1. Comment #37608 by Yorker on May 5, 2007 at 11:07 am

I saw the video. The usual horrific, inhuman, despicable behaviour by creatures from a prehistoric time unfortunately still living today.

Other Comments by Yorker

2. Comment #37609 by Riley on May 5, 2007 at 11:09 am

I'm sobbing...
.. . . . w - h - a - t -- a - r - e -- p - e - o - p - l - e -- t - h - i - n - k - i - n - g . . . .

Other Comments by Riley

3. Comment #37610 by Yorker on May 5, 2007 at 11:10 am

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the murderers get some kind of sexual thrill from these acts, in the video, the garments from the lower half of the girl's body had been removed.

Other Comments by Yorker

4. Comment #37611 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 5, 2007 at 11:10 am

2. Comment #37609 by Riley on May 5, 2007 at 11:09 am

I'm sobbing...
.. . . . w h a t a r e p e o p l e t h i n k i n g . . .

I know, I really know. It makes ME want to kill someone. These people are utterly insane, if this is not delusion ... what is?

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

5. Comment #37612 by Absinthius on May 5, 2007 at 11:16 am

This is utter madness! I cant even begin to start understanding what these people must be thinking.. if at all!

Other Comments by Absinthius

6. Comment #37615 by wolf1168 on May 5, 2007 at 11:27 am

This act and acts like them are DISGUSTING.

Other Comments by wolf1168

7. Comment #37616 by Spiral on May 5, 2007 at 11:28 am

I don't know if I should watch this or not. It makes me angry just thinking of it.

I think Sam Harris puts it as it is:
"the tendency of religion to decouple the concept of morality from issues of actual human suffering"
or something like that...



Other Comments by Spiral

8. Comment #37618 by wolf1168 on May 5, 2007 at 11:28 am

American troops are dying to defend THIS?

Other Comments by wolf1168

9. Comment #37619 by Absinthius on May 5, 2007 at 11:31 am

just saw a bit of the movie, couldnt watch the rest... These people are utterly and totally INSANE! If religion leads to this, how can anyone not see the wrong?

Other Comments by Absinthius

10. Comment #37629 by pewkatchoo on May 5, 2007 at 11:53 am

Sorry weefree, but you are absolutely wrong. Antagonistic religious belief is truly what this is all about! We are living in cloud cuckoo land if we think this is just about a bunch of murderous savages. The men concerned will have sat around a table and discussed the case clinically and (in their eyes) objectively and have come to their decision (with regret of course). Then they would have gone out and done the deed. All in the name of bringing shame to their religious beliefs.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

11. Comment #37631 by Bonzai on May 5, 2007 at 11:55 am

This is disgusting beyond words. But I don't think religion is the motivating factor here. Tribalism is. In the ME it is difficult to disentangle religion from tribalistic loyality. Religion observation is a mark of tribal or clandish identity. You'll probably get a better understanding of this by reading Romeo and Juliet than The End of Faith

Other Comments by Bonzai

12. Comment #37636 by Fishpeddler on May 5, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Weefree's post just disappeared. I was about to advise him that if he wants to truly distinguish Christianity from the people who commit these kind of acts, a good start would be to remove endorsement of these very acts from the bible. Christian morality will always be deeply suspect as long as it cannot bring itself to improve or excise the most grossly immoral parts of its own holy book.

Other Comments by Fishpeddler

13. Comment #37640 by Jack Rawlinson on May 5, 2007 at 12:09 pm

I just watched the whole shameful thing on YouTube. Disgusting beyond words. A bunch of sadistic subhumans bludgeoning this poor girl to death while loads of the vile savages stood around recording it on their cellphones.

And make no mistake: those who try to say this is just all-too-human mob savagery are being disingenuous by trying to take religion out of the equation. It was their foul religious beliefs that allowed them to declare this girl was immoral, so that they could then "dignify" their savagery with that excuse.

And still we'll hear the religious and the weak atheists saying "Why do you care? Why can't you live and let live? Why can't you let people alone with their beliefs?"

This is why we care, idiots.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

14. Comment #37641 by v4ri4bl3 on May 5, 2007 at 12:12 pm

What is curious to me is how much Hate it would take to inspire such actions? I mean, we know that these people are not all idiots. Some probably have a decent education, are literate etc. The attacks were coordinated. But it would seem that in order to do such a thing one must rile up so much Hate inside as to lose all compassion for people such as this innocent young girl.

If this isn't proof that religious faith is a problem I don't know what is. There is no arguing about the motivations here. How long will it take until we can agree that there is nothing virtuous about the beliefs which inspire this magnitude of disgusting hate.

Other Comments by v4ri4bl3

15. Comment #37648 by the great teapot on May 5, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Do we really need pictures.
This kind of voyeurism is already too common on the internet.
That is the last moment of a girl who clearly had more sense than the fools around her.
Don't add it to the victorian freak show.

Other Comments by the great teapot

16. Comment #37649 by Duff on May 5, 2007 at 12:22 pm

The most astounding thing about these kinds of honor killings is that they are usually done by the male members of the family. Thats her brothers and uncles, folks. It is tribalism only to the extent that religion is also only tribalism.
This kind of barbarity doesn't come about from simple in and out group competition, it arises because these simplistic people are obeying their holy scriptures.

Other Comments by Duff

17. Comment #37652 by HappyPrimate on May 5, 2007 at 12:25 pm

While I cannot bring myself to watch this inhumane act I can imagine the scene well enough. It seems that the violence against women does not rate very high on the DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS scale in the world. So very sad. Many tears. And don't think the Xian fundies think this is wrong.

I must echo JackR
And still we'll hear the religious and the weak atheists saying "Why do you care? Why can't you live and let live? Why can't you let people alone with their beliefs?"

This is why we care, idiots.

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

18. Comment #37665 by Bonzai on May 5, 2007 at 12:37 pm

Religion has a lot to account for, but it is naive to seek single cause for complex situation. Tribalistic vendatta and honour killing are not particularly tied to religion. They still do it even if imams speak out explictly against it as in Europe. In the present case the perpetrators are Christians if I am not mistaken. I am not aware of any christian church condoning such practice.

About 10 years ago in Canada a Greek guy hired a hitman to kill his daughter's boyfriend because he was black. Well it would be a stretch to trace that to the bible even though he might have been a Greek Orthodox. The bible never said "Thou shalt not date black guys"

The "weak atheist" bit is just a slur. Yes, you don't care what others belief AS LONG AS THEY DON'T COERCE OTHERS WITH THEIR BELIEFS. What do the "strong atheists" advocate? Thought police? Re education camps? I do agree with Dawkins that religion should be critiqued like other ideas and people shouldn't pussy around it WHEN IT IS WARRENTED. But it is quite a different matter in thinking that religion is the single source of all evil and being blind to other, more immediate explanations.

Other Comments by Bonzai

19. Comment #37668 by Fanusi Khiyal on May 5, 2007 at 12:42 pm

And _this_ is exactly, in fact the only, reason that I am a Loud Atheist. Individual skirmishes over Gay Marriage or Abortion can be dealt with on a piece-by-piece level.

This kind of madness can't. It requires head on attack.

I can understand that there's evil in the world. I can understand that there is savagery and barbarism. What I _can't_ understand is why the right thinking people of the world don't do everything in their power to wipe Islam from existence?

N.B.: Happy Primate?

>>And don't think the Xian fundies think this is wrong.<<

You are absolutely, one-hundred-and-ten percent wrong about that. I know good and decent Christians. I think that they are _wrong_ in their beliefs, that they are _incorrect_, but none of them are anything like this level of evil. Not even the fundies. THe kind of Christianity capable of this was destroyed by the Enlightenment.

And you do yourself no favours by pretending otherwise. Alot of Christians are Christians because they want an absolute moral standpoint to condemn this kind of evil, understand? And they don't see it from the multiculturalist, postmodernist cowards that _are seen as_ the face of atheism. Look at any debate between Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins and the religious right and they always, _always_ come back to this.

Oh yeah, where the hell have the feminists been these last thirty years?

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

20. Comment #37672 by FXR on May 5, 2007 at 12:49 pm

The denigration of women is directly attributable to religion.
What happened to this unfortunate young girl is the same thing that Christianity did in a less secular age. The superiority of men over women is a theme of the bible.

Other Comments by FXR

21. Comment #37679 by Jack Rawlinson on May 5, 2007 at 12:57 pm

Bonzai: I didn't say that religion is the sole factor behind this. I said religion shouldn't be taken out of the equation. There's an unhealthy measure of cultural patriarchal misogyny involved too, but again, in almost every case where "honour" killings take place, the people involved use their religious beliefs as at least partial justification for their despicable actions. Religion is used to justify wickedness time and time again - witness the Catholic church's stance on contraception, gays and on and on. This is just a particularly extreme instance of it.

I'm going to resist the urge to go after your silly straw men about what strong atheists advocate with regard to religion. You'd know very well what we advocate if you spend any time reading the contributions on this site. And if you don't, I suggest you go do so. I don't have the patience to spell it out right now, I'm afraid.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

22. Comment #37680 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 12:58 pm

I can't process this at all. Just not the sort of thing that can be thought about calmly.

The Old Testament response - as in the case of the raped and subsequently dismembered concubine - would be to slaughter all the men of Iraq, so as to be sure you got 'em all. Which, right at this second, I could vote for.

Which is exactly why we don't rely on religions that appeal to our bloodlust for our laws anymore.

If only everybody would agree on that.

I don't know what sort rationalisation has to go on in a person's head for them to be able to do this and then go home to their family, still thinking of themselves as a righteous and moral person. Makes me despair.

Other Comments by _J_

23. Comment #37683 by Fanusi Khiyal on May 5, 2007 at 1:04 pm

FXR - pay. attention.

The comment was that, supposedly, modern Christian fundamentalist would approve. They. would. not. and. do. not.

Because, as I _said_, the Enlightenment broke the spine of Christianity. It now needs to break the spine of Islam, and do so doubly quickly.

_J_ I can only agree. At this moment I just want to throw those Muslim savages into the meatgrinder of the civil war they've constructed. The hell with them; let the Dar al-Islam rip itself apart.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

24. Comment #37685 by chauvinj on May 5, 2007 at 1:10 pm

What on earth is wrong with these people?? I just watched the entire video and I still can't believe what I saw.

If anyone is interested, here's the link to the murder: http://youtube.com/watch?v=OE4PuTs4jUs

The video is not for those with weak stomach's...

Cui bono???

Other Comments by chauvinj

25. Comment #37687 by Logicel on May 5, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Like others, I chose not to watch the video. As Amnesty International stated, these criminals need to be caught, tried, and punished.

To take a young woman's life and in such a brutal, sustained manner of stoning, must require a complete lack of awareness/consciousness in order to complete this atrocity on your own kin.

Think of the terror that must be felt by the close-by inhabitants to ensure their continuing compliance in the blind faith of tribal/religious beliefs. Think of the blood that will beget more blood which is the way of warlike, primitive, patriarchal, tribal cultures made even more divisive by the practice of religious superstitions. The viciousness of this circle of depraved, non-thinking acts will be very challenging to break, but it will be broken.

Other Comments by Logicel

26. Comment #37688 by Jack Rawlinson on May 5, 2007 at 1:16 pm

Again, for anyone tempted to try to take the religious aspect out of the equation, here's Wikipedia, under the "Religious Practices" section of their entry on Yazidism. The italics are mine:

"Purity and Taboos

The Yazidis' concern with religious purity, and their reluctance to mix elements perceived to be incompatible, is shown not only in their caste system, but also in various taboos affecting everyday life. Some of these, such as those on exogamy or on insulting or offending men of religion, are widely respected. Others, such as the prohibition of eating lettuce or wearing the color blue, are often ignored when men of religion are not present. Others still are less widely known and may be localized. The purity of the four elements, Earth, Air, Fire, and Water, is protected by a number of taboos–against spitting on earth, water, or fire, for instance. Spitting on the ground, or pouring hot water on the ground, is discouraged by some Yezidi, because they believe that spirits or souls that may be present would be harmed or offended by such actions, if they happen to be hit by the discarded liquid. These may also reflect ancient Iranian preoccupations, as apparently do the taboos concerning bodily refuse, hair, and menstrual blood. Too much contact with non-Yazidis is also polluting. In the past Yazidis avoided military service which would have led them to live among Muslims, and were forbidden to share such items as cups or razors with outsiders."

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

27. Comment #37698 by HappyPrimate on May 5, 2007 at 1:29 pm

Response To Fanusi K
You are deceived by your Xian Fundie friends if you believe they condem this sort of thing. They condem Islamics doing it, but in their hearts if they are truly fundamentalists, they believe the literal truth of their bible and that book condons stoning women. They may tell you that the New Testament says to forgive the sinner and cast not the first stone unless you are sinless yourself, but if they were in a crowd with other fundies and there was condemnation of someone for a stoning offence, and they didn't think the police would catch them, they'd do it. If you think differently - then you can have your delusion. I live where the KKK is alive and well. I have seen what these people are capable of.

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

28. Comment #37712 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 5, 2007 at 2:05 pm

Horrible, sick fucking bastards. I hate them.

There's no way I'm watching the video! No way.

Religion = mental illness. Fuckin. End. Of.

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

29. Comment #37714 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 2:11 pm

23. Comment #37683 by Fanusi Khiyal, and 25. Comment #37687 by Logicel

I've watched the video now. I really, viscerally, didn't want to, but I had this feeling that I *had* to, as it had happened whether I chose to face it or not.

Fanusi, I share your gut response, but I feel as Logicel said that the vicious circle can and will be broken. The ray of hope is that Iraq isn't only full of morally vacant men: it's also home to the religion-blind young lovers that they victimise, and to the other men that offer them shelter. And, whilst a few years ago, the only witnesses to this crime would have been the criminals themselves, today it finds an audience of millions who can recognise it for the humanity-defying abomination it is.

We progress by recognising and facing up to the what is wrong. The crime is old but recognition on this scale is new. In face of it all, that, at least, is encouraging.

On a different note, also to Fanusi: yes, the vast majority of Christian fundamentalists would find this as shocking as you or I. And yet it is still possible to be beaten to death in America (and probably Britain) for 'having the wrong boyfriend' - if a fundamentalist Christian reckons you ought to have a *girlfriend*. It is possible not only to have this happen to you, but then to have your funeral picketed by more FundaMentalists who have shown up to assure your family that God Hated you for being a Fag.

Beating to death is beating to death, in Iraq or in the West, and religiously motivated murder is exactly that, irrespective of how cuddly the religion is 'most of the time'.

Anything that tells people that there's something more important than the lives of the people around them is, essentially, evil. Even if the vast majority of adherents would balk at events like the murder depicted here, such faiths nevertheless provide a 'moral' framework to rationalise such killings.

They *have* to go.

Other Comments by _J_

30. Comment #37715 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 2:13 pm

Hey, Happy Primate,

Notwithstanding what I've just written above, at least Jesus gave us 'Let he who is without sin throw the first stone.'

Whilst selective interpretation is a necessary skill for the consistent FundaMentalist, you have to admit that the New Testament pulls off some really laudable moral coups.

Other Comments by _J_

31. Comment #37717 by Pieter on May 5, 2007 at 2:20 pm

Hey if anyone's interested i'm pretty sure this story was already in the news a week ago. It was mentioned becasue sunnis had already taken revenge on the Yezidi when they heard about the stoning. Apparently a bus full of Yezidi and christians in iraq was stopped by gunmen, the christians were let go, and about 20 Yezidi were then gunned down on the bus. Just when you think it can't get any worse....

Other Comments by Pieter

32. Comment #37720 by Beej on May 5, 2007 at 2:22 pm

Oh, I feel sick reading this. Utter scum.

Other Comments by Beej

33. Comment #37722 by Harlon57 on May 5, 2007 at 2:23 pm

The middle east is overflowing with people who have these strongly held beliefs.

Our fundamentalist types are amateurs in comparison.

We need to develop an alternate source of energy so that we can stop funding these backward people.

Other Comments by Harlon57

34. Comment #37726 by HappyPrimate on May 5, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Response to _J_
I do think that passage might have saved a couple of lives but there are still too many who think they are righteous enough to cast that stone.
Fairly recently I decided to put a Darwin fish (with legs) on the back of my car. As I placed it there, my hand began to shake and I realized that I was afraid - afraid of having my car damaged, afraid of having insults hurled at me or worse. I did it anyway and so far (3 months) it has only been ripped from my car once. Since it did not break, I glued it back on. Although I do not fear any god, I do fear those who believe they are entitled to do what they believe is his bidding. I am surrounded by them and it can be frightening. I also recently revealed to several friends I lunched with quite often that I was an atheist. I didn't bring it up but was asked a question regarding religion. I saw utter horror in their faces. I am no longer welcome to lunch with them. So I lunch alone now. I wish I could flee to a place of sanity and I already live in the U.S.

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

35. Comment #37727 by AnatheistinNigeria on May 5, 2007 at 2:36 pm

Honor killings go on all the time, even in Europe. And the worse thing is; These men and the women that support them actually win every time they get away with this kind of murder. Because women will be frightened and rightfuly so, and will feel themselves forced to abide by the morality of their group.

It is terrorism against women of the worse kind.

Other Comments by AnatheistinNigeria

36. Comment #37739 by Robert Maynard on May 5, 2007 at 3:02 pm

I don't want to have anything to do with this kind of spectacle.
Iraq is a deep pit of uninterrupted suffering; what we dare to post and watch on the Internet is just what the dim light from our torches reveals when we gather the courage to peer into the abyss. Don't even try to picture what a YouTube video of the reported revenge killings would look like, with 23 innocent men forced off a bus and shot dead by the side of the road.

America has technically brought Iraq freedom. Complete, lawless freedom, to follow their barbaric ideologies all the way to their predictable, sad and bloody conclusions. This whole situation is an embarrassment to the global community.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

37. Comment #37742 by knox on May 5, 2007 at 3:09 pm

Fishpeddlar et al,

I am very sorry but apparently I was banned again for writing the following. It really does appear to me from this website that fundamentalist atheists are incapable of discussing with, or allowing anyone who is not of their opinion, to have an opinion. I cannot see how what I wrote below is a troll. It is a serious point that there is an enormous danger in making the simplistic and fundamentalist point that it was religious people who did this - de facto all religious people are murderous nutters or at least supporters of. That is not an extreme statement - witness Stuart's post "Religion = mental illness. Fuckin. End. Of."

If you are only going to allow posts that agree with your fundamental beliefs then I am afraid that you are proving my jibe that you are the secular equivalent of fundamentalists. For the benefit of those who wonder what I am talking about - my original post is below.

"The whole thing is disgusting and yet another example of how human beings can use religion to reinforce tribalism and all manners of evil behaviour.

However one wonders why this item was placed on this site. I suspect that it was because of the rather simplistic notion that this is something motivated by religion and since this is an anti-religous site, it is put here to demonstrate how all religions are the same and have the same effect. Such simplistic ad hominem attacks ironically do nothing to help with our greatest need - overcoming ignorance. In fact it just reinforces the (non) faith of the (un) believers here and the general sense of superiority that many of you feel. Look how evil, wicked, stupid etc these religious people are and look how wonderful, wise, enlightened we are.

Of course the real world is much more complex and difficult. Most 'honour' killings (what a disgusting use of the 'honour' term) are done within a tribal/racial context and have little to do with religion. I suspect that most of the 20,000 plus murders in the US have little to do with religion and a whole lot more to do with money, sex and general human wickedness. The notion that human beings are basically good until the ignorance of religion gets hold of them is one that is of course very attractive to many atheists. But I would urge a little more caution before making such simplistic, triumphalist and simplistic statements. And please stop using disgusting incidents like this to further your own philosophy. "

David Robertson

Other Comments by knox

38. Comment #37748 by Fedler on May 5, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Can we please stop marking David Robertson as a troll! His responses may be infuriating, but no more than our responses are to him.

Shall we ban Bonzai, too (#11) for merely suggesting another reason other than religion?

I firmly believe religion was at least a strong factor, but I'm also sure there are other mitigating factors we are not aware of. Let us please be accepting of other possibilities, also.

"I may disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to say it."

--Voltaire

The video made me want to vomit.

Other Comments by Fedler

39. Comment #37749 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 3:32 pm

37. Comment #37742 by knox

Hello David,

I agree that what you have written isn't trolling and I don't see why it should be blocked either.

I don't know a whole lot about honour killings. And, honour aside, it's true that religion is far from the only thing that motivates people to beat other people to death. Greed, revenge - sheer sadism, even. Here in England there was a horrific incident a few months ago in which a man was beaten to death by teenagers who didn't know him, apparently purely for the 'pleasure' of recording the incident on a mobile phone. It wasn't even a theft.

I also agree that, whilst I don't overall agree with your position on 'atheist fundamentalism', there is always a danger of the discussion on a site like this spiralling into in-group back-clapping. If this site is really about taking a scientific view of things, we ought to be challenging our hypotheses as standard practice. So I find it useful to read posts that require me to think twice about my opinions.

I nevertheless regard religions as fundamentally dangerous in so far as that they tend to provide an available moral framework for even disgusting acts like the one here. If a person subscribes to the belief that there is something more important than life itself, then it is a small step of logic to damaging or ending lives in the service of that thing. Whether it be a religious or political ideology, any faith that requires people to hold something unproveable to be more important than the lives of the people they share their existence with is a faith to worry about. Even if its central teaching is cuddling old folks and patting children on the head, it has a dangerous misunderstanding of reality at its core.

Certainly, the motivation to do enormous evil may not come from religion and may be common to us all. But where a religion supplies a rationalisation for acting upon that evil - 'do it for god and it's okay' - that religion is in grievous error. Such potential outweighs any amount of morally-sound detail within the doctrine of the religion. This possibility lies within every religion which claims access to a truth that is greater than mortal (ie observable) life itself.

Other Comments by _J_

40. Comment #37750 by BaronOchs on May 5, 2007 at 3:33 pm

That post by weefree did not need to be trollised.

Why are we being so hypersensitive?

Other Comments by BaronOchs

41. Comment #37751 by BaronOchs on May 5, 2007 at 3:34 pm

Also is knox a reference to John Knox who blew his trumpet against "the monstrous regiment of women" or whatever?

Other Comments by BaronOchs

42. Comment #37752 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 3:41 pm

34. Comment #37726 by HappyPrimate

That's really terrible. I do genuinely feel sorry for you. But keep it up. Due to its context, your atheism is clearly more needed (in a sense) than mine.

A friend of mine is a lovely lady and a devout Christian. She is about to enter into three years of theological training in order to become a Church of England vicar. She'll be wonderful at it and will doubtless do all sorts of social and emotional good along the way.

I'm lucky. She's still my friend. She just feels a bit sad that I no longer accept Jesus and am thus damned. I feel a bit sad that she has based all of her wonderful qualities (of concern for other people and so forth) on a totally fallacious world view that she simply won't allow herself to see.

But I can still have lunch with her if I want to. I feel sorry for you. But I think I feel sorry for your Christian friends even more. You actually have something to say that they could do with hearing.

Other Comments by _J_

43. Comment #37756 by Donald on May 5, 2007 at 3:55 pm

David, #37742.

The stoning is horrific. It is religiously inspired.

You say yourself "The whole thing is [..] yet another example of how human beings can use religion to reinforce tribalism and all manners of evil behaviour."

You then go on to make some simplistic and triumphalistic statements that you say are implied by the posting of this item on this site. After you made these statements, you then say we shouldn't make them.

Do you really understand the phrase STRAW MAN ??

If you feel that religions have redeeming features, please concentrate on reminding us what they are, and explaining why they can't be equally provided by humanist and secular institutions.

Other Comments by Donald

44. Comment #37758 by ghostbuster on May 5, 2007 at 4:02 pm

I think FXR said it right and to the point. Wherever there is a hatred towards women, their sexuality, their position within the patriarchy/hierarchy, their values, their bodies, or capabilities, tribal or not, behind all this lurks religion. Religion has most often defined women's positions in cultures. If this young women was in a secular society, treated as a human being under a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, was seen as equal and valuable, then this would not have happened. What in the culture is responsible for the belief that this young woman was NOT equal and NOT valuable? Religion.
Even the method of killing her is religious in origin.

Other Comments by ghostbuster

45. Comment #37762 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 4:20 pm

I see the video has now been removed from YouTube for a 'terms of use violation'.

Whilst I felt as uneasy about watching it as anyone, I think this is a shame. Events like this are horrific and some kind of glimpse of them, some kind of confrontation that rams home how silencingly, freezingly horrendous they are is very valuable. Shocking events should not be rendered unable to shock.

Is anyone familiar enough with YouTube to know how to query this bit of apparent censorship?

Other Comments by _J_

46. Comment #37763 by Robert Maynard on May 5, 2007 at 4:21 pm

David, I'm sorry to hear you are being excluded from discussion by unidentified elements of the community who are sick of you - I for one do not mind your presence, though I do take umbrage, as others have, with the irritating fact that your posts are not only full of nonsense and lies, but consistently so, despite our rebuttals. That time-wasting, relentless will to be incorrect, is technically troll-like behaviour. But let's not dwell, we need to christen (pun not intended) your new username with a patient rebuttal! EDIT: I'm too slow!

That is not an extreme statement - witness Stuart's post "Religion = mental illness. Fuckin. End. Of."

We could certainly discuss the particular meanings of "mental illness" as it relates to religion - I wonder why you're surprised, when the central thesis of The God Delusion is that religious belief is delusional (obviously a milder phrase than mental illness, but nevertheless..) - methinks in this case Stuart overstepped the boundaries and expressed the comparison in terms of a colloquial understanding of "mental illness". Few of us are trained psychologists or doctors, so naturally if someone said "Religion = totally fucking retarded" it would go without saying that they either don't know the specific requirements of mental retardation and were speaking out of turn, or they do, and were passionately making a tenuous and generalised connection. I wouldn't advise either, but I'm also not Stuart's father, and that's his business.

I have waxed elsewhere about defining atheism as an outlook which stresses the importance of reason and evidence, so maybe some of the distressed comments here have led to conclusions which are unsupported and out of line. In light of this, perhaps the next phase of your learning, after distinguishing between secularism and atheism, should be learning to distinguish between atheism and so-called "anti-theism".

"Most 'honour' killings (what a disgusting use of the 'honour' term) are done within a tribal/racial context and have little to do with religion."

Woops, no evidence! Have there really been studies parsing the contextual motivations for 'honour killings'? That's a serious question - I don't know. Even if it were the case that most are non-religious, and rely on some other source of unjustified patriarchal bullying besides religion, it is not the case in this particular story.

"The notion that human beings are basically good until the ignorance of religion gets hold of them is one that is of course very attractive to many atheists."

That's a very dry straw man. Once again, it is not claimed by atheists that all social problems are directly traceable to religion. What we do point out (for starters), is that there is a statistical correlation between religiosity and various social problems, where the opposite is true of secular populations. This does not therefore mean that becoming an atheist makes you automatically good, or that becoming a Christian automatically makes you worse, and no one should claim such a thing without some solid evidence. These are merely weighted statistics.
But what it does suggest (to me) is that some people who live their lives by simplistic ancient philosophies are finding the modern world increasingly difficult to reconcile with their worldview. I don't need to quote you the statistics, as I'm sure you've come across them. We can all take from them what we will, whether it stands as evidence of a society sinking into iniquity and the crosshairs of divine judgment, or evidence that people who believe this stuff are going to have less and less enjoyable lives as time goes on, or whatever!

"And please stop using disgusting incidents like this to further your own philosophy."

It is a sad tale, that most people could have done without. It's also a sad reality, that we can't afford to ignore.
On the other hand, it's pretty rich to criticise the processes that lead to it being posted here as being the machinations of anti-religious bias. All it takes is for one person to submit something to the site - then Josh or someone else that helps run the site will decide whether to put it up, then it's up - I can't speculate on the editorial control beyond this (it is, at the end of the day, a news portal for atheists - thus contributed to predominantly BY atheists), but I think it's safe to say that it's not the case that Josh forwards 10 potential articles to Dawkins, who sits on a gnarled throne, tosses aside 9 which are pro-religion, and sneers "They'll get a kick out of this inhumane stoning story!" - the site frequently features pro-religious content (Unless I am mistaken, a submission regarding your work is the reason you haunt these halls?). We really wouldn't begrudge Muslims, or indeed Christians, if they put up videos of people being stoned to death by atheists on their niche news portals, in an attempt to further their respective philosophies. We'll try and let you know when that event transpires.

But yes, perhaps it was wrong to "use" this horrible incident to further a philosophy here, by showing a story which explicitly demonstrated the mortal dangers of faith. I hope that in the interests of "overcoming ignorance" and the simplistic exploitation of tragedies, you promptly wrote a letter to Ken Ham following the Virginia Tech massacre, voicing your similar disapproval at his (in this case, completely baseless) attempt to link the killer and evolution/naturalism.

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47. Comment #37767 by phil rimmer on May 5, 2007 at 4:23 pm

David, #37742.

I'm not here because its an (anti) religious site. I'm here because its an anti dogma site. I am not in the least bothered whether behaviour is labled religious or cultural. If it is wrong and persists because political correctness demands respect because of that label, then it is a suitable subject for here "A Clear Thinking Oasis".

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48. Comment #37769 by Shadow on May 5, 2007 at 4:29 pm

Fanusi Khiyal wrote on on May 5, 2007 at 12:42 pm:

What I _can't_ understand is why the right thinking people of the world don't do everything in their power to wipe Islam from existence?

Because maybe "right thinking people" know what this kind of
eliminationist talk leads to?

If you feel that strongly about it, go sign up to fight buddy.

Too busy cranking up a PR demonization campaign against
the "multicultural postmods" ?

Or are you just another AEI scribbler who is (or whose children
are) too far up the "Bell Curve" to go fight?

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49. Comment #37774 by Bremas on May 5, 2007 at 4:39 pm

I haven't been posting because I have seen a lot of new posters here and have "backed off" to give them room.

I tend to enjoy reading the comments more than the articles themselves in most cases. So, on this one I ended up reading the majority of comments before even glancing at the article.

I feel like puking. I don't know if I could bring myself to watch the original video.

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50. Comment #37776 by _J_ on May 5, 2007 at 4:40 pm

Shadow,

I'm being rude, here, by butting in on something you've said to someone else. But, just three minor points:

---'If you feel that strongly about it, go sign up to fight buddy.'---

Oh? There's a fight to wipe out Islam? And you can sign up for it? *Surely* not the Iraq war? I don't remember it being advertised as a crusade against Islam, but perhaps I slept through that particular flight of your fancy.

Second, there's a bit of a difference between 'wip[ing] Islam from existence' and wiping everyone who is currently a Muslim from existence. If this distinction escapes you, it lies in the detail that only one of the two necessarily involves killing millions of people.

Third and finally: a lot of gut reactions to this video are undertstandably emotional, and a lot of the comments are consequently not as level-headed as they might be. So take a deep breath before you start barging people into the corner and intimidating them, eh?

(Rudeness ends; apologies as appropriate.)

Other Comments by _J_