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Friday, May 11, 2007 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons

by The Muslim Weekly

Thanks to Ruby Gold for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.themuslimweekly.com/fullstoryview.aspx?NewsID=AAD63CE96AFAD9BB39FBE86A&MENUID=WOMEN&DESCRIPTION=Women
French Muslim women opt for hymen surgical cons
French Muslim women are getting their hymens re-sewn to pass off as virgins to their prospective spouses.

This 30-minute outpatient procedure, called "hymenoplasty" and costing between 1500 and 3000 euros ($2000-$4000), is increasingly popular among young women of North African descent in France.

No exact figures exist to say how many such operations are done, but the women's surgeon says he gets three to five queries and performs one to three hymenoplasties each week. Demand has been rising for the past three or four years.

Doctor Marc Abecassis, whose office is near the chic Champs Elysees, sees the rise in religion among France's five million Muslims fuelling this trend.

His patients are between 18 and 45-years-old, Muslim, born both in France and in North Africa.

"Many of my patients are caught between two worlds," said Abecassis.

Despite the Islamic prohibition of relationships between the sexes and on fornication, some Muslim women have had boyfriends and sex prior to marriage.

After the break up of the relationship, they find themselves non-virgins, and this poses a huge problem when it comes to marriage and exposure and shame.

A 26-year-old French born Algerian woman had her hymen re-sewn, technically making her a virgin again.

"I'm glad I had it done," said the woman, "I wanted to reconstruct part of my life, to reconstruct myself so that I could feel better about myself."

For this woman, the decision to have the surgery came after she broke up with a boyfriend who had pressured her into having sex.

She felt a hymenoplasty would help put her life back together again.

Another of Abecassis' patients, a 22-year-old Algerian immigrant said most young women had the operation to respect their culture or family tradition, not for religious reasons.

In fact, neither woman is a practising Muslim.

They dress, speak and act like other young Parisians, but are also part of a growing group of women who foolishly try to juggle Islamic and modern French values.

She had also lost her virginity to an ex-boyfriend. She plans to marry soon and her fiancé rightly expects her, as a Muslim, to be a virgin.

So last month, she commuted in from an eastern suburb of Paris, where she lives with her parents, and had the surgery.

Another woman, a 19-year-old Moroccan studying in Paris said: "I dated a boy when I was 15 and I didn't even realise what had happened," she said, referring to her first and only sexual experience. "I didn't understand what I did."

Her parents introduced her to a young man earlier this year, and they plan to wed when she returns to Morocco in June.

But he would not accept a non-virgin, so she needs the operation soon.

She is scraping together the monthly allowance sent by her parents and emptying her savings account to pay for it.

Two friends back home will lend her the remaining 1000 euros.

"If my mother ever found out about this, she would have a mental breakdown," she said. "I don't want to have this surgery, but I don't have any choice."

A leading Muslim spokesman said Islam says bride and groom should be virgins before marriage, but did not take a clear stand for or against hymenoplasties.

"If someone committed a sin, the essential thing is to repent," said Lhaj Thami Breze, head of the Union of French Islamic Organisations.

For many doctors, re-sewing the hymen goes against their ideals of sexual freedom and personal liberty.

"The surgery is an attack on women's dignity," said Professor Jacques Lansac, president of The National College of Gynaecologists and Obstetricians of France. "We will not take part in a market that places value on the quality of a woman - if she's good or not. It is an attack on women's liberty."

He also argued that any doctor who performed these operations at state hospitals violated France's legal separation of church and state.

The church-state issue flared up in 2004 when France passed a law banning religious garb, notably headscarves, from state primary and secondary schools.

Since then, Abecassis said, some Muslims in France have been putting much more emphasis on certain values as a way of expressing their identity. "Today it's the two 'V's' - veil and virginity," he said. "It's a social phenomenon."

Abecassis defended the operations and said he helped patients who could not pay his 2500 euro fee. "This surgery gives them another chance," he said. "It's a rehabilitation."

Comments 1 - 47 of 47 |

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1. Comment #39709 by shemp333 on May 11, 2007 at 5:29 pm

 avatarThis is so sad. My contempt for religion seems to have no bounds. Not my fault. Religion is the disease, and reason is the cure.

Other Comments by shemp333

2. Comment #39710 by shemp333 on May 11, 2007 at 5:32 pm

 avatarI don't feel any shame. I won't apologize. When there ain't nowhere you can go. Running away from pain when you've been victimized. Tales from another broken home.
Green Day, "American Idiot"

Other Comments by shemp333

3. Comment #39712 by Jolly Wally on May 11, 2007 at 5:35 pm

I've got a better idea: lose your religion; become real.

Other Comments by Jolly Wally

4. Comment #39714 by melisande on May 11, 2007 at 5:48 pm

 avatarI've got a better idea: lose your religion; become real.

Like it's that easy.

Other Comments by melisande

5. Comment #39717 by HappyPrimate on May 11, 2007 at 6:07 pm

 avatarI wish there was a physical way to tell if a male was a virgin. Can you imagine if males had to account for their sexual activity or lack thereof at marriage? Frankly, I do not believe in marriage in any circumstance. It serves as a mechanism for a feeling of ownership of another person which is ghastly.

Other Comments by HappyPrimate

6. Comment #39718 by Bonzai on May 11, 2007 at 6:10 pm

 avatarThis kind of absurdity is an expression of patriarchal cultural value and sexism rather than religion per se.

Since the young women have to have sex with someone, there has to be a lot of young men having premaritial sex as well. But like in non Islamic cultures young men having premaritial sex is no a big deal among muslim even though it contravenes Islam as well.

Faking virginity is not a unique phenomenon among muslims and religious people. It is also common for Japanese young women to seek surgical restoration of their hymen so that they can pass themselves off as virgin on wedding night. I heard many Japanese women would spend a year abroad after university graduation ostensibly to study foreign language. While they are away they let themselves go sexually. They then go to Europe to "patch things up" before they go home.

Japanese culture is very sexist even though it is also very secular(Christmas is called "Santa Clause festival " in Japan)

On the bright side at least these muslim young women (and men) do have sex in spite of prohibition from Islam. It is an expression of their humanity even though in a somewhat twisted way. This proves that they are not just some mindless drones.

I agree that the whole idea is degrading to women. But it should also be noted that this kind of surgery are performed by doctors trained in Western scientific medicine, now what is their excuse?

Other Comments by Bonzai

7. Comment #39721 by Shuggy on May 11, 2007 at 6:12 pm

 avatarVery sad. Note that it isn't all religious. But the culture that prizes virginity has its roots in a religion. Are there cultures that prize virginity that don't? (I guess prizing virginity is really about guaranteeing fatherhood, so it's an aspect of patriarchy.)

Edit: the previous message was posted while I was writing.

We should maybe draw a distinction between the women who do it to fool their husbands into thinking they are virgins (and always have been), and those who do it to fool themselves that they are virgins "again". The first is practical, the second is self-deception. I think the second is sadder.

Other Comments by Shuggy

8. Comment #39725 by Bonzai on May 11, 2007 at 6:15 pm

 avatarI don't think these women do this to fool themselves.

Other Comments by Bonzai

9. Comment #39728 by Russell Blackford on May 11, 2007 at 6:32 pm

Religion is not the origin of the kind of male sexual jealousy that leads to the emphasis on virginity etc., but patriarchal cultural systems that make such a huge issue of it, and sex-obsessed religions that condemn "unchaste" behaviour by women by divine authority co-evolve.

Religion is not wholly to blame for the origin of such thinking, but it bears a huge part of the responsibility for the preservation of the most barbaric values to do with sex. Without religion, they would have little prospect of persisting in today's world. So without going overboard and branding religion as the root of all evil in sexual puritanism and barbarity, it's modern-day persistence is another reason to deplore the persistence of religion.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

10. Comment #39732 by Bonzai on May 11, 2007 at 6:45 pm

 avatarComment #39728 by Russell Blackford

Well Japan is a proof that even without religion patriarchal sexual value can still persist through other vehicles of cultural inculation.

The traditional Japanese gods were bisexual and very promiscuous. Japanese folk religion is certainly not prudish. Indeed I don't think most civilizations look to their gods and religions as the source of morality, sexual or otherwise. The Abrahamic religions are a anomaly. Incidentlly this is another argument against those who claim religion is necessary for ethics.

Other Comments by Bonzai

11. Comment #39740 by Ohnhai on May 11, 2007 at 7:47 pm

 avatarSo sad.

Especially the prevailing feeling that they have 'no choice' but to do this.

The truth is that they are unaware (or unwilling to accept its an option) that they do have a choice. THey can turn their back on their family and 'culture' and say 'sod you' I now live in Europe and I no longer have to put up with this. But sadly They dont believe they are strong enough to do this, because their entire lives they have has the notion drummed into them that they are weak, useless (save for housework and babies) and need a good strong Muslim Man to stand any chance of making it in the world.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not underestimating the strength is needs to break with everything you believe defines you. But it is a real option, its sad that so many fail to see it as such.

Other Comments by Ohnhai

12. Comment #39745 by stvlntin on May 11, 2007 at 8:34 pm

Bonzai

Having a hymen restored is not a common practice in Japan. Most Japanese men do not expect the women they marry to be virgins. It is an old fashioned idea in Japan, as it is in the west. According to my girlfriend, who is Japanese, only very traditional women would consider it.

Other Comments by stvlntin

13. Comment #39746 by Bonzai on May 11, 2007 at 8:38 pm

 avatarstvlntin,

Probably not any more. But I was told by a Japanese friend that it was common only 15 or 20 years ago.

Other Comments by Bonzai

14. Comment #39747 by Russell Blackford on May 11, 2007 at 8:41 pm

Bonzai, I don't know much about the cultural situation in Japan, but from what's been stated here you are correct, i.e. religion is not the only means by which some attitudes to women's sexuality persist. That's worth knowing. (Although I see that it's now being said above that it's a thing of the past.)

It would be fascinating (at least to me) if those who understand the situation in Japan better than I do could tell us a little bit more about its history and its context in present-day Japanese attitudes to sexuality. This fetishising of virginity - even if it's dying out - goes along with a lot of openness about sex and sexuality, so how does it all fit together (as it were)?

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

15. Comment #39750 by Shuggy on May 11, 2007 at 9:02 pm

 avatarBonzai said:
I don't think these women do this to fool themselves.

I was looking at this:
"I'm glad I had it done," said the woman, "I wanted to reconstruct part of my life, to reconstruct myself so that I could feel better about myself."

She seems to think she has really turned herself back into a virgin.

It's pretty tragic all round, since not only is virginity a state of mind (a raped woman may be more virginal than a nun), but its correlation with an intact hymen is partial at best.

Other Comments by Shuggy

16. Comment #39769 by Veronique on May 11, 2007 at 10:16 pm

 avatarHas it occurred to anyone that the desire for virgin women that has been embedded in monotheistic religions (and we know that monotheism constrains and marginalises women) may have something to do with male performance issues?

Like 'if she doesn't know what to expect, then she won't be able to judge me against previous sexual partners, because I am not sure that I am up to this. I can't hold on, I just blow'. This would be especially true in Islam where both sexes are supposed to be virgins prior to marriage. And masturbation is prohibited (yeah - sure!). If these women are to be married, I can actually understand why they would want to appear as virgins to their prospective husbands. This is cultural stuff as well apart from the religious overtones that could get them stoned to death as impure and damaged goods.

Out of all the blokes I had anything to do with, I could count on the fingers of one hand the ones that were actually worth the effort.

I am old now and sex plays no part in my life, but I was promiscuous (for many reasons as I am sure you will attribute) and I fondly remember very, very few of my partners.

I do recall my Japanese step-mother however. My father was absolutely delighted with her sexual openness and ingenuity (he married her when he was 64 years old and she was a 48 year old divorcee). They had known each other for, at least, 20 odd years since he went on sabbatical to Japan. I know she enlivened their sex life because he told me so. Japanese women are far more culturally skilled in the 'arts of love' than other cultures. A lovely lady, I am so sad they are both now dead.

Just a thought
V

Other Comments by Veronique

17. Comment #39772 by Bonzai on May 11, 2007 at 10:47 pm

 avatarThe desire for virgins is a fixture of all male centered societies. It is probably true that it embodies some kind of performance anxiety, it can also be a fetish to deflower an innocent virgin. The Japanese basically turn that kind of fantasy into an industry. This is a "Freudian" way of looking at it.

Another way would be a "Marxist" view of economical determinism.

It is supply and demand. Female sexuality is basically treated as a commodity in patriarchal societies. Since virgins are more scarce it enhances the male's status for acquiring one.

From the women's side there is also a vested interest to be complicit in promoting virgins.

In deeply sexist societies women often have few options to economical survival besides selling sex. In such societies marriage is actually just a respectible form of prostitution with better benefits and status.

Married women are like unionized sex workers while prostitutes are like low wage temps. There is a vested interest for the union to keep supply of their commodity(their labour) scarce so they can command a higher price. Women who are consdered sexually loose ("sluts") are most hated by other women instead of men. They are hated because they flood the market with cheap goods, thereby depressing the price for other women. The promotion of virgins has the effect of raising the bar of getting into the union, and thereby making the members more prestigious. It is like requiring an A average to get into med school even though family medicine is not really rocket science. Virgin fetish works in the interest of those women who are already in the union or hoping to get into it.

I cannot provide any source for my "Marxist" theory because I made it up. But I think it kind of makes sense.

Other Comments by Bonzai

18. Comment #39777 by MrEmpirical on May 11, 2007 at 10:59 pm

While we're tossing around piss-weak anecdotal evidence, my friend's girlfriend is Japanese and apparently they go off like a jackhammer in the sack. Oh, and he's black, so yeah...

Other Comments by MrEmpirical

19. Comment #39785 by Goodwithwood on May 11, 2007 at 11:19 pm

 avatarWOW! I never even heard of such a thing till now. I understand that some Muslim cultures "circumcise" women buy cutting away their clitoris. ....WTF?
Personally I don't feel sexually satisfied till I have made my girl climax. Many times this requires a clitoris.
In my rejection of religion I have rejected irrational cultural traditions just as vagariously as religious dogma. There's not much difference. Question every thing.
Speaking of traditional religious non-sense, I want my foreskin back, dammit. Am I missing something like a circumcised clit. I mean......Why? Oh why would they cut me up when I had no say in the decision?

GWW????

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

20. Comment #39791 by Big T on May 12, 2007 at 12:08 am

Comment #39769 by Veronique: So men are (with very few exceptions) not worth the effort, because we can't perform up to your standards. Thanks for the affirmation. You are so sweet.

Other Comments by Big T

21. Comment #39794 by petermun on May 12, 2007 at 12:32 am

Whoops - has this transformed into the Cosmo site - real evidence of transubstantiation? Wow.

Other Comments by petermun

22. Comment #39797 by Richard Morgan on May 12, 2007 at 12:50 am

Apparently some western women also resort to surgery to give people (men?) the impression that they have large breasts.And others have the skin on their faces stretched to con people into believing that they are younger than their real age.
Hymens, breasts, buttocks, tummies, noses, eye-lids.....are all these surgical manipulations the result of monotheistic religions?
Don't laugh - perhaps they are, somewhere along the line.
But evolutionary forces are also at work there. Think about it.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

23. Comment #39802 by Veronique on May 12, 2007 at 1:21 am

 avatar20. Comment #39791 by Big T

Sorry. Please don't take my comments personally. It may well have been my choice of transient partners!! and based on my idea of sexual attractiveness:-) Please don't take my comments out of context. Certainly please do not apply them to yourself. I was making my own and valid observations based on my own sexually active life. Nothing to do with you. Stop sounding so bitter.

I have no idea who you are, so how could I possibly be talking about you:-) Don't you think you are being a little over sensitive? How many of your partners do you remember? Can you recall all their names? Or have you been monogamous all your life? That's easier but I know few people like that. You may be the first:-)

22. Comment #39797 by Richard Morgan

Not sure from where this stuff emanates. Maybe less to do with monotheism and more to do with Cosmo and the marketing elite in the first world. It does seem to smack of women trying to remain sexually attractive and competitive. That's pretty sad and indicates a lack of sense of self and confidence in innate qualities. But then, I see lots of 35 to 45 year old women who have yet to come to terms with getting older and appear to have little in the way of internal mental resources. It may well be a result of subscribing to an external view of themselves in mirrors and not developing any particular substance in their lives. And that is what Cosmo is all about - skin deep Paris Hilton type mentalities. I know men like this as well. A shallowness has risen. Very sad.

I am now very lucky, I am invisible, I am 63: no one notices me any more when I walk down the street. I feel so light, I waft along un-noticed. Such freedom, I can't even express it to you.

Bonzai

I think you may well be spot on. I can't subject it either to good critical analysis but you resonate with me. Don't forget the coutesans who commanded a lot of dosh or other benefits. Not just low paid temps. I could add more (I did, but lost the post). I may try again later.

That's me for tonight
V

Other Comments by Veronique

24. Comment #39815 by jonecc on May 12, 2007 at 3:07 am

Note to Americans and Australians:

That was great - like daytime TV for the educated. Can you schedule the next one when us Europeans aren't asleep?

Other Comments by jonecc

25. Comment #39816 by Duff on May 12, 2007 at 3:18 am

Veronique,
What a wonderful thought, men wanting women to be virgins so as not to be able to judge their prowess. I suspect you are probably right. And if that upsets the men, then they should consider upping their skills and becoming one of the men who clever women like you would remember.

Other Comments by Duff

26. Comment #39822 by jonecc on May 12, 2007 at 3:41 am

Actually, I think the preoccupation with female virginity is mainly about property and inheritance.

In a patriarchal society, fathers want to pass their assets down to their sons, but they need to know that their sons are their sons, therefore they are keen to see evidence that their wives haven't had sex with anyone else. The reason why male virginity is less of an issue is that in a localised society where everyone knows everyone else no-one can be in any doubt who the mother is.

This preoccupation predates monotheistic religion, and occurs throughout the world, because all patriarchal societies face the same problem.

In Ayaan Hirsi Ali's book Infidel, there is a harrowing description of Somali girls being raped after the breakdown of civil society, then being abandoned by their families because they are no longer virgins. I read the book a few months ago, but the horror of it lingers.

Other Comments by jonecc

27. Comment #39837 by Richard Morgan on May 12, 2007 at 4:40 am

Oh dear. Oh deary me.
Haven't any of you guys read Richard Dawkins' other books? Like his stuff on that much ignored subject - "evolution"?
Now, I'm not an expert, but I can see the evolutionary "advantages" for a species where the male is attracted to (apparently) healthy young females, probably capable of being inseminated, giving birth to, and suckling those "enveloppes charnelles" that will have the responsability of being home to his genes.
Also nature is full of ingenious examples where the male has "discovered" methods for preventing "his" female being inseminated by other males. And I would have thought that insisting on virginity is just another of those evolutionary tricks.
Non?
Talking about Cosmopolitan on a Richard Dawkins site is rather missing the point. Or perhaps not - from somebody for whom being "invisible" is a happy state.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

28. Comment #39839 by Luthien on May 12, 2007 at 4:50 am

 avatarVeronique,

ignore the "bitter people". I suspect you are right that a lot of men out there are not worth the effort. Not because they are not good people, but because they are trailing the baggage of their theistic and cultural expectations of women. When it became apparent that I was going to break up with one guy (from a catholic background), he told me that I should be ashamed of myself for sleeping with him. I think he had some sort of twisted view that there should be no going back for me, or that I would be "damaged goods" for anyone else (I have heard stories from friends about the all male Catholic run grammer schools, and how teachers have explicitly told their students that women are "damaged goods" in these circumstances). The only men worth the effort are the rational men, who are truely capable of seeing women as their equal, and not somehow their "property" to be protected from other men. This notion that a partner is your "property" is the primary reason for jealousy in any relationship. If you believe that a person stays with you because of their own free will, you will not be paranoid about every other man (or women, I have seen women make the "property" mistake too) who looks their way.

I think the obsession with cosmetic surgery probably ties in with what Bonzai was saying about women marketing themselves as a comodity, although there is of course a strong evolutionary drive to make the most of your appearence to attract the opposite sex (as usual, this is more complicated than just having "one reason", and many people have cosmetic surgery because of a personality disorder).

Other Comments by Luthien

29. Comment #39844 by Luthien on May 12, 2007 at 5:03 am

 avatar
27. Comment #39837 by Richard Morgan on May 12, 2007 at 4:40 am

Talking about Cosmopolitan on a Richard Dawkins site is rather missing the point. Or perhaps not - from somebody for whom being "invisible" is a happy state.


I can see you have never had the misfortune to incurr the crude attentions of a large group of males, who's reaction to a young woman is to engage in verbal abuse that is both sexual and physically threatening. I would imagine that the vast majority of women would find "invisible" a happy state in these circumstances.

(Go read "Tess of the d'Urbervilles" if you feel you need a woman's eye view of why this "invisibility" might be desired. She cuts off her eyebrows at one point because covering her head is not enough to guarantee her safety.)

Other Comments by Luthien

30. Comment #39847 by MrEmpirical on May 12, 2007 at 5:17 am

Richard Morgan makes a good point about how the male insistence on virginal wives can be attributed to evolutionary forces. I think, in the case of re-hymenated Muslim women, it is a case of an evolutionary force being manifested as a religious/cultural practice.

Other Comments by MrEmpirical

31. Comment #39848 by PaulJ on May 12, 2007 at 5:17 am

 avatarDespite any evolutionary reasoning behind an insistence on virginal wives, what I find depressing about this business is the hypocrisy of it. The fact that these women willingly undergo expensive and no doubt unpleasant surgery in secret, in order to deceive their prospective husbands, indicates one of two things:

1. These women are truly oppressed. They willingly and knowingly disobey the rules of their religion, in order not to be, at best, cast out from their society, or at worst, killed.

2. Or, they are completely in denial about the utter nonsense of their religion -- do they really believe that the surgery somehow alters their past?

Whichever of the above applies in a particular case, the implications are abhorrent in the extreme.

Other Comments by PaulJ

32. Comment #39947 by Sri Syadasti on May 12, 2007 at 11:21 am

 avatarThere is a very simple solution to the problem of parental certainty and inheritance: matrilinealism.

It's a shame that very few cultures have thought of it.

Other Comments by Sri Syadasti

33. Comment #40026 by Veronique on May 12, 2007 at 6:10 pm

 avatar27. Comment #39837 by Richard Morgan

Hehehehe...

I think that for every ingenious method of the male to prevent 'his' female from being impregnated by other males, there must be very many males without partners who are just as ingenious at thwarting him.

I have seen several wildlife shows where the younger males band together (they have been turfed already from the group in which they were brought up). Some of the males create a ruckus that grabs the attention of the dominant male and the other ones sneak into the fold, do the business and race off again. Some of the primates resort to this as do the elephant seals. There must be heaps more.

Cunning eh? Just gotta get your genes out there somehow:-)

Ain't life grand.
V

Other Comments by Veronique

34. Comment #40031 by Russell Blackford on May 12, 2007 at 6:35 pm

I don't doubt that male sexual jealousy enhances reproductive fitness, or did so in the environment of evolutionary adaptation. Yeah, maybe you were more likely to pass down your genes if you could manange to have sex with women who hadn't done it with too many other blokes and could be kept away from them. The more you can keep a woman's gametes to yourself - and keep them away from the semen of your pals Og, Gog, and Magog - the better, from the viewpoint of reproductive fitness.

But two points. First, we see these things that probably had some adaptive role being exaggerated to absurd extremes by culture. Even if I can understand a bit of male possessiveness as something programmed into our psychology, we see it being pandered to and magnified to crazy lengths - the way Islam deals with it being only the most obviously crazy. (And it's not just sexual jealousy that culture gets hold of and takes to crazy extremes. The fetishation of ridiculously narrow waists (Victorian England), ridiculously tiny feet (pre-modern China), ridiculously large breasts (contemporary US) is equally crazy, even though these cultural fetishes are all based sexual differences that it may, I suppose, be natural for men to pay some attention to. As with Islam's sexual rules, it's like a cultural version of the peacock's tail.)

Second, and more fundamentally, even if we have inherited certain psychological tendencies from our ancestors, that does not mean that they make us happy now (or even that they made our ancestors happy, as opposed to making them more likely to pass down their genes).

In the case of male sexual jealousy, I think it's more something for us men to try to repudiate and overcome than something to be proud of and build elaborate cultural institutions on. What sensible male in the modern world is interested in teaching sex to some virgin? Everyone has to start somewhere, with teenage fumblings and whatever, but you get beyond that. Give me a sexually experienced woman who knows what she's doing any day.

Other Comments by Russell Blackford

35. Comment #40035 by Bonzai on May 12, 2007 at 7:05 pm

 avatarI think the adaptive origin of male jealousy is pure speculation.I don't know of any evidence which suggests that the cave man was jealous and possessive of "his" women. He was probably more likely to mate and took off rather than sticking around to form a stable relationship.

You see, you can also argue that an unattached male has more chance spreading his seeds and therefore jealousy works against evolution!

Without a clear formulation of "selective advantage" in a specific setting the hypothesis that such and such a trait confers evolutionary advantages is untestable. It can be intepreted with hindsight to fit any data. Vulgar Darwinism which seeks to explain all human experience and behaviour in terms of some kind of vague evolutionary mechanism is more like religion than science.

Not every triat has an evolutionary explanation (I mean "evolution" is a Darwinian sense)There can be other explanations for cultural patterns such as economics and geography etc. It seems that these factors play at least as strong a role in shaping social and human behaviour as biology. The role that biology plays is probably no more than broadly constraining the range of human responses in a given context. That realization alone usually does not provide any deep insight to a concrete question, like where does the desire for virgin come from, or why do humans kill each others in wars?

Here is an excellent critique of vulgar Darwinism.

http://www.kenanmalik.com/essays/fallacy.html

Other Comments by Bonzai

36. Comment #40209 by catchy_nick on May 13, 2007 at 9:19 pm

Comment #39816 by Duff on May 12, 2007 at 3:18 am

"....then they should consider upping their skills and becoming one of the men who clever women like you would remember."

I'm just curious what kind of "exercises" men with sub-par bed skills or small penises should be doing to "up their skills" so the clever women would remember them?
I'm sorry but that was a very ignorant thing to say. Hopefully your response will not make baseless judgments of my own bed-skills which will make you sound even dumber.
The only interpretation that would make sense of what you said would be that men should make more of an effort trying to understand female sexuality and sexual anatomy, since men almost always end up climaxing (it ain't that hard to get a dude off) but not all of them can even tell if the woman did or not. Reciprocity in sexual encounters could arguably be a moral obligation and I agree, men should definitely put some more work into it. And also I'm curious as to what the "cleverness" of the woman has to do with any of this? I'm not attacking your intelligence here but a mere suggestion, try to articulate your statement a little better next time. Thanks.

Other Comments by catchy_nick

37. Comment #40210 by davyB on May 13, 2007 at 9:32 pm

"He would not accept a non-virgin."

The woman knows or assumes that if she were discovered not to be a virgin, the man would reject her. In other words, she chooses to deceive him. The article says she is not a practicing Muslim. She is deceiving and marrying the man because of family and cultural pressure. It is her family that has religion, not her. She doesn't need to "lose her religion." She needs to lose her religious family and fiance. That's probably even harder.

Other Comments by davyB

38. Comment #40227 by Richard Morgan on May 13, 2007 at 11:24 pm

Russell Blackford:
Give me a sexually experienced woman who knows what she's doing any day.

Give you.....?
Err...OK.
Where do you want her delivered?

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39. Comment #40234 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:01 am

 avatarVeronique wrote, Out of all the blokes I had anything to do with, I could count on the fingers of one hand the ones that were actually worth the effort.
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What an interesting angle! Being just a little younger than you, but also having had been extremely sexually experienced when younger, I agree. Most men could not hold a candle--or a penis--to the pleasures that I myself was able to give me via masturbation--out of dozens I would say about 4 were worth remembering. If a woman is not sexually experienced like we are, then they would have nothing to compare one sexual experience with another. Good job, V!!!

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40. Comment #40236 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:15 am

 avatarLuthien wrote: "The only men worth the effort are the rational men, who are truely capable of seeing women as their equal, and not somehow their "property" to be protected from other men."
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After awhile--once I had significant carnal knowledge with the opposite sex--I devised a rule of thumb that any man with whom I would consider having sex would have to prove to me that he sees me as a human who happens to be female, and that he regards himself as a human who happens to be male.

But, I must say, that since the pickings were pretty slim in my desired category, I often settled for men who regarded me as half-human, half-woman!

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41. Comment #40240 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:37 am

 avatar32. Comment #39947 by Sri Syadasti on May 12, 2007 at 11:21 am
There is a very simple solution to the problem of parental certainty and inheritance: matrilinealism.

It's a shame that very few cultures have thought of it.
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Very interesting also. Makes you wonder if there could be any other reasons why it is not followed?

When I get truly discouraged at male mistreatment of females, I get a chuckle from realizing that it was the dominate male culture which gave us the technology allowing the liberation of women.

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42. Comment #40241 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:41 am

 avatarLuthien wrote, I can see you have never had the misfortune to incurr the crude attentions of a large group of males, who's reaction to a young woman is to engage in verbal abuse that is both sexual and physically threatening. I would imagine that the vast majority of women would find "invisible" a happy state in these circumstances.

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Brilliant!

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43. Comment #40242 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 1:56 am

 avatarBonzai wrote, I think the adaptive origin of male jealousy is pure speculation.I don't know of any evidence which suggests that the cave man was jealous and possessive of "his" women. He was probably more likely to mate and took off rather than sticking around to form a stable relationship.
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Unfortunately, I cannot remember the study in particular, but the conclusion was that the predominance of red in many tribal rituals was because red stood for menstrual blood. For women in the tribe to keep their men from wandering, the females would menstruate collectively--which has something to do with the uncanny ability of women menstruating when smelling the menstrual blood of another. After awhile, just the color red did the same thing. Perhaps, someone else knows of this study and can elaborate more on it. I suppose that collective menstruating kept the males from wandering because they were waiting when the women would be sexually available?

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44. Comment #40243 by Logicel on May 14, 2007 at 2:17 am

 avatar20. Comment #39791 by Big T on May 12, 2007 at 12:08 am
Comment #39769 by Veronique: So men are (with very few exceptions) not worth the effort, because we can't perform up to your standards. Thanks for the affirmation. You are so sweet.
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Would you rather have us lie, so you could never have the opportunity to learn how to please a woman sexually? Any man has the ability to please a woman sexually. But of course if her clitoris is lopped off, then it is a moot point for the most part.

EDIT: Also please note that both Veronique and I came of the sexual age during a time when though the quantity was available--because of the birth control pill--the quality was still dismal because of the ignorance that men had concerning female sexual pleasure. Such ignorance has largely been lessened in western civilization.

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45. Comment #40246 by Bonzai on May 14, 2007 at 2:37 am

 avatar>>Unfortunately, I cannot remember the study in particular, but the conclusion was that the predominance of red in many tribal rituals was because red stood for menstrual blood. For women in the tribe to keep their men from wandering, the females would menstruate collectively--which has something to do with the uncanny ability of women menstruating when smelling the menstrual blood of another. After awhile, just the color red did the same thing. Perhaps, someone else knows of this study and can elaborate more on it. I suppose that collective menstruating kept the males from wandering because they were waiting when the women would be sexually available?<<

I think it is from a book called the naked ape. While entertaining and sometimes thought provoking scholarly opinions seem to be that you should take it with a big grain of salt.

Actually collective menstruation is a manifestation of a phenomenon called synchronicity. The origin of this seems to be lie in some deep mathematical law governing complex, non linear systems rather than in Darwin. You can find other manifestations of synchronicity in non biological context such as photons in a laser beam and chemical systems.

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46. Comment #40248 by BaronOchs on May 14, 2007 at 2:58 am

 avatarthis thread's becoming a good education:-)

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47. Comment #40768 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 11:41 pm

 avatarSo dear Baron,

What else do you want to know from us old chooks? :-) We were the naughty ones of our era and learnt lots.

Bonzai

I read Desmond Morris in my twenties. He was one of few who wrote back then. Haven't read him for a long time, but he's been overtaken by more thoughful and well researched works. I seem to remember some fairly outrageous conclusions that he postulated. More a pound of salt I think:-)

Regards
V

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