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Iran arrests 300 'insufficiently veiled' women
by MSNBC
Reposted from:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277927/
TEHRAN, Iran - With the arrival of spring, Iranian police have launched a crackdown against women accused of not covering up enough, arresting nearly 300 women, some for wearing too tight an overcoat or letting too much hair peek out from under their veil, authorities said Monday.
The campaign in the streets of major cities was the toughest such crackdown in nearly two decades, raising fears that hard-liner President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad intends to re-impose the tough Islamic Revolution-era constraints on women's dress that loosened in past years.
The move highlighted the new boldness among hard-liners in Ahmadinejad's government, which has used mounting Western pressure on Tehran over its nuclear program and Iraq as a pretext to put down internal dissent.
But it could bring a backlash at a time when many Iranians resent Ahmadinejad for failing to boost the faltering economy or halt spiraling prices and blame him for isolating Iran with his fiery rhetoric. The two-day-old crackdown was already angering moderates.
"What they do is really insulting. You simply can't tell people what to wear. They don't understand that use of force only brings hatred toward them, not love," said Elham Mohammadi, a 23-year-old female student.
Her hair was hardly hidden by her white-and-orange headscarf — an infraction that could bring police attention. Police could be seen Monday stopping and giving warnings to other women who were showing too much hair or even wearing too colorful a headscarf.
Looser dress codes are one of the few surviving gains from the era of Ahmadinejad's predecessor, reformist President Mohammad Khatami, who was in power from 1997 to 2005.
During that time, many women, particularly in cities, shed the dress code imposed after the 1979 revolution — veils completely covering the hair and heavy coats or the black or gray head-to-toe chador hiding the shape of the body.
Now it is common to see women in loose headscarves — some as narrow as a ribbon — that show much of their hair and short, colorful, form-fitting jackets that stop at the knee — or even higher — showing jeans underneath. Even under Ahmadinejad in the past two years, women can be seen in pants that leave the bottom of their calves bare.
Any of those styles could bring warnings or detention from the anti-vice police in the current sweep, which began Saturday.
Women among anti-vice police
Anti-vice police — many of them women — have been stopping women in the streets of the capital and other cities if they deem their dress is "un-Islamic."
So far, 278 women have been detained, 231 of whom were released after they signed papers promising they won't appear "inadequately dressed in public," police spokesman Col. Mahi Ahmadi told The Associated Press Monday.
Another 3,548 women have been given "warnings and Islamic guidance," without being detained, Ahmadi said.
Twelve men have also been detained for "not observing the proper Islamic dress code" by wearing tight pants or short-sleeve shirts, he said.
Every spring, there are calls by clerics for a crackdown, and the past two years have seen minor, localized sweeps. But this year's was the first since before Khatami's presidency to see so many arrests and had high prominence in the government media, warning women to adhere to Islamic dress.
Ahmadi said the sweep would go on "as long as necessary," but it was not clear whether it heralded an all-out, permanent campaign to bar looser dress codes.
One hard-liner cleric on Monday warned of a backlash. "In many cases, the use of force in the fight against social harms can backfire," the head of judiciary, Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, said, according to the state news agency IRNA.
Qom clerics called for crackdown
But many conservatives were applauding the crackdown, launched after a call from senior hard-line clerics in the holy city of Qom to tighten the reins.
"All are responsible towards the problem of inadequate dress," Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, one senior Qom cleric, told newspapers.
Mostafa Pourmohammadi, the interior minister in charge of the campaign, said it would please the people by restoring social stability.
"People are unhappy with the social and moral status of the society. They expect that the fight against social insecurity be properly implemented," Pourmohammadi was quoted in the conservative daily Resalat as saying.
Hard-line lawmaker, Mohammad Taqi Rahbar, said the looser dress codes had prompted Iranian women and families "to cry out" for help. "Men see models in the streets and ignore their own wives at home. This weakens the pillars of family," he said.
Ever since Ahmadinejad won the presidency in 2005 elections, Iranians have been fearing a return to the prohibitions on "un-Islamic" dress, music, male and female mixing and the other restrictions from the revolution's heyday.
But criticism of the president has been increasing as prices for basic good like food and housing have increased in past months — despite his campaign promises to reduce poverty.
"The problem of our country is unemployment, rapid increase in the number of crimes and murders, not women's dress," said Sadeq Rowshani, a bank clerk.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18277927/
TEHRAN, Iran - With the arrival of spring, Iranian police have launched a crackdown against women accused of not covering up enough, arresting nearly 300 women, some for wearing too tight an overcoat or letting too much hair peek out from under their veil, authorities said Monday.
The campaign in the streets of major cities was the toughest such crackdown in nearly two decades, raising fears that hard-liner President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad intends to re-impose the tough Islamic Revolution-era constraints on women's dress that loosened in past years.
The move highlighted the new boldness among hard-liners in Ahmadinejad's government, which has used mounting Western pressure on Tehran over its nuclear program and Iraq as a pretext to put down internal dissent.
But it could bring a backlash at a time when many Iranians resent Ahmadinejad for failing to boost the faltering economy or halt spiraling prices and blame him for isolating Iran with his fiery rhetoric. The two-day-old crackdown was already angering moderates.
"What they do is really insulting. You simply can't tell people what to wear. They don't understand that use of force only brings hatred toward them, not love," said Elham Mohammadi, a 23-year-old female student.
Her hair was hardly hidden by her white-and-orange headscarf — an infraction that could bring police attention. Police could be seen Monday stopping and giving warnings to other women who were showing too much hair or even wearing too colorful a headscarf.
Looser dress codes are one of the few surviving gains from the era of Ahmadinejad's predecessor, reformist President Mohammad Khatami, who was in power from 1997 to 2005.
During that time, many women, particularly in cities, shed the dress code imposed after the 1979 revolution — veils completely covering the hair and heavy coats or the black or gray head-to-toe chador hiding the shape of the body.
Now it is common to see women in loose headscarves — some as narrow as a ribbon — that show much of their hair and short, colorful, form-fitting jackets that stop at the knee — or even higher — showing jeans underneath. Even under Ahmadinejad in the past two years, women can be seen in pants that leave the bottom of their calves bare.
Any of those styles could bring warnings or detention from the anti-vice police in the current sweep, which began Saturday.
Women among anti-vice police
Anti-vice police — many of them women — have been stopping women in the streets of the capital and other cities if they deem their dress is "un-Islamic."
So far, 278 women have been detained, 231 of whom were released after they signed papers promising they won't appear "inadequately dressed in public," police spokesman Col. Mahi Ahmadi told The Associated Press Monday.
Another 3,548 women have been given "warnings and Islamic guidance," without being detained, Ahmadi said.
Twelve men have also been detained for "not observing the proper Islamic dress code" by wearing tight pants or short-sleeve shirts, he said.
Every spring, there are calls by clerics for a crackdown, and the past two years have seen minor, localized sweeps. But this year's was the first since before Khatami's presidency to see so many arrests and had high prominence in the government media, warning women to adhere to Islamic dress.
Ahmadi said the sweep would go on "as long as necessary," but it was not clear whether it heralded an all-out, permanent campaign to bar looser dress codes.
One hard-liner cleric on Monday warned of a backlash. "In many cases, the use of force in the fight against social harms can backfire," the head of judiciary, Ayatollah Mahmoud Hashemi Shahroudi, said, according to the state news agency IRNA.
Qom clerics called for crackdown
But many conservatives were applauding the crackdown, launched after a call from senior hard-line clerics in the holy city of Qom to tighten the reins.
"All are responsible towards the problem of inadequate dress," Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi, one senior Qom cleric, told newspapers.
Mostafa Pourmohammadi, the interior minister in charge of the campaign, said it would please the people by restoring social stability.
"People are unhappy with the social and moral status of the society. They expect that the fight against social insecurity be properly implemented," Pourmohammadi was quoted in the conservative daily Resalat as saying.
Hard-line lawmaker, Mohammad Taqi Rahbar, said the looser dress codes had prompted Iranian women and families "to cry out" for help. "Men see models in the streets and ignore their own wives at home. This weakens the pillars of family," he said.
Ever since Ahmadinejad won the presidency in 2005 elections, Iranians have been fearing a return to the prohibitions on "un-Islamic" dress, music, male and female mixing and the other restrictions from the revolution's heyday.
But criticism of the president has been increasing as prices for basic good like food and housing have increased in past months — despite his campaign promises to reduce poverty.
"The problem of our country is unemployment, rapid increase in the number of crimes and murders, not women's dress," said Sadeq Rowshani, a bank clerk.
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Posted: Thursday, April 26, 2007 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 54 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #35225 by Jack Rawlinson on April 26, 2007 at 3:58 pm
And the "soft liberals" in this country wonder why some of us support bans on the veil in state institutions. You have to draw a solid line in the sand against the encroachment of this sort of primitive, sexist, patriarchal vileness. And hell yes, I'll call that particular spade a spade. Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
3. Comment #35227 by William on April 26, 2007 at 4:03 pm
"The problem of our country is unemployment, rapid increase in the number of crimes and murders, not women's dress,"
This brings to mind the current Richard Gere kissing controversy. Doesn't India have bigger problems to worry about, like poverty, overpopulation and ethnic and religious conflict?
Maybe this is something that a religiously inspired moral panic offers people: an outlet for their frustration and impotence, a distraction from their more serious, and perhaps insoluble, problems.
Other Comments by William
4. Comment #35231 by Devolution on April 26, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I remember reading somewhere that the as a result of the Iran/Iraq war that 70% of the population of Iran is under the age of 35. Lets go Iranian Gen X'ers, throw of the veils, start downloading porn, and have lots of drunken anonymous sex like the good lord intended. Other Comments by Devolution
5. Comment #35233 by Aaron SF on April 26, 2007 at 4:22 pm
Anti-vice police — many of them women — have been stopping women in the streets of the capital and other cities if they deem their dress is "un-Islamic."This is the scariest part to me. I mean when men enforce sexism it's gross and destructive, when women do it it's abhorent.
Richard Gere? How about the USA 2004 presidential election?!
"Ignore that war that's not going so well, and the failing economy, and my pay raise, and look how I'm protecting society from the immorality of the gays."
F@*$ load of crap.
Maybe religiously inspired moral panic is just a way for people in power to control the masses?
Other Comments by Aaron SF
6. Comment #35237 by Mango on April 26, 2007 at 4:44 pm
It's the gov't trying to legislate morality and that doesn't work, in America or even an Islamic theocracy. The "moral Zeitgeist" moves forward regardless albeit slowly. Other Comments by Mango
7. Comment #35244 by CDG on April 26, 2007 at 5:12 pm
I was sitting around a fire last weekend discussing issues with about 5 AMERICAN women whom I just met. I asked them their opinions about the Burka and how women in the middle east are treated in general. I asked where all the outrage was amongst the american women of our country toward this obvious discrimiation.You know what they told me? "Who were they to pass judgement on another societies culture that has been around for 1000 years". I know this is ancecdotal but I was floored. I hope this isn't the prevailing line of thinking out there.
By the way, who is the guy on this sight who has as his ID Pic the woman in a Burka with the quote saying "Thank You for Not Provoking My Uncontrollable Lust" I love that!!!!
Other Comments by CDG
8. Comment #35254 by Fedler on April 26, 2007 at 6:07 pm
By the way, who is the guy on this sight who has as his ID Pic the woman in a Burka with the quote saying "Thank You for Not Provoking My Uncontrollable Lust" I love that!!!!I believe that would be our friend, Luthien.
Other Comments by Fedler
9. Comment #35265 by William on April 26, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Re: Comment #35244 by CDGDid these "5 American Women" major in the Humanities or Social Sciences by any chance?
Typical, asinine cultural relativism. If we can't pass judgment on different types of cultures, including our own, how are we to decide which are the cultural attributes we should most like to propagate? What is the ideal culture that humanity as a whole should strive towards? These are important questions. They go all the way back to Plato and his Republic. But they are being stultified and repressed by post-modernists in the name of a shallow political correctness.
The arrogance of ignorance.
Other Comments by William
10. Comment #35287 by CDG on April 26, 2007 at 7:19 pm
William: Not sure but wouldn't doubt it- as they all were wearing Birkenstocks (which I too own). I remember that one of them had a bumper sticker on her car that read "cut the crap, not the baby" referring to circumcision I presume. But she was the biggest defender of apathy in the group when discussing women in other cultures...I wish I would have made the correlation that night between her position on that topic but refraining from criticizing the Burka or evern the right for woment to vote in Saudi Arabia.
Other Comments by CDG
11. Comment #35291 by William on April 26, 2007 at 7:32 pm
they all were wearing Birkenstocks...one of them had a bumper sticker on her car that read "cut the crap, not the baby" referring to circumcision I presume.
They sound like damned, dirty hippies. In that case, they probably didn't major in anything other than Bongology.
Other Comments by William
12. Comment #35293 by maton100 on April 26, 2007 at 7:38 pm
In Iran: Sun go up, sun go down...Bill O'Reilly. Other Comments by maton100
13. Comment #35305 by Freelance Scientist on April 26, 2007 at 8:09 pm
You'd think that the strict religious values of right and wrong as decreed by Islam would keep the "uncontrollable lust" of the men under control ?Sounds like treatment of the symptoms to me, the cause is what we know already. (well we do here anyway)
Other Comments by Freelance Scientist
14. Comment #35339 by paulwwww on April 26, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Friend Giskard;Laughing my ass off; Sluts, ha ha...
Other Comments by paulwwww
15. Comment #35343 by Wow on April 26, 2007 at 11:51 pm
There is a neat and simple solution for those women:GET BALLED! (Not down there, I mean the head.)
Other Comments by Wow
16. Comment #35346 by Russell Blackford on April 27, 2007 at 12:15 am
CDG, I understand exactly how you feel. In fact it's worse - I've encountered plenty of these pomo pc types who go beyond mere cultural relativism about sexual mores into positively embracing sexual puritanism. I call them the local Taliban. Don't get me started ... I'll post this quickly before it turns into a rant.Other Comments by Russell Blackford
17. Comment #35347 by MrEmpirical on April 27, 2007 at 12:15 am
I suppose those dumb-ass Birkenstock women wouldn't mind if their right to vote were revoked? After all, who are they to judge the ways of a culture?Other Comments by MrEmpirical
18. Comment #35350 by Aaron SF on April 27, 2007 at 12:44 am
I think it's kind of funny that the "right wing" iinfluences I hear criticize a lot of the same things I see on this site.Hippies, political correctnessl, cultural reletivism. etc...
Other Comments by Aaron SF
19. Comment #35352 by Philip1978 on April 27, 2007 at 1:10 am
I was having a chat with a friend about Islam and he said that if anything is going to be the fall of Islam it will be the uprising of women who have had enough. In Pakistan for instance, they debated rape laws not so long ago (You have to have 4 or 6 male witnesses, can't remember, otherwise you can because you can accused of perjury and whipped)When the Fundies got involved the president Mushariff backed down and the law is still in tatters.
I really can't see how women in Islamic countries are going to put up with being arrested simply for not covering their hair or ankles. Islam needs to change pretty fast, especially its sexual behaviour. I have heard that most (I am saying most, I promise I don't mean all!)men's first sexual experience is with his best male friend or an animal. Yay for gay rights if they were not so anti it all but animals?
They do not know how to deal with women or the rest of the world, they can only stay in the 14 century for so much longer before they realise the rest of the world has left them behind.
Apologies for the rant but somehow I feel a bit better!!
Other Comments by Philip1978
20. Comment #35360 by Vaal on April 27, 2007 at 2:01 am
The poor Iranians have had thirty years of demented theocracy and tyranny. In time the mysogyny and the ignorance will be rejected by the younger generation and a counter revolution will take place. Hopefully sooner, rather than later. Other Comments by Vaal
21. Comment #35362 by Logicel on April 27, 2007 at 2:12 am
There is this great travel TV show here in France, where this guy goes traveling all over the world by himself and his video camera with the goal of sleeping at some stranger's house. The viewer can get a real slice of life that way. In Kuwait (if I recall correctly), he met a young man in traditional dress at a sports stadium who befriended him and tried to say that his countrymen were friendly despite the fact that they almost physically harmed the French guy for trying to take photos of women from afar.
The French guy and the Arab one met the next day, and the Arab guy very reluctantly consented for the visitor to stay at his home after the French guy again remarked how unfriendly everyone seemed. The Arab guy insisted that his countrymen were traditionally hospitable.
While staying at his newly found friend's home occupied by a big extended family, the Frenchman did not catch a glimpse of a woman. When asked why, the Arab guy said that women and men must be separated TO PREVENT DIVORCE. How about preventing real life from happening, how about that!!!!!!!!!!!!
The young Arab said that many in his country liked certain aspects of Western lifestyle like technology but were against the encroachment on traditional values like friendliness and hospitality. These traditional values are probably more based on the in and out group viewpoint, and not as admirable as this young Arab seems to think.
And the poster that has that fabulous avatar in question is a young Irish woman (I think) whose id here is Luthien.
Other Comments by Logicel
22. Comment #35365 by Sas23 on April 27, 2007 at 2:27 am
I don't think these countries will ever change.Religious views will continue to be passed down from generation to generation.
I feel so much sympathy for these women.
From such a young age, both sexes are taught such strong morals and ways of life and thus effecting their hatred towards others who rebel.
I could not imagine life as a women in Tehran.
I do hope that one day, Iranian women will rise up and have their views heard. Protecting & giving the right to the next generation of free thinkers.
I was told on a visit to Turkey, that a mans first sexual experiance is also with another man. But these encounters, seemingly, continue throughout their lives, during marriage & raising a family ?? Although, I did not know they experimented with animals too!
Other Comments by Sas23
23. Comment #35367 by logical on April 27, 2007 at 2:29 am
I do fear that the women some people here refer to as "Birkenstocks" were not very good in putting things: We women in former Christian countries have fought for the right to vote for a century, and now have to choose among advertising-polished faces with as much "differences" as brand-named merchandise; we have fought against enforced marriage only to have to submit to surgery for the "marriage market" without any say that some are not interested at all and some not for so high a price, and we still face violence and the abortion rights in the places we seemed to get them are being taken away from us. So: As long as we do not know how to get rid of Bush and Blair and Putin, cannot even throw the vatican out of the United Nations, we cannot tell women born into Muslim countries how to get rid of Ahmadinedjad, make the monarchy in Saudi Arabia into some no-longer-harmful Scandinavian-like one, take the money from the emir of Brunei...Lots of people prefer to gloss over things than to become cynical.
Other Comments by logical
24. Comment #35368 by HunterZolomon on April 27, 2007 at 2:30 am
Concerning the 5 birkenstocks, I've also encountered similar individuals, both male and female. In my experience every time you discuss issues like this with them, it doesn't take long before you realize that they are merely parroting the rants of pc-bullies. They simply haven't given the situation much thought at all, let alone rational thought. It seems too many people allow others to do the thinking for them, especially when some form of pressure is involved. Other Comments by HunterZolomon
25. Comment #35387 by bamboospitfire on April 27, 2007 at 3:42 am
All this from the religion which persuades its adherents to annihilate themselves and others in return for the promise of eternal prurience. Something is amiss. Other Comments by bamboospitfire
26. Comment #35390 by Awl on April 27, 2007 at 3:47 am
Is there anything that we in the west can do to stop this happening?I can't think of any ways in which our intervention wouldn't make things worse but I hate having to sit here, shake my head, and say "how awful". Telling each other how immoral it is does nothing - but is there anything we can do?
Other Comments by Awl
27. Comment #35394 by Rtambree on April 27, 2007 at 3:54 am
We in the west still have some of these residual gender laws & customs... all evidence of a common Abrahamic ancestry...1. At a wedding, the father of the bride hands over the bride to the husband. White dress represents virginity.
2. Catholic nuns, Amish, etc cover their heads.
3. Men can go bare chested in public, but women can't (except on some European beaches). Bikinis are two piece, whereas men only have one-piece.
4. Nudity is highly censored in Hollywood movies, whereas violence isn't. Just look at 300.
5. Female promiscuity is still regarded by most westerners as more problematic than male promiscuity.
Of course, it's 1000% better than the Middle East, but it's still interesting to note these minor traces of misogynistic Bronze Age thinking that still lurk within our own cutlture. Perhaps we'll be rid of them within 100 years, whereas the Middle East will need several hundred years.
Other Comments by Rtambree
28. Comment #35409 by gcdavis on April 27, 2007 at 4:40 am
I agree with Philip1978 women are the best hope in reforming Islamic atiitudes. Perhaps women should try denial of sex, maybe that would change mens attitudes, or perhaps they would simply rape their wives. And why are Islamic men so sexually insecure that they want to keep their womenfolk hidden.
Other Comments by gcdavis
29. Comment #35410 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 4:43 am
Ok, let's first say that I am an Iranian woman, living in the US (Forgive the screen name, I just love that drama).I must say regarding the Zeitgeist in Iran, it has changed a lot since the days I used to go to school when everyone was a revilutionary zealot. We were not allowed to wear bright colors or even white socks in school, and everyone in school was female!
Women in Iran interestingly show their desire for change and equal rights, despite being forced to wear head scarves. There are many secular women activists who are under constant harrasment from the regime. Even thinking about this kind of activity was not imaginable 15 years ago.
These harrasments about the dress codes in the street have always been there, especially in summer when it gets hot, mostly in northern/central Tehran where well-to-do people live. The intensity of harrasments vary from government to government. Mostly it is to distract people from more important issues facing the society.
And it is difficult to protest really. You are all alone. Not many organizations exist and people don't get free information except through governement channels.
And majority of people are extremely religious. I don't buy the argument that Iranians are less religious because of the 28 years of theocracy. People who bring up this argument usually only look at the northern half of Tehran, not the majority of society.
Having said all these, I am not very hopeful about a wide spread change in Iran any time soon.
My friends and I were brought up by parents who were not the results of a theocratic society. They could balance our experiences of outside world pretty well at home, by providing us with all kinds of points of views and lots of books. Although we were under the attack of relentless religious propaganda, I am an atheist, I have friends who are all liberals, agnostics, atheists, very moderatley religious and so on. And most of us have left Iran already.
For a wide spread change, people's state of mind has to change through education. But education is in hands of the religious government. Freethought has no value in such a society and gets crushed immideatley. So , no I don't think wide spread change in people's mind is near or welcome in such a society.
And it saddens me greatly.
Other Comments by Manfred
30. Comment #35417 by Philip1978 on April 27, 2007 at 5:06 am
Manfred, great name you wily lady!I think change can happen in such times, people thought slavery would never end and it took some brave people to stand up to it and hard work for people to realise where they were going wrong.
Same with dear old England, ok, we still don't give women the credit they still deserve in the work place etc but look what has happened in the last 100 years or so. The world is modernising, I feel it will modernise to the point where this 14th Century stupidity will eventually be demolished.
Look at how women have fought for their rights and how they did it, I am certain something can be done but it has to come from the majority of women in countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia etc.
I may be the eternal optimist, possibly still too young to realise what the world is like, but giving up on it is something I will never do
I just need to find that superman outfit...
Other Comments by Philip1978
31. Comment #35420 by Luthien on April 27, 2007 at 5:39 am
7. Comment #35244 by CDG on April 26, 2007 at 5:12 pm
By the way, who is the guy on this sight who has as his ID Pic the woman in a Burka with the quote saying "Thank You for Not Provoking My Uncontrollable Lust" I love that!!!!
Actually I'm not a "guy" ;-)
I must say regarding the Zeitgeist in Iran, it has changed a lot since the days I used to go to school when everyone was a revilutionary zealot. We were not allowed to wear bright colors or even white socks in school, and everyone in school was female!
This is an exact description of my school, right here in Northern Ireland! I once got sent to my "head of year" for refusing to take a purple ribbon from my hair, and the (nun) principle once actually ran after me through the school because I was wearing DM boots rather than black shoes (I thought she didn't see me, so I legged it at speed through 2 sets of double doors and down a long corridor, not realising she was behind me until I stopped thinking I was safe).
Other Comments by Luthien
32. Comment #35430 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 6:14 am
Philip1978I wish I could be as optimistic as you. But I have seen change in the backwards direction and it has made me quite cynical. The absurdities are so great and numerous in a theocracy that boggles the mind sometimes. And the really sad thing is that people get used to it. Someone once said that it is as if you are taken hostage and feel attached to your kidnappers just to survive. Like the Stockholm Syndrom.
Luthien
Isn't it interesting that all systems based on religion, no matter what the details of the particular religion are, are so much like each other?
Many of the Christian Right fundamentalists in the US also remind me constantly of their Iranian Muslim counterpart.
And I love your ID Pic too :)
Other Comments by Manfred
33. Comment #35443 by epeeist on April 27, 2007 at 7:10 am
Not only in Iran it seems - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/6599437.stm Other Comments by epeeist
34. Comment #35447 by Myryama on April 27, 2007 at 7:26 am
Luthien's avatar crops up as a t-shirt here: http://www.jesusandmo.net/Other Comments by Myryama
35. Comment #35448 by Philip1978 on April 27, 2007 at 7:27 am
Manfred, I kind of owe you an apology, I guess I do sound a little naive and I see what you mean about Stockholm Syndrome, religion will do that to people. I have seen a few things in my short time, even had a gun pointed at me but it pales in comparison to what you have been through and I don't want you to think I under-estimate the struggle you and countless others have been through or experiencing now. I don't see widespread change coming soon either, especially with fundamentalist countries like Pakistan, India, Iran gaining nuclear knowledge and building expensive bombs whilst people are dying of starvation and disease. This being done all in the name of religion and international political posturing, it breaks my heart.
I guess I am completely daft but I don't want to give up on hoping, there is always a chance. My studies of modern and medieval political or religious history has convinced me to some degree it can't last forever and change will have to come at some point. Possibly around the same time I gain super powers and don the cape but I wont give up, the bastards don't deserve it.
Other Comments by Philip1978
36. Comment #35451 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 7:51 am
PhilipNo need for apologies my friend. I do appreciate your sentiments and hopeful attitude.
An I am sorry for my dark tone, I just don't see any place for a person like myself in my own country and that disappoints me.
Who knows, maybe you are right. Maybe change comes at some point. Hopefully it comes from inside, in an enlightened form. Not in an explosive one that destroys good and bad together.
Other Comments by Manfred
37. Comment #35452 by Boogie on April 27, 2007 at 7:53 am
I see the BBC has now picked up on this story:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6596933.stm
- Ordering a shopkeeper to saw off the breasts of mannequins because they are too revealing! Pathetic. All I can say is these people must be very easily aroused, and once aroused, quite unable to control themselves!
Other Comments by Boogie
38. Comment #35458 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 8:16 am
Incidentally, have you seen this:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6584661.stm
It is interesting to me, becasue *all* buses and metro cars in Tehran are segregated this way. The back of the bus belongs to women and is usually much smaller.
Similarities never end...
Other Comments by Manfred
39. Comment #35460 by CDG on April 27, 2007 at 8:26 am
Ahh a good nights sleep and bam- back at it!!!Russell: We like your rants.
Luthien: I find myself questioning why I thought you were a guy and not a woman. I did think that. I'll get back to you on that.
Awl: what to do? Dramatic change almost always requires a catalyst. But with the totalatarism regimes in these governments how can these sparks ignite into a flame? Like others have said, its going to be up to the women to do the heavy lifting.
Manfred: Are there enough sparks in Iran to create a flame???
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40. Comment #35463 by CDG on April 27, 2007 at 8:31 am
Manfred: I mean in any of your female relatives or friends back home specifically?Asking that I just thought that maybe you could think that I am an Iranian agent trying to find out the enemies of the state. Crazy
For the record, My name is Chris Govrik and I live in St. Paul MN...
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41. Comment #35477 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 9:49 am
Gee, CDG I would have never thought like that. Paranoid, I am not.You ask: "Are there enough sparks in Iran to create a flame???"
It depends on what you mean by flame. If you are hoping to see a revolt, I don't think so and
I do not wish it on anyone. We have had our fair share of revolution and see what happenned to us.
If you mean a gradual, steady reform for equal rights of women in particular and human rights in general; there were high hopes around 9 years ago, when we elected a president who although was a cleric but talked about civil society and reform and political freedoms. We were ecstatic and women who were one of his biggest supporters had high hopes. The whole thing collapsed after a few years, the reform movement almost died, and the only lesson I learned was that the system is so inflexible, it is impossible to reform it.
And I attirbute that in large part to the system being a religious one. There are definitely other social/political/cultural forces in play too; but when instead of civil law you have the 'Sharia', and the whole foundation of the political system is based on religion, there is little you can do to reform it.
In additon, there is no real organization, real political party, real tolerant opposition and so on. Ordinary people just want to have a descent life without oprression of course, but in most part I don't think they want to see religion out of the public.
There are some courageous people who try to work inside the system and bring about change and kudos to them, but personally I think these efforts only work if the mindsets change.
So, no I don't see any spark. At least not big enough to bring about any wide spread change as I said before.
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42. Comment #35478 by Luthien on April 27, 2007 at 9:53 am
32. Comment #35430 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 6:14 am
Luthien
Isn't it interesting that all systems based on religion, no matter what the details of the particular religion are, are so much like each other?
Many of the Christian Right fundamentalists in the US also remind me constantly of their Iranian Muslim counterpart.
Yes, I have thought about this myself, and I suspect it may be an example of the 'convergent evolution' of ideas. To keep control you want to have a population that is sexually frustrated, as they are more easily whipped up into a religious frenzy (or fervour, I'm not sure of the correct word). I would also imagine that men would think less without a partner that was equal in education, since they would not be able to discuss thoughts with their most intimate companion. In addition to this, a religion must want to maintain control over every new generation. Since women are genrally the "primary care givers" for children, you need to tightly control their thoughts and actions, or you risk them turning away from the religion. Over time I would think that any religions that did not adhere to the above concepts would gradually lose their grip on the population. Therefore any religion that does not seperate the sexes, and keep women supressed and uneducated, is not going to stand the test of time.
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43. Comment #35482 by Bonzai on April 27, 2007 at 10:06 am
Comment #35477 by Manfred"The whole thing collapsed after a few years, the reform movement almost died, and the only lesson I learned was that the system is so inflexible, it is impossible to reform it.."
I am not an expert in Iran, but I have a feeling that a lot of reforms in the developing countries are unsuccessful because the reformers usually come from highter socio economical strata and they often neglect bread and butter issues such as economical well being and security for the masses.
I am sure the collapse of reform in Iran has something to do with the inflexible religious mindset of the majority, but I think sometimes religion is just an expression of poorly articulated anxieties over other things.Scratch beneath it you may find more mundane reasons. I saw in a poll that said about 30% of Russians think it would be a good thing if Stalin rules Russia again. I think that speaks to the fact that many see their livelihood and pensions evaporated after the collapse of the Soviet Union rather than a fondness for Stalin.
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44. Comment #35484 by Vee eL on April 27, 2007 at 10:16 am
Knowing that there are perverts for every kind of fetish hobby, ther must be people who loved: "veils completely covering the hair and heavy coats or the black or gray head-to-toe chador hiding the shape of the body"
Catch a few of them, set them lose in Tehran, and I'm sure you will collect enough evidence that this kind of clothing could be labeled as: "inadequately dressed in public"
I'm looking forward for the new Iranian clothing collection.
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45. Comment #35497 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 11:31 am
Comment #35482 by Bonzai"I am not an expert in Iran, but I have a feeling that a lot of reforms in the developing countries are unsuccessful because the reformers usually come from highter socio economical strata and they often neglect bread and butter issues such as economical well being and security for the masses."
The problem in Iran was that the reformist did not even talk about economic problems. An overwhelming majority voted for them and gave them the control of the government and the parliament and city councils for 8 years just on their platform of political freedoms and civil society. I am not denying that they should have paid more attention to people's econimic grievances even if that was not a part of their campaign. This was probably one of the reasons that this madman is now president. His campaign was only on economic issues (not that he delivered).
In my opinion, the reformeists' problem was that more freedom (press, speech, political activity,...) sooner or later started questioning the religious red lines which by the way are the law of land. So if you want to stick to the law, you'll hit the legal barriers. Iranian reformists, like the majority, are religious. Only, they are moderates. But even they do not dare to raise the issue of separation of religion and State. They wanted to make compromises with the hardline religious establishment but it never worked beacause of the inherent inflexibility of the religious mind, on both sides.
Plus the political system in Iran is so complicated with so many religious organizations who have enormous political and media power, that the hardliners just knew how to exploit people's beliefs and economic plight.
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46. Comment #35516 by rooz on April 27, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Manfred,First let me start off by saying that I am an Iranian man who currently lives in San Diego, CA. I came to the U.S. when I was but a nine month old boy, so I have been rather Americanized. Add to that my parents divorced when I was young and both married non-Persians. This has all left me feeling a bit culturally disassociated and a bit sad because of it. But I digress.
After reading your posts, I get the impression that you came to the U.S. when you were young as well. Is this the case? If so, how do you stay so connected to the climate in Iran? Please understand, I am not doubting you at all; I am just curious. Do you have many friends and family still there? I suppose that would be an excellent source of info.
As a final note--regarding the reform movement: I had a tremendous amount of hope that it would gain some serious traction several years ago. I remember reading articles where the younger generations were standing up to the old(er) conservatives and actually getting away with it. I remember watching a soccer game between the U.S. and Iran several years ago--the first in many years. Afterward, the two teams embraced and all posed for a picture. The symbolism was inescapable. I felt that my two worlds, so long at odds, were actually beginning to come together. Then Ahmadinejad got elected. While not quite back to square one, it was close enough. Is the govt in Iran simply suppressing the enthusiasm of the young for more amicable relations with the west, or has that enthusiasm simply cooled? I hope it is, well, neither. I fear that it may be both.
Rooz
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47. Comment #35526 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 1:30 pm
RoozI came to the US when I was 24 for graduate school (I am 32 now). I was in Iran when the reform movement started and yes, my family still live in Iran. Plus there are lots of news sources online where you can read about home.
I think people have become completely indifferent after the failure of reformists. Granted, the economic situation is terrible and they are trying to make the ends meet. Add to that all the incompetence and mismanagements. But the regime was never one to encourage public happiness. They want to cloak eveything with a religious veil, and I am not only talking about women's dress here.
The harrasment of the youth has always been there. Its intensity just oscillates up and down. And people just shut up and put up. I don't blame them. I did the same until I left. There is almost nothing one can do without conequences. The fact that I am brought up in a non-religious family did not matter much. In public, you have to pretend to believe even if you don't. We somehow knew we shouldn't talk. I don't remember my parents even telling me how to behave outside our home. I just knew there are things that I should never utter, otherwise my family and I will be in trouble. It becomes quite normal actually. You don't even see the absurdity. It hit me hard though when I left and looked at it from outside.
Although that is only me. I know many Iranians living abroad who still don't think the root of the problem is religion and theocracy and still want a solution where Islam and democracy coexist. I do not think that concoction is possible to brew.
Some say they harras people to distract them from the economy or their disaster of foreign policy or the nuclear issue... who knows. Maybe. Or maybe they just think that's their divine duty.
A top cleric just said today that loose dress code for women is worse than robbery and murder!
And source of all moral decay. Well, I don't think this "man of God" does not believe what he says. I think the biggest part of the problem is in the religious mindset which is against free thought.
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48. Comment #35546 by rooz on April 27, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Manfred,I have seen various internet sites reporting on the situations in Iran, but I am never sure if they are reliable--other than the major publications, of course.
I must say, it is not often that I encounter Iranian atheists. I am fairly certain that I am the only one in San Diego. It is quite refreshing. While most of my family is not very religious, they are definitely not atheists. In fact my mother wasn't very pleased about it when she found out.
Where did you go to grad school and what did you study?
Rooz
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49. Comment #35557 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 3:39 pm
RoozNo way that you are the only Iranian atheist in SD. I have few Iranian friends in the US who are either atheists or agnostics.
Not everyone qustions the God hypothesis. People just accept it out of tradition or respect for family members, if nothing else.
My father is an atheist and my mother is so very mildly religious and had no problem in her children's lack of beleif. As for me, I cannot remember believing at anytime, except for couple of times that I struggled with some questions and the answers always ended up in non-belief.
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50. Comment #35566 by Manfred on April 27, 2007 at 3:56 pm
Oh, and I have studied physics in Boston.Other Comments by Manfred
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1. Comment #35224 by Friend Giskard on April 26, 2007 at 3:55 pm
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