBC sorts who base their whole life on their imagined sky daddy. Any manner of idea can be rationalized. Did something horrifically lethal happen to a person, that sky-daddy's omnipotence should have stopped? No sweat, it's just proof that person wasn't a real Christian. Did something horrifically lethal happen to one of our own? No problem; sky-daddy was just using an infidel to call home our own to their grand reward.

Ya can't lose!

Other Comments by GodlessHeathen

14. Comment #33425 by serrano on April 20, 2007 at 4:27 am

Grolaw, if you've seen "The Most Hated Family in America," the documentary about them available on YouTube, you'll see that there is nothing that could possibly make them go away. Maybe hope for some of the kids, but the adults will be doing this until the day they die. They're the only people in the world who are going to get into heaven after all!

Other Comments by serrano

15. Comment #33427 by macronencer on April 20, 2007 at 4:35 am

Phelps and his drones are as evil as the gunman. What else to say? I hope someone pickets /their/ funerals when they finally leave us.

Other Comments by macronencer

16. Comment #33428 by PaulJ on April 20, 2007 at 4:44 am

padster1976 said:

We had a program here on the BBC in the UK where the reporter spent some time with the family.

You can find a trailer on YouTube:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O228AQRvcqQ
or get the whole thing via bittorrent.

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17. Comment #33435 by phasmagigas on April 20, 2007 at 5:21 am

of course the WBC is flawed in most respects but they do some things that some would find fitting. They push the religious righteous agenda so far as to beat many at their own game and so maybe encourage those peole to review their own religious views and infact to the average non believer their views are only slightly less extreme than many religious moderates views on heavenly exclusivity esp with regard to their own (very particular) religious brand. They have given Ted Haggard a hard time, i guess thats over his homosexual behaviour and not the fact that hes an arch hypocrite. I do give them credit for at least sticking to their guns and in fact risking life and limb, and with the upcoming school shooting picket i suspect that things could get very ugly indeed. Their views are seen by some as a type of treason and war on the US itself (freedom of speech anyone?)and as such lower the threshold for violence from otherwise 'normal' people.

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18. Comment #33437 by phasmagigas on April 20, 2007 at 5:27 am

interestingly enough a youtube video shows an australian man interviewing them 9hes from a chatshow i believe), he deliberately though half jokingly suggests that phelps son? is 'giving him the eye' indeed the interviewer physically touches him. THe interesting thing is that in the face of an overt homosexual advance/accusation the group start ineffectually start shouting 'pervert' etc at him and hes right there with them, id have expected a lightening bolt or two, anyway it just seemed that they were no 'more' angry with him than with 1000's of dead who they never even knew.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

19. Comment #33442 by Yorker on April 20, 2007 at 5:43 am

Perhaps another crazed gunman will show up and send the WBC vermin prematurely to heaven, it wouldn't surprise me and to be honest, it wouldn't disappoint me either.

Other Comments by Yorker

20. Comment #33444 by savroD on April 20, 2007 at 5:48 am

Is this free speech or yelling fire in a crowded theater?

Unfortunately for those holding funerals, I believe it's the former.

Other Comments by savroD

21. Comment #33446 by laks.84 on April 20, 2007 at 5:58 am

wish i had a gun... i would like to go to the picket with that... (i m not really serious ab that)

I am stupefied by this group of people... with so much of hatred... and i am shocked to see that kid holding one of those placards... does he know what it really means??

Other Comments by laks.84

22. Comment #33453 by phasmagigas on April 20, 2007 at 6:24 am

If any violence was directed at the phelps family it would be an interesting situation. You can bet those who commit/ed the acts will be christian and will be in part rationalisng it because they are christian and their less extreme version is the 'right' version.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

23. Comment #33456 by frikkenkids on April 20, 2007 at 7:38 am

I am amazed that there hasn't been a violent reaction to these folks in the past. They certainly seem to be trying to provoke just that by picketing funerals of millitary families.

"The evidence is they were not Christian. God does not do that to his servants,"
Given this statement, I have to wonder what their reaction would be to some of them being hurt or killed while protesting. Would that be sufficient to convince them that they are not god's servants? Or would they be martyrs? How would they be able to tell the difference between a slaughtered infidel, who died a horrible and sudden death and so was not a servant of god and a person who died a horrible and sudden death and was, therefore, a martyr?

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24. Comment #33457 by djmagaro on April 20, 2007 at 7:42 am

There's a fascinating (in a car-accident sort of way) biography of Fred Phelps on-line. Google "Addicted to Hate." This "God Hates Fags" campaign, which has mushroomed into a sort of "God Hates Everyone But Us" campaign is a relatively recent development in the disturbing, violent, and bizarre life of this family cult. Of particular interest are the two brothers who left the family cult and have managed to put their damaged lives back together.

Other Comments by djmagaro

25. Comment #33464 by lt_zippy2 on April 20, 2007 at 8:38 am

Mind you if someone did crash their demo and killed several of them they would then twist it around as vindication of what they were doing.

Mind you what I find most disturbing is what is happening to those poor kids. Brainwashing isn't half the problem. What if one of them grew up and actually discovered that they were gay? (mind you the way that they "protest too much" suggests that actually some of them already are!)

The thing that got me about the whole incident at the college though was after it happened Bush got on the wire and said that American have the right to bear arms AND everyone was praying for the victims and their families...as if that is going to do any good! 2p in the box.

Other Comments by lt_zippy2

26. Comment #33468 by Thrall on April 20, 2007 at 9:03 am

Quick! Someone tell Danish D'Sousa I found the christians at VT! Now if we could just find those athiests.

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27. Comment #33475 by JimmyJames on April 20, 2007 at 9:49 am

"Their extreme homophobia religious insanity has led them to protest at the funerals of servicemen and women killed in action."

Other Comments by JimmyJames

28. Comment #33493 by atheist_peace on April 20, 2007 at 11:48 am

When will Fred Phelps make his people drink the kool-aid?

Other Comments by atheist_peace

29. Comment #33494 by RabbitDynamite on April 20, 2007 at 11:49 am

Ahhhhh, the WBC: the lunatic fringe of the lunatic fringe.

Other Comments by RabbitDynamite

30. Comment #33507 by Janus on April 20, 2007 at 12:51 pm

Where are Christians when Bad Things happen?







Oh, there they are!

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31. Comment #33510 by poppea on April 20, 2007 at 12:58 pm

In response to: "The evidence is they were not Christian. God does not do that to his servants,"
Given this statement, I have to wonder what their reaction would be to some of them being hurt or killed while protesting. Would that be sufficient to convince them that they are not god's servants? Or would they be martyrs? How would they be able to tell the difference between a slaughtered infidel, who died a horrible and sudden death and so was not a servant of god and a person who died a horrible and sudden death and was, therefore, a martyr?


I watched the program a while ago, and this question was asked - "Would you rejoice if one of your family got cancer or was run over?" and the reply was something along the lines of "Yes. Absolutely. I think it's wonderful. I love cancer. Because God sent it."
Ouch.

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32. Comment #33513 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Come on chaps , this is a cheap shot.
These people no more represent xians than stalin represents atheists.

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33. Comment #33515 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Also how many died in Iraq on the same day.

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34. Comment #33516 by Liveliest Crib on April 20, 2007 at 1:05 pm

20. Comment #33444 by savroD on April 20, 2007 at 5:48 am:

Is this free speech or yelling fire in a crowded theater?

Unfortunately for those holding funerals, I believe it's the former.

It would depend. It could be somewhere in between, depending on precisely what the "protesters" do, and how they say what they say.

If all they do is stand in public places with signs, it would be free speech. If they speak hateful words to people emotionally distraught, knowing the effects they could cause, they begin to get into shadier territory. The more they border on disrupting proceedings, harassment, etc., the less their "speech" would be protected. If they go so far as to intentionally incite a riot, they'd be yelling fire in a crowded theater.

Other Comments by Liveliest Crib

35. Comment #33520 by krogercomplete on April 20, 2007 at 1:21 pm

To change the subject just slightly:

Have any fellow Americans been following the conservative reaction to the VT shootings as it pertains to gun control?

Liberals will champion this as an example of what happens in a society where it is too easy to get guns. Some of the more hardcore conservatives (Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Nugent, etc.) are using this as an example of what happens when average citizens are not permitted to carry weapons for defense. As Savage so eloquently put it, "this is what happens when children are taught all their lives not to fight back"; when something like this happens, you "take your glock and you blow them away!"

Normally, I would not really care about someone like Savage, but given that the DC circuit court of appeals struck down DC's handgun ban in March as a violation of the Second Amendment, this sentiment worries me. A federal court of appeals, for the first time in recent memory, weighed in on whether the 2nd amendment grants a PRIVATE right to bear arms. It is on its way to the Supreme Court and I have a feeling it will be affirmed. Strict gun control may be in serious jeopardy.

Other Comments by krogercomplete

36. Comment #33528 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 20, 2007 at 1:47 pm

33. Comment #33513 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Come on chaps , this is a cheap shot.
These people no more represent xians than stalin represents atheists.

Here's the thing. The Phelps and their ilk claim to speak for God. God fails to intervene, which is puzzling. Stalin you claim, speaks for Atheists, atheists have spoken out against Stalin, tried to kill him, resisted him in their limited human way.

My questions is, whats Gods excuse?

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

37. Comment #33532 by Fishpeddler on April 20, 2007 at 1:55 pm

Comment #33520 by krogercomplete
"Have any fellow Americans been following the conservative reaction to the VT shootings as it pertains to gun control?"

Yeah, it's revolting. The gist: if the students had been armed, they could have fought back. Presumably many lives would have been saved. I think that's likely true in this particular example. Now consider how many people would die in situations that generally do not lead to fatalities when people are unarmed: bar fights, domestic disputes, road rage, sporting events, and so on. When people can readily fire a gun instead of throwing a fist or a chair, people die. Humans are passionate creatures, often acting out anger upon one another. Why would we want everyone to be carrying something that makes an act of anger so much more lethal?

Wouldn't the simpler solution be to make it hard to access deadly weapons, especially for those mentally ill like the VT shooter? The 2nd amendment fanatics would say that the criminals will always find a way to get a gun. As long as there are 2nd amendment fanatics, that will probably be true. A textbook self-fulfilling prophecy.

Other Comments by Fishpeddler

38. Comment #33543 by EvolvedDNA on April 20, 2007 at 2:27 pm

The name "Phelps".. same name as on "Mission Impossible" I think... maybe he gets a message each day from God... then the bush catches fire to destroy the message.
I went to Westboro web site... scarry stuff ...they have to be the American Taliban.

Other Comments by EvolvedDNA

39. Comment #33547 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Brian

I do not claim Stalin speaks FOR atheists.
I do not need science or RD to give me strength.
I have recognised the horseshit of religion since I was 9 or 10. I will repeat what I said, these people represent xians no more than stalin represents atheists.
They are xians
Stalin was an atheist.
I do not wish to be compared to stalin anymore than the average xian (of whom I am not one) wants nor should be compared to this vulgar, foulmouthed,attention seeking fool.
I trust you understand my simple statement this time.

Other Comments by the great teapot

40. Comment #33550 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 20, 2007 at 2:49 pm

I do not wish to be compared to stalin anymore than the average xian (of who I am not one) wants nor should should be compared to this vulgar, foulmouthed,attention seeking fool.
I trust you understand my simple statment this time.

I understood it the first time, but I genuinely disagree. These people claim to represent a deity, and the Deity does not to dispute that. Case closed, they represent that Deity. This is just playing be their rules. Surely an all powerful God could intervene to remove a bunch of fraudulent tricksters?

Logic dictates that every Christian that claims the blessing of God represents him, unless God says otherwise. Atheists don't have to worry about that, luckily. Besides, the Phelps have a far sounder scriptural footing than most churches. God really does spend an awful lot of his time smiting people.

Logic tars these suckers all with the same brush, and we shouldn't be coy about saying that.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

41. Comment #33551 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 20, 2007 at 2:52 pm

Wouldn't the simpler solution be to make it hard to access deadly weapons, especially for those mentally ill like the VT shooter? The 2nd amendment fanatics would say that the criminals will always find a way to get a gun. As long as there are 2nd amendment fanatics, that will probably be true. A textbook self-fulfilling prophecy.

This is a source of utter bemusement to the rest of the world I think. Certainly most Europeans. You've summed it up nicely.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

42. Comment #33553 by the great teapot on April 20, 2007 at 3:04 pm

Brian

I see your point now.
Unfortunately, they (xians) will have the usual arguments of "without free will etc,etc.."

re Gun control. In the UK only criminals go to jail for fire arms offences.Give everyone guns and the jails will be full of jilted lovers and West Ham supporters.

Other Comments by the great teapot

43. Comment #33556 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 20, 2007 at 3:12 pm

re Gun control. In the UK only criminals go to jail for fire arms offences.Give everyone guns and the jails will be full of jilted lovers and West Ham supporters.

Exactly. Maybe what the US needs is to do a pilot. Some summer, arm everyone in the most gung ho red neck gun totin' state/city/county (Florida maybe) and see how that works out. The scientific method at it's best:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

44. Comment #33592 by Spinoza on April 20, 2007 at 4:44 pm

Someone get Children's Aid to remove the children from that cult, they're border-lining on having permanent harm done to them.

The younger children might still be salvageable.

This is CLEAR child abuse... they are willfully bringing their children into their twisted protests and harm is being done to them (see: getting hit by stuff thrown at them, and getting hit by cars, I think)

It's not JUST that they're evil.. Fred Phelps IS evil.. and the parents are ignorant AND evil. The children are just ignorant.

Just sad...

Other Comments by Spinoza

45. Comment #33596 by Yorker on April 20, 2007 at 5:02 pm

22. Comment #33449 by Beth

Violence is never the answer, and to wish it on anyone….

Hold on Beth, I'm not suggesting that someone shoots them, all I meant was that it was a possibility, people won't let them keep behaving in such a despicable manner forever; they cannot be reasoned with. Now I'll be even more honest, like everyone else I deplore what took place at VA Tech and I have the utmost sympathy for the families, but I didn't lose any sleep over the 32 innocent people who were killed, the world is not surprised to hear of another gun massacre in the USA, it's becoming more common. The USA is a failing society, everyone knows what must be done to fix it, but none have the courage to do it.

Reason and discussion are how a civilised people resolve their disagreements, not guns and ammo.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if that were so, unfortunately that's not the reality, violence is the ultimate sanction; even your President understands that.

Perhaps I'm alone in being honest about having no sympathy for WBC members who may be sent skyward quicker than they thought but I'm not troubled by that, why should I be? They revel in the fact that I and thousands of others will spend eternity being tortured simply for disagreeing with them. And you want me to be show shame and outrage if someone terminates them?

Wake up!

I could go on at length here but I'll conclude with this thought: we will never know the full story of what happened at VA Tech, the gunman snapped, but why? He committed a heinous crime, but the WBC spouting their vile hatred at grieving relatives of the deceased, are to my mind, not even the same species as me, I feel towards them as l would a herd of animals. If I was really hungry and there was a dead WBC'er lying around, I'd certainly give serious thought to eating it.:)

Other Comments by Yorker

46. Comment #33597 by A on April 20, 2007 at 5:03 pm

I love the Westboro Baptist Church.

A gift to reason, a gift to atheism, don't squander it, encourage them.

Other Comments by A

47. Comment #33599 by Yorker on April 20, 2007 at 5:10 pm

45. Comment #33592 by Spinoza

getting hit by stuff thrown at them..."

That's how it starts, next comes petrol bombs, it's not long before the bullets fly.

Other Comments by Yorker

48. Comment #33601 by krogercomplete on April 20, 2007 at 5:15 pm

"The USA is a failing society, everyone knows what must be done to fix it, but none have the courage to do it."

Explain. And what would it actually mean for the United States to "fail."

Other Comments by krogercomplete

49. Comment #33604 by Yorker on April 20, 2007 at 5:29 pm

49. Comment #33601 by krogercomplete

That would take me some time to put together and would be a lengthy post, much of what I would say has already been said by Noam Chomsky in his book "Failed States", which refers to the USA of course. If you're an open-minded person I encourage you to read it. I don't 100% agree with Chomsky, I think the USA's starting to fail, he thinks it already has.

Other Comments by Yorker

50. Comment #33605 by Bonzai on April 20, 2007 at 5:30 pm

>>Some of the more hardcore conservatives (Glenn Beck, Michael Savage, Nugent, etc.) are using this as an example of what happens when average citizens are not permitted to carry weapons for defense. As Savage so eloquently put it, "this is what happens when children are taught all their lives not to fight back"; when something like this happens, you "take your glock and you blow them away!"<<

Yeah, I have been hearing that too. These conservatives are truly idiotic. While the shooting in VA Tech was certainly horrific, it is not an everyday event to have a mass murderer on the lose. But if everyone starts carrying guns in school I can anticipate many minor disputes esculating to full blown shoot outs when hot heads got overcome by a moment's impulse. In addition there will certainly be a lot more gun related accidents.

On a different note, to be fair, nutjobs like Phelps is not your typical Christians. While the Westboro Baptist Church,--unrelatded to the mainstream Baptist Church,-- is truly revolting, it is nothing more than a freak show. Even mainstream rightwing evangelists wouldn't acknowledge them as Christians. So I don't agree that their presence somehow advertises for atheism. They may actually be a tempting strawman which distracts from more relevant critique against mainstream evangelism.

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