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Monday, May 14, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document One side can be wrong

by Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne, Guardian Unlimited

Thanks to Ranjani for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,,1559743,00.html

See also "One side can be wrong" on edge.org

Accepting 'intelligent design' in science classrooms would have disastrous consequences, warn Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne

It sounds so reasonable, doesn't it? Such a modest proposal. Why not teach "both sides" and let the children decide for themselves? As President Bush said, "You're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, the answer is yes." At first hearing, everything about the phrase "both sides" warms the hearts of educators like ourselves.
One of us spent years as an Oxford tutor and it was his habit to choose controversial topics for the students' weekly essays. They were required to go to the library, read about both sides of an argument, give a fair account of both, and then come to a balanced judgment in their essay. The call for balance, by the way, was always tempered by the maxim, "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly half way between. It is possible for one side simply to be wrong."

As teachers, both of us have found that asking our students to analyse controversies is of enormous value to their education. What is wrong, then, with teaching both sides of the alleged controversy between evolution and creationism or "intelligent design" (ID)? And, by the way, don't be fooled by the disingenuous euphemism. There is nothing new about ID. It is simply creationism camouflaged with a new name to slip (with some success, thanks to loads of tax-free money and slick public-relations professionals) under the radar of the US Constitution's mandate for separation between church and state.

Why, then, would two lifelong educators and passionate advocates of the "both sides" style of teaching join with essentially all biologists in making an exception of the alleged controversy between creation and evolution? What is wrong with the apparently sweet reasonableness of "it is only fair to teach both sides"? The answer is simple. This is not a scientific controversy at all. And it is a time-wasting distraction because evolutionary science, perhaps more than any other major science, is bountifully endowed with genuine controversy.

Among the controversies that students of evolution commonly face, these are genuinely challenging and of great educational value: neutralism versus selectionism in molecular evolution; adaptationism; group selection; punctuated equilibrium; cladism; "evo-devo"; the "Cambrian Explosion"; mass extinctions; interspecies competition; sympatric speciation; sexual selection; the evolution of sex itself; evolutionary psychology; Darwinian medicine and so on. The point is that all these controversies, and many more, provide fodder for fascinating and lively argument, not just in essays but for student discussions late at night.

Intelligent design is not an argument of the same character as these controversies. It is not a scientific argument at all, but a religious one. It might be worth discussing in a class on the history of ideas, in a philosophy class on popular logical fallacies, or in a comparative religion class on origin myths from around the world. But it no more belongs in a biology class than alchemy belongs in a chemistry class, phlogiston in a physics class or the stork theory in a sex education class. In those cases, the demand for equal time for "both theories" would be ludicrous. Similarly, in a class on 20th-century European history, who would demand equal time for the theory that the Holocaust never happened?

So, why are we so sure that intelligent design is not a real scientific theory, worthy of "both sides" treatment? Isn't that just our personal opinion? It is an opinion shared by the vast majority of professional biologists, but of course science does not proceed by majority vote among scientists. Why isn't creationism (or its incarnation as intelligent design) just another scientific controversy, as worthy of scientific debate as the dozen essay topics we listed above? Here's why.

If ID really were a scientific theory, positive evidence for it, gathered through research, would fill peer-reviewed scientific journals. This doesn't happen. It isn't that editors refuse to publish ID research. There simply isn't any ID research to publish. Its advocates bypass normal scientific due process by appealing directly to the non-scientific public and - with great shrewdness - to the government officials they elect.

The argument the ID advocates put, such as it is, is always of the same character. Never do they offer positive evidence in favour of intelligent design. All we ever get is a list of alleged deficiencies in evolution. We are told of "gaps" in the fossil record. Or organs are stated, by fiat and without supporting evidence, to be "irreducibly complex": too complex to have evolved by natural selection.

In all cases there is a hidden (actually they scarcely even bother to hide it) "default" assumption that if Theory A has some difficulty in explaining Phenomenon X, we must automatically prefer Theory B without even asking whether Theory B (creationism in this case) is any better at explaining it. Note how unbalanced this is, and how it gives the lie to the apparent reasonableness of "let's teach both sides". One side is required to produce evidence, every step of the way. The other side is never required to produce one iota of evidence, but is deemed to have won automatically, the moment the first side encounters a difficulty - the sort of difficulty that all sciences encounter every day, and go to work to solve, with relish.

What, after all, is a gap in the fossil record? It is simply the absence of a fossil which would otherwise have documented a particular evolutionary transition. The gap means that we lack a complete cinematic record of every step in the evolutionary process. But how incredibly presumptuous to demand a complete record, given that only a minuscule proportion of deaths result in a fossil anyway.

The equivalent evidential demand of creationism would be a complete cinematic record of God's behaviour on the day that he went to work on, say, the mammalian ear bones or the bacterial flagellum - the small, hair-like organ that propels mobile bacteria. Not even the most ardent advocate of intelligent design claims that any such divine videotape will ever become available.

Biologists, on the other hand, can confidently claim the equivalent "cinematic" sequence of fossils for a very large number of evolutionary transitions. Not all, but very many, including our own descent from the bipedal ape Australopithecus. And - far more telling - not a single authentic fossil has ever been found in the "wrong" place in the evolutionary sequence. Such an anachronistic fossil, if one were ever unearthed, would blow evolution out of the water.

As the great biologist J B S Haldane growled, when asked what might disprove evolution: "Fossil rabbits in the pre-Cambrian." Evolution, like all good theories, makes itself vulnerable to disproof. Needless to say, it has always come through with flying colours.

Similarly, the claim that something - say the bacterial flagellum - is too complex to have evolved by natural selection is alleged, by a lamentably common but false syllogism, to support the "rival" intelligent design theory by default. This kind of default reasoning leaves completely open the possibility that, if the bacterial flagellum is too complex to have evolved, it might also be too complex to have been created. And indeed, a moment's thought shows that any God capable of creating a bacterial flagellum (to say nothing of a universe) would have to be a far more complex, and therefore statistically improbable, entity than the bacterial flagellum (or universe) itself - even more in need of an explanation than the object he is alleged to have created.

If complex organisms demand an explanation, so does a complex designer. And it's no solution to raise the theologian's plea that God (or the Intelligent Designer) is simply immune to the normal demands of scientific explanation. To do so would be to shoot yourself in the foot. You cannot have it both ways. Either ID belongs in the science classroom, in which case it must submit to the discipline required of a scientific hypothesis. Or it does not, in which case get it out of the science classroom and send it back into the church, where it belongs.

In fact, the bacterial flagellum is certainly not too complex to have evolved, nor is any other living structure that has ever been carefully studied. Biologists have located plausible series of intermediates, using ingredients to be found elsewhere in living systems. But even if some particular case were found for which biologists could offer no ready explanation, the important point is that the "default" logic of the creationists remains thoroughly rotten.

There is no evidence in favour of intelligent design: only alleged gaps in the completeness of the evolutionary account, coupled with the "default" fallacy we have identified. And, while it is inevitably true that there are incompletenesses in evolutionary science, the positive evidence for the fact of evolution is truly massive, made up of hundreds of thousands of mutually corroborating observations. These come from areas such as geology, paleontology, comparative anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, ethology, biogeography, embryology and - increasingly nowadays - molecular genetics.

The weight of the evidence has become so heavy that opposition to the fact of evolution is laughable to all who are acquainted with even a fraction of the published data. Evolution is a fact: as much a fact as plate tectonics or the heliocentric solar system.

Why, finally, does it matter whether these issues are discussed in science classes? There is a case for saying that it doesn't - that biologists shouldn't get so hot under the collar. Perhaps we should just accept the popular demand that we teach ID as well as evolution in science classes. It would, after all, take only about 10 minutes to exhaust the case for ID, then we could get back to teaching real science and genuine controversy.

Tempting as this is, a serious worry remains. The seductive "let's teach the controversy" language still conveys the false, and highly pernicious, idea that there really are two sides. This would distract students from the genuinely important and interesting controversies that enliven evolutionary discourse. Worse, it would hand creationism the only victory it realistically aspires to. Without needing to make a single good point in any argument, it would have won the right for a form of supernaturalism to be recognised as an authentic part of science. And that would be the end of science education in America.

Arguments worth having ...

The "Cambrian Explosion"


Although the fossil record shows that the first multicellular animals lived about 640m years ago, the diversity of species was low until about 530m years ago. At that time there was a sudden explosion of many diverse marine species, including the first appearance of molluscs, arthropods, echinoderms and vertebrates. "Sudden" here is used in the geological sense; the "explosion" occurred over a period of 10m to 30m years, which is, after all, comparable to the time taken to evolve most of the great radiations of mammals. This rapid diversification raises fascinating questions; explanations include the evolution of organisms with hard parts (which aid fossilisation), the evolutionary "discovery" of eyes, and the development of new genes that allowed parts of organisms to evolve independently.

The evolutionary basis of human behaviour

The field of evolutionary psychology (once called "sociobiology") maintains that many universal traits of human behaviour (especially sexual behaviour), as well as differences between individuals and between ethnic groups, have a genetic basis. These traits and differences are said to have evolved in our ancestors via natural selection. There is much controversy about these claims, largely because it is hard to reconstruct the evolutionary forces that acted on our ancestors, and it is unethical to do genetic experiments on modern humans.

Sexual versus natural selection

Although evolutionists agree that adaptations invariably result from natural selection, there are many traits, such as the elaborate plumage of male birds and size differences between the sexes in many species, that are better explained by "sexual selection": selection based on members of one sex (usually females) preferring to mate with members of the other sex that show certain desirable traits. Evolutionists debate how many features of animals have resulted from sexual as opposed to natural selection; some, like Darwin himself, feel that many physical features differentiating human "races" resulted from sexual selection.

The target of natural selection

Evolutionists agree that natural selection usually acts on genes in organisms - individuals carrying genes that give them a reproductive or survival advantage over others will leave more descendants, gradually changing the genetic composition of a species. This is called "individual selection". But some evolutionists have proposed that selection can act at higher levels as well: on populations (group selection), or even on species themselves (species selection). The relative importance of individual versus these higher order forms of selection is a topic of lively debate.

Natural selection versus genetic drift

Natural selection is a process that leads to the replacement of one gene by another in a predictable way. But there is also a "random" evolutionary process called genetic drift, which is the genetic equivalent of coin-tossing. Genetic drift leads to unpredictable changes in the frequencies of genes that don't make much difference to the adaptation of their carriers, and can cause evolution by changing the genetic composition of populations. Many features of DNA are said to have evolved by genetic drift. Evolutionary geneticists disagree about the importance of selection versus drift in explaining features of organisms and their DNA. All evolutionists agree that genetic drift can't explain adaptive evolution. But not all evolution is adaptive.

Further reading

www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc
User-friendly guide to evolution

www.simonyi.ox.ac.uk/dawkins/jacNR.pdf
Critique of Intelligent Design movement, published in New Republic

Climbing Mount Improbable
Richard Dawkins (illustrations by Lalla Ward), Penguin 1997

Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design
Barbara C Forrest and Paul R Gross, Oxford University Press, 2003

Richard Dawkins is Charles Simonyi professor of the public understanding of science at Oxford University, and Jerry Coyne is a professor in the department of ecology and evolution at the University of Chicago

Richard Dawkins' book 'The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life' is published by Phoenix in paperback today priced £9.99.

What did you think of this article? Mail your responses to life@guardian.co.uk and include your name and address.

Comments 1 - 38 of 38 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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1. Comment #40707 by carnitine on May 14, 2007 at 6:30 pm

Brilliant as usual. This reminds me that I need to read "Climbing Mount Improbable." Shame about the 8 books waiting in line to read already. I'll get to it some day.

Other Comments by carnitine

2. Comment #40709 by Veronique on May 14, 2007 at 6:40 pm

 avatarRichard

This article was published September 1, 2005. I couldn't find the comment thread in the Guardian.
Do you recall what reaction there was to it? In fact, do you recall reactions anything like what you are getting now to any one of your previous books?

It's not that you are really saying anything different in TGD from what you have said throughout your other books.

TGD is more like a concentrated collation of what you have been saying for years (with other bits thrown in, of course, and a decided focus on topic).

Having said that, I am pleased with the storm that has been raised by all of you who have and are still writing about the mass delusion we call religion.

Thank you for doing that and don't stop please. BTW, The Root of all Evil will be airing on Compass this coming Sunday in Australia. Compass is the only TV programme on our ABC that approaches anything like a religious programme. It is very secular in its approach to religious issues and well worth watching. Unfortunately our public broadcaster commands only about 8% of our TV viewing population. Never mind. It's airing and that's good!

Cheers
V

Other Comments by Veronique

3. Comment #40713 by flyingscot on May 14, 2007 at 7:01 pm

 avatarAbsolutely correct, the science classroom is not the place for ID nonsense.

I wonder if they would like Bunsen burners for their Candlemas!

Other Comments by flyingscot

4. Comment #40757 by Goodwithwood on May 14, 2007 at 10:47 pm

 avatarWhile we are fending off the teaching of creationism in public schools the creatinists are going through the back door with "school vouchers". This is the new trend of state govrnments paying parents to put their kids in private schools. Because the tuition isn't payed in full only the privileged and the ones willing to do anything to censor evolution take this option. Open your eyes.

GWW

Other Comments by Goodwithwood

5. Comment #40759 by bhima on May 14, 2007 at 11:05 pm

Oooh...anyone know any more info on the upcoming debate between Harris and Hedges? That will be a freakin' awesome debate.

Other Comments by bhima

6. Comment #40762 by BAEOZ on May 14, 2007 at 11:22 pm

 avatar"Let's start with how life got started."

Trolling devolved?
Abiogenesis is a separate theory to evolution. How life got started is immaterial to how evolution functions. I'm pretty sure you know this and are just trying to be a pain.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

7. Comment #40763 by Teapot_Believer on May 14, 2007 at 11:23 pm

 avatarI couldn't agree more with these guys: a scientific theory like Evolution undergoes painstaking scrutiny. So far it has not been disproved. If ID is to be considered as such so as to be included in a biology class, it must also go through the same process with the same scrutiny level.

However, I believe that the best way to demolish creationism and ID should be based on the principles that sustain inerrancy, the belief that the Bible or Qu'ran is absolutely right on "scientific" matters. How do they know it is right? Because it is the word of God. If the tenets supporting inerrancy are demolished, the whole religious building crumbles to the ground. I don't know whether someone has already done this, but what I do know is that this endeavor is more scholarly than scientific and needs to be attended to by people like secular philosophers.

Other Comments by Teapot_Believer

8. Comment #40766 by BAEOZ on May 14, 2007 at 11:25 pm

 avatar"Natural selection involves merely the shuffling, rearrangement and degeneration of existing genetic information, whereas evolution requires encyclopaedic quantities of new information to be produced (over time) by unintelligent, natural processes—information coding for new types of organs, limbs, physiologies, etc."
You are a liar if you say that after reading any biology text worth it's ink. Again, you're just being a pain.

Other Comments by BAEOZ

9. Comment #40770 by roach on May 14, 2007 at 11:43 pm

I'm very much hope we learn how life started on this planet. I've read that there are a number of hypotheses. But we can't postulate that God was responsible for the creation of life. It explains nothing and goes straight to an infinite regress. If you say "god did it" you are postulating eternal and infinitely complex life to explain the origin of life on Earth. What kind of sense does that make? NONE. Because you now have to explain how God came to be. It is not an ultimate explanation.

Other Comments by roach

10. Comment #40777 by Philip1978 on May 15, 2007 at 12:38 am

 avatarDevolved, This is getting beyond silly, please provide the evidence that it was your god and not another one that happened to be passing by at that critical moment. Why is it yours got the intellectual property rights to the universe. That's all I want, proof! If you mention the bible you lose tens points!

Why all this ridiculous complexity involved with proving its your god, why not simply pop up and yell, "Yes, that was me, I did it"!

Your god cannot be tested so how do you then prove it was him/her/it, the answer "faith" and that holds no weight whatsoever. Faith is imaginary and by all accounts so is your god so how then does this have anything to do with the creation of the world?

So if you could kindly ask your god to pop his/her/its head around the door of a science lab and agree to have the "magic" tested to provide us with new methods of creating billions of life forms and knowing about their every move and thought etc. I and the rest of the scientific world will gladly go along with it all and actually give your god a bit more attention.

Be good to hear from you, Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

11. Comment #40797 by Enblomst on May 15, 2007 at 2:33 am

Indeed, the origin of the first self-reproducing system is recognized by many scientists as an unsolved problem for evolution, and thus evidence for a Creator.


Hey guys, give devolved a break, the logic is pretty watertight if you just think hard enough about it. Here is another issue science have to deal with:

The problem of how gravity manifests itself is also a mystery for scientists. This clearly indicates that it is the hand of the Judeo-Christian god that pulls everything down to the center of the earth. I will call this "the gravitational hand of god theory" and demand that it is taught alongside the theory of gravity i physics classes.

Other Comments by Enblomst

12. Comment #40805 by mmurray on May 15, 2007 at 2:58 am

 avatarThanks for the alert about the Root of All Evil
Veronique. I don't usually watch Compass but I will this weekend :-)

I was suprised to see the Guardian posting something by Richard but now I see it is an old post.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

13. Comment #40814 by Philip1978 on May 15, 2007 at 3:20 am

 avatarEnblomst are you joking or being serious? I only ask as I made a howling mistake in a post once and do not want to do it again!

If you are being serious, here goes, I merely ask for evidence, I am not having too much of go at Devolved!(I promise I don't think either he or you are fools)

Perhaps you could answer the questions I asked Devovled as the same thing applies to your Theory, Why does your god get priority over the others?

Plus how you going to test your theory?

If you were joking and I have done my usual idiotic mis-reading please feel free to hurl humorous insults any time!! Either way I look forward to hearing from you!
Cheers, Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

14. Comment #40815 by BicycleRepairMan on May 15, 2007 at 3:21 am

 avatar"Let's start with how life got started."

Why dont we? The answer is simple: Simple.

However complex the first self-replicating organism was, a Creator would be MORE COMPLEX. in other words you complicate the problem.

Life started with something very, very simple. That simple thing may still have been rather complex for it to "just happen", but it has an eternity of time to allow it to happen. You might bet the lottery every week your entire life, and the chances of winning are still small, but had your life had a geological timespan, say 30 million years, you'd probably win several times, perhaps even 5 weeks in a row on some occasions. This allows for the first replicator to be a very, very improbable thing indeed, but its still plausible, because it has such a long time to happen.

If scientist would follow your standard they could say Where did this first bacteria come from? A higher-order bacteria evolved into one. Obviously as you can see that would explain nothing. Life evolves from simple to complex, not vice-versa, that is why "God did it" is NO EXPLANATION AT ALL.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

15. Comment #40817 by Robert Maynard on May 15, 2007 at 3:43 am

 avatarBAEOZ said
Trolling devolved?
Abiogenesis is a separate theory to evolution. How life got started is immaterial to how evolution functions. I'm pretty sure you know this and are just trying to be a pain.
I would never be too sure what devolved knows in any given situation. :P
Sometimes I even wonder if he is a bot script deployed by CMI

The worst part was when he quoted "More recently, Eugene Koonin and others tried to calculate the bare minimum [of genes] required for a living cell.." [emphasis mine]
This suggests that he (and whoever he quoted) is not familiar with some basic abiogenesis, which involves the smooth gradient between chemical particles and replicating structures, before becoming securely insulated and cellular in nature.

Other Comments by Robert Maynard

16. Comment #40818 by D'Arcy on May 15, 2007 at 3:48 am

 avatarThe poor hard done by creationists are wearing their thorny crowns again; devolved wrote:
Of course evolution is built upon the god of luck so we'd best keep that out of the curriculum too.


As usual nothing apart from pure assertion of any proof of "intelligent design". Where is that old man in the sky with the big beard anyway? The Christian one is surely taking a long time to come back to redeem us all.

Other Comments by D'Arcy

17. Comment #40822 by Yorker on May 15, 2007 at 4:04 am

This is off topic, but I felt the need to put it somewhere. This morning, during that half-awake time in bed, my brain concocted the following for some unknown reason. I call it:



The Lord's Prayer (Atheist Version)

We have no Father, which art in Heaven,
For Heaven itself, existeth not.
No Kingdom here on Earth shall come,
as it never did in Heaven.
Thy will cannot be done,
for will thou haveth not.
Our daily bread we baketh ourselves,
otherwise we eateth not.
To trespass and forgive trespassers,
is ours to decideth upon, not thine.
Temptation likewise, is our domain,
therefore we blameth you not.
Deliverance from evil is beyond thy power,
but seemeth thy flock indulge with thy blessing.
For ours is the Kingdom, the wise seeketh not power and glory,
not forever, shall existeth only men, and women.


Other Comments by Yorker

18. Comment #40823 by Mat on May 15, 2007 at 4:11 am

As usual, "Devolved" (maybe should change name to "Unevolved?") has got the wrong end of the stick. Random genetic changes are indeed random. But natural selection doesn't have a lot to do with luck. "Descent with modification" means that those random changes that improve, in some way, an individual's or species' survival prospects become more dominant over time. That's not LUCK. It is natural selection. Die-hard Christians just can't seem to grasp the idea that natural selection is anything but luck-based, just like they persistently refuse to recognise what a "scientific theory" is. It is NOT just an invention, a hunch, a guess, something a scientist made up after a long night on the beer. Taken from Jerry Coyne's brilliant article "The faith that dare not speak its name": "...the Oxford English Dictionary defines a scientific theory as "a scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts." In science, a theory is a convincing explanation for a diversity of data from nature." Come on Christians, get with it, there's only so much to be gained out of deliberately misunderstanding or simply being unwilling to face the facts.

Other Comments by Mat

19. Comment #40826 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 4:20 am

 avatarYorker

You lucky bugger - fancy waking up to that. Well done and nice into the bargain.

I'll accept that. Short post, got to go to bed.

V

Other Comments by Veronique

20. Comment #40832 by Yorker on May 15, 2007 at 4:32 am

Devolved

You need to study "Scientific Method 101", you commit the simple basic error of converting that which you want to believe into that which is true.

Coming to a site like this and posting links to sites maintained by others with the same problem as yours, will convince no-one. Some here have never suffered from an attack of god virulence, but there are many who have, and who've overcome it. They did it by standing back and studying the subject critically, they allowed evidence, reason and their experience of reality to change their minds. I don't fully understand the psyche of persons like yourself who are unwilling to give up their long-held delusion, I can only suggest that you give it a try, perhaps you will experience the great feeling of liberation that many here have.

Other Comments by Yorker

21. Comment #40841 by Peacebeuponme on May 15, 2007 at 4:46 am

6. Comment #40761 by devolved on May 14, 2007 at 11:11 pm

"Let's start with how life got started.

I quote, "Indeed, the origin of the first self-reproducing system is recognized by many scientists as an unsolved problem for evolution, and thus evidence for a Creator. There is good reason for this: even the simplest self-reproducing organism contains vast quantities of complex, specific information. Mycoplasma genitalium has the smallest known genome of any free-living organism, containing 482 genes comprising 580,000 bases. Of course, these genes are only functional with pre-existing translational and replicating machinery, a cell membrane, etc. But Mycoplasma can only survive by parasitizing more complex organisms, which provide many of the nutrients it cannot manufacture for itself. So evolutionists must posit a more complex first living organism with even more genes."

You seem to be suggesting that since Mycoplasma has the smallest genome it must have existed in its current form before all other currently living organisms and in the very early stages of life. I know very little about specific organisms except what I have read in Dawkins books. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of literature that supports the above premises?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

22. Comment #40842 by Yorker on May 15, 2007 at 4:49 am

20. Comment #40826 by Veronique

Yes Veronique, I feel like a lucky bugger today, I think I'll go downwtown - see if I can get luckier!

Perhaps an explanation of the word "bugger" is needed for our American friends, I noticed when I lived there, many didn't understand it.

Basically, a "bugger" is a sodomite. Buggery used to be a crime and I believe still is in some states of the US. Here in the UK and evidently in Australia, it is considered a mild swear word but curiously, it's also used as a term of endearment and it is in this context I'm certain, that Veronique uses it.

Other Comments by Yorker

23. Comment #40844 by Orion on May 15, 2007 at 4:57 am

"it is considered a mild swear word but curiously, it's also used as a term of endearment"
Doesn't that apply to most mild swear words? Substitute 'lucky bugger' with 'lucky bastard'...

Other Comments by Orion

24. Comment #40861 by Yorker on May 15, 2007 at 5:45 am

24. Comment #40844 by Orion

Possibly, but so what? Aren't you being something of a pedantic asshole?

Sorry, couldn't resist that - consider it a term of endearment. :)

Other Comments by Yorker

25. Comment #40863 by Jack Rawlinson on May 15, 2007 at 5:51 am

 avatarIndeed, the origin of the first self-reproducing system is recognized by many scientists as an unsolved problem for evolution, and thus evidence for a Creator

Let's rephrase this, shall we?

"Indeed, the existence of something we don't understand yet is recognized by many intelligent people as being an inevitable state of affairs for limited entities such as ourselves, and by many unintelligent people as being evidence for the God of the Gaps."

Tiresome how many faith-heads still cling desperately to this dead-end tack as opposed to being thoroughly embarrassed by themselves for trotting it out in public yet again.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

26. Comment #40874 by Enblomst on May 15, 2007 at 6:29 am

Philip1978, it was in fact satire, but maybe it misfired. To me, "the gravitational hand of god theory", sounds totally inane. I wonder if it would be cool if someone marketed the idea though, yes-men/Sokal hoax style, and tried to integrate it as a part of the ID movement. There you go, no hurling of humorous insults. If anything, I would blame the world we live in for actually making it necessary to consider the possibility of such a proposition to be genuine.

"Cheers", Enblomst

Other Comments by Enblomst

27. Comment #40876 by lt_zippy2 on May 15, 2007 at 6:35 am

Two points really,

1. The origin of life has not been fully discovred yet, bur as science has sytematcially chipped away and dismissed previous religious explanations is seems almost inevitable that this is another that is destined to be trumped by science, especially when you bear in mind we have a number of workable hypotheses that we just need to work out how to test.

2. What do we do with all of the "moderate" believers who accept evolution (by natural selection) as god's way of achieving his creation?

Other Comments by lt_zippy2

28. Comment #40882 by wagnerpe on May 15, 2007 at 6:50 am

Devolved,

I am going to provide you with an analogy, courtesy of Mr. Dawkins. Take the Holocaust, for example. People overwhelmingly attest to the fact that the Holocaust took place. We have eyewitness accounts, photographs, paperwork, and remnants of concentration camps as evidence. Your ranting is equivalent to someone who looks at population records and says that the decline in the Jewish population simply does not correlate with the dates of the genocide. Hence, it must be a highly profitable and carefullly articulated hoax!

It is in this way that your rantings are ridiculous. You are a fundamentalist fool, and I call you a Troll.

Other Comments by wagnerpe

29. Comment #40883 by Philip1978 on May 15, 2007 at 6:51 am

 avatarEnblomst, hehehe see, I told you! You must understand I am an English and History Graduate and therefore prone to arsing it up when I read stuff!

If you are going to market the Gravitational Hand of God you might want to start with that famous Argentinian footballer Deigo Maradonna for research purposes!

My sincere apologies to you good Sir/Madam and everyone else, I am only 28 and male and know no better hehehehe!

Cheers, Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

30. Comment #40887 by sppach on May 15, 2007 at 6:54 am

As usual(i am glad to say)totally engrossing

Other Comments by sppach

31. Comment #40918 by TeapotTheist on May 15, 2007 at 7:46 am

 avatarDevolved quoted (source, please!):
"Indeed, the origin of the first self-reproducing system is recognized by many scientists as an unsolved problem for evolution, and thus evidence for a Creator."

Do you also believe that the "unsolved problem" of abiogenesis is evidence for a Creator? This is plainly bad logic - lack of knowledge about something is never evidence FOR anything!

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32. Comment #40926 by derwent on May 15, 2007 at 8:05 am

 avatar"the gravitational hand of god theory"

I believe The Onion have refered to this as Intelligent Falling... Yep, here's the link:

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/39512

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33. Comment #40975 by Pi Guy on May 15, 2007 at 9:17 am

Intelligent Falling - hah!

Cleraly, that class in Differential Geometry was a waste of time while I was working toward my physics degree. More that that, students no longer need those massive, expensive three-semster General Physics texts. All they need is a one-page doc that says "god did it". Brilliant! *bumps Guinness bottle with Guinness drinking buddy*

Maybe that's how so many people get through the Liberty U Law School. Just take out all the hard stuff, repeat the statment "god said that was wrong", and you've got a job in the Dept of Justice!

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34. Comment #40977 by Enblomst on May 15, 2007 at 9:20 am

Thanks for the link, great article. That's a lesson for all of us then, always consult The Onion before making satire, in case it has been done before.

The two theories are not completely comparative though. Gravitational hand of god relates to IF like creationism do to ID. While IF claims the force acting on objects is Jesus, subscribers to the GHoG theory believe that the actual hand of god literally is pulling us down. There is also the issue of pulling versus pushing, where IF claims it is a force exerted from top down. GHoG emphasizes the pulling qualities of movement towards the ground. However, these specific predictions are the hallmarks of good scientific theories, and only time and experiments will tell us how god makes sure we don't drift away. Note that the theory of gravity proposes no mechanism for how the gravitational force is exerted.
Philip: hold your guns!

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35. Comment #40983 by mickleby on May 15, 2007 at 9:26 am

I am shocked that Richard Dawkins would lend his name to this article.

What important issues in life are binary? To be or not to be? Only those too lazy and unimaginative to form their own opinions could possibly accept this formulation.

I expect more from Richard Dawkins (though sadly not of the Guardian) than to participate in this manichaean brainwashing.

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36. Comment #40985 by arildno on May 15, 2007 at 9:33 am

Eeh, mickleby?
Whether Jesus was resurrected or not is a "binary" matter. Either it is true and false.

It is also an issue that is of vast importance to many people.

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37. Comment #41018 by mickleby on May 15, 2007 at 10:48 am

The meaning of "Jesus" is certainly not binary.

Manichaean propaganda is surely a relevant and important issue, and dualism is inherent in the title and opening paragraphs of this article.

Science is a unary proposition. "I assert that these methods provide the most reliable means to discover physical truth." Yes, it is either right or wrong -- but there are assuredly not two sides.

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38. Comment #41301 by Veronique on May 15, 2007 at 8:31 pm

 avatarOf course Yorker!!

One forgets what slang is acceptable in one country or another. Thank you for ensuring our US friends understood what I meant.

I believe the Brits were pissed off with an Aussie ad. for tourism asking the question 'Come on, where the bloody hell are you?'

I am not sure now, whether it was banned for a short time in the UK or has been banned forever. We poor Aussies couldn't understand what the fuss was about. LOL Bloody hell is one of our finest epithets!

And bugger is nearly always used with a smile (like bastard). We use a different set of naughty words to indicate displeasure or anger or even, for that matter, disbelief.

We've been here before Yorker. Language is always wonderful fun to talk about:-)

Cheers
V

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