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Monday, May 7, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The New Atheists loathe religion far too much to plausibly challenge it

by Madeleine Bunting

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2074075,00.html

Anti-faith proselytising is a growth industry. But its increasingly hysterical flag-bearers are heading for a spectacular failure


It's an extraordinary publishing phenomenon - atheism sells. Any philosopher, professional polemicist or scientist with worries about their pension plan must now be feverishly working on a book proposal. Richard Dawkins has been in the bestseller lists on both sides of the Atlantic since The God Delusion came out last autumn following Daniel Dennett's success with Breaking the Spell. Sam Harris, a previously unknown neuroscience graduate, has now clocked up two bestsellers, The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation. Last week, Christopher Hitchens' God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything was published in the US. The science writer, Matt Ridley, recently commented that on one day at Princeton he met no fewer than three intellectual luminaries hard at work on their God books.

This rising stack of books has prompted screeds of debate, flushing out all manner of belief and unbelief in blogs, reviews, essays and internet exchanges in the US. The Catholic columnist Andrew Sullivan has just concluded his exchange with Sam Harris on the net, while the philosopher Michael Novak recently took on the whole genre of New Atheism, or neo-atheism. Surely not since Victorian times has there been such a passionate, sustained debate about religious belief.

And it's a very ill-tempered debate. The books live up to their provocative titles: their purpose is to pour scorn on religious belief - they want it eradicated (although they differ as to the chances of achieving that). The newcomer on the block, Hitchens , sums up monotheism as "a plagiarism of a plagiarism of a hearsay of a hearsay, of an illusion of an illusion, extending all the way back to a fabrication of a few non-events". He takes the verbal equivalent of an AK47 to shoot down hallowed religious figures, questioning whether Muhammad was an epileptic, declaring Mahatma Gandhi an "obscurantist" who distorted and retarded Indian independence, and Martin Luther King a "plagiarist and an orgiast" and in no real sense a Christian, while the Dalai Lama is a "medieval princeling" who is the continuation of a "parasitic monastic elite".

This kind of vituperative polemic sounds a tad odd this side of the Atlantic. Apart from an ongoing anxiety about Islam, the British are pretty phlegmatic about religion. Church attendance continues its steady decline and the Christian evangelical boom has never taken off. The whole New Atheist publishing phenomenon is like eavesdropping on a blistering row in the flat next door: one's response alternates between fascination and irritation, but is it really anything to do with us?

What's clear is that this wave of New Atheism is deeply political - and against some of its targets even a devout churchgoer might cheer them on. What they all have in common is a loathing of an increasing religiosity in US politics, which has contributed to a disastrous presidency and undermined scientific understanding. Dennett excoriates the madness of a faith that looks forward to the end of the world and the return of the messiah. What Dawkins hates is that most Americans still haven't accepted evolution and support the teaching of intelligent design; according to one poll, 50% of the US electorate believe the story of Noah. He argues that "there is nothing to choose between the Afghan Taliban and the American Christian equivalent ... The genie of religious fanaticism is rampant in present-day America."

Harris similarly draws an analogy between Muslims and the American Christian right: "Non-believers like myself stand beside you dumbstruck by the Muslim hordes who chant death to whole nations of the living. But we stand dumbstruck by you as well - by your denial of tangible reality, by the suffering you create in service of your religious myths and by your attachment to an imaginary God."

This is popular stuff - a plague on both your houses - on both sides of the Atlantic after a war on terror in which both sides have used their gods as justification for appalling brutality. But it tips over into something much more sinister in Harris's latest book. He suggests that Islamic states may be politically unreformable because so many Muslims are "utterly deranged by their religious faith". In a another passage Harris goes even further, and reaches a disturbing conclusion that "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them". This sounds like exactly the kind of argument put forward by those who ran the Inquisition. As one New York commentator put it, we're familiar with religious intolerance, now we have to recognise irreligious intolerance.

The danger is that the aggression and hostility to religion in all its forms (moderates are castigated as giving the fundamentalists cover for their extremism) deters engagement with the really interesting questions that have emerged recently in the science/faith debate. The durability and near universality of religion is one of the most enduring conundrums of evolutionary thinking, one of Britain's most eminent evolutionary psychologists acknowledged to me recently. Scientists have argued that faith was a byproduct of our development of the imagination or a way of increasing the social bonding mechanisms. Does that make religion an important evolutionary step but now no longer needed - the equivalent of the appendix? Or a crucial part of the explanation for successful human evolution to date? Does religion still have an important role in human wellbeing? In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on. If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?

This isn't the kind of debate that the New Atheists are interested in (with the possible exception of Dennett, who in an interview last year was far more open to discussion than his book would indicate); theirs is a political battle, not an attempt to advance human understanding. But even on the political front, one has to question whether all the aggression isn't counterproductive. Robert Winston voiced increasing concern among scientists when he argued in a recent lecture in Dundee that Dawkins's insulting and patronising approach did science a disservice. Meanwhile, critics in America argue that the polarisation of the debate in the US is setting the cause of non-deism back rather than advancing it.

Dawkins is an unashamed proselytiser. He says in his preface that he intends his book for religious readers and his aim is that they will be atheists by the time they finish reading it. Yet The God Delusion is not a book of persuasion, but of provocation - it may have sold in the thousands but has it won any souls? Anyone who has experienced such a conversion, please email me (with proof). I suspect the New Atheists are in danger of a spectacular failure. With little understanding and even less sympathy of why people increasingly use religious identity in political contexts, they've missed the proverbial elephant in the room. These increasingly hysterical books may boost the pension, they may be morale boosters for a particular kind of American atheism that feels victimised - the latest candidate in a flourishing American tradition - but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand.

m.bunting@guardian.co.uk

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1. Comment #38154 by Prospero on May 7, 2007 at 6:16 am

"Anyone who has experienced such a conversion, please email me (with proof)."

Yes, proofs are important.

Other Comments by Prospero

2. Comment #38155 by matlot on May 7, 2007 at 6:19 am

Unfortunately she makes a salient point. You've got to keep trying though eh?
I've always maintained a lurking suspicion that we beat ineffectually against the shield of religion while the real causes of strife - rampant inequality and scarcity of resources - remain protected. Certainly Chomsky makes a good case for the real source of misery in the world without considering religion at all.

Other Comments by matlot

3. Comment #38160 by Caesar Best on May 7, 2007 at 6:27 am

"In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on. If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?"

Screw that! Firstly I seriously question these findings, but if that was true, I'd still rather live a short life in freedom than a long one in the prison of religion.

"but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand."

Oowh, I understand. Atheism comes from understanding, not ignorance.

Other Comments by Caesar Best

4. Comment #38163 by Mash on May 7, 2007 at 6:41 am

"This isn't the kind of debate that the New Atheists are interested in (...); theirs is a political battle, not an attempt to advance human understanding."

Why can't you try to advance human understanding in a political debate?
In an attempt to advance human understanding, atheists have to overcome a massive political opposition in order to, for example, keep ID out of schools.

Other Comments by Mash

5. Comment #38164 by youmemeyou on May 7, 2007 at 6:45 am

I happen to agree with her assessment that many atheists do not prove their familiarity with the kind of games played mystical language. There is also an extent of naive demonization of all religious historical influences.

Bunting, like many journalists, has decided to take these weaknesses as the defining features of modern Atheists. This is simple bigotry and exhibits the same kind of mental simplicity she criticizes in athists.

Other Comments by youmemeyou

6. Comment #38167 by Paul Nettleship on May 7, 2007 at 6:56 am

 avatar"The books live up to their provocative titles: their purpose is to pour scorn on religious belief"

And why not? That is all infantile beliefs are worthy of. Anyway, the purpose of the books is to educate primarily. Clearly too late for this catholic journalist though.

Other Comments by Paul Nettleship

7. Comment #38168 by Magpie on May 7, 2007 at 6:58 am

 avatarThere is a rather unfortunate implicit tone to this piece; namely, that the New Atheists don't understand religion as well as me, Madeleine Bunting. Well, please enlighten us on your understanding of religon if this is the case.

Religion as you appear to see it - a belief in Gods and the afterlife - is not a universal phenomenon. What is universal is the belief in a hidden spirtitual world; a subtle but important distinction.

Of course, neither Dawkins nor Hitchens spend a single drop of ink discussing the role of religion. Except, they do. Dawkins argues that it is an evolutionary byproduct, a 'spandrel' (although though I doubt that he'd use Gould's terminology). Hitchens, from my understanding, takes an essentially Marxist view that religion is a consequence of the doubt, uncertainty and pain of oppressive conditions.

Finally, studies have indeed correlated faith with good health and happiness, but so too are morphine and pain relief. Just like morphine, religion can have unfortunate side-effects, and appears to be at least neutral in regards to societal health http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html . That is, a religious society is not a better one (although this alone doesn't entail that it is a worse one).

Other Comments by Magpie

8. Comment #38170 by mikehicks55 on May 7, 2007 at 7:02 am

Ms Bunting seems to believe that Atheists shouldn't be as passionate about their "disbelief" as the religious are about their faiths.

As a former Catholic, I have lost count of the number of times I have been seen ripe for conversion to another denomination, or now, back to Catholicism. I have friends at the moment, members of an evangelical group, who have taken me to their functions and attempted to brainwash me into the "happy clappy Jesus" mentality.

Atheists, by comparison, tend to have a live and let live attitude. I occassionally point out to religious friends apparent follies in their beliefs, but usually only as a rebuttal if I'm asked why I don't believe in God.

I can't believe that free thinkers will ever be as confrontational as many fundamental Christian groups; when was the last time atheists went door to door, or stopped anyone in a busy shopping centre in an attempt to convert any one to their way of thinking?

And as has been said many times, when did anyone carry out an act of terrorism in the name of atheism?

Whilst the "herding cats" metaphor is still as applicable as ever, if nothing else, the recent "publishing pheneomenon" has allowed more people to feel they can stand up and say "I am a cat!"

Other Comments by mikehicks55

9. Comment #38172 by Dax on May 7, 2007 at 7:05 am

Funny how proof of "deconversion" is demanded but proof of existence of a fictional, infinitely improbable and infinitely cruel deity is not required.

Other Comments by Dax

10. Comment #38173 by jaytee_555 on May 7, 2007 at 7:09 am

"These increasingly hysterical books may boost the pension...."

Apparently Ms Bunting doesn't realise that books and articles promoting religion and superstition are much more likely to produce a pension than those championing rationality. (Or perhaps she does!)

Jaytee_555 (UK)

Other Comments by jaytee_555

11. Comment #38174 by Robert Maynard on May 7, 2007 at 7:09 am

 avatarBy proof, I wonder what she means? A scanned copy of a receipt for TGD? Three photos of yourself, first with a Bible, then The God Delusion, then nothing, and ..a smile? Do some religions have membership cards/certificates they could tear up for demonstrative purposes? :P

I see "New Atheism" as taking the same course as feminism and the gay pride social movements. Dawkins has said as much himself, that this activist attitude must be taken, if not to
"turn everyone" atheist, at least to just get it out there, and plough the issue into the social consciousness, to "raise consciousness".
Like feminism and homosexuality, the best way to counter a prevailing attitude of 'don't ask; don't tell' is basically to go "hysterical" for a few years. It's never necessarily an organised push, I don't think, so much as a critical mass of blossoming solidarity and community.
In the aftermath, once your foot is in the door of social awareness, and your stance is acknowledged as common and respectable, it's ripe to become sheltered by the progressive consensus, stereotypes are slowly eroded, and you are then in a position to pursue changes to any social policies that made your life a secret hell before you found you weren't alone (such as workplace discrimination, twisted educational reform, or undermining the first amendment)

Total (or even mass) deconversion will probably not be a reality anytime soon (especially in America), but that doesn't make the activism of "New Atheism" any less desperately important or worthwhile, for the general welfare and legitimacy of atheists as equal citizens of the world.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

12. Comment #38175 by Serious on May 7, 2007 at 7:12 am

The Guardian seems to be a steady source of some of the worst of this kind of aggressive anti-Atheist articles. How come?

Other Comments by Serious

13. Comment #38178 by FightingFalcon on May 7, 2007 at 7:19 am

 avatarSomeone please remind the author that the so-called "benefits" of religion should not factor into the debate over whether God exists or not.

As Dawkins says in TGD (paraphrasing) - even if we knew that the world would completely fall apart without religion, it wouldn't change for one second the fact that God does not exist.

I understand why people use/need religion but does that change anything? Does God suddenly exist because they want him to?

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

14. Comment #38179 by youmemeyou on May 7, 2007 at 7:20 am

I'd say that positive scientific works have done more to supplant my theological superstition than philosophy. If the non-existent 'religion of atheism' has nothing to offer (being absent), atheists do not lack.

Other Comments by youmemeyou

15. Comment #38181 by Captain Yesterday on May 7, 2007 at 7:20 am

 avatar"and Martin Luther King a "plagiarist and an orgiast" and in no real sense a Christian"

I have to question if she has even read the book at all or just picked up some very out of context statements. Hitchens fairly lavishes praise upon MLK in the section regarding him. Yes, he (eventually) does point out that MLK had some personality quirks that most christians would rail against, but makes it very clear that those quirks did not make him less of a christian nor minimize the impact and importance of what he set out to accomplish. How anyone could read Hitchens' book and think he was calling King "in no real sense a christian" is beyond me.

Getting a bit tired of this "hysterical" tripe as well. Dawkins et al essentially have said "bring forth evidence and we'll gladly listen. Barring that evidence, there is no reason to accept your folklore and myths". Counterpoise that with the typical hellfire and damnation, atheist/homosexual-agenda, ID christians and one wonders if these people have any concept of the meaning of the term "hysterical".

Other Comments by Captain Yesterday

16. Comment #38184 by HunterZolomon on May 7, 2007 at 7:27 am

 avatarSeriously challenging religion at all it seems, is intolerably hateful in some peoples eyes.

Increasingly hysterical books? Which books I wonder, is she comparing them with? Don't even get me started on that remark about "boosting the pension"...

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

17. Comment #38187 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 7, 2007 at 7:31 am

Funny how someone's trying to deride atheism as a money making exercise!! Oh the scandal!

Have you been to the vatican recently Madeleine Bunting?

The article is pretty inoffensive until you get to the very end, where I guess she was looking for something barbed to say that would round things off nicely.

Dawkin's helped me change my mind. My proof? - I SAY SO! Stick it in your pipe and smoke it.

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

18. Comment #38188 by Corylus on May 7, 2007 at 7:31 am

 avatarI don't understand. How can you "loathe something far too much to plausibly challenge it?"

Did Pankhurst loathe sexual inequality too much to plausibly challenge it? Did Gandhi loathe British rule too much to plausibly challenge it? Did Mandela loathe apartheid too much to plausibly challenge it?

I could go on, but you get my point… Is the only legitimate form of protest that which is 'phlegmatic'?

I agree though that atheists need to gain understanding. I became one not by reading TGD (sorry RD!) but by reading the bible. I think it should be much more widely read, and not just the sanitized passages that one is directed to. I also have the Koran in my 'to read' pile, but I admit I haven't worked up the guts to wade through it yet. Every quote I have read from it depresses me and I fear it will be more of the same. Maybe I should take a leaf out of Hitchens book and do it on Dutch courage? Even if that does mean that I will be damned to hell before I start :)

Overall, there is evidence that this journalist has actually read the books she is talking about, (and I give her credit for that) but I wonder, has she actually read the books about which they talk?

Other Comments by Corylus

19. Comment #38190 by Snomann32 on May 7, 2007 at 7:36 am

The writings of Richard Dawkins were of significant importance in my "conversion" to atheism, although it was more of a process than an event. How do I provide "proof" about this, however?

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20. Comment #38191 by Mr. Mark on May 7, 2007 at 7:41 am

"If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?"


Hmm? What gaps are created when wars end?

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21. Comment #38193 by BaronOchs on May 7, 2007 at 7:42 am

 avatar
By proof, I wonder what she means? A scanned copy of a receipt for TGD? Three photos of yourself, first with a Bible, then The God Delusion, then nothing, and ..a smile?


Be careful she doesn't drop the envelope and get them in the wrong order.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

22. Comment #38194 by Keinen_Gott on May 7, 2007 at 7:46 am

Let the 21st be the century of a new enlightenment; the century we all, as a race, realised that we must get rid of all forms of religious dogma if we are to survive each other. If this is not so we all will surely die in some form of a religious war or genocide. I can see in the not so distant future a war called WW3(christianity vs Islam). Let us all hope that this is not so.

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23. Comment #38195 by Stuart Paul Wood on May 7, 2007 at 7:48 am

Corylus:

"I don't understand. How can you "loathe something far too much to plausibly challenge it?""

Well, its like racism you see. If you really dislike racism that much that you start saying something about it (shock horror!) then you actually pass a critical point whereupon you concede all moral superiority to racists and are forced to become their sniveling bitch for the rest of eternity.

Er, yeah right. What a load of utter balls.

Other Comments by Stuart Paul Wood

24. Comment #38200 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatarCorylus wrote, I don't understand. How can you "loathe something far too much to plausibly challenge it?"
_________

The recognition and focusing on disgust is used in therapy to change behavior. So in loathing theism, atheists can drum up enough disgust to fuel a sustained confrontation against religious superstitions, effecting change and keeping religion separate from the public sphere. Theists, themselves, are not loathed, but their ridiculous and potentially dangerous concept that belief without any evidence is good, is what is loathed.

So, I agree, Corylus, that this author is ignorant of how powerful a motivator disgust can be.

Other Comments by Logicel

25. Comment #38201 by hightrekker on May 7, 2007 at 8:01 am

We must realize the toxic parasites (religion) that are colonizing these poor hosts (believers) will not let them think critically, as it threatens their replication and survival.
Look at some religions (Judaism for example)-- One cannot even mention the name of the God (parasite), so it cannot be discussed or analyzed- hence a very effective survival trait.
The infected are not capable of truth, without massive education through science, and possibly meditation to watch their mind reactions.
This author is incapable of reason or analysis.

Other Comments by hightrekker

26. Comment #38202 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:05 am

 avatar22. Comment #38193 by BaronOchs on May 7, 2007 at 7:42 am / By proof, I wonder what she means? A scanned copy of a receipt for TGD? Three photos of yourself, first with a Bible, then The God Delusion, then nothing, and ..a smile?



Be careful she doesn't drop the envelope and get them in the wrong order.

___________

Hilarious!

Other Comments by Logicel

27. Comment #38205 by squinky on May 7, 2007 at 8:09 am

 avatar"In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on. If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?"

PUHLEEEASE! How about:
"In recent years, substantial research has shown that people in countries (eg. Sweden) that reject religion altogether are happier, live longer, are healthier, smarter, have less crime, have less unwanted pregnancy and so the list goes on. If religion persists, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?"

Madeleine Bunting, you are an idiot. By your illogic, vociferous opposition to slavery and sexism and racism would 'do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon [slaves, women, minorities] loathe too much to understand.'

Other Comments by squinky

28. Comment #38206 by Grandt on May 7, 2007 at 8:09 am

I've always found it hilarious when 'believers' claim that atheists don't know about religion, and as such shouldn't comment on it.

Fine.

If we are not to comment on religion, 'believers' should refrain from commenting on scientific topics.

Somehow I don't think that that is going to happen though.

Other Comments by Grandt

29. Comment #38207 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 7, 2007 at 8:11 am

 avatarI'm going to swim against the flow here for a moment:-)

In a another passage Harris goes even further, and reaches a disturbing conclusion that "some propositions are so dangerous that it may even be ethical to kill people for believing them".

I read this when it was published, and it's not taken out of context. I have to say, it left me cold at the time, and it had the same effect in this article. This idea taken to it's extreme, is an ideology wedded to atheism, that has the potential to be everything that disingenous a-holes like Weefree and his multiple personalities claim it is. That worries me.

Should I be?

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

30. Comment #38208 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:15 am

 avatarI agree, Brian, it does make the blood run cold. Why not say, ".... be ethical to imprison people for believing them". And even that change is a bit redolent of tyranny.

Other Comments by Logicel

31. Comment #38210 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 7, 2007 at 8:27 am

 avatar31. Comment #38208 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:15 am

I agree, Brian, it does make the blood run cold. Why not say, ".... be ethical to imprison people for believing them". And even that change is a bit redolent of tyranny.


This opens an entire can of worms. Look, if someone rapes a baby (a gasthly example of "faith" I've been using recently) because they think it prevents AIDS, this is a clear cut case.

However, what about teaching kids about eternal seperation from God? Or about eternal torment in Hell? Or teaching adults? There is a blurring line here which it may be hard to resist the urge to cross in a position of political power. Food for thought:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

32. Comment #38211 by TrashcanMan79 on May 7, 2007 at 8:30 am

It's funny that those who have the most to lose by the success of the 'New Atheists,' are the ones criticising them for utilizing ineffective methods. Could it be that, despite their tone, the New Atheists are having success, and their critics are just fearful that their hostility will be contagious?

Other Comments by TrashcanMan79

33. Comment #38212 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:30 am

 avatar...but one suspects that they are going to do very little to challenge the appeal of a phenomenon they loathe too much to understand.
________

OK, Ms Bunting, you have convinced me the errors of my loud atheistic ways. I trust your crystal ball much more than the reality of books on atheism going like hot cakes. I agree with you that such heated sales are because the buyers crave to support these writers in their retirement, not because they crave the knowledge contained within these cantankerous writings.

Other Comments by Logicel

34. Comment #38213 by BaronOchs on May 7, 2007 at 8:37 am

 avatarRE: Logicel and briancoughlanworldcitizen.

I think Sam Harris's suggestion was only meant for very special circumstances.

i.e. If I told you there was someone who has a hydrogen bomb and is completely convinced it is god's will he must detonate it, and I had the power to kill this person surely it would be right to go ahead?

Perhaps some slightly less extreme examples can be thought of but I don't think he saying anything much more controversial than that. I will come clean I have read numerous articles and so forth by Sam Harris but haven't yet read The End of Faith. So you can fill me in if I'm misled.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

35. Comment #38214 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:40 am

 avatarAs one New York commentator put it, we're familiar with religious intolerance, now we have to recognise irreligious intolerance.
_____

For such an erudite word crafter like Ms Bunting, it is a bit off putting to witness her conflating irreligious intolerance with criticism of religion.

Other Comments by Logicel

36. Comment #38215 by rokort on May 7, 2007 at 8:41 am

 avatarThis is just another attempt to throw dust into the debate only to diverge the attention from what it's really about: that there's no higher power whatsoever and religion is dangerous and brutal.

Calling TGD a hysterical way of pushing a political agenda is -for me- proof that this lady doesn't want to talk about facts using deep reasoning. Probably because she doesn't know how or what Dawkins et al. put forward is too hard to swallow for her. Angst paralyses and makes one go into denial. O how she must have been hysterical when finding out Santa doesn't really exist..........poor ignorant soul. Dangerously ignorant though.

Other Comments by rokort

37. Comment #38216 by troodon on May 7, 2007 at 8:42 am

"Yet The God Delusion is not a book of persuasion, but of provocation - it may have sold in the thousands but has it won any souls? "

Souls....none
Minds....well, that's different

Other Comments by troodon

38. Comment #38217 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 8:44 am

 avatarMeanwhile, critics in America argue that the polarisation of the debate in the US is setting the cause of non-deism back rather than advancing it.
______

Well, that does it again, Ms Bunting, if critics are saying that the cause of non-deism is putting it back rather than advancing it, then that is the truth.

Other Comments by Logicel

39. Comment #38218 by scooternyc on May 7, 2007 at 8:52 am

 avatarI find the implication of there being a "debate" so absurd it's laughable. There is no debate when you challenge the religious of our world with providing scientific evidence to their claims.

In all other areas of our world and our lives we expect the scientific method to provide us with the strongest foundation for proving of hypothesis which have created more comfort throughout the years based on these proved theories, which create products, cure illness, conserve resources, etc.

To make the claim that god exists or that the bible is the word of god is nothing more than fiction as we all know, until the accusers bring forth their evidence of fact to such a claim.

My answer to any person these days who brings up this so-called "new religion of atheism" is simply: " you have no proof of your claim, otherwise you would have presented it; the time of conscious raising is at hand and religion's time has come for extinction".

People want to continue to argue for which I simply reiterate, "Where's your proof?" A book that authenticates itself is not proof. Ignorance of science on your part in understanding the world, in which we live, is not proof. Your "personal experience is not proof.

God is a placebo – filled with nothing with nothing to offer.


Cheers!

Other Comments by scooternyc

40. Comment #38220 by ghostbuster on May 7, 2007 at 8:57 am

Sounds to me the only hysterical thing I see here is the article itself--or perhps Ms. Bunting having a difficult time while in the process of denial.
Convincing the convinced is an exercize in futility; they go away either crying, mad or both (at least that's my experience) then pop up the next day, beliefs firmly in heads.

Other Comments by ghostbuster

41. Comment #38221 by steve99 on May 7, 2007 at 8:59 am

 avatarMs. Bunting has been a long-time contributor to the Guardian, and her piece here is typical of her middle-brow ideas.

I believe the reason why the Guardian is such a good source of such muddled thinking is because it has only a token reporting and understanding of science issues. Apart from the occasional piece by the wonderful Ben Goldacre, the paper has a tendency to drift into sloppy cultural relativism. I stopped buying it daily when its sister paper the Observer started publishing horoscopes...

Other Comments by steve99

42. Comment #38222 by Robert Maynard on May 7, 2007 at 9:00 am

 avatarLogicel said:
Why not say, "... be ethical to imprison people for believing them". And even that change is a bit redolent of tyranny.
It is already policy for Western society to keep a close eye on people who, through their beliefs or their actions, pose a threat to themselves and others. This has traditionally been reserved for people with severe psychological dysfunction, and few people dispute that it is ethical to isolate unfortunate people whose minds are dangerously impaired.
I definitely disagree with Harris's suggestion (at least as a basis for social policy), but it is fortunately only a suggestion. Nevertheless, mightn't it be ethical to at least isolate people that we can identify as holding ideas in forms so severe they pose a threat to other people?

The concept of ideological dysfunction has steadily crept into US social policy post-9/11, and with plenty of controversy. But the idea that people who believe significantly dangerous things should be identified and isolated should not be a controversial idea, in principle (unless someone is ready to defend the rights of sociopaths, with an impaired sense of empathy for the suffering of others, to mingle freely and say, own a gun)
What we should be wary of, is state-defined, controlled and enforced definitions of 'dangerous ideology'.
When the danger of ideologies can be emphasised as dangerous to the state, to a greater extent than the entire community of individuals that make up a state, you've got a recipe for fascism. Then the state can say things like "Oh, political discourse? Criticism is a danger to the integrity of the state. You don't want the state to be endangered do you? If you do.. you're also a danger to the state. We knew you'd agree."

Anyway, it is a delicate balance, and a difficult problem. How can we identify dangerous elements in our society without violating the basic rights of the society at large? And how can we form useful definitions of what is threatening and what is harmless, particularly on continuums of "irrational belief"?

...that went a bit off-topic, but it's an interesting issue.

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43. Comment #38223 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 9:01 am

 avatarApart from an ongoing anxiety about Islam, the British are pretty phlegmatic about religion. Church attendance continues its steady decline and the Christian evangelical boom has never taken off.

and

Does religion still have an important role in human wellbeing?
______

I think what is even more a pressing question, Ms Bunting, is the following: Should the craft of making horse harnesses, which was reputed to increase the happiness of the harness maker, be allowed to continue to decline just because it was replaced by auto manufacturing?

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44. Comment #38224 by scooternyc on May 7, 2007 at 9:03 am

 avatarThe idea that those who are religious do more charity work sounds so shallow and stupid. You mean these people wouldn't do something that was good toward their fellow citizen were it not for some god or religion to tell them to do so?

Could that behavior be any LESS religious, charitable or pious?

All the arguments are stupid to engage in, unless a religious person who makes the claim/hypothesis that god exists is able to present empirical evidence then they should be revealed for the sham that they are.

It should be our only response…repeatedly. "Where's your evidence?" No evidence? No discussion.

Absence of evidence is evidence of absence – Victor Stenger, The God Hypothesis

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45. Comment #38226 by Logicel on May 7, 2007 at 9:15 am

 avatarRobert Maynard, I agree with all your points. Perhaps discoveries in neuroscience will eventually help us, along with other measures, in being able to accurately identify those whose brains are unable to function in a manner which promotes humanity. But, it seems that it will always be a delicate proposition, to not to tempt tyranny/eugenics.

However, the challenging nature of such a prospect must not in itself deter efforts in finding a solution. With advances in science, from increasing our longevity, to replacing worn body parts, genetic engineering, all of these developments are and will be challenging to regulate and promote well for the benefit of humanity. But then again, that it how it always has been. The rapid increase in science and technology, however, is happening on a much steeper incline than ever before in our human history.

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46. Comment #38227 by Mikado on May 7, 2007 at 9:16 am

In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on.

So the fear of going to hell keeps you alive a little longer.

To bad Dawkins, Dennett, Harris and Hitchens were not informed that the proper way to promote their views was a nice polite letter to the editor of The Guardian.

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47. Comment #38229 by Luthien on May 7, 2007 at 9:19 am

 avatar
19. Comment #38188 by Corylus on May 7, 2007 at 7:31 am

I also have the Koran in my 'to read' pile, but I admit I haven't worked up the guts to wade through it yet. Every quote I have read from it depresses me and I fear it will be more of the same. Maybe I should take a leaf out of Hitchens book and do it on Dutch courage? Even if that does mean that I will be damned to hell before I start :)


Hey, try reading it using the skeptics annotated Koran.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm

Please note that the "good stuff" section is unsurprisingly short ;-)

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48. Comment #38230 by Tukka on May 7, 2007 at 9:23 am

What's clear is that this wave of New Atheism is deeply political - and against some of its targets even a devout churchgoer might cheer them on. What they all have in common is a loathing of an increasing religiosity in US politics, which has contributed to a disastrous presidency and undermined scientific understanding. Dennett excoriates the madness of a faith that looks forward to the end of the world and the return of the messiah. What Dawkins hates is that most Americans still haven't accepted evolution and support the teaching of intelligent design; according to one poll, 50% of the US electorate believe the story of Noah.

...

Scientists have argued that faith was a byproduct of our development of the imagination or a way of increasing the social bonding mechanisms. Does that make religion an important evolutionary step but now no longer needed - the equivalent of the appendix? Or a crucial part of the explanation for successful human evolution to date? Does religion still have an important role in human wellbeing? In recent years, research has thrown up some remarkable benefits - the faithful live longer, recover from surgery quicker, are happier, less prone to mental illness and so the list goes on. If religion declines, what gaps does it leave in the functioning of individuals and social groups?

This isn't the kind of debate that the New Atheists are interested in (with the possible exception of Dennett, who in an interview last year was far more open to discussion than his book would indicate); theirs is a political battle, not an attempt to advance human understanding.


Blatant deception and self-contradiction here.

First of all, anybody who has read Breaking the Spell knows that the first few chapters of the book are anything but a damning indictment of religious faith, but rather simply seek to establish why it is worthwhile to ask questions about religious faith, and why and how it might have developed, and what possible benefits it might have had, in our evolutionary past (and by extension, the present). To act surprised that Dennett is willing to have an open dialog on these subjects because of the content of his book is utterly ridiculous -- it indicates a motivation to either mis-characterize Dennett's work or the fact that Bunting hasn't actually read it (both possibilities seem plausible.)

Then she makes much of pointing out that the "New Atheist" movement is a political one, and even goes so far as point out that figures like Dawkins loathe religion, in part because of the impediment it has been to the adoption of acceptance and understanding of the theory of evolution ... then she turns around and says that this political movement has no interest in improving the public understanding. I guess science isn't an important element of human understanding, in Bunting's mind.

She mentions research that indicate supposed benefits of having religious faith, indicating that us the "New Atheists" (with the possible exception of Dennett) are uninterested in discussing them. Maybe if she actually cited the research she's talking about we could see why -- I've read about some of this research and often the methodology is flawed, causation (rather than correlation) is never firmly established and the conclusions reached are outright deceptive.

Also, there is the point that's been made time and time again, that though religion may in fact be beneficial in some respects, this does not, in any way, count as proof that religion is true, which admittedly may be the focus of books such as The God Delusion. There is nothing wrong with focusing on one claim "God exists," and hammering away at it with an assault of logic and science, disregarding superfluous (in this context) claims such as "religion helps people."

Now, I am just a "foot soldier" in the New Atheist movement, but I am interested in studies that suggests benefits of religious faith because I want to know why faith is beneficial in cases where it actually is beneficial. If we can figure that out, by taking a scientific, rational approach, perhaps we can figure out secular means of duplicating the positive effects of religion -- perhaps even surpassing the efficacy of religion itself in these areas.

If it turns out that in some cases that is impossible, that you can't separate the delusion from some of its benefits, well, that's unfortunate, but we have heaps of evidence that religion is really profoundly dangerous and damaging in some ways, and the slim benefits of religious faith do not in any way appear to stack up against its massively detrimental influence on humanity.

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49. Comment #38231 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on May 7, 2007 at 9:25 am

 avatar How can we identify dangerous elements in our society without violating the basic rights of the society at large? And how can we form useful definitions of what is threatening and what is harmless, particularly on continuums of "irrational belief"?

Are any ideas so dangerous and contagious that people have to be killed, or imprisoned to prevent their spread? I don't think so, and religion doesn't qualify, precisely because it is so ludicrous and intellectually threadbare.

The real challenge is where specific religious beliefs can be construed as harmful. Teaching children about eternal torment is, I think, right on the interface. It's damage, but the damage is hard to quantify, and what if its a parent doing the teaching? I love a good tasty ethical dilemma:-)

Other Comments by briancoughlanworldcitizen

50. Comment #38232 by maton100 on May 7, 2007 at 9:29 am

 avatarWhy change religion? It is perfect in its ridiculousness. We just want people to know that fantasy is optional. There is a way out and it is never too late to get help...

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