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Tuesday, April 24, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Shout your doubt out loud, my fellow unbelievers

by Matthew Parris, Times Online

Thanks to Noodly for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/matthew_parris/article1685452.ece

Christianity was part of my upbringing and education. Because I am fascinated by moral philosophy, enjoy reading the Bible and, as Private Parris in the Boys' Brigade, detested military drill, nautical knots, whiting-up my sash and polishing my brass belt-buckle, I have acquired a reasonable grounding in the other skill you could shine at in the BB: religious knowledge. I think religion, like politics, is tremendously important.

The trouble is, I'm sure religion is wrong. This drives me as a columnist into a curious dilemma. My subject is of interest mostly to those of my readers who are liable to be offended by me. One is left writing for a minority audience predisposed to take umbrage at what one says. Those who don't care for religion don't care to read about it.

The dilemma was brought home by readers' responses to a column I wrote on Maundy Thursday, inveighing against claims that a French nun has recently been cured of Parkinson's disease through invoking the name of the late John Paul II, and that this alleged miracle could lead to the possible canonisation of the late Pope. I have been deluged with letters, almost all from Christians, and overwhelmingly critical of the column.

Three strands of opinion in particular emerge from this fascinating pile of letters. The first insists that miracles do occur, that saints may be invoked and that the successful invocation of putative saints may be grounds for canonisation. Such assertions have been made by a number of Anglican correspondents. I should remind them that their own Church had something to say on this more than 400 years ago. Article 22 of the Thirty-Nine Articles states: "The Romish doctrine concerning . . . invocation of Saints, is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded on no warranty of Scripture." I rest my case.

The second strand is more tentative. "Why rule out the possibility?" sums up the thought, variously expressed to me. Things do occur for which there is no available explanation in Nature; in such cases is it not perfectly rational to accept that the divine explanation is at least a contender for the truth?

For the answer to this, I need only go back two-and-a-half centuries, to the greatest philosopher our islands ever produced: the Scot David Hume. Hume took a cool view of "the usual propensity of mankind towards the marvellous".

A miracle, began Hume (On Miracles, pt I), "may be accurately defined, [as] a transgression of a law of Nature by a particular volition of the Deity".

But "there is not to be found, in all history, any miracle attested by a sufficient number of men, of such unquestioned good sense, education and learning, as to secure us against all delusion in themselves." Forced to choose between doubting the evidence, and believing in a divine suspension of the laws of Nature, only someone already convinced that divine intervention occurs could opt for the miraculous as an explanation. Miracles cannot therefore be evidence of a divinity: belief in a divinity must be the evidence for miracles.

In consequence, Hume concludes (hinting at atheism with such sly elegance that no Edinburgh pharisee could pin it on him): "The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one."

But stop. Why should Hume, or Richard Dawkins, or lesser polemicists such as me, bang on about this? For heaven's sake, wail many of my correspondents (and this is the third strand in my pile of letters), what are you getting so het up about? You don't believe. Fine. Well why not shut up, then? Tell us about things you do believe in. Surely it is those who believe who should be proclaiming. How can one be a passionate non-believer, they ask, hinting that, like Saul, I may be battling against my own inner faith.

Proselytisers for atheism such as Richard Dawkins will be as familiar as am I with the lament. I heard it most memorably from a Conservative Chief Whip (urging me to pipe down about homosexuality) who remarked to me that he had never believed in God, but felt absolutely no imperative to jump to his feet in church and broadcast this fact to his astonished constituents.

How do we reply? An ad hominem response would be to remark that when the Church had the upper hand it was happy to persecute, imprison or behead non-believers and fight crusades against other religions. Now it has lost its boss status it simply asks us to keep our opinions to ourselves (but still wants laws to criminalise us for mocking its pretensions).

On the back foot at last, it discovers (first) a brotherhood between all its sects. Then as the situation deteriorates Christianity discovers within itself a respect first for Judaism (suddenly we are all "Judaeo-Christians"), then women with a Christian vocation, then for divorcees, and finally finds a common purpose with religions such as Islam, too (the "faith" community). Needs must.

And as the Devil (or falling church attendance) drives, these "members of the faith community" cease enforcing their moral imperatives upon a secular world and retreat into whimpering about their "freedom of conscience" to carry on persecuting the minority groups upon whose sinfulness they can still find a consensus. Freedom of conscience, my eye! If only there were an afterlife: Martin Luther would have loved Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor's protests. They don't like it up 'em.

As mainstream Christian church attendances fall farther still I predict that the Church of England, and finally the Roman Catholics, will be driven to conclude that they cannot even afford to make enemies of homosexuals, unmarried couples and family planners, and start welcoming them in too. I expect they'll call it the "love community". In truth it's the "can't afford to be choosy" community.

But there I go again. Getting passionate, fighting dirty. But we have a better argument than "you'd do the same to us if you could" — though they would, and until about half a century ago they did.

It is that they will again, unless we non-believers are watchful, and energetic and — yes — passionate. I hate ending up in scraps with nice Anglicans and thoughtful Catholics because the Church of England and intelligent Catholicism are not the problem. They are the best kind of Christians, but the best lack all conviction. It is the worst who are full of passionate intensity. Look at the evangelical movement in America, and to some extent, now, here. Look at the Religious Right in Israel. Look at fundamentalist Islam. What they share, what drives them, the tiger in their tanks, is an absolute, unshakeable belief in an ever-present divinity, with plans for nations that He communicates to the leaders, or would-be leaders, of nations. They are the very devil, these people, they could wreck our world, and their central belief in God's plan has to be confronted. Confronted with passion. Confronted because, and on the ground that, it is not true.

Disbelief can be passionate. Sometimes it should be. Agnosticism can be passionate. A sense that we lack certitude, lack evidence, lack the external command of any luminous guiding truth, may not always lead to lassitude, complaisance or a modest silence. Sometimes it should provoke a great shout: "Stop. You don't know that. You have no right."

I hit you, earlier on, with a burst of the admirable David Hume. But he was not always right. "Opposing one species of superstition to another," he wrote, "set them a-quarrelling; while we ourselves, during their fury and contention, happily make our escape into the calm, though obscure, regions of philosophy." No, David. Listen instead to Nietzsche. "This eternal indictment of Christianity," he said, "I will write on walls, wherever there are walls."

We who do not believe must be ready with our paintbrushes, our chisels and our cans of aerosol spray. Disbelief can be more than an absence of belief. It can be a redeeming, saving force.


Related: Matthew Parris's belief in passionate atheism (Responses)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/debate/letters/article1695273.ece

Comments 1 - 50 of 88 |

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1. Comment #34594 by _J_ on April 24, 2007 at 3:39 pm

 avatarGosh. First Mapantsula's response to Dinesh D'Souza and now this. All of a sudden my cup of magnificent 5-minute trumpet blasts for atheism runneth over. It's like Christmas (with obvious differences).

Other Comments by _J_

2. Comment #34601 by denoir on April 24, 2007 at 4:10 pm

 avatarThere are social consequences to widespread belief so it is perfectly natural to comment on those. In the UK it is certainly less relevant than say in Saudi Arabia or the US, but still can be interesting from an international perspective. I think that most European posters here for instance are more motivated by the international situation rather than their domestic ones. One might argue that we are wasting our time voicing our objections to something going on half across the world especially when there's plenty of pseudoscience and quackery going on at home and that needs to be defeated.

With modern communications however, a global problem can be at least as interesting as a local one – if you hear a person arguing that the earth is 6,000 years old, you will think he is an idiot regardless of where he happens to live. And it's hard not to comment although it's an easy way to set oneself up to really wasting time on something irrelevant that won't make any difference. This comment is a good example and I can't really find a good justification for it apart from perhaps it fulfills a need to vent my thoughts. The bottom line, me getting polemic about religion on an atheist website is truly a waste of mine and the readers' time. I'm trying to keep it on a meta level, but I'm pretty sure that it isn't really relevant. But hey - I'm apparently writing it and you are apparently reading it, so let's go on.

There are relevant cases for discussing atheism:


A very interesting thing is introducing the idea of disbelief in a religiously closed society. For somebody that has been praising God since birth and been in a society where everybody does the same, it must be quite a new experience to hear from a disbeliever. To the best of my knowledge no mainstream religion has ever avoided the temptation of divine intervention in the real world. Miracles are very popular, but more to the point are earthly rewards for believers and punishments for disbelievers. So it might be quite shocking for them to hear that an (from their perspective) otherwise normal and well adjusted citizen ha these heretic thoughts. And there seem to be no consequences - no smiting going on.

In Islamic countries for instance they are terrified of western influence - with good reason. The Koran promises all form of earthly goodies to the believers and that nasty things will happen to the infidels. At the same time they can see how western infidels in reality have a much better quality of life while their society is just lagging behind more and more. Quite corrosive to faith, I would believe.

So it depends on the context. Arguing on this site that miracles are nonsense is a waste of time. Doing the same thing in a religious society might open a few minds - at least in the form of showing people that there are really other options to the dogma that they have been indoctrinated with.

Then of course there's the reason cited often by Dawkins – to make closet disbelievers understand that they are not alone which is a solid reason. I'm not sure how well it works as I would think that their immediate surroundings are the primary reason for them being in the closet (family and friends). Knowing that there are other atheists in the society and in other parts of the world won't solve that local problem. But, I may be wrong.

Other Comments by denoir

3. Comment #34602 by MIND_REBEL on April 24, 2007 at 4:12 pm

 avatarThe truth of science is too powerful for the meme of religion to withstand. When religion is gone, then humans will finally be able to live logical, peaceful, harmonous lives like we evolved to. If you look at the way natives lived before the white man forced religion into thier minds they were some of the most peaceful, rationial beings without unequal distrubutions of wealth, violence, racism, sexism or any other irrationial memes that plagues theistic society.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

4. Comment #34604 by Devolution on April 24, 2007 at 4:14 pm

 avatarGreat article. It is so refreshing to see this type of journalism in the US. Even just a few years ago this type of discussion would be unimaginable in the media. Cheers to Matthew, Richard and everyone on this board, your truly doing the Lords work.

Other Comments by Devolution

5. Comment #34606 by denoir on April 24, 2007 at 4:28 pm

 avatar
Great article. It is so refreshing to see this type of journalism in the US.


It is British.

MIND_REBEL:
If you look at the way natives lived before the white man forced religion into thier minds they were some of the most peaceful, rationial beings without unequal distrubutions of wealth, violence, racism, sexism or any other irrationial memes that plagues theistic society.


Nonsense, religion and mysticism plays and had played a very important role in every single primitive society. Theism was actually an improvement on the rationality scale as it compartmentalized and structured the superstitions. And atheism was the next step. You won't see a transition from tribal mysticism into atheism.

Other Comments by denoir

6. Comment #34608 by Russell Blackford on April 24, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Sorry, Mind Rebel, but I'm just not buying the whole noble savage thing.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

7. Comment #34612 by GoodbyeGodNZ on April 24, 2007 at 5:07 pm

 avatarFabulous article Matthew! One of the best summaries of the overall situation that I have ever read!

Other Comments by GoodbyeGodNZ

8. Comment #34613 by Aaron SF on April 24, 2007 at 5:08 pm

 avatarBeautifully written.

The part about how church attendance has driven churches to more acceptance cracks me up.

As a homo I find I'm always a little skeptical when I see whole denomonations jump ship before it goes down.

Other Comments by Aaron SF

9. Comment #34617 by roach on April 24, 2007 at 5:38 pm

Russell Blackford said: "I'm just not buying the whole noble savage thing."

Yeah. Read Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate and watch the doctrine of the noble savage (along with the blank slate and the ghost in the machine)
get obliterated. Civilization is making us, well, more civil. We are becoming more moral as we go along.

Other Comments by roach

10. Comment #34620 by Goodwithwood on April 24, 2007 at 5:50 pm

 avatarMind Rebel
The natives her in the US were very superstitious and polytheistic.

I don't want to shoot you down cause I understand your admiration of some of the native religions here. Yet not all were peaceful nations many were war-centered but all were surely god worshipers.
What I admire is their simplistic view that was tinted with common sense. Indeed most of the native nations of the Americas had a natural "Morality" that was lacking in there dogmatic Christian conquerors. Being polluted by monotheistic Judaism and all.

GWW

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

11. Comment #34622 by Veronique on April 24, 2007 at 6:04 pm

 avatarComment #34602 by MIND_REBEL

Like Russell, I don't buy the Noble Savage bit either. Here are a couple of quotes for you though:

Jomo Kenyatta (President of Kenya): When the missionaries arrived, the Africans had the Land and the missionaries had the Bible, They taught us how to pray with our eyes closed. When we opened them, they had the Land and we had the Bible.

Pontiac (Ottawa Indian): They came with a Bible and their religion, stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

Indigenous Africans and Americans were not peaceful nor harmonious. They had very well developed warrior classes and tribes fought each other for resources, women and territory.

For all that, nice to see you back here.

As for Parris' article, bravo! One more person with both the name and the message (plus a readership).

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

12. Comment #34626 by Yorker on April 24, 2007 at 6:12 pm

3. Comment #34602 by MIND_REBEL

Keep plugging away MIND_REBEL, one day it will all come together, I'm glad you weren't put off by those who denigrated you. Good to see Veronique being helpful also.

Incidentally Veronique, did you get my last PM? I finished the book.

Other Comments by Yorker

13. Comment #34627 by Shuggy on April 24, 2007 at 6:13 pm

 avatar
Theism was actually an improvement on the rationality scale as it compartmentalized and structured the superstitions.

I don't get that, can you spell it out a bit? One god is more rational than several?

In my understanding of the neolithic culture of this country, it was certainly riddled by superstitions, but also had a deal of insight into human nature expressed in "spiritual" terms, and their propensity to make war against each other also honed their diplomacy skills to prevent that. I think there were checks and balances in all cultures, because of traits universal to humanity, and we would do well to remember how recently it was that we took on board concepts like the equality of races or sexes.

Other Comments by Shuggy

14. Comment #34642 by Laurence Boyce on April 24, 2007 at 6:45 pm

 avatarHey Shuggy, that picture would be great for the Wikipedia article on Russell's teapot. Any chance you could send it me?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Other Comments by Laurence Boyce

15. Comment #34653 by hightrekker on April 24, 2007 at 7:53 pm

All I can say, in frustration to this superstition based reality--
So many Christians, so few Lions

Other Comments by hightrekker

16. Comment #34660 by nerdfiles on April 24, 2007 at 8:17 pm

Nice article.

I like where this sub-topic of polytheism vs. monotheism is going; however, I must point out that it is a mere matter of coincidence that polytheistic African and American tribes were predisposed to a less-than-civilised civilisation. Their theistic views, I feel, have very little to say about how progressed they were as cultures. It is a matter of other factors such as geography and agriculture.

For all we know, it could've been the other way around, in theory: the missionaries could've been passing out pamphlets for the Greek pantheon while the native Americans could've been worshiping in some monotheism.

Granted, it's difficult to conceive of this hypothetical since the myriad nature of tribalistic cultures seems to necessitate a polytheistic view, but I simply ask that theisms in general be seen as not the cause of the becoming of civilisation but rather a very close component to another reason as to why cultures increase in their intellectual and civil progression.

Other Comments by nerdfiles

17. Comment #34662 by mmurray on April 24, 2007 at 8:28 pm

 avatarThose who like to equate athiesm and being left wing might be amused by this


Matthew Parris

Matthew Parris joined The Times as parliamentary sketchwriter in 1988, a role he held until 2001. He had formerly worked for the Foreign Office and been a Conservative MP from 1979-86. He has published many books on travel and politics and an autobiography, Chance Witness, for which he won the 2004 Orwell Prize. His diary appears in The Times on Thursdays, and his Opinion column on Saturdays

(The highlighting is mine.)

There are over a hundred comments on the original site.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

18. Comment #34671 by Prieten on April 24, 2007 at 9:21 pm

Re: Noble Savages

Was it the Aztecs who were ripping out captives' hearts or was it the Mayans who were throwing bejeweled girls into natural watershafts as part of their religious rituals, or vice versa?

In my opinion, not much worse than Abrahamic religious rituals, but not much better either...

Other Comments by Prieten

19. Comment #34672 by denoir on April 24, 2007 at 9:22 pm

 avatarShuggy:
I don't get that, can you spell it out a bit? One god is more rational than several?


What is common in all 'primitive' cultures is the presence of supernatural agents and ancestor worship. While this works ok for smaller tribes, it is not very practical in larger societies where an organization of the beliefs is required to include the common good. Ancestor worship may work on an individual level, but it is thoroughly useless as a common framework.

The move from tribal religions to polytheistic systems was a consolidation of belief into a common framework. This framework also allowed for a more generalized view of nature - not everything was a special case at the mercy of an arbitrary agent but was dictated by a standardized entity. Nature often provided the material for the agreement. Poseidon thinks so and so because the sea does so and so. It's a great leap forward.

Monotheism can be seen as a grand unified theory. It is brilliant - instead of having a dozen of different agents with different goals and agendas, you have one entity with as far as possible one agenda. This enforces the idea of an ordered universe that can be studied. It is now dictated by one set of principles. They got the principles wrong in some situations, but the idea to treat the universe as a coherent unified system was a good one. Of course, when you get it wrong, it affects every component which is partly why the polytheistic classical cultures were superior to the medieval monotheistic ones up to a point in time.

Fewer gods are also an economic solution. When you have to please the ancestors and tons of invisible agents, it will take much of your time and permeate your life. The (poly) theistic systems solved that by organizing the superstition and assigning a professional class to deal with it - specialization. Instead of having to do things yourself, you just delegated it to a priest. The poly->monotheism step is a further time and resource saving step.

Other Comments by denoir

20. Comment #34675 by Veronique on April 24, 2007 at 9:40 pm

 avatar12. Comment #34626 by Yorker

I have now. Wow, I can't believe I didn't see your PM on 17th April.

Well, yes, Robyn himself calls it a primer. I think, like you, that it will be an excellent book to hand out to those like your sister and many that I know as well.

Are you going to write a review for Amazon? You said you might.

I like his style too, and he reminds me of me. So it's small wonder we both like his style!!:-)

I posted a comment to the Times and it hasn't shown up. Can someone tell me how long comments take to be posted on their threads? I am going to have to get into the habit of always copying my comments into a text document. I get so cross when I can't recall brilliant:-) things I have said and then the whole ruddy thing goes off into cyberspace!

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

21. Comment #34680 by Veronique on April 24, 2007 at 10:15 pm

 avatar16. Comment #34660 by nerdfiles

Where was it that I read that, by and large, polytheism, a more laid back culture and little female disenfranchisement tended to flourish in tropical rainforest environments? Clothing seemed to be not so prohibitive and laughter abounded. The religions were more fluid and less hidebound. (Very sketchy!)

The monotheistic religions, with harsher religious and cultural imperatives and greater female disenfranchisement grew up in arid (and obviously harsher) areas. Clothing was proscriptive, female sexuality was blamed for male inability to control lust and the religions themselves reflected the harsh conditions.

I don't really think this is any more than a cusory view and I can't recall where I came across it as a thesis.
This then becomes off-topic.

Our indigenous aborigines (harsh conditions in a lot of Australia) don't meet the 'arid' criteria above. And I can think of several tropical cultures where proscription was quite rigid. There's a fascinating book called Deadly Feasts about the discovery of the beginnings of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease (variant-kuru, scrapie and mad cow and I can't recall the author) that details the Fore people and Papuan Highlands communities and their religions and habits.

I am sure you could find it at Amazon.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

22. Comment #34681 by Roy_H on April 24, 2007 at 10:25 pm

 avatarComment #34622 by Veronique on April 24, 2007 at 6:04 pm
Another one for you:-
"What you teach us to do is admirable, but what you teach us to believe is foolish"
King Mongkut of Siam (now Thailand) to a Christian missionary.

Other Comments by Roy_H

23. Comment #34690 by Veronique on April 24, 2007 at 11:57 pm

 avatar22. Comment #34681 by Roy_H

And bloody well said by his highness, I must say.

On other posts here, I have said that I consider missionaries as an infestation that abounded, certainly throughout the Portugese, Spanish and British empire building days. And well before and well beyond. They are still at it!!

The Moslems also sent, not so much missionaries but, more strident parties to cower and convert peoples to their religion.

It sickens me to the teeth that religites think they are the only ones to hold 'truth' and have to proselytise to appease and propipiate their own particular god with no consideration for the subdued population's age-old culture and religious beliefs.

I hold that religion is an evil that knows no bounds and that any nefarious means that produces a result is deemed allowable by missionaries. That said, all the medical and scientific advances that have been made have, by and large, been withheld from the subjugated populations and the magic imposed by said missionaries has been no different from the magic previously practised by those populations. Have a look at Deadly Feasts. The research started in the '50s and the (very odd) doctor who uncovered what was happening laid no religious foundation to the reasoned arguments he gave to the Fore to stop their practice of cannibalism. And stop it he did. Kuru has not proliferated since then. That is how it should be.

That was a bit of a rant. Sorry.

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

24. Comment #34699 by fonex_86 on April 25, 2007 at 12:33 am


How do we reply? An ad hominem response would be to remark that when the Church had the upper hand it was happy to persecute, imprison or behead non-believers and fight crusades against other religions. Now it has lost its boss status it simply asks us to keep our opinions to ourselves (but still wants laws to criminalise us for mocking its pretensions).


Hmm, isn't this more of a statement of fact, rather than an argument?

Other Comments by fonex_86

25. Comment #34701 by eno on April 25, 2007 at 12:37 am

Wonderful to read an uplifting article on the Big A and especially refreshing in The Times. Three cheers for Matthew Parry!

Other Comments by eno

26. Comment #34718 by Coel on April 25, 2007 at 1:55 am

To weefree:

"I suspect that disbelief in the form of the atheist fundamentalism espoused by Mr Parris, Richard Dawkins et al ('religion is a virus which needs to be eradicated') is more likely to be a destructive and oppressive force rather than the 'redeeming, saving force' of Mr Parris's dreams."

The chances of disbelief as espoused by Parris, Dawkins, Dennett, Harris et al being a destructive or oppressive force are minimal, as you'd see if you listen to what they actually say.

And that supposed quote of yours of Dawkins, is it fabricated? Like your claims about the VT killer?

Other Comments by Coel

27. Comment #34723 by scottishgeologist on April 25, 2007 at 2:07 am

 avatarNot sure I care for this expression "atheist fundamentalism" - it is meaningless. To be a-theist is to not believe in god or gods. end of story. You cant have degrees of "not-ness" You eiter "are " or "arent"

The use of the word fundamentalist implies that there are degrees of atheism - which is ridiculous.

Probably what people like weefree are referring to is "militant atheism" which is a rather more honest term. Sure, there are the sort of armchair, pipe-smoking don types of atheists who vote lib-dem and seldom mention their atheism. And yes there are people like Dawkins et al who shout more loudly.

there may be a differnce in their style but as far as their degree of atheism, there is no difference.

Unlike religion of course where there is a whole spectrum of belief from "just about touching atheism" liberalism (eg John Spong) right through to the Fred Phelps of this world. In which case the word "fundamentalist" can be properly used.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

28. Comment #34734 by Yorker on April 25, 2007 at 2:53 am

28. Comment #34723 by scottishgeologist

I agree. We all know this troll, he's one of those shallow dolts who think they are allowed an opinion about a fact, sadly, his breed are not yet extinct.

Other Comments by Yorker

29. Comment #34735 by Yorker on April 25, 2007 at 3:06 am

20. Comment #34675 by Veronique

Yes, I will. I'm pretty busy with simulation code right now but I'll try to fit it in soon.

On your posting problems, I have a quick tip for you. I recommend keeping a text editor or word processor running all the time you're online. If making just a quick comment, you can copy and paste it into the editor prior to posting. If it's a long comment, write the entire thing in the editor then copy and paste here. In both cases you should always save to disk, it gives you a history which can be enlightening to look back on later.

Other Comments by Yorker

30. Comment #34739 by Yorker on April 25, 2007 at 3:32 am

27. Comment #34718 by Coel

Coel, addressing weefree is a waste of time. He is minister of a freakish sect of religites and a troll of long standing unable to stop himself frequenting this place. Asking him to consider anything fairly in an unbiased way will elicit the same response that all supremely arrogant religites give. They are simply incapable of admitting the possibility their faith is nonsense, that's why it's pointless to engage him or any other closed-minded god freak in intelligent productive discussion.

Other Comments by Yorker

31. Comment #34744 by scottishgeologist on April 25, 2007 at 4:22 am

 avatarYorker: "freakish sect of religites" ROFLMAO!

Actually, in their determination to be the absolute bearers of this absolute truth, the Scottish churches over the years hae shown a mind-numbing number of splits, unions and general "rattle thrown out the pram" behaviour.

Look at this link:

http://uk.geocities.com/edward.andrews@btinternet.com/chart.html

Unbelievable. And that is just up to 1929. The chart is actually incomplete regarding the last few decades: Since then there was the formation of the Associated Presbyterian Churches in 1988 (they broke from the Free Presbyterians over the Lord Mackay affair).

And then there was the Free Church Continuing who broke from the Free Church in 2000 because one of the Free Church professors wasnt properly dealt with over alleged sexual misconduct in Australia. Allegedly. Or was it because of "liberalism" in the FC? Who knows, who cares?

And it goes on and on and on.


This is the sort of stuff that Monty Python parodied with their "Judean Popular Front" sketch in the Life of Brian

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

32. Comment #34748 by _J_ on April 25, 2007 at 5:23 am

 avatarRegarding 28 Comment #34723 by scottishgeologist

Without desiring to cause a ruckus (as I'm overwhelmingly on the same side as you – certainly with regard to attitudes like weefree's) I think I want to disagree (in a friendly, over a pint, sort of way) with your logic here:


'To be a-theist is to not believe in god or gods. end of story. You cant have degrees of "not-ness" You eiter "are " or "arent"

The use of the word fundamentalist implies that there are degrees of atheism - which is ridiculous.'


By that rationale, you can't have fundamentalist theists, either: as you said 'you either "are" or "aren't"'.

Not wishing to be robbed of the word 'fundamentalist' (which I find terribly convenient as a label for people who enrol on pilot training courses and skive off the sessions on landing), I think we have to admit that you can have fundamentalists at both extremes of a dis/belief spectrum that does indeed stretch right from fundamentalist theists to fundamentalist atheists.

However, whilst fundamentalist theists are ten-a-penny, fundamentalist atheists are a rare, possibly entirely theoretical breed. They would have to hold that there isn't a god *irrespective* of the evidence. A fundamentalist atheist would, even if god unexpectedly materialised tomorrow saying 'Sorry I'm late, got tied up over with the Glieseans for a couple of millennia – now, about this evolution thing…', nevertheless still remain an atheist.

I suppose, finally, that there may be a danger of becoming a fundamentalist atheist without realising it. Since the evidence actually is wholly on the side of atheism, it's hard to know whether there are those among us who would betray our professed reverence of facts if the tables were suddenly turned. Given the demonstrable predisposition of human beings as a whole to rationalise and justify opinions that they have come to hold strongly (irrespective of the means by which they acquired them), I suspect this is possible. It might be worth finding something to be crashingly wrong about every once in a while to keep us honest.

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33. Comment #34750 by _J_ on April 25, 2007 at 5:30 am

 avatarOh - further to the above, it goes without saying that Matthew Parris, Richard Dawkins and the usual targets of this sort of accusation are of course not 'atheist fundamentalists' in any way. Obviously.

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34. Comment #34754 by newatheist on April 25, 2007 at 5:44 am

 avatarYorker -
Please don't discourage responding to the trolls. The beautiful logic that's been posted in responses when these guys stir the pot in many threads has expanded my largely uninformed mind, and there may be many other people like me who need these exchanges to broaden their understanding.

ps I tried to post a more florid comment earlier incorporating this thought but it didn't seem to come up. My apologies is this is duplicated.

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35. Comment #34757 by Suffolk Blue on April 25, 2007 at 5:49 am

OK, weefree - I'm struggling here to work out what you find wrong with the Nietzsche quote "I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty – I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind…" Sounds reasonable enough to me.

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36. Comment #34780 by Suffolk Blue on April 25, 2007 at 8:25 am

Weefree:

Yes, religion is a virus and the world would be a better place if it were eradicated.

Yes, atheism is dangerous. But only to your belief in your sky-daddy.

Intolerant? Yes, why should your fairy tales be tolerated?

Other Comments by Suffolk Blue

37. Comment #34782 by GodlessHeathen on April 25, 2007 at 8:30 am

 avatar
weefree: Yes - I thought it might. Another man thought Nietzsche was spot on in his analysis of Christianity and he was prepared to take advice about using any expedient to get rid of it. First of all he went for the Jews - his name was Hitler. If you really think there is nothing wrong with Neitzsche's opinion then you have just proved my view point that fundamentalist atheism is not only intolerant but dangerous.
That leap from someone agreeing with Nietzsche on that point to a comparison with Hitler is nothing more than ad hominem. It contributes nothing to the debate, and it is the sort of thing you are in the habit of doing. This is why you get labeled a troll.

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38. Comment #34783 by epeeist on April 25, 2007 at 8:30 am

 avatarComment #34712 by weefree

it is slightly worrying that Mr Parris cites Nietzsche in his support. This is the same Nietzsche who wrote "I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct for revenge for which no expedient is sufficiently poisonous, secret, subterranean, petty – I call it the one immortal blemish of mankind…"

A better quotation might be The word "Christianity" is already a misunderstanding - in reality there has been only one Christian, and he died on the Cross.

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39. Comment #34785 by BillySands on April 25, 2007 at 8:37 am

 avatarGo on weefree Give us your best evidence of the existence of god then - but only do so if you are open to the possibility that you may be wrong and will not run away if micah 5:2, Isaiah 7:14 or quirinius are mentioned. One other rule, no ad homenim or branding people fundamentalists - can you do that? And if you do think there is something wrong with rejecting the likes of Micah 5:2, try explaining why - dont throw accusations!

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40. Comment #34788 by Coel on April 25, 2007 at 8:44 am

Dear Weefree:

"Really? Why? The track record of those who have espoused such militant atheism is hardly good. I do not expect a new wave of tolerance."

Not so. The track record of those espousing totalitarian communism is hardly good. But the record of those such as Parris, Dawkins, Harris, Dennett who espouse what you call "militant" atheism is entirely laudable.

"Are you missing something? Have you read TGD? Was I misreading when I understood Dawkins to say that religion was a virus?"

Sure, he said it was a virus in the technical sense of spreading itself for its own good. That is not the same as saying "religion is a virus which needs to be eradicated". Is that a genuine quote, or a fabrication/paraphrase? Has Dawkins ever said "religion . . . needs to be eradicated"? The words "needs" and "eradicated" are strong ones.

If this isn't an actual quote, but is instead a distorted fabrication/paraphrase, don't you think it is highly misleading to present it as one?

(And don't you think that the Times should have checked its accuracy before publishing it?)

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41. Comment #34791 by Coel on April 25, 2007 at 8:50 am

To weefree:

"Another man thought Nietzsche was spot on in his analysis of Christianity and he was prepared to take advice about using any expedient to get rid of it. First of all he went for the Jews - his name was Hitler."

So let's see if I've got this straight, your evidence to support your claim that Hitler tried to "get rid of" Christianity is that he went for the Jews. Correct?

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42. Comment #34792 by Peacebeuponme on April 25, 2007 at 8:52 am

WeeFree - I'm pretty new to this commentposting game, but isn't there a general rule that the first person to ad hominem using Hitler automatically loses the argument?

btw - I'm fully and happily in the "militant" atheist camp, but glad you are posting. We need opinions from all corners, and it can get a bit dry when everyone is just repeating the sense well all know.

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43. Comment #34793 by _J_ on April 25, 2007 at 8:53 am

 avatar38. Comment #34778 by weefree

Hi, weefree.

First: ta!

Second: okay, my definition of 'fundamentalist' may be - and probably is – not wholly standard. I may have fallen into this usage as a way of trying to find a useful application for the word. It seems very prone to sliding into becoming a straightforward pejorative term for 'those baddies who aren't us' – and that kind of use strikes me as a step towards establishing 'us' as some kind of unexamined in-group. This is an obvious danger in a community of people spending a lot of time reinforcing shared opinions.

By way of redeeming myself, I've just checked my dictionary. The two meanings it gives for 'fundamentalism' are both 'strict maintenance of [one faith or another]'. This appears to me to chime very nicely with my usage. 'Strict maintenance' of a belief is the defence of it against any pesky new findings that might challenge it: the belief is held to be 'fundamental' and unassailable. A fundamentalist theist regards her/his religious faith in this manner; a fundamentalist atheist would regard her/his unbelief is equally unquestionable.

Third:


'"Since the evidence actually is wholly on the side of atheism"

No there's a fundamentalist statement if ever I heard one. How sweet and reassuring for the believers.'


Oh, but you're mischievous with these jibes! (I am waiting for Yorker to bite your finger off for the one about his/her 'faith'). Still, fair enough – it was a rather sweepingly absolute claim. I'll rephrase it:

'Since all of the evidence that I am aware of appears to be wholly in support of atheism (in so far as that it indicates a reality consistent with the absence of divine agency, and increasingly presents persuasive, non-supernatural, explanations for the widespread phenomenon of errant religious belief)…'

Not so snappy, but if I must speak by the card…

Other Comments by _J_

44. Comment #34794 by _J_ on April 25, 2007 at 9:01 am

 avatar44. Comment #34791 by Coel on April 25, 2007 at 8:50 am

'So let's see if I've got this straight, your evidence to support your claim that Hitler tried to "get rid of" Christianity is that he went for the Jews. Correct?'

Quite right! It's a schoolboy error: 'Those liberals are truly the root of all evil. I will annihilate them all – beginning with the conservatives…'

Other Comments by _J_

45. Comment #34795 by edge100 on April 25, 2007 at 9:01 am

I am, once again, late in joining this thread, but...

Yes - I thought it might. Another man thought Nietzsche was spot on in his analysis of Christianity and he was prepared to take advice about using any expedient to get rid of it. First of all he went for the Jews - his name was Hitler. If you really think there is nothing wrong with Neitzsche's opinion then you have just proved my view point that fundamentalist atheism is not only intolerant but dangerous.


...virtually screams "Godwin's Law". What nonsense. Hitler loved sugar in his coffee too! Besides, everyone knows Stalin is a much better straw-man for these kinds of things.

"Since the evidence actually is wholly on the side of atheism"

No there's a fundamentalist statement if ever I heard one. How sweet and reassuring for the believers.


How on Earth is it "fundamentalist" to adhere to what the evidence suggests is true? This whole "atheists are as bad as us" argument is not only self-defeating, it is simply false. The evidence simply IS on the side of the atheists; not because there is direct evidence that god does not exist (celestial tea, anyone?), but because the evidence that god DOES exist is missing. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, except when evidence SHOULD be there. What evidence should one expect from a non-existent god?

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46. Comment #34796 by Vinelectric on April 25, 2007 at 9:02 am

 avatarWefree wrote: "Really? Why? The track record of those who have espoused such militant atheism is hardly good. I do not expect a new wave of tolerance."


The Scandinvians, and to a slightly lesser extent the Western Europeans, have almost completely marginalised religion from politics and indeed from everyday life. The success story of their secular humanism is all too evident so why ignore all this and point out to a handfull of communist psycopaths who happened to be Atheist as well?

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47. Comment #34798 by scottishgeologist on April 25, 2007 at 9:08 am

 avatarWeefree:

You said:

"The use of the word fundamentalist implies that there are degrees of atheism - which is ridiculous."

The use of the word fundamentalist implies that there are degrees of theism - which is ridiculous. Except it is not. And your 'logic' is flawed in the extreme

Sorry, I just dont get it, I honestly cannot fathom out what you are on about. Can anyone else?

The other point about scottish church history was quite simple - Yorker made a comment which got me thinking about sects and so on. You cannot possibly deny that Scottish church history is full of this Pythonesque stuff. Right up to recent times in your own denomination.

Since all these branches claim to know the truth, it makes me wonder, who is right? And why are the others wrong? Now I know all the stuff about calvinism /arminianism /legalism / voluntaryism / patronage / establishment principle / I've been through all that years ago. Angels on pinheads spring to ind.

If the Bible which is supposedly the infallible guide to this stuff was REALLY that clear (and after all it does carry a message of salvation, so it is pretty important, you would say?) then there would be no need for all these sects and denominations. There would be ONE church . Period.

So when it comes to "the truth" only one lot can be right - the others MUST contain some degree of eror or omission.

So which is it? Which one is right? And why? Or maybe they are all simply wrong.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

48. Comment #34799 by Peacebeuponme on April 25, 2007 at 9:12 am

Godwin's Law - that's what I was getting at. Thanks edge100.

I'm sure you lot have more fun and come out with the best lines when you have a believer to play with. WeeFree has stimulated the discussion at least.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

49. Comment #34804 by Fedler on April 25, 2007 at 9:42 am

 avatarWeefree,

Please leave. You mention how atheists always mention the same old arguments, but here you again spouting 'Hitler', 'militant atheism', 'this site is not a free-thinking oasis', blah, blah, blah (It's free-thinking for those of us willing to be free).

Jesus, spare me!

You obviously have no intention of entering into a meaningful discussion. You know your comments on this thread and other threads will be met with resistance again and again, which, in your opinion will give you more fodder to whine and shout to the heavens "See, you atheists are not open-minded!" I have not seen one ounce of humility from you in regards to whether or not you even MIGHT be mistaken in your beliefs. You have turned this site, and Dawkins personally, as your version of hell on earth and recently you appear to have made it your personal goal to fling as much anger as you can toward atheists, this site, Dawkins, and anyone who hasn't 'seen the light' with regard to faith.

I won't mark you as a troll as some people here have not heard your tired arguments ad nauseum and they may wish to 'discuss' with you.

Other Comments by Fedler

50. Comment #34805 by commonhumanity on April 25, 2007 at 10:01 am

Just read the original article,
loved Matthew's Passion. (Or should I say "Saint Matthew's Passion"?)
DMS (Kentucky)

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