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Friday, May 4, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Science and fiction

by James Randerson, Guardian Unlimited

Thanks to Peacebeuponme for the link.

Reposted from:
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/james_randerson/2007/05/cameron_confused_on_creationis.html

James Randerson

David Cameron's ambiguity about creationism provides yet another example of politicians taking the benefits of science without defending its principles.

David Cameron found himself in very hot water this week with leading scientists following comments he made on Friday hinting that schools could be given more flexibility to teach creationism in science lessons. The comments themselves were meant to be a clarification of Tory policy (is there such a thing?) in the face of an embarrassing gaff by the Conservative Welsh assembly candidate for Clwyd West, Darren Millar. He reportedly told a hustings in Ruthin that homosexuality was a sin - comments he later denied. But there was more on creationism. A party spokesperson later clarified his contribution thus:

"Darren said that teachers in faith schools should be given flexibility to include the teaching of creationism in science lessons alongside Darwinism."

That is the sort of stuff that makes most scientists' blood boil, but Mr Cameron did not appear to appreciate that fully. When asked about the issue he said on Friday: "Personally I don't support the teaching of creationism," but he added, "I'm a great believer that we need to trust schools and governors of schools to get these things right and I think that's the right approach." He said he advocated a "more devolved system" for deciding what schools were allowed to teach.

The reaction from scientists has been predictably brutal. Steve Jones, the evolutionary biologist at University College London and distinguished popular science author said:

"They need to devolve some management to schools. I think most people would agree with that. But you can't devolve the truth. Something is either true or it's not and creationism is not.

"If somebody demanded the right to teach in mathematics lessons that 2 and 2 are 5 on faith grounds they would be laughed out of court ... by having this taught in science lessons they are damaging science it's as simple as that."


The developmental biologist Lewis Wolpert, also at UCL said:

"I am shocked that Cameron agrees that creationism can be taught in science lessons. Creationism is not science and is purely religious faith. There is zero evidence for it. We must oppose this. Next the students will be taught that the world was created in six days."

In the face of this barrage, Mr Cameron's office "clarified" again. Would the Tories allow faith schools to teach creationism in science lessons? "No, I don't think we would. Basically, we think creationism has got its place as part of a religious curriculum, but not as part of a science curriculum."

Reassuring perhaps, but Cameron's ambiguity is yet more evidence of politicians wanting to take the benefits of science without defending its principles. Despite talk in November of his Damascene conversion to science, Tony Blair and his government have been guilty of using science when it suits them, but abandoning it when it doesn't. One extraordinary decision was the move by the government agency that licenses new medicines to allow homeopathic remedies to be licensed without clinical trial data - thus putting magic water on a par with traditional evidence-based medicine.

And in November, the parliamentary science and technology committee produced a highly critical report on government use of science in policy-making. It said there was too much cherry-picking of data to validate policy rather than an honest discussion of the evidence. It called for a "re-engineering" of the government's approach to science.

Mr Blair also displayed the same unconcerned attitude to the threat to science posed by teaching creationism. In an interview with New Scientist magazine in November he said he thought the threat was "hugely exaggerated". He added, "If I notice creationism becoming the mainstream of the education system in this country then that's the time to start worrying." Most scientists would rightly be horrified if the debate reached that stage before the prime minister decided to take notice.

If Mr Cameron and the next occupant of No 10 Downing Street want to demonstrate that they really understand this issue they must make clear their unequivocal opposition to any religious interference in the school science curriculum. They should also take steps to restrict, rather than increase, the flexibility that religious schools have over the curriculum they teach. The benefits from science will only come in future if politicians defend it now. That means saying what is science and what is not.

Comments 1 - 20 of 20 |

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1. Comment #37323 by Philip1978 on May 4, 2007 at 4:55 am

 avatarI think the only reason I vote Tory is because I find Boris Johnson Interesting, reading this crap makes me wonder if is there an Antidisestablishmentarianism party I could vote for?

Other Comments by Philip1978

2. Comment #37325 by beebhack on May 4, 2007 at 5:12 am

Cameron supports faith schools too, just like the current lot (they say 'parents should have a choice' but I suspect that's a smokescreen; Blair and Cameron are both faith-heads, and Gordon Brown is a Son of the Kirk)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6380629.stm

The irritating thing is that faith schools tend to get, on balance, decent results, dangnabit.

It's perplexing that Central Office clearly didn't realise what a profound problem creationism in science lessons is -- hence the need for a double-dose of 'clarification'. It's just not on politicians' radar in the UK, with one or two honourable exceptions.

Can I suggest that everyone here hammers the issue on the doorstep when they're next canvassed, and perhaps raises the issue at hustings?

Other Comments by beebhack

3. Comment #37327 by epeeist on May 4, 2007 at 5:21 am

 avatarDon't forget to sign the petition - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/NoCreSciEd

Other Comments by epeeist

4. Comment #37328 by Eureka Step on May 4, 2007 at 5:24 am

 avatarI can only echo Steve Jones' sentiments. If anything should be the same nationwide it should be education.

And why should creationism only be a concern if it threatens to become mainstream?!?!

Mr. Cameron and Mr. Blair you look like fools on this matter. This article has its finger on the pulse, politicians will only use science when it suits them.

Other Comments by Eureka Step

5. Comment #37330 by Titchfield on May 4, 2007 at 5:31 am

Bizarrely it's hard to find any comment on the issue of religion on the major parties websites. That's why I started the following post on the David Cameron website (as if it gets enough votes he will answer it in a couple of weeks on his blog):

http://www.webcameron.org.uk/blogs/3716-Should-we-make-separation-of-church-and-state-a-key-part-of-parliamentary-reform

In particular my post was about the separation of church and state which, of course, covers state endorsement of dubious teaching practices such as creationism.

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6. Comment #37331 by stuartM02 on May 4, 2007 at 5:34 am

It is worring the combination of faith schools and develoving power and control to schools (a bit of a buzz concept). Develoving control and automomy to allow teachers to get on with their jobs is comendable in most cases - but with the prevelence of faith schools this cannot be wise!

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7. Comment #37332 by BaronOchs on May 4, 2007 at 5:42 am

 avatar
"If I notice creationism becoming the mainstream of the education system in this country then that's the time to start worrying." Most scientists would rightly be horrified if the debate reached that stage before the prime minister decided to take notice.


Yes, don't start worrying till the barbarians are at the gate, great idea.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

8. Comment #37334 by FraserH on May 4, 2007 at 5:47 am

This sort of political misstatement is understandable (that it occurs, from a political point of view) in the US as there is a big voting bloc to appeal to who hate the idea of evolution. Surely the crazies don't have such a large community over here for a centre-right for this to be a vote-winning tactic? I probably wouldn't vote Tory anyway, this just it makes it even less likely (and I was swithering).

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9. Comment #37340 by bamboospitfire on May 4, 2007 at 6:10 am

 avatarTo my mind there are more important issues to consider than the teaching of creationism when deciding whether or for whom one should vote, but this remains a problem which needs to be stamped out quickly nevertheless. Creationism is not science because there is no evidence for it. End of story.

I'm happy for creationism to be taught in religious studies lessons on a level with other current religious beliefs and ancient religions. However, I look forward to the day when all religion is taught in schools by people who can provide a truly unbiased view of all religions (presumably atheists or agnostics), even going so far as to seek to explain its prevalence through a study of Dawkins memetics and perhaps even combine this with lessons in morality and philosophy. Such an approach would probably be a lot more interesting than the usual method of teaching what each religion is about in isolation. If people really wish to be taught a religion as the truth, they should go to their local Church, Mosque or Synangogue for example. Schools are obviously not the place for such indoctrination.

It also troubles me greatly that children are exposed to religious studies teachers of the kind to which I was subjected at school. The man denied the veracity of the Apollo moon landings because (naturally) one has to go through heaven to get to the moon... My classmates and I used to have serious arguments with him about the existence of God, although he did his cause no favours by being so intractable, since that only served to stir up rebellion in his classes. I am pleased to confirm that he no longer teaches at my old school. The guy was a fundamentalist maniac. However, in different circumstances he could have caused significant damage. Imagine that approach in a school full of children already softened up by their parents' religiosity.

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10. Comment #37345 by FraserH on May 4, 2007 at 6:24 am

Bamboo Spitfire,
yes, there are. This is just one more mark against, and it is as much the "gain at any cost" politics as the slight implication of an anti-science stance of the original statement by Cameron. That said, Blair has said worse and it does sadden me the distrust of scientists that is engendered by (all) politicians and the press, especially the politicisation of scientific stances (e.g. fishery quotas, renewables, biodiesels etc). Good example - the furore around GM TRIALS, not growing for food, just trials. Prince Charles for example has come out against it, but how do we know whether GM crops are safe or viable until they have been trialed? FOE at least had a specific complaint - an adequate safety assessment had not been conducted (in their view) - but GM seems to be a taboo term for, as yet, no solid reasons.

Other Comments by FraserH

11. Comment #37361 by bluehillside on May 4, 2007 at 7:31 am

Here's an idea: why don't we pass a law that requires all schools to categorise the science subjects they teach as "Evidence-based" and the mumbo-jumbo (religion, creationism, fairies at the bottom of the garden etc) as "Guesswork"?

Isn't it depressing to live in a country where, after three hundered years of enlightened thinking, we have Government-funded schools filling pupils' heads with medieval voodooism...

Other Comments by bluehillside

12. Comment #37369 by petermun on May 4, 2007 at 8:32 am

David Cameron is an airhead with few, if any, original views. His wont is to run mindlessly with the herd - the members of which, in turn, are all too willing to take this faith-school rubbish on board. In due time they will elect the idiot and his fellow ne'er-do-wells as the government and faith schools will get yet another boost. Oh dear.

Other Comments by petermun

13. Comment #37387 by scottishgeologist on May 4, 2007 at 11:02 am

 avatarOther parties are nt much better. Take the SNP, now the biggest party in the Scottish Parliament. Bashir Ahmad, elected in Glasgow has as one of his priorities the setting up of a school for Muslim children. Great.

And there was the controversial financial donation to the SNP from Brian Souter of Stagecoach, born again Pentecostal and homophobe (any one remember the Section 28 fracas?)

Now that the SNP is top dog (although a no-overall-majority one) I wonder what their policy on creationism is. Most nationalists I know are fairly secular. Those that arent are nominalist "church goers" at worst. Cant think of any other real faith heads among Nats except maybe the two mentioned above.

Oh yes, our old friend David Robertson (AKA weefree) supports the nationalists......

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

14. Comment #37392 by scooternyc on May 4, 2007 at 11:20 am

 avatarI don't remember which intellectual said it recently but I hear it every time I read something like this artilce;


we are making our children stupid in science for which they will be unable to progress in the world and evolve new medicines, new technology, new ideas, more efficient ways of living in our society through conservation, etc. if we keep trying to stop proven scientific methods of research and continue to push this fairytale of some guy, born of a virgin, who floated to the sky after having died 3 days earlier.

I find it interesting that Bill O'Reilly and some of his ilk dislike the idea of secular progressives - given his narrow definition of the terminology. Yet, it is secular progressives that have helped move this world to a place where Mr. O and his gang are able to live freely, speak out, and not have their individual rights to freedom acquiesced by a king.

Depsite Mr. O's contentions, our country was founded by those who believed in the Rule of Law, not the rule of god. Perhaps some did believe in god, they just didn't think our country's governing documents should reflect that belief.

Other Comments by scooternyc

15. Comment #37396 by Yorker on May 4, 2007 at 11:25 am

Hopefully this will cost Cameron some votes, I certainly won't vote for him, but then I never would have anyway.

At a time when nations need to be abolished, not established, I'm disappointed in the Scottish results. This small, but influential nation that has given the world so much, seems to have lost it's way.

Other Comments by Yorker

16. Comment #37400 by Seti on May 4, 2007 at 11:37 am

 avatarFor the want of somewhere better to introduce this subject - and it does link to the issue of faith schools - does anyone have thoughts about faith-based social care? I suspect that it is going to be the next big battle, and given the recent attitude of the established churches to the sexual equality bill I think we can see some of the concerns which may lie ahead.

Other Comments by Seti

17. Comment #37406 by Audley Strange on May 4, 2007 at 11:48 am

 avatarSo much for "education education education". This sickens me, but then very little these power-whores do these days does not.

Other Comments by Audley Strange

18. Comment #37480 by Ivan The Not So Bad on May 4, 2007 at 3:15 pm

 avatarQuite so Audley.

It has become "indoctrination, indoctrination, indoctrination".

Other Comments by Ivan The Not So Bad

19. Comment #37570 by devolved on May 5, 2007 at 2:00 am

I'm pleased if David Cameron is advocating the end to the monopoly of faith based evolutionary teaching dominating the science curricula. The Bible describes faith as, "…being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see."

This description exactly fits evolution for two reasons. First because believers hope that science will ultimately provide proof to support what they believe, namely that "all the living forms in the world have arisen from a single source which itself came from an inorganic form". Of course it's impossible to do science in the past so that hope cannot be fulfilled.

Second because the evolutionary process cannot be seen to be at work in operational science (science that uses observable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable experimentation). The main scientific objection to the General Theory of Evolution is not that changes occur through time, and neither is it about the size of the change. The key issue is the type of change required — to change microbes into men requires changes that increase the genetic information content, from over half a million DNA 'letters' of even the 'simplest' self-reproducing organism to three billion 'letters' (stored in each human cell nucleus).

By contrast Natural selection is really a very straight-forward, commonsense insight. An organism may possess some inheritable trait or character which, in a given environment, gives that organism a greater chance of passing on all of its genes to the next generation (compared with those of its fellows which don't have it). Over succeeding generations that trait or character has a good chance of becoming more widespread in that population.

What's the difference between Evolution and Natural Selection? ""Natural selection involves merely the shuffling, rearrangement and degeneration of existing genetic information, whereas (over time) evolution requires encyclopaedic quantities of new information to be produced by unintelligent, natural processes—information coding for new types of organs, limbs, physiologies, etc."

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20. Comment #37574 by epeeist on May 5, 2007 at 3:23 am

 avatarComment #37570 by devolved

[Snip]

Devolved - you were here a few days ago making exactly the same spurious points. Your mistakes were pointed out to you then.

Repeating yourself over again doesn't make it any more true than it was the first time. All it does is make you look dogmatic and foolish.

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