Sunday, May 6, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Atheists go on the political offensive in God-fearing US

by Tim Shipman

Reposted from:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/06/wgod06.xml

By day, Joe Zamecki works as a landscaper and valet in Austin, capital of George W Bush's home state of Texas, which is regarded by many natives as God's own country.

In his spare time, however, he is quietly working to undermine the dominance of America's God-fearing majority. He is one among a growing band of "out" atheists, and wants a US that is "one nation under no god".

Atheists observing a Day of Reason, atheists go on the political offensive in God-fearing US

On Thursday, while Christian Americans were celebrating National Prayer Day, Mr Zamecki, the state director of American Atheists, was leading a demonstration against the public display of the words "In God We Trust" in the state legislature.

Atheist groups from Los Angeles to Little Rock observed a National Day of Reason instead.

Groups including Atheists for Human Rights and Atheist Alliance International - "Call 1-866-HERETIC" - are setting up summer camps and an internet recruiting campaign.

Mr Zamecki told The Sunday Telegraph: "We are seeing support for atheist groups grow. Those with no religious affiliation are the fastest-growing group in America, more even than Muslims."

Official figures show the ranks of the non-religious have doubled to 13 per cent, or 30 million people, since 1990.

Now a hard core of five million atheists is seeking the political clout that has made Christian conservatives and the Jewish lobby powerhouses in Washington politics.

They got a boost with the admission in March by the Californian Democrat congressman, Pete Stark, that he "does not believe in a supreme being", 127 years after Charles Bradlaugh became Britain's first openly atheist MP.
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America's first atheist congressman was flushed out by the Secular Coalition for America, the first godless group with a full-time Washington lobbyist.

The US constitution outlaws religious discrimination, but polls show only 45 per cent of Americans would be willing to vote for an atheist candidate for president, even if he or she was the best-qualified.

Yet a succession of books extolling atheism has proved very popular, led by Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion.

The Oxford University evolutionary biologist's work has been on the best-seller list for several months.

Sam Harris has sold 250,000 copies of The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason and has a new book out, Letter to a Christian Nation.

The shelves of American bookshops groan under titles like Atheism on the March, The Atheist Manifesto, and The Quotable Atheist.

Mr Dawkins said last week: "On my book tour of America I was agreeably surprised by the positive reception it got. There is a huge undercurrent of non-believing feeling in America which has felt repressed, suppressed, almost persecuted.

"Many people said, 'Thank you for saying what I have always wanted to say but didn't feel I could'."

Mr Dawkins is an advocate of increasing atheist militancy. "The secular, non-religious vote, if properly mobilised, is nine times as numerous as the Jewish vote," he said.

The Freedom from Religion Foundation, which boasts 10,000 members, has launched a case in the Supreme Court, calling for a ban on President Bush's federal support of faith-based groups as a breach of the constitutional division of church and state.

The group's president, Dan Barker, once an evangelist preacher, said: "There can be a tipping point in any society where people say enough is enough. If enough atheists and agnostics speak out, it can cause quite a sensation."

Joe Zamecki thinks the rise of atheism is in part a response to the overtly religious Mr Bush, whose father once declared: "I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."

Mr Zamecki said: "The war in Iraq, which was partly justified as a religious war, has turned a lot of people off religion. The internet has helped our movement. There is a whole generation of young Americans that is exposed to free and open debate."

Blogger Hemant Mehta, 24, who writes under the pen name "friendlyatheist", regularly debates with Christian fundamentalists online. He wrote: "We are not the bogeymen we have been made out to be for so long."

The atheists still have a mountain to climb. In a Republican presidential debate last week, candidates mentioned their faith 16 times, and three said that they did not believe in evolution.

Posted: Sunday, May 6, 2007 | Permalink

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1. Comment #37979 by DarwinsPitbull on May 6, 2007 at 2:49 pm

Happy to see something being done in this country to reduce religion. It's a slow movement but never the less it's moving somewhere

Other Comments by DarwinsPitbull

2. Comment #37981 by mjwemdee on May 6, 2007 at 2:49 pm

A mountain indeed. But we have some good sherpas now.

Other Comments by mjwemdee

3. Comment #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins on May 6, 2007 at 2:56 pm

I must admit that reading this article makes my stomach turn. But then I have to remember the fact that everywhere I have traveled in this country, there is a church within 10 minutes. I also have to remember that one person can make a difference, especially in a technology saturated society. Just as Dawkins has spread his hyper-dogmatic vitriol and hatred through the internet and the air waves, people like myself can show the public that one can be an intellectually fulfilled Christian.

Other Comments by Bizarro Dawkins

4. Comment #37986 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 6, 2007 at 3:17 pm

Heart warming article. Rationality marches on strong.

The fact there is a church every ten minutes whether in the UK or US only spurs us on more Bizarro.

Dawkins does what he does not out of hatred but concern for humanity. Will you never understand that?

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

5. Comment #37987 by BicycleRepairMan on May 6, 2007 at 3:19 pm

Atheism is climbing mount improbable :)

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

6. Comment #37989 by maton100 on May 6, 2007 at 3:20 pm

It is about time we got some props. Word.

Other Comments by maton100

7. Comment #37990 by maton100 on May 6, 2007 at 3:22 pm

If God has a problem with it he can just fly down and straighten things out. In the meantime I'll be polishing my teapot...

Other Comments by maton100

8. Comment #37991 by Hip_Priest on May 6, 2007 at 3:26 pm

this article makes my stomach turn.

Seriously? That's quite a reaction - can you explain what scares you about a more vocal secularist 'lobby'? Gay marriage or embryonic research? I'd like to know.

Other Comments by Hip_Priest

9. Comment #37992 by smithnya on May 6, 2007 at 3:30 pm

Fellow American atheists, I think it is up to us to keep this trend of increasing secularism going. Please, if you can, join groups such as Secular Coalition for America and The Freedom from Religion Foundation. The more members these groups have the better job they can perform in lobbying for us and representing us in this theocracy of the United States.

Other Comments by smithnya

10. Comment #37993 by MIND_REBEL on May 6, 2007 at 3:31 pm

Awesome, any athiest that cares about the world needs to get active. The atheist thats silent is no better than the theist who's vocal. We need to get organized, hold rallys and protests, and wage boycotts against any one that tolerates irrationiality.

Other Comments by MIND_REBEL

11. Comment #37995 by RickM on May 6, 2007 at 3:38 pm

Bizarro,

I must admit that reading your pathetic post makes my stomach turn.

Other Comments by RickM

12. Comment #37996 by Carter Maxwell on May 6, 2007 at 3:43 pm

Comment #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins

"...people like myself can show the public that one can be an intellectually fulfilled Christian.
"

I don't think there was ever any doubt about that. The concern isn't that they can't be intellectually fulfilled, it's that they shouldn't be. It's like an anorexic convincing themselves they are full.

Other Comments by Carter Maxwell

13. Comment #37997 by pewkatchoo on May 6, 2007 at 3:44 pm

Well done folks. I have to admit one of the worrying trends of recent times for us in Europe has been the march of the religious (fascist) right in the US.

Other Comments by pewkatchoo

14. Comment #38002 by mandrellian on May 6, 2007 at 3:52 pm

"Mr Dawkins is an advocate of increasing atheist militancy."

A very poor and uninformed choice of words. Nowhere in Dawkins' writings have I heard him advocate militancy. Action, organisation & public awareness, yes, but not militancy.

@ Bizarro: if you're accusing Dawkins of "hyper-dogmatic vitriol", perhaps you should re-read your bible and reflect on the old saying about the pot and the kettle ...

Other Comments by mandrellian

15. Comment #38005 by Phaderus on May 6, 2007 at 4:12 pm

I have a question for Bizarro Dawkins. How can I get to your Bizarro world? Since Bizarro world is opposite in many ways, there must be about 13% religious people and everyone else is atheist, sounds like paradise to me!

With no religiously motivated wars and dogmas to set back human kind, science and technology will have advanced to the point of a pollution free world with no lack of food or energy for all of the disease free, well educated, and intelligent people.

Did you take a bus or an inter-dimensional portal?

Other Comments by Phaderus

16. Comment #38006 by Luthien on May 6, 2007 at 4:17 pm

3. Comment #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins:

...people like myself can show the public that one can be an intellectually fulfilled Christian.

Hehehe... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....

*pauses to wipe tears from eyes*

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH...

Oh stop it, my sides are hurting!

hehehehehehehehehehehehe...

(Ooh, my cat is now looking at me as if I am mad.)

Other Comments by Luthien

17. Comment #38009 by MelM on May 6, 2007 at 4:23 pm

In other good news, Hitchens is taking his book promotion into the South. He'll debate any holy man that wants to debate. (He appeared on Charlie Rose Fri. night.) Yes, we really need to put religion into remission. If not, there is a "Kingdom Coming." (now in paperback) See the book: http://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Coming-Rise-Christian-Nationalism/dp/0393329763/ref=sr_1_1/104-7079336-6081544?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178492792&sr=1-1

Cheer up, the Universe isn't haunted.

Other Comments by MelM

18. Comment #38012 by phil rimmer on May 6, 2007 at 4:35 pm

Please, Bizarro, tell us why your stomach turns.

Is it because he wants you to leave the kids alone until they're able to make up their own minds?

Is it that he wants no tax breaks for religions?

A secular state?

Religion kept in the RE classroom out of the science classroom?

Do you actually fear that if he got his way on these things your religion would actually wither away because of it?

Do you see a man prone to hyper-dogmatic vitriol debating with the Bishop of Oxford? (I'll post the link if I can find it.)

Yes, do tell!

Other Comments by phil rimmer

19. Comment #38015 by Veronique on May 6, 2007 at 4:59 pm

3. Comment #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins

You get quite a drubbing on these threads, don't you? What makes you keep coming back? Is there a 'lollies from God' component? You know, like the JWs, who call unannounced and unwanted and are sent off with fleas in their ears, feel that because they have tried so hard to bring the Watchtower, as their calling card, to people who turf them off the front step, their god will reward them for their constant evangelism in the face of constant rejection.

Or are you just a contrary bastard who likes getting up everyone's nose?

Or, of course, you could be just a sad masochist.

The hyper-vitriol and hatred that you ascribe to RD, has lost you any claim to "intellectual", at least, on these threads, if not in moderate society. Religion does not engage the intellect. It plays on the fear of an avenging deity who demands obedience and awe.

Please understand that my comments and seeming questions are rhetorical only. They do not require your response.

I certainly have no desire to attempt to engage you in any real or thoughtful discussion so I'll leave you with a couple of quotes from Thomas Paine:

Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.

Of all the tyrannies that affect mankind, tyranny in religion is the worst.

V

Other Comments by Veronique

20. Comment #38016 by Lauregon on May 6, 2007 at 5:08 pm

Hi. I'm new here but have been lurking for a few weeks. I too hope Bizarro Dawkins will explain both the specific reason for his gastric unease, and what it is about his Christianity that makes him feel intellectually fulfilled.

BTW, I was delighted yesterday to see a woman in Borders asking for, being directed to, and having found a copy of "The God Delusion."

Other Comments by Lauregon

21. Comment #38017 by ambulocetus on May 6, 2007 at 5:08 pm

Hi Bizzaro Dawkins! Wow you're so cool I made a video just for you. It's a sweet little hymn entitled "Moral Majority". Enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzwtg3ZUElU

Other Comments by ambulocetus

22. Comment #38023 by Irate Harry on May 6, 2007 at 5:58 pm

Re #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins

With a handle like that and the claim of being an intellectually fulfilled christian, BD is a living oxymoron. But then this should not be surprising, since BD is obviously inspired by the endlessly self-contradictory bible that legitimises the oxymoron.

However, getting back to the main topic, it is encouraging to see some renaissance and enlightenment trying to break through. Three cheers to the "National Day of Reason"...

Other Comments by Irate Harry

23. Comment #38027 by Satanburiedfossils on May 6, 2007 at 6:30 pm

The ungodly atheists' evil agenda includes giving Americans even more freedom and purging religion's artificial crimes from the books.

Monsters!

(* Sarcasm alert! * Sarcasm alert! * Sarcasm alert! *)

Take a look at this:

"Utah Republican Blames 'The Devil' For Immigration"
http://kutv.com/local/local_story_116133225.html

And some insightful commentary here:

http://www.randi.org/jr/2007-05/050307.html#i1

Chairman Don Larsen's resolution says:

<< In order for Satan to establish his "New World Order" and destroy the freedom of all people as predicted in the Scriptures, he must first destroy the U.S�. The mostly quiet and unspectacular invasion of illegal immigrants does not focus the attention of the nations the way open warfare does, but is all the more insidious for its stealth and innocuousness. >>

Ah, how devious the arch-fiend Satan is. You see, while it would be all too easy for Satan to simply sneak into one of our nuclear silos and launch a missile toward Russia -- which would bring about Armageddon in one fell swoop -- Satan just doesn't operate that way. Much better to concoct a plot that is so unnecessarily convoluted that only rocket-scientists like Larsen can spot it.

(Larsen apparently forget to cite the chapter and verse of the good book that mentions "United States of America", "New World Order", and "illegal immigrant demonic plot". BTW I love Larsen's "Far Side" cartoons -- oh wait, that was Gary Larson.)

It is worth pointing out, however, that Larsen's assertion has been confirmed by a leprechaun and two of Santa's reindeer. The Tooth Fairy refuses to weigh in and has vowed to take the fifth if called before a Senate inquiry. Satan could not be reached for comment since Hell has very poor phone service as per decree.

(Are high gasoline prices a Satanic plot to keep God-fearing Xtians from making the weekly trip to church? Perhaps you should ask the leprechaun.)

Other Comments by Satanburiedfossils

24. Comment #38029 by framante on May 6, 2007 at 6:41 pm

My own exprience (an inordinate number of confided atheist friends and acquaintences) leads me to believe that there are far more atheists than generally believed but that they play along as believers to avoid rocking the social boat. As more people begin to show that it is acceptable to be a non-believer, I think that we will see a snowball effect as these closeted athiests reveal themselves.

Other Comments by framante

25. Comment #38043 by fun2bfree on May 6, 2007 at 7:50 pm

A very encouraging development that I saw today was the film "HOT FUZZ"--the comedy with Simon Pegg of Shaun of the Dead fame....in it Simon plays Detective Angel--and openly nontheist who is the hero of the piece and even says at one point to an obviously evil theist--- "I may not believe in God, but I do know right from wrong." It is great to see this sort of message in popular entertainment...we are making progress....

Other Comments by fun2bfree

26. Comment #38044 by richardchardy on May 6, 2007 at 7:57 pm

Has anyone heard of (anything like) Atheism on the March? I can't figure out where they got this title from, as I've never heard of such a book.

Other Comments by richardchardy

27. Comment #38045 by Reg on May 6, 2007 at 8:02 pm

Regarding - 3. Comment #37982 by Bizarro Dawkins on May 6, 2007 at 2:56 pm

I think can explain your stomach churning. Perhaps deep within your damaged mind you are beginning to realise how much you disgrace the race, or even that your descendants will look back at you and your ilk with both a sense of shear guilt and crippling embarrassment. To be 10 miles from a church can be significant in other ways, one being that if you drive to the place of the deluded fascists you could pull the fucking paedophile priest off the choirboy. Even if you're too late for his first, you could impede his second coming. What I cannot fathom is why you feel the need to post your drivel on this site; after all there are thousands of godfreak sites crying out for your feeble submissive mind. Is it all that pent up sexual frustration bubbling to the surface? Look just go and tell your mother the truth, that you are a rampant homosexual (I have no gripe with this activity but to keep it a secret must for those with the inclination be a great problem) unable to contain the strain, that while you have been portraying yourself as the perfect christian, you have in fact, over the years swallowed more bone than a lamagier. And then of course pray to empty space for forgiveness. Now that's vitriol.

Anyway, I just wanted to know if someone here could tell me when it was that Bush senior voiced this discriminating, vile opinion.
"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots."
Was it while it was still the president?

Other Comments by Reg

28. Comment #38081 by LDmiller on May 6, 2007 at 11:32 pm

Reg:

George Bush on atheism and patriotism

"Did George Bush really say that atheists should not be considered citizens?"

The following exchange took place at the Chicago airport between Robert I. Sherman of American Atheist Press and George Bush, on August 27 1987. Sherman is a fully accredited reporter, and was present by invitation as a member of the press corps. The Republican presidential nominee was there to announce federal disaster relief for Illinois. The discussion turned to the presidential primary:

RS:
"What will you do to win the votes of Americans who are atheists?"
GB:
"I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me."
RS:
"Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?"
GB:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
RS:
"Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?"
GB:
"Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists."

He was Vice President at the time. He refused to retract the statement after becoming President.

The Bushes are a very evil family for the last 3 generatiions, at least.

Other Comments by LDmiller

29. Comment #38100 by Suffolk Blue on May 7, 2007 at 1:19 am

So shall we see a series of high-profile Atheists being "outed" by Atheist Groups, in the same way that gays were outed by gay activist groups?

Would be fantastic to see more openly atheist american politicians. I beleive that in the UK, it is considered the norm!

Other Comments by Suffolk Blue

30. Comment #38110 by BillySands on May 7, 2007 at 2:27 am

Nice links Irate Harry. Having read them, I suppose Bizarro is intellectually fulfilled in his own little delusional world somewhere.

Other Comments by BillySands

31. Comment #38122 by Shuggy on May 7, 2007 at 3:09 am

Bizarro:

his hyper-dogmatic vitriol

Evidence (quotes) please.

Other Comments by Shuggy

32. Comment #38125 by L.Minnik on May 7, 2007 at 3:41 am

Hi Bizarro Dawkins,

I would just like to ask you -
Do all people adwocating other religions than yours make your 'stomach turn'?
Do you write on muslim sites or 'pagan' sites as much as here and say that they are spreading hatred?

Other Comments by L.Minnik

33. Comment #38129 by BillySands on May 7, 2007 at 4:14 am

L. Minnik
I wonder if he visits christian sites such as http://www.godhatesfags.com/
and tells them they are preaching hatred. Doubt it somehow

Other Comments by BillySands

34. Comment #38137 by Grandt on May 7, 2007 at 5:11 am

31. Comment #38122 by Shuggy

Richard Dawkins can at come across as firm and a bit demanding at times (not a bad thing imho), some religious pundits claim that that style is dogmatic and fanatic.
But please tell me, when have religious pundits NOT been dogmatic and fanatical? :-)

If you want to fight fire in the religious world, you have to use big headlines, lest the people who really need the wake-up call, won't get it.

Other Comments by Grandt

35. Comment #38139 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 5:34 am

Biz wrote, I must admit that reading this article makes my stomach turn. But then I have to remember the fact that everywhere I have traveled in this country, there is a church within 10 minutes.
_______

Fantastic. Really. Anxiety resulting from the realization that 'loud' atheists are making progress, including the political kind. Just imagine the ton of Pepto-BIZmol little ole Biz will have to down if all those churches become empty and remain so?

Other Comments by Logicel

36. Comment #38141 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 5:38 am

And those churches then house therapists that assist in helping former supporters of religious superstitions to not only embrace reality but to flourish within it, so the religious scourge can never return?

Other Comments by Logicel

37. Comment #38203 by Corylus on May 7, 2007 at 8:06 am

Bizarro

Re your gastric discomfort� I think you may have a touch of Sartrean nausea coming on.

I recall you saying on a separate thread that you were studying philosophy as well as biology. (That's cool, don't let anyone tell you that it's a waste of time).

Why don't you give old JP a try??

Other Comments by Corylus

38. Comment #38250 by RickM on May 7, 2007 at 10:22 am

Bizarro,

There exists an infrastructure whereby a hierarchy of instructors (priests) re-indoctrinate a group of followers (irrational faith believers) into a system of superstitious rules and rituals on a regular schedule (generally, Sunday mornings). Followers are assured comfort in an imaginary after-life by means of blackmail (hell fire).

The instructors use a fictious sacred text (bible) for which a claim to moral behaviors (thou shall not kill, do unto others�) are made and assured by an imaginary, loving rule giver (imaginary sky superhero/creator). Mandatory compliance with the sacred text is required in spite of the fact that the text also requires the immoral killing of adulterers, fornicators, homosexuals, misbehaving children, nonbelievers, Sabbath workers, etc.

What would you call this? Dogmatic? Fanatic? An answer is, clearly, not required.

Other Comments by RickM

39. Comment #38251 by MAS2007 on May 7, 2007 at 10:23 am

Bizarro

Re your gastric discomfort� I think you may have a touch of Sartrean nausea coming on.

Just drink the communal Koolaid Bizarro, should fix you right up.

Other Comments by MAS2007

40. Comment #38266 by vancouver_ron on May 7, 2007 at 11:04 am

One of my earliest recollections as a child was sitting in a Roman Catholic church pew, looking around, and thinking "this is soooooo stupid". I am so grateful havinig that healthy sense of skepticism, and being able to repel all attempts of indoctrination before finally, at the age of 20, being able to declare without qualification, that I was an athiest. And now 25 years later, I stumble across this website.

I thought I was all alone.

Other Comments by vancouver_ron

41. Comment #38267 by ridelo on May 7, 2007 at 11:08 am

@Bizarro from http://richarddawkins.net/article,990,Those-fanatical-atheists,Dan-Gardner-The-Ottawa-Citizen

Then there's the problem on the other side -- among the atheists such as Richard Dawkins who have been labelled "fanatics." Now, it is absolutely true that Dawkins' tone is often as charming as fingernails dragged slowly down a chalkboard. But just what is the core of Dawkins' radical message?

Well, it goes something like this: If you claim that something is true, I will examine the evidence which supports your claim; if you have no evidence, I will not accept that what you say is true and I will think you a foolish and gullible person for believing it so.

That's it. That's the whole, crazy, fanatical package.

Other Comments by ridelo

42. Comment #38345 by Sethiuss Maximus on May 7, 2007 at 7:08 pm

I think that Bizzaro has proven a point that everyone on here has missed. We are all pawns to evolution and societal organizations are governed by the laws of evolution. Religion is a dying one, a more advance form is taking its place--societies based on reason and logic and science.

Attacking religious individuals is not the way to go. It only bolsters their identity.

Want to off religion for good? Go for the jugular and show them by example how archaic they are. Also, do anything a society that wants to maintain itself does. Recruit.

Other Comments by Sethiuss Maximus

43. Comment #38346 by Sethiuss Maximus on May 7, 2007 at 7:08 pm

44. Comment #38355 by caledonventures on May 7, 2007 at 9:27 pm

In response to Bazzoro Dawkins Intellectual(sic)christian....

Anyone calling themselves and intellectual would then use that intellect to deduce, by reason, that religious dogma is tripe. Make up your mind, you are either and intellectual or a christian, you cannot be both.

When you become a man or woman, my friend, one puts away childish things. It's time you left the nursery!

Other Comments by caledonventures

45. Comment #38367 by MightierthanGod on May 7, 2007 at 10:23 pm

I have to remark on the comment which contained the words "intellectualy fulfilled christian". Such a person cannot exist and simply doesn't. You may be intelligent in one form or another, but none of that is to be associated with your constant clinging to a dead belief that has, so far only succeeded in getting millions of people killed. That's not intelligence.

Find this, or anything similar in the pages of history and I'll eat the hats from every head in the world: Today, 15 Agnostics hijacked a plane and flew it directly into the Church of Atheism.

We simply don't fight one another. We tend to think a little about things like that first as opposed to dismissing a person because of their beliefs. You may say "I don't dismiss a person simply because their beliefs oppose my own", but you do. Your religion has condemned them for an eternity they may or may not believe in, but their beliefs in that matter don't concern you. You, in you're benevolence, have simply forgotten that part of your "faith". All non Christians/Jews/Muslims/etc... are condemned, end of story.

Well... that's hate. Pure and simple hate. Intellectually fulfilled? My ass.

Other Comments by MightierthanGod

46. Comment #38370 by mok749 on May 7, 2007 at 10:49 pm

I think that we're fooling ourselves if we think that we can reason other people out of religion. If it was about reason, most people wouldn't be religious.

We need to tackle the underlying issue, which is poverty, pain, and injustice. No one who is downtrodden gives two squirts of piss about whether their world view makes sense logically. It may be hard for many of us who live generally happy lives to identify with, but the vast majority of the world has MORE IMPORTANT NEEDS than a sense of logical cohesion.

Fulfill people's need for food, shelter, freedom, and love. Then, and only then, will we find the end of religion.

Other Comments by mok749

47. Comment #38371 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 7, 2007 at 10:52 pm

Amen to that.

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

48. Comment #38477 by bamboospitfire on May 8, 2007 at 8:59 am

Regarding comment #38002 by mandrellian, RD called for militant atheism in his TED lecture. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with that.

However, I'm not sure that 1-866-HERETIC was the best choice of number, although I haven't thought of a suitable alternative with sufficient numbers/letters yet (REASON is one short). I think atheism needs to be shown to be *part of* a rational, sensible, moral way of life which has all of the real-world benefits of religion (appreciation, respect, support) without any of the drawbacks (suicide bombers, honour killings, deception, bigotry). If people can be shown that atheism and secularism can make their lives better (by removing their guilt and providing them with the ambition to take responsibility for themselves and make the most of their lives) then they will see sense more readily. Until then, I expect most of them will cling on to the empty promises of eternal salvation because that's pretty much all they have.

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

49. Comment #38497 by Mandingo on May 8, 2007 at 11:32 am

Five thousand years ago man believed in spiritual powers that controlled everything from the rising of the sun, the turning of the tides and a successful harvest. These spirits needed to be appeased and worshipped in order to ensure the sun rose again tomorrow. People even sacrificed eachother to their gods.

Most of today's society thinks of those people as simple, na�ve and even barbaric.

However 87% of today's society are still happy to believe in invisible spirits that can bring wrath and vengeance if not appeased and are still prepared to go to war and kill to defend their god. Millions of people kneel in empty buildings every day to sing praise to their god who lets good people suffer because he works in "mysterious ways".

We haven't come very far at all in five thousand years - it is a shame we may have to wait another thousand years before we are enlightened enough to see how the 21st century was still the Dark Ages.

Deferring to a higher authority might be appropriate for children but adults need to wake up and take responsibility for their lives and their actions - people are dying.

Other Comments by Mandingo

50. Comment #38633 by cameTo on May 8, 2007 at 9:16 pm

When I was younger, early twenties, I used to go to church. I wanted to believe and people told me it would come. I faked it for the longest time and it bothered me. I felt like I had a "hole that needed filled" but it could never be filled. I always heard people saying that God filled their lives and this hole disappeared.

One day I realized that I was not having moments of doubt or simply lacking faith. I thought there was something wrong with me. Why couldn't I truely have faith in a God. Then it hit me, I had been trying to force a lie on myself. When I accepted that I was an atheist, the hole that needed filled had vanished and I felt I had awakened to "The Truth".

I think people conceptualize Atheists as being itellectual know-it-alls with no moral fiber. This couldn't be further from the truth. I "came out of closet" to find that telling your family and friends that you're an atheist is not a good idea. They felt threatened by my me and arguments ensued. Today I talk about everything, except God, with them.

I understand why people believe and I am okay with their reasons for doing it. However, I appologize to no one for being an Atheist. I have accepted that this is my belief and I feel good about it. I find that I respect Life more now than I did when I was trying to make myself believe.

I have been wanting to express this for a long time.

Thanks

Imagine...

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