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Monday, April 30, 2007 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Why the Gods Are Not Winning

by Edge, Gregory Paul & Phil Zuckerman

Thanks to Ranjani for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/paul07/paul07_index.html

A myth is gaining ground. The myth seems plausible enough. The proposition is that after God died in the secular 20th century, He is back in a big way as people around the world again find faith. In 2006 Foreign Policy ran two articles that made similar, yet distinctive claims. In the spring Phillip Longman's "The Return of the Patriarchy" contended that secular folk are reproducing themselves, or failing to reproduce themselves, out of existence as the believers swiftly reproduce via a "process similar to survival of the fittest." In the summer FP followed up with "Why God is Winning" by Samuel Shah and Monica Duffy Toft, who pronounced that the Big Three— Christianity, Islam and Hinduism—are back on the global march as secularism fades into irrelevance. In the fall Foreign Affairs joined the chorus when Walter Russell Mead's God's Country? gave the impression that conservative theism continues to rise in a United States jolted back to the spiritual by 9/11. In American Fascists Chris Hedges warns that hard-core Dominionists are accumulating the power to convert the nation into a fundamentalist theocracy.

The actual situation, as is usual in human affairs, much more complex and nuanced, and therefore much more fascinating. Let's start by considering the analytical superficiality that mars the twin articles in Foreign Policy. While Longman proposes that rapid reproduction is the primary agent behind the resurgence of patriarchal faith, Shah and Toft think it is mainly a matter democratic choice in which younger generations reject their parent's secularism. In reality all these claims are well off base. Religion is in serious trouble. The status of faith is especially dire in the west, where the churches face an unprecedented crisis that threatens the existence of organized faith as a viable entity, and there is surprisingly little that can be done to change the circumstances.

Shah and Toft cite the World Christian Encyclopedia as supporting a planetary revival because its shows that "at the beginning of the 21st century, a greater portion of the world's population adhered to [Christianity, Islam and Hinduism] in 2000 than a century earlier." They point to a table in the WCE that shows that the largest Christian and largest nonChristian faiths, Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam and Hinduism, rose from half to nearly two thirds of the world in the 1900s. But that it is a peculiar choice of sects. If every Mohammedan and Hindu sect large and small is tallied, shouldn't every Orthodox, Coptic and so on be too? Another look at the WCE table shows that all Christians, Muslims and Hindus combined edging up a much more modest 60 to 66% (but see below correction) since the reign of Queen Victoria.

What scheme of thought did soar in the 20th century? Although Shah and Toft cite the WCE when it appears to aid their thesis, they seem to have missed key passages near the beginning of the work. The evangelical authors of the WCE lament that no Christian "in 1900 expected the massive defections from Christianity that subsequently took place in Western Europe due to secularism…. and in the Americas due to materialism…. The number of nonreligionists…. throughout the 20th century has skyrocketed from 3.2 million in 1900, to 697 million in 1970, and on to 918 million in AD 2000…. Equally startling has been the meteoritic growth of secularism…. Two immense quasi-religious systems have emerged at the expense of the world's religions: agnosticism…. and atheism…. From a miniscule presence in 1900, a mere 0.2% of the globe, these systems…. are today expanding at the extraordinary rate of 8.5 million new converts each year, and are likely to reach one billion adherents soon. A large percentage of their members are the children, grandchildren or the great-great-grandchildren of persons who in their lifetimes were practicing Christians" (italics added). (The WCE probably understates today's nonreligious. They have Christians constituting 68-94% of nations where surveys indicate that a quarter to half or more are not religious, and they may overestimate Chinese Christians by a factor of two. In that case the nonreligious probably soared past the billion mark already, and the three great faiths total 64% at most.)

Far from providing unambiguous evidence of the rise of faith, the devout compliers of the WCE document what they characterize as the spectacular ballooning of secularism by a few hundred-fold! It has no historical match. It dwarfs the widely heralded Mormon climb to 12 million during the same time, even the growth within Protestantism of Pentecostals from nearly nothing to half a billion does not equal it.

Yet Longman, and especially Shah and Toft, left readers with the impression that Christianity, Islam and Hinduism are each regaining the international initiative against secularism. Again we can turn to the WCE, whose results are presented in the pie charts (with the above adjustment, and with the proviso that the stats are inevitably approximations).

graph

Since 1900 Christians have made up about a third of the global population, and are edging downwards. No growth there. Hindus are coasting at a seventh the total, no significant increase there either even though India adds more people each year than any other nation. The WCE predicts no proportional increase for these faiths by 2050. The flourishing revival of two megareligions whether by democracy, edification, or fecundity is therefore a mirage. Having shrunk by a quarter in the 20th century, Buddhism is predicted to shrink almost as much over the next half century. Once rivaling Christianity, paganism – whether it be ancient or modern as per New Ageism and Scientology — has over all contracted by well over half and is expected to continue to dwindle.

One Great Faith has risen from one eighth to one fifth of the globe in a hundred years, and is projected to rise to one quarter by 2050. Islam. But education and the vote have little to do with it. Generally impoverished and poorly educated, most Muslims live in nations where democracy is minimalist or absent. Nor are many infidels converting to Allah. Longman was correct on one point; Islam is growing because Muslims are literally having lots of unprotected sex. The absence of a grand revival of Christ, Allah and Vishnu worship via democratic free choice brings us to a point, as important as it is little appreciated — the chronic inability of religion to recruit new adherents on a consistent, global basis.

It is well documented that Christianity has withered dramatically in Europe, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Japan. The failure of the faith in the west is regularly denounced by Popes and Protestant leaders. Churches are being converted into libraries, laundromats and pubs. Those who disbelieve in deities typically make up large portions of the population, according to some surveys they make up the majority of citizens in Scandinavia, France and Japan. Evolution is accepted by the majority in all secular nations, up to four in five in some.

In his paper "Christianity in Britain, R. I. P." Steve Bruce explains that the recent rise of pagans is not nearly sufficiently to make up for the implosion of the churches, which are in danger of dwindling past the demographic and organizational point of no return. A commission of the Church of England agreed, proposing that little attended Sabbath services be dropped, and concluding that the advent of modern lifestyles "coincides with the demise of Christendom." The church commissioned Making Sense of Generation Y study advised the clergy to "avoid panic." Perhaps that response would be appropriate considering the absence of quantitative evidence of a significant Christian revival in any secularized democracy. God belief is not dead in these nonreligious democracies, but it is on life support. The ardent hopes of C. S. Lewis and John Paul II to reChristianize Europe have abjectly failed.

EuroMuslims may become a theological plurality by outnumbering active Christians in a few decades, but that does not mean much in the context of a shrinking Christian minority. In most western nations Muslims are less than one percent to under three. The only exceptions are the Netherlands at five percent, and France at ten, and the native French have the highest birth rate in western Europe.

The mass loss of popular faith in the Eurocultures is often waved away as an isolated aberration in a world still infatuated with the gods. After all, who cares what the "old Europe" of France and Sweden is up to? This is a big mistake. Such a thing has never been seen before in history. And where it has happened is critical to the future of faith. Aside from constituting proof of principle that religion is dangerously vulnerable to modernity, that secularism and disbelief do best in nations that are the most democratic, educated and prosperous directly falsifies the Shah and Toft thesis that these factors are the allies of religiosity.

But hasn't the loss of faith in old Europe been matched by a great revival in new Europe? In his account of his voyage along the Siberian Lena River, Jeffrey Taylor in River of No Reprieve observed that the locals remain atheistic, and the religious minority seems more nationalistic than devout. This premise is applicable to former KGV officer Putin's embrace of the Russian Orthodox church, which had tight connections with the Czarist secret police. Just a quarter of Russians absolutely believe in God, the portion who say that religion is important in their lives are down in the teens, and irreligion may be continuing to rise in very atheistic eastern Germany and the Czech Republic. Even in Poland, the one eastern bloc nation in which religion played an important role in overturning atheistic communism, just one third consider religion to be very important in their lives, and faith is declining towards the old European norm. It turns out that the "new" Europe is not turning out particularly godly.

The Central Kingdom has never been especially religious, became atheistic under communism, and is striving for world dominance via materialistic consumerism. The finding by the Shanghai university poll that religious Chinese lifted from 100 million in the 1960s to 300 million resulted in headlines along the lines of "Poll Finds Surge of Religion Among Chinese." But the 300 million figure is far below the 600 million religious estimated by the World Christian Encyclopedia, and is less than a third of the adult population. Nor should monotheists be particularly comforted. The survey uncovered 40 million Christians, about half the inflated estimate in the WCE, and just 4% of the adult population. Most religious Chinese are Buddhists and Taoists, or worship the likes of the God of Fortune, the Black Dragon and the Dragon King. By the way, The Economist says women are using religion as a way to battle traditional Chinese patriarchy. If the survey is correct that over two thirds of Chinese are not religious then they may approach a billion in China alone, expanding the global total even further.

Mass devotion remains strong in most of the 2nd and 3rd world, but even there there is theistic concern. South of our border a quarter to over half the population describe religion as only somewhat important in their lives. Rather than becoming more patriarchal as democracy and education expand, Mexico is liberalizing as progressive forces successfully push laws favoring abortion and gay rights to the vexation of the Roman and evangelical churches. There is even trouble for Islam in its own realm. A third of Turks think religion is not highly important in their lives, and Iranian urban youth have been highly secularized in reaction to the inept corruption of the Mullahs. In Asia 40% of the citizens of booming South Korea don't believe in God, and only a quarter (most evangelical Christians) identify themselves as strongly religious.

Doesn't America, the one western nation where two thirds absolutely believe in God, and nine in ten think there is some form of higher power, show that religion can thrive in an advanced democracy? Not necessarily.

A decade and a half of sampling finds conservative (thought to be about two thirds to four fifths of the total of) evangelicals and born-agains consistently stuck between a quarter and a third of the population. The majority that considers religion very important in their lives dropped from over two thirds in the 1960s to a bare majority in 1970s and 1980s, and appeared to edge up in the Clinton era. But instead of rising post 9/11 as many predicted, it is slipping again.

Those who feel the opposite about religion doubled between the 1960s and 1970s, have been fairly stable since then, but have been edging up in recent years. American opinion on the issue of human evolution from animals has been rock steady, about half agreeing, about half disagreeing, for a quarter century. What has changed is how people view the Bible. In the 1970s nearly four in ten took the testaments literally, just a little over one in ten thought it was a mixture of history, fables, and legends, a three to one ratio in favor of the Biblical view. Since then a persistent trend has seen literalism decline to between a quarter and a third of the population, and skeptics have doubled to nearly one in five. If the trend continues the fableists will equal and then surpass the literalists in a couple of decades.

graph2

Even the megachurch phenomenon is illusory. A spiritual cross of sports stadiums with theme parks, hi-tech churches are a desperate effort to pull in and satisfy a mass-media jaded audience for whom the old sit in the pews and listen to the standard sermon and sing some old time hymns does not cut it anymore. Rather than boosting church membership, megachurches are merely consolidating it.

From a high of three quarters of the population in the 1930s to 1960s, a gradual, persistent decline has set in, leaving some clerics distressed at the growing abandonment of small churches as the big ones gobble up what is left of the rest. Weekly religious service attendance rose only briefly in the months after 9/11—evidence that the event failed to stem national secularization – and then lost ground as the Catholic sex scandal damaged church credibility. As few as one in four or five Americans are actually in church on a typical Sunday, only a few percent of them in megachurches.

In his Foreign Affairs article Mead noted that conservative Southern Baptists constitute the largest church in the states, and they are among the most evangelical. Mead did not note that a Southern Baptist church release laments that "evangelistically, the denomination is on a path of slow but discernable deterioration." The greatest born again sect is baptizing members at the same absolute yearly rate as they did half a century ago, when the population was half as large, and in the last few years the overall trend has been downwards.

Rather than Amerofaith becoming deeply patriarchal as Longman thinks, it is increasingly feminine. Women church goers greatly outnumber men, who find church too dull. Here's the kicker. Children tend to pick up their beliefs from their fathers. So, despite a vibrant evangelical youth cohort, young Americans taken as a whole are the least religious and most culturally tolerant age group in the nation.

One group has experienced rapid growth. In the 1940s and 50s 1-2% usually responded no asked if they believe in God, up to 98% said yes. A Harris study specifically designed to arrive at the best current figure found that 9% do not believe in a creator, and 12% are not sure. The over tenfold expansion of Amerorationalism easily outpaces the Mormon and Pentecostal growth rates over the same half century.

America's disbelievers atheists now number 30 million, most well educated and higher income, and they far outnumber American Jews, Muslims and Mormons combined. There are many more disbelievers than Southern Baptists, and the god skeptics are getting more recruits than the evangelicals.

The rise of American rationalism is based on adult choice—secularists certainly not growing via rapid reproduction. The results can be seen on the bookshelves, as aggressively atheistic books such as Sam Harris' The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion, and Daniel C. Dennett's Breaking the Spell, break the mainstream publishing barrier onto the best-sellers lists. Long disparaged as neither moral or American, the growing community is beginning to assert itself as a socio-political force.


What is actually happening here and abroad is a great polarization as increasingly anxious and often desperate hard-core believers mount a vigorous counterrevolution via extreme levels of activism to the first emergence of mass apostasy in history. No major religion is expanding its share of the global population by conversion in any circumstances, much less educated democracy. Disbelief in the supernatural alone is able to achieve extraordinary rates of growth by voluntary conversion. Why?

It is to be expected that in 2nd and 3rd world nations where wealth is concentrated among an elite few and the masses are impoverished that the great majority cling to the reassurance of faith.

Nor is it all that surprising that faith has imploded in most of the west. Every single 1st world nation that is irreligious shares a set of distinctive attributes. These include handgun control, anti-corporal punishment and anti-bullying policies, rehabilitative rather than punitive incarceration, intensive sex education that emphasizes condom use, reduced socio-economic disparity via tax and welfare systems combined with comprehensive health care, increased leisure time that can be dedicated to family needs and stress reduction, and so forth.

As a result the great majority enjoy long, safe, comfortable, middle class lives that they can be confident will not be lost due to factors beyond their control. It is hard to lose one's middle class status in Europe, Canada and so forth, and modern medicine is always accessible regardless of income. Nor do these egalitarians culture emphasize the attainment of immense wealth and luxury, so most folks are reasonably satisfied with what they have got. Such circumstances dramatically reduces peoples' need to believe in supernatural forces that protect them from life's calamities, help them get what they don't have, or at least make up for them with the ultimate Club Med of heaven. One of us (Zuckerman) interviewed secular Europeans and verified that the process of secularization is casual; most hardly think about the issue of God, not finding the concept relevant to their contented lives.

The result is plain to see. Not a single advanced democracy that enjoys benign, progressive socio-economic conditions retains a high level of popular religiosity. They all go material.

It is the great anomaly, the United States, that has long perplexed sociologists. America has a large, well educated middle class that lives in comfort—so why do they still believe in a supernatural creator? Because they are afraid and insecure. Arbitrary dismissal from a long held job, loss of health insurance followed by an extended illness, excessive debt due to the struggle to live like the wealthy; before you know it a typical American family can find itself financially ruined. Overwhelming medical bills are a leading cause of bankruptcy.

In part to try to accumulate the wealth needed to try to prevent financial catastrophe, in part to compete in a culture of growing economic disparity with the super rich, the typical American is engaged in a Darwinian, keeping up with the Jones competition in which failure to perform to expectations further raises levels of psychological stress. It is not, therefore, surprising that most look to friendly forces from the beyond to protect them from the pitfalls of a risky American life, and if that fails compensate with a blissful eternal existence.

The effect can be more direct. For instance, the absence of universal health care encourages the utilization of faith-based medical charities. The latter, as well intentioned as they are, cannot provide the comprehensive health services that best suppress mortality at all ages. But charities extend the reach of the churches into the secular community, enhancing their ability to influence society and politics, and retain and recruit members.

Rather than religion being an integral part of the American character, the main reason the United States is the only prosperous democracy that retains a high level of religious belief and activity is because we have substandard socio-economic conditions and the highest level of disparity. The other factors widely thought to be driving forces behind mass faith—desire for the social links provided by churches, fear of societal amorality, fear of death, genetic predisposition towards religiosity, etc—are not critical simply because hundreds of millions have freely accepted being nonreligious mortals in a dozen and a half democracies. Such motives and factors can be operative only if socio-economic circumstances are sufficiently poor to sustain mass creationism and religion.

So much for the common belief that supernatural-based religiosity is the default mode inherent to the human condition. What about the hypothesis that has gained wide currency, that competition between the plethora of churches spawned by the separation of church and state is responsible for America's highly religious population? Australia and New Zealand copied the American separation between church and state in their constitutions, yet they are much more irreligious. Meanwhile the most religious advanced democracies in Europe are those where the Catholic church is, or was, dominant.

To put it starkly, the level of popular religion is not a spiritual matter, it is actually the result of social, political and especially economic conditions (please note we are discussing large scale, long term population trends, not individual cases). Mass rejection of the gods invariably blossoms in the context of the equally distributed prosperity and education found in almost all 1st world democracies. There are no exceptions on a national basis. That is why only disbelief has proven able to grow via democratic conversion in the benign environment of education and egalitarian prosperity. Mass faith prospers solely in the context of the comparatively primitive social, economic and educational disparities and poverty still characteristic of the 2nd and 3rd worlds and the US.

We can also explain why America is has become increasingly at odds with itself. On one hand the growing level of socio-economic disparity that is leaving an increasing portion of the population behind in the socially Darwinian rat-race is boosting levels of hard-line religiosity in the lower classes. On the other hand freedom from belief in the supernatural is rising among the growing segment that enjoys higher incomes and sophisticated education. Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Ted Turner, Richard Branson and Rupert Murdoch are typical upper crust disbelievers.

The practical implications are equally breath taking. Every time a nation becomes truly advanced in terms of democratic, egalitarian education and prosperity it loses the faith. It's guaranteed. That is why perceptive theists are justifiably scared. In practical terms their only practical hope is for nations to continue to suffer from socio-economic disparity, poverty and maleducation. That strategy is, of course, neither credible nor desirable. And that is why the secular community should be more encouraged.


Skepticism of the transcendent has not swept the planet with the completeness expected by some in the 20th century. Doing so would have required the conversion to atheism of an unattainable 50 million people a year in a world where the great majority chronically lack the high level of science-oriented education, secure prosperity, and democracy that spontaneous disbelief depends upon. The expectation of global atheism was correspondingly naïve, and will remain so as billions live in, or fear living in, substandard conditions. Which should not comfort theists. Even so, theists are equally naïve when they dream that faith can retake the entire world.

Disbelief now rivals the great faiths in numbers and influence. Never before has religion faced such enormous levels of disbelief, or faced a hazard as powerful as that posed by modernity. How is organized religion going to regain the true, choice-based initiative when only one of them is growing, and it is doing so with reproductive activity rather than by convincing the masses to join in, when no major faith is proving able to grow as they break out of their ancestral lands via mass conversion, and when securely prosperous democracies appear immune to mass devotion? The religious industry simply lacks a reliable stratagem for defeating disbelief in the 21st century.

Even though liberal, pro-evolution religions are not at fault for unacceptable social policies, organized faith cannot reform itself by supporting successful secular social arrangements because these actions inadvertently suppress popular religiosity. They are caught in a classic Catch-22. And liberal churches are even less able to thrive in advanced democracies than are their more conservative counterparts, so if churches, temples and mosques become matriarchal by socio-politically liberalizing they risk secularizing themselves into further insignificance.

In Commonweal Peter Quinn contends that Stephen Gould, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris have sanitized the social philosophy of Charles Darwin, which was not sufficiently kindly and tolerant to produce "the sole and true foundation for a humanistic society, free of the primitive and dangerous irrationality of religious belief."

Aside from the above nontheists never having promoted Darwin's personal world-view as the sole fountain of societal goodness, Quinn is making the even bigger mistake—the same mistake nearly everyone is making—of believing that the contest between popular faith and secularism is an epic struggle of ideas that then determines the quality of societies. But the level and nature of popular faith is really set by economic conditions, and only secular egalitarian prosperous democracies that reject extreme social Darwinism can produce the best practical conditions.

Assuming America continues to secularize towards the 1st world norm then what can we expect? The decline in faith-based conservative ideology is predicted to allow the country to adopt the progressive policies that have been proven to work in the rest of the west, and vice-versa. Even Wal-Mart has come out in favor of universal medical coverage as bottom-line busting health care expenditures compel the corporations to turn towards the system that has done so much harm to the churches of Europe. If and when religion declines in the states Darwin's science will automatically benefit enormously as it has in ungodly Europe, but Darwinistic social policies will not fare as well as they have in Christian America.

In the end what humanity chooses to believe will be more a matter of economics than of debate, deliberately considered choice, or reproduction. The more national societies that provide financial and physical security to the population, the fewer that will be religiously devout. The more that cannot provide their citizens with these high standards the more that will hope that supernatural forces will alleviate their anxieties. It is probable that there is little that can be done by either side to alter this fundamental pattern.

GREGORY PAUL is an independent researcher on subjects dealing with paleontology, evolution, religion and society. Books include Predatory Dinosaurs of the World and Dinosaurs of the Air.

PHIL ZUCKERMAN is a sociologist at Pitzer, and the author of Invitation to the Sociology of Religion, Du Bois on Religion, and Sex and Religion.

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1. Comment #36314 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on April 30, 2007 at 10:48 pm

 avatarMy own deconversion, activity on youtube and a general sense of desperation among my former Christian friends, leads me to the conclusion that the thrust of this article is spot on.

America becomes the pivotal piece in this metaphysical chess game. We need universal healthcare in america as desperatly as americans do!!! The sooner they get it, the sooner the apostasty can complete.

Great article.

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2. Comment #36315 by BAEOZ on April 30, 2007 at 10:51 pm

 avatarGood article. Since reading the God Delusion, I've wondered how the hell we can secularize people. They seem so in love with their faith. Arguing with a devout believer is like arguing with someone who's madly in love. They won't tolerate critism of their lover.
From my understanding of this article, if we can improve people's living conditions and education (both very worthy efforts in their own rights) people will not need their lover to make them feel good and dump the deadbeat!!!
Does that sound reasonable?
Anyway, here in OZ we have a mendacious, conservative PM who is taking away unfair dismissal rights from employees and dismantling our basically fair social security/health system. That's it! He's not getting my vote next election.

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3. Comment #36316 by kirkmc on April 30, 2007 at 10:52 pm

I think it's safe to say that the 1900 figure underestimates Muslims. It is therefore not a valid base to examine.

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4. Comment #36317 by Jolly Wally on April 30, 2007 at 10:53 pm

Very interesting. Alright atheists, let's get those genes propogating! ;P

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5. Comment #36322 by troodon on April 30, 2007 at 11:30 pm

Now this makes sense to me. I never could buy into that argument that America's religiosity was caused by the constitutional separation of church and state.

Reading this I couldn't help but think of Mother Teresa, who has been described as a "friend of poverty" rather than a "friend of the poor". She certainly had it figured out, at least at a subconscious level.

Definitely a reason to feel a bit more optimistic.

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6. Comment #36326 by Machinus on April 30, 2007 at 11:53 pm

"But the level and nature of popular faith is really set by economic conditions, and only secular egalitarian prosperous democracies that reject extreme social Darwinism can produce the best practical conditions."

What about intelligence? Surely there is some correlation between smarter people and an appetite for rigorous and honestly satisfying ideas. Are you seriously trying to reduce the entirety of cultural philosophy to economics?

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7. Comment #36329 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 12:03 am

"Mass rejection of the gods invariably blossoms in the context of the equally distributed prosperity and education found in almost all 1st world democracies. There are no exceptions on a national basis."

Equally distributed prosperity in Britain! You must be kidding.

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8. Comment #36333 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 12:37 am

 avatarThere is an interesting point at: "Rather than Amerofaith becoming deeply patriarchal as Longman thinks, it is increasingly feminine. Women church goers greatly outnumber men, who find church too dull"

I dont know about other parts of the UK, but if you look around a lot of the churches in Scotland, they are very heavily biased in the female direction. Possibly this is due to a large % of congregations being aged, so women will dominate anyway. Men just die younger. That simple.

But I have also seen this among younger "trendy" (!!!!) evangie types - women are more likely than men to have bible study groups and so on.

Also, you will also find a heavy bias towards women when you look at New Age groups and stuff like that, they tend to have a feminist edge.

It's almost a if men are not so predisposed towards superstition. That is not meant to be a sexist statement BTW! Just an observation.

I remember talking to one of my wife's friends a few years ago - she was bemoaning the fact that although she went to an evangelical church in the city, the place was hopeless when it came to men. Most of the men who were there were insipid, weak sort of types - or just weirdos. A lot of the young women there (and there were quite a few) were really pretty, intelligent and cute. What a waste.


And of course, they dont want to be "unequally yoked with an unbeliever" So they are severely limited in this respect. Marry a complete tosser (who they KNOW is a tosser) so that they can have a proper "christian " marriage. Or grow old and unloved, bitter spinsters. Never mind, they get their reward in heaven...... Its actually quite sad.

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9. Comment #36335 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 12:39 am

One of the most disturbing aspects of a book like 'The God Delusion' is the ability of an urbane, well respected and very nice Oxford Don to ignite violent passions in others.

One of the strands already emerging from the book is that 'religious people' are in some sense less intelligent. I'm not suggesting for one second that Richard proposes that notion, rather that others will draw that conclusion from his ideas.

Ideas do evolve (in a non-biological sense). Survival of the fittest may give rise to the notion of survival of the most intelligent, or survival of the master race. My parents lived through the horrors of pre-war Germany and WW2 and the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker.

A few years ago when asked what were the major benefits of the French Revolution the then Chinese leader (sorry can't remember his name) wryly commented, "It's too early to say".

So beware on two counts. First if there is a God he will be having a good hearty laugh at the idea that "The Gods are not winning". The decline of religion is hardly a new phenomenon after all. Have a look at the book of Judges in the Bible. Second be very careful about claiming that atheist have attained a higher consciousness or intelligence.

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10. Comment #36338 by Beachbum on May 1, 2007 at 12:45 am

 avatarIt has always bothered me to note that in 41 years of disbelief, I have continually found that my arguments where met with the typical rebuttals for the, it seemed to me, most absurd reasons. Allow me to lament, "Everyone else believes, why don't you?" "Just because..." and my personal favorite, "Hey, if there is no god, no one goes to heaven. If there is one, just you don't." This particular quip hit me hard, hard enough to open my eyes. Hypocrite and a clergy, but why?
In pondering the past 'reasonings' of my argumentative opponents, I found fear, but I thought it was the fear of "hell" or a peer group, maybe a fear of chastisement at their church. Obviously, the preacher wanted me to hedge my bet. Now I find people, in the US, hold on to their superstitions to guard against losing their credit ratings. They are afraid of poverty. Now that is the second most irrational conclusion Amercans will come up with, to date. I mean, doesn't the bible say that Jesus was poor? What about the needle through the eye of a camel, or whatever?
Oh, and thank you for posting this article, it is very informative.

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11. Comment #36340 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 12:49 am

Scottish Geologist might like to look at a book called "Why Men Hate Going To Church" by David Murrow especially page 182 where Dorothy Cassel discovered that it was her language that was turning men off.

When she introduced words like 'achievement', 'power', 'battle' and 'purpose' two things happened. The class on 'Experiencing God' doubled in size and the prportion of men attending leapt to 60%.

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12. Comment #36346 by StewE17 on May 1, 2007 at 1:11 am

Devolved: the Chinese premier who commented on the French Revolution was Zhou Enlai.

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13. Comment #36349 by BAEOZ on May 1, 2007 at 1:24 am

 avatar"First if there is a God " a huge stretch there devolved. If there is a God, it won't be like any described by a human. They are all so pathetically human as to be ungodlike (read the bible if you need proof).

"Have a look at the book of Judges in the Bible" Why not have a look at the Illiad? Just as factual, much more interesting and it had people being punished for not believing in imaginary beings.

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14. Comment #36352 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 1:28 am

 avatardevolved, Ah yes, book of Judges. Fine piece of prose. Heres an excerpt:

22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the mans house where her lord was, till it was light.

27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.


"Word of God?" Or the words of bronze age savages? Chechclear (go look it up) doesnt come close.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

15. Comment #36355 by MartinSGill on May 1, 2007 at 1:35 am

 avatarAn excellent article, it confirms many things I have already suspected, and also highlights many issues and connections I'd not yet drawn myself.

It also paints a very poor picture of the United States, in terms of social maturity.

Mass faith prospers solely in the context of the comparatively primitive social, economic and educational disparities and poverty still characteristic of the 2nd and 3rd worlds and the US.


Lumping the US in with 2nd & 3rd world countries might well get you accused of anti-Americanism, yet it's still a bit surprising to actually hear it from americans.

America has achieved so much despite it's extremely poor social and welfare system. I wonder how much more they could achieve if social welfare matched that of the rest of the western world.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

16. Comment #36365 by Enblomst on May 1, 2007 at 1:55 am

devolved wrote:
...pre-war Germany and WW2 and the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker.

So, you somehow managed to link atheism and the horrors of nazi Germany did you? That's uncanny, really.

Other Comments by Enblomst

17. Comment #36366 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 2:01 am

Scottishgeologist: I live near a mosque and see competely the opposite. The congregation seems to be 100% male. Can't understand why.....

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18. Comment #36371 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 2:25 am

 avatarFurther to devolveds comments about David Murrow, I have checked this guy out - seems that if you use macho, militaristic swaggering man-talk, then more men go to church. Great, just great. Lets produce a bunch of gun toting faith heads, just like these islamists, lets fire them up with the language that guys use, that'll really make the world a better place.

Check out this:

http://www.churchformen.com/

if you really want to despair, look at that web site. Dont bother buying an emetic if you feel ill - just look at that stuff.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

19. Comment #36374 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 2:32 am

Great link scottishgeologist. You only have to read a couple of lines until you get to:

"Islam is a religion that produces results. Islam promises to give you a family immune from divorce, teen pregnancy, drug and alcohol addiction. The statistics bear this out. A man looking to shepherd his family today notices that Muslim girls don't go around in halter-tops and navel rings and their women don't watch "Desperate Housewives."

No, instead Islam gives results like inter-marital beatings and rape, rape of women for the crimes of men and ritual murder of daughters bringing "dishonour".

Church of Men indeed.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

20. Comment #36378 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 2:42 am

Actually the website is thoroughly amusing. christian men threatened by the notion of loving jesus.

"Will you introduce boys to a wild and manly Jesus (instead of gentle Jesus, meek and mild)?"

I was going to say it was homophobic, but now I'm not so sure...

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

21. Comment #36385 by MartinSGill on May 1, 2007 at 2:59 am

 avatarComment #36340 by devolved:

My grand parents lived through Nazi Germany, and I grew up in Germany and let's get one thing clear, those events had zero to do with atheism. If anything they had to do with Hitler's view that he was the avenging hand of god. You can argue all you like if Hitler was a Christian or not, but one thing he wasn't was atheist.

Hitler's view of survival of the fittest has more to do with selection and discrimination than with any non-religious belief system; actually, if you examine the religious view that only true believers go to heaven you could argue that that is survival of the fittest. Only those fit enough to believe fully in God are saved, the rest go to hell.

In point of fact Hitler was greatly influenced by Arthur de Gobineau's ideas of struggle for survival between the different races.

He was also opposed to any concept of atheism:

"We were convinced that the people need and require this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out".

Source: Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, Oxford University Press, 1942

One day maybe the religious will actually check up on their facts. Although, if they swallow the greater myth of a virgin-born, resurrecting, split-persona deity then the myth that Hitler was an atheist must be that much easier to swallow.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

22. Comment #36396 by newatheist on May 1, 2007 at 3:31 am

 avatarDevolved -

You said - "the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker."

a·the·ist [ey-thee-ist]
–noun a person who denies or disbelieves the existence of a supreme being or beings.

Hmmm. Not much in there about a person who has ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker. I believe what you're describing can most closely be described as eugenics.

eu·gen·ics [yoo-jen-iks]
–noun (used with a singular verb) the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, esp. by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

Eugenics is not atheism.

Other Comments by newatheist

23. Comment #36416 by _J_ on May 1, 2007 at 4:36 am

 avatarI was brought up with Star Trek, in which a culturally diverse gang of optimistic atheists from a state that provides universal healthcare and has even (improbably) done away with money itself spends its time discovering humanity in science, exploration and prosthetic foreheads.

As this was supposed to be the future, I've found the apparent resurgence of religiosity very disheartening. It's nice to read the above article and find that not only is secularity coming along nicely, but that Gene Roddenberry got his associations right after all.

Scottishgeologist and others: my experience of church in Britain also reveals it to abound with ladies. It does indeed seem that Men are from Mohamed, Women are from Jesus. Perhaps a marriage and a relocation to the suburbs is in order. Apparently Gliese 581c is nice at this time of year.

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24. Comment #36419 by bouwe on May 1, 2007 at 4:40 am

Reply to----# 9. Comment #36335 by devolved

devolved wrote:

"...the horrors of pre-war Germany and WW2 and the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker."

Yeah, that well-documented atheistic urge to kill Jewish people that we all know about. I mean, where else could that hatred come from? lol.

I will assume you are referring to things like eugenics -- but that also has nothing to do with atheism. You can be a god-believer and a eugenicist, or social-darwinist for that matter.

devolved wrote:

"...and the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker."

This is not the "outworking of an atheistic idea". Atheism, as newatheist (above) just pointed out, is simply the absence of a belief in a god. In fact, atheism isn't even an "idea". Eugenics is an idea, and a theist may subscribe to it just as an atheist might (or might not!).

The only sense that it is an "atheistic idea" is the sense that it does not have "god" as a part of its consideration at all. And in that absurd sense, everything without god in its consideration (one way or another) is an "atheistic idea". The game of cricket is a set of "atheistic ideas" - are you gonna blame atheists for England's poor showing in the world cup?

(I'm an Aussie, ha ha)

Other Comments by bouwe

25. Comment #36421 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 1, 2007 at 4:49 am

 avatar9. Comment #36335 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 12:39 am

One of the strands already emerging from the book is that 'religious people' are in some sense less intelligent.


I think this is fairly uncontroversial. As a group, religious people are on average typically less intelligent, informed and materially well off. Some religious people are very intelligent, and some are incredibly dense just like with atheists, but atheists have the edge in the average.

In addition atheist societies (insofar as they are democratic) have better health and social indicators than religious societies. There are several well regarded studies that show this.

My parents lived through the horrors of pre-war Germany and WW2 and the outworking of atheistic ideas of making the world better by eliminating the weaker.

Hopefully my Dogma video will straighten you out on this score. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsis-motuY

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

26. Comment #36433 by _J_ on May 1, 2007 at 5:25 am

 avatar25. Comment #36421 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

---Hopefully my Dogma video will straighten you out...---

Nice video!

By the way, I wonder if your 'smoking gun' of a Japanese man-god Emperor can be backed up with a whole smoking arsenal of (perhaps weaker) precedents. Isn't this pretty much what The Divine Right of Kings was all about? Sure, The State was a messier, less unified entity in the pre-industrialised world, making personality cults and general mass-dogma propagation much less achievable. But the monarch as God's representative was the figurehead to hang the state together. When he called muster to invade France, you had to be there crying God for England, Harry and St George...

Other Comments by _J_

27. Comment #36459 by Riley on May 1, 2007 at 7:41 am

 avatarThe author suggests that economic disparity and insecurity is a cause of religiosity in society.

Maybe, but in the United States at least, I think the cause and effect is reversed; religiosity is the cause, and economic disparity and insecurity in society the effect.

A fiercely guarded identifying belief here in the U.S. holds that government can not be relied upon to help people. Government is considered inherently a-moral and even an adversarial power, a necessary evil at best. The job to help people (it is believed) can not be left up to government, we must rely upon moral authorities such as the church and its self proclaimed speakers for God.

I don't think this point can be brought up often enough. The sooner this tragically flawed idea that morality requires a belief in God can be shattered, the sooner this viscous cycle of poverty and injustice can be broken.

Other Comments by Riley

28. Comment #36464 by Yorker on May 1, 2007 at 8:07 am

 avatar23. Comment #36416 by _J_

Apparently Gliese 581c is nice at this time of year.

To whose year do you refer? A year on Gliese 581c is only 13 days long!

Other Comments by Yorker

29. Comment #36473 by Riley on May 1, 2007 at 9:13 am

 avatarNice video briancoughlan, very worthwhile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmsis-motuY

Other Comments by Riley

30. Comment #36476 by Robert on May 1, 2007 at 9:36 am

 avatarIn George Orwell's Animal Farm religion is represented by the raven Moses, who preaches a fairytale heaven called Sugarcandy Mountain. After the animals start a revolution and drive out the farmer he disappears, but later when the pigs reestablish a tyranny even worse than the old human dictatorship Moses the raven returns and is granted a whiskey ration by the chief pig, Napoleon. Religion has always been very useful in diverting the slaves and pesuading them to put up with injustice. It's no coincidence that most American Christianity is utterly reactionary and Republican preaching private charity from the rich rather than a welfare state.

Other Comments by Robert

31. Comment #36483 by don malvado on May 1, 2007 at 10:06 am

17. Comment #36366 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 2:01 am
Scottishgeologist: I live near a mosque and see competely the opposite. The congregation seems to be 100% male. Can't understand why.....

The answer is very simple. Most mosques won't let women in, they have to pray at home.

Other Comments by don malvado

32. Comment #36484 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 10:07 am

I did not suggest that atheism always leads to immorality but there is no question that Hitler's did. If you doubt that follow this link:
http://web.csustan.edu/History/Faculty/Weikart/FromDarwintoHitler.htm

The notion that Hitler was a Christian is obscene. Baynes was wrong and there are plenty of sources to show that. I know many people who have no faith in God, some very close, lifelong friends. I do not doubt that they have strong morals.

"Eugenics is not atheism." I agree.

The book of Judges describes some of the most bestial and degrading human acts ever committed. Why? Because the Bible both describes and prescribes. The section posted is an horrific example of the depravity of some human beings.

"…if you examine the religious view that only true believers go to heaven you could argue that that is survival of the fittest." It's not a doctrine found anywhere in the Bible. The only way into heaven that the Bible teaches is by the grace of God and by faith in Jesus Christ. (Ephesians chapter two, verses 8-10). The only people that could ever go to hell are those that choose it. I cannot speak for other religions.

More women than men attend Christian churches in the west – agreed. More men than women attend mosques – I wouldn't argue against that but don't have statistics. David Murrow suggests that balanced language will attract equal numbers of men and women. The message at the heart of Christianity is 'love your neighbour as yourself'. Given human nature it's not surprising that many fall short. I do.

Other Comments by devolved

33. Comment #36491 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 1, 2007 at 10:23 am

 avatarThe notion that Hitler was a Christian is obscene. Baynes was wrong and there are plenty of sources to show that. I know many people who have no faith in God, some very close, lifelong friends. I do not doubt that they have strong morals.

You guys crack me up. Jefferson references providence and he's a born again Evangelical literalist, who wanted Jesus central to the US constitution. Hitler references providence and he's an atheist, and thats why he killed people.

You're either dumb or disingenous, and possibly both.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

34. Comment #36498 by devolved on May 1, 2007 at 10:40 am

33. Comment #36491 by briancoughlanworldcitizen

Did you bother to follow the link? Perhaps you might have tried reading it first and then you would not have posted your comment.

I am neither dumb or disingenous. I do like asking questions and engaging people in debate. From many years experience I've discovered that whenever I throw mud I always end up losing ground.

Repectfully yours, devolved.

Other Comments by devolved

35. Comment #36502 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 1, 2007 at 10:53 am

 avatarDid you bother to follow the link? Perhaps you might have tried reading it first and then you would not have posted your comment.

No. I didn't follow the link. Do you think you're the first moron thats trotted this theory out? That your comments are remotely original? That we haven't read about, and discussed this subject extensivley?

Hitler made constant appeals to God, providence and Christianity. He got the God fearing german people in harness to slaughter jews for reasons deeply rooted in religious divisions. Religion and totalitarianism are part of the same delusion, the one is NOT the antidote to the other. Reason is the solution to BOTH of them.

I get angry and impatient with self styled "subtle" little fuckers like you because you truly deserve a verbal arse kicking. You are a disingenous liar and a hypocrite, in perpetual violation of the precepts of your own doomsday cult as regards telling the truth.

Now fuck off, or come up with something original.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

36. Comment #36506 by don malvado on May 1, 2007 at 11:12 am

Is there any point to following that link?

It just seems to advertise a book rather than give a counter-argument

Other Comments by don malvado

37. Comment #36516 by scottishgeologist on May 1, 2007 at 11:54 am

 avatarDevolved said: "The only people that could ever go to hell are those that choose it"

Some would argue, Calvinists mainly, what Calvin himself referred to as the "horrible decree" of souble predestination. In other words those that are elect are saved, and those that are damned are damned anyway by Gods will. Salvation is of grace, ie the undeserved favour of God.

Actually, it was a countryman of mine, a long time ago, when Scotland was a Calvinist theocracy, who summed it up:

Holy Willies Prayer - Robert Burns:

O Thou, that in the heavens does dwell,
As it pleases best Thysel',
Sends aen to Heaven an' ten to Hell,
For Thy glory,
And no for onie guid or ill
They've done afore Thee!

Translated into English:

O You that in the Heavens does dwell,
Who, as it pleases best Yourself,
Sends one to Heaven and ten to Hell
All for Your glory,
And not for any good or ill
They have done before You!



I was brought up with this stuff, I studied it and It still screws my brain.

Even preachers like spurgeon couldnt resolve the Predestination / Freewill dichotomy. Spurgeon got round it by referring to them (quite eloquently) as twin tracks that although parallel , meet in eternity.

There has been a battle of theology for centuries between the Arminians who dont accept double predestination and the Calvinists who do.

Both refer to the Bible and can quote chapter and verse to back up their claims.

Of course the atheist claim is that both are wrong. Anihiliationism is the order of the day. Which, interestingly, a lot of churches are moving towards.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

38. Comment #36533 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 12:47 pm

31. Comment #36483 by don malvado on May 1, 2007 at 10:06 am

17. Comment #36366 by Peacebeuponme on May 1, 2007 at 2:01 am
Scottishgeologist: I live near a mosque and see competely the opposite. The congregation seems to be 100% male. Can't understand why.....

The answer is very simple. Most mosques won't let women in, they have to pray at home.

I was taking the piss. Living next to a mosque helps bring home the disgusting sexism of Islam.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

39. Comment #36536 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 1, 2007 at 12:56 pm

 avatarWeefree ... you can fuck off to. Not just because we are not going to buy your bullshit, but because that post was a criminal assault. If tedium was an olympic sport, you'd be reigning world champion.

Please have mercy!!! For the love of God!!!

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

40. Comment #36538 by Robert Maynard on May 1, 2007 at 1:02 pm

 avatardevolved said:
I am neither dumb or disingenous.
I don't think you'll be surprised to find I am in agreement with Brian.
You are disingenuous, and you are ignorant.

Without speculating as to the personal beliefs of a man even more eviler than Skeletor, the link (and book) is disingenuous if it mistakes Darwinian natural selection for social darwinism, a philosophy (not scientific theory) of pejorative artificial selection (which leads to, among other things, racial discrimination with an empty pretense of scientific support)

If some evolutionist thinkers in the early 20th century had trouble making an observational and philosophical distinction between the uncaring brutality of natural selection, and the distinct principle of anti-brutality found in basic social commune (eg. Hobbesian social-contract theory), then they were not thinking hard enough. It should be painfully obvious that a theory which describes how things work in nature (you know, the awful, high mortality situation which society was developed to improve upon) should not have any influence on how we design our communities.

On the other hand, and unlike evolutionary theory, nihilist philosophy specifically does promote ethical relativism, where right and wrong are personal, subjective concepts which should be entirely self-defined.

It is typically simplistic to say Nazism is the direct result of one OR the other. I think it's a pretty fair description that Nazi ethics were cooked with two cups of racism, a teaspoon of nihilist philosophy, and a dash of misapplied evolutionary theory, whose role doesn't extend beyond a violently distorted notion of "survival of the fittest".

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

41. Comment #36543 by BaronOchs on May 1, 2007 at 1:19 pm

 avatar
Yep - back to the good old capitalist ethic. Mammon is God.


I'm under the impression (may well be wrong I haven't checked it rigorously) that Jesus' misapprobation was greater regarding money (the rich young man, eye of a needle, don't store your treasure on earth where moth and rust decay etc) than sex. With the church (which only ever based its teachings loosely on those of its supposed founder) the exact opposite to say the least is the case. And there are not a few churches mainly in America I think where it is preached that god will make you rich etc.

I'm interested what you think about that weefree?

I hope I can say honestly that money isn't my god. Unless just desiring enough to get by in the society I live makes it so. Your comment reminds of an argument I've heard elsewhere that people who don't believe in God merely fill the gap with more inadequate and idolatrous substitutes. Of course I very much disagree. I would add that if there actually is a god atheism may well be less prone to idolatry than theism, which would really consist of subscribing to some inadequate and idolatrous notions of god, the true nature of which is beyond our grasp. Therefore atheism would still be a more suitable position.

So with what might a non-believer fill the "top spot" from which they've removed god? Life itself will do for me.

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42. Comment #36549 by phiwilli on May 1, 2007 at 1:55 pm

Paul and Zuckerman inadvertently echo Aristotle, who said (more or less)that leisure is a requirement for developing reliable knowledge. This was seconded by Bertrand Russell (see "In Praise of Idleness"). P & Z, when connecting comfortable middle-class social conditions with disbelief, leave out an intermediate step: comfortable middle-classers have more time for thinking somewhat clearly about issues raised by Dawkins et al, instead of worrying incessantly about where the next credit card payment - or next meal - will come from; so they are likely to figure out that religion is delusional.

Other Comments by phiwilli

43. Comment #36629 by Fedler on May 1, 2007 at 7:32 pm

 avatar"'devolved' - I wouldn't bother if I were you. Brian's response (35) is a shining example of the wit, wisdom and tolerance you will get here.

Meanwhile back to the actual article...."


David, why did you cut off devolved? I was looking forward to and hoping for some fresh theistic views, and then you charge in, tell devolved to not bother, and then start dissecting the article yourself. I, and indeed most people now on this forum, know how you feel. Why not let other people speak?

Other Comments by Fedler

44. Comment #36648 by John Phillips on May 1, 2007 at 11:03 pm

weefree said:

Indeed. People are not born atheists. They have to be indoctrinated that way.

Now now David, that is very disingenuous of you as you well know. For what people believe is largely a function of parental and societal influence. I.e. in muslim countries most grow up to be muslims, surprise surprise, in xtian countries the children generally grow up to be xtians, even bigger surprise.

The actual indoctrination is by the parents and society while the child is still in the trust adults without question phase. Now my parents were what would probably be described as agnostic but were quite happy for me to go to Sunday school and chapel with the rest of my friends and I suppose I loosely thought of myself as a xtian but it wasn't something I thought about at that time, being only a child. However, I actually became an atheist through thinking about it, ironically, initially in RE classes in a church of Wales school that actually taught us and encouraged us to think for ourselves. No indoctrination needed, only a rational examination and study of the so called facts of various religious beliefs. Further examination since, has only highlighted how irrational and ridiculous they all are.

And please, don't keep us waiting any longer, for we are all still waiting for you evidence for your god's existence. Come, don't disappoint us as you seem to have plenty to say about other matters, especially if you can find an opportunity to misrepresent or insult us in some way. In which case, I would have thought the ultimate insult to us atheists, from your point of view at least, would be to present unassailable evidence for you god's existence.

Other Comments by John Phillips

45. Comment #36674 by Luthien on May 2, 2007 at 1:49 am

 avatar"Soap and education are not as sudden as a massacre, but they are more deadly in the long run."

Mark Twain

Other Comments by Luthien

46. Comment #36781 by bouwe on May 2, 2007 at 9:49 am

Well, I would contend that people ARE born atheists. You don't come out of the womb with an automatic belief in an invisible friend by default. It takes indoctrination to do that.

In order to believe in anything, you need language to formulate that belief, and that, of course, needs to be taught. A child brought up by a pack of wolves isn't going to be able to talk, let alone formulate any belief in a god. That much is obvious.

Atheism, to repeat for the billionth time, simply means NOT having a belief in a god or gods.
The fact that we are born with no beliefs at all, demonstrates by logical necessity that we are therefore all born a-theists.

Hence, unless a baby pops it's head out of the womb praising Jesus, we can pretty much assume that the baby is an atheist, ie. doesn't have a belief in a god or gods...due to the fact that baby doesn't have any beliefs WHATSOEVER.

Then again, they DO speak in tongues.....lol
===================================

"challenging atheist myths"? More like "mythologising atheism" by misrepresenting what and how atheists think.

To say the following:

"Indeed. People are not born atheists. They have to be indoctrinated that way."

displays either a wilful ignorance or an inability to understand what atheism is. A theist almost invariably falls for the same old fallacy: that of interpreting atheism as a mirror image of their own beliefs. Coming from a world of belief, they, rather absurdly, see our non-belief as a form of "belief". They can't bear the onus of proof (because they have no proof!) and therefore, in a depressingly predictable pattern, try to turn logic on its head and require one to "prove that god DOESN'T exist" or some such nonsense.

In this case, weefree appears to view atheism as some sort of ideology that requires indoctrination. He sees atheism as an "idea" that one "believes" when it is in fact not an idea of any sort, but simply the lack of a belief in an idea, namely "god".

It is as though he has this massive blind spot whenever he sees "atheism" in a dictionary, and he superimposes his own fantasy-world definition (whatever that is exactly). This act of mental self-sabotage enables him to turn logic upside down in order to stay in his faith-fuelled fantasy world of supernatural beliefs. You see, he can turn non-belief into a "belief" simply by speaking it into being, much like his Supreme Being speaks everything into being. From there, our quite reasonable lack-of-a-belief-in-space-fairies -without-evidence becomes an "idea" and an "ideology" that we are trying to "indoctrinate".

The basic fact is that even weefree and devolved were born atheists - in the strict sense of the word - much to their horror.

Other Comments by bouwe

47. Comment #36784 by Fedler on May 2, 2007 at 9:52 am

 avatar"I must be missing something (a screw?). How am I preventing other people speaking? And if the criteria is that you must only post if people don't know how you feel then I would suggest that the whole MB would soon be closed down."

Like you always tell me, David, read it in context. Of course I was speaking about your cutting off devolved.

Misunderstanding. I was just warning devolved that she/he were about to get the usual insults and lack of intelligent responses to their reasonable and sane posts.

SARCASM ALERT: Thanks for insulting the intelligence of everyone on this site in one stroke, David. We appreciate it.

Other Comments by Fedler

48. Comment #36787 by Robert Maynard on May 2, 2007 at 10:06 am

 avatarweefree asked:
And in atheist countries the people grow up to be atheists?
Sweden.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

49. Comment #36790 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 2, 2007 at 10:19 am

 avatarI just wonder when this site decides that something is offensive and removes it?

I've no idea, but I certainly find almost everything that you post an offence to intelligence, good taste and most of all style. Yet they still let you post.

Take this ghastly tome you've most recently inflicted on us. A string of the familiar inept rebuttals with the original comments so poorly differentiated from your kack, that sometimes the only way to tell you've stopped dribbling is when the writing improves.

For God's sake, have a heart and use some fucking italics, or maybe some bolding. Hey, freak out and use both!!!

One final thing you cheeky little religious cunt, it's in poor taste, and downright ungentlemanly to point out another fellows typos and spelling errors. It's simply dreadful online etiquette. Particularly when your own "work" is far from perfect.

For example, is that really how you spell "obcession" ... ? See that it doesn't happen again:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

50. Comment #36791 by epeeist on May 2, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatarweefree asked

Really. Actually democracy, education and prosperity have largely come within nations which had a Christian tradition. Please feel free to name one which did not.


Err, Greece in the time of Pericles? Iceland, which had a parliament before it was converted?

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