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Monday, August 6, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Arrogance, dogma and why science - not faith - is the new enemy of reason

by Melanie Phillips

Reposted from:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=473347&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=256

Our most celebrated atheist, the biologist Professor Richard Dawkins, has briefly turned his attention away from bashing people who believe in God.

Instead, he is about to bash people who subscribe to 'new age' therapies which he says are based on 'irrational superstition'.

In a TV programme to be shown later this month, Dawkins looks at a range of ludicrous therapies and gurus, including faith healers, psychic mediums, 'angel therapists', 'aura photographers', astrologers and others.

Not surprisingly, he is horrified by such widespread irrationality, not to mention an exploitative industry that fleeces people while encouraging them to run away from reality. He is right to be alarmed.

What previously belonged to the province of the quack and the charlatan has become mainstream. The NHS provides funding for shamans, while the NHS Directory For Alternative And Complementary Medicine promotes 'dowsers', 'flower therapists' and 'crystal healers'.

Indeed, such therapies aren't the half of it. Millions of us are now eager to believe that the world is controlled by conspiracies of covert forces, for which there is not one shred of evidence because such theories are simply bonkers.

Thus Press articles and TV documentaries seriously advance the belief that the 9/11 attacks on America were orchestrated by the U.S. government itself. Similarly, thousands believe that Princess Diana was murdered at the hands of a conspiracy composed of the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Charles and MI5.

Bestselling books by the former TV sports presenter David Icke, who has announced he is 'the son of God', argue that Britain will be devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes, and that the world is ruled by a secret group called the 'Global Elite' or 'Illuminati' which was responsible for the Holocaust, the Oklahoma city bombing and 9/11.

These trends are not just nutty but sinister. Thousands of cults now combine similar crazy beliefs with programmes to control people's minds and behaviour.

Their techniques include food and sleep deprivation; trance induction through hypnosis or prolonged rhythmical chanting; and 'love bombing', where cult members are bombarded with conditional love which is removed whenever there is a deviation from the dictates of the leader.

Disturbing indeed. But where Dawkins goes wrong is to assume this is all as irrational as believing in God. The truth is that it is the collapse of religious faith that has prompted the rise of such irrationality.

We are living in a scientific, largely post-religious age in which faith is presented as unscientific superstition. Yet paradoxically, we have replaced such faith by belief in demonstrable nonsense.

It was GK Chesterton who famously quipped that "when people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing - they believe in anything." So it has proved. But how did it happen?

The big mistake is to see religion and reason as polar opposites. They are not. In fact, reason is intrinsic to the Judeo-Christian tradition.

The Bible provides a picture of a rational Creator and an orderly universe - which, accordingly, provided the template for the exercise of reason and the development of science.

Dawkins pours particular scorn on the Biblical miracles which don't correspond to scientific reality. But religious believers have different ways of regarding those events, with many seeing them as either metaphors or as natural occurrences which were invested with a greater significance.

The heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the belief in the concept of truth, which gives rise to reason. But our postreligious age has proclaimed that there is no such thing as objective truth, only what is "true for me".

That is because our society won't put up with anything which gets in the way of 'what I want'. How we feel about things has become all-important. So reason has been knocked off its perch by emotion, and thinking has been replaced by feelings.

This has meant our society can no longer distinguish between truth and lies by using evidence and logic. And this collapse of objective truth has, in turn, come to undermine science itself which is playing a role for which it is not fitted.

When science first developed in the West, it thought of itself merely as a tool to explore the natural world. It did not pour scorn upon religion; indeed, scientists were overwhelmingly religious believers (as many still are).

In modern times, however, science has given rise to 'scientism', the belief that science can answer all the questions of human existence. This is not so.

Science cannot explain the origin of the universe. Yet it now presumes to do so and as a result it has descended into irrationality.

The most conspicuous example of this is provided by Dawkins himself, who breaks the rules of scientific evidence by seeking to claim that Darwin's theory of evolution - which sought to explain how complex organisms evolved through random natural selection - also accounts for the origin of life itself.

There is no evidence for this whatever and no logic to it. After all, if people say God could not have created the universe because this gives rise to the question "Who created God?", it follows that if scientists say the universe started with a big bang, this prompts the further question "What created the bang?"

Indeed, if the origin of life were truly spontaneous, this would constitute what religious people would call a miracle. Accordingly, this claim in itself resembles not so much science as the superstition that Dawkins derides.

Moreover, since science essentially takes us wherever the evidence leads, the findings of more than 50 years of DNA research - which have revealed the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life - have thrown into doubt the theory that life emerged spontaneously in a random universe.

These findings have given rise to a school of scientists promoting the theory of Intelligent Design, which suggests that some force embodying purpose and foresight lay behind the origin of the universe.

While this theory is, of course, open to vigorous counter-argument, people such as Prof Dawkins and others have gone to great lengths to stop it being advanced at all, on the grounds that it denies scientific evidence such as the fossil record and is therefore worthless.

Yet distinguished scientists have been hounded and their careers jeopardised for arguing that the fossil record has got a giant hole in it. Some 570 million years ago, in a period known as the Cambrian Explosion, most forms of complex animal life emerged seemingly without any evolutionary trail.

These scientists argue that only 'rational agents' could have possessed the ability to design and organise such complex systems.

Whether or not they are right (and I don't know), their scientific argument about the absence of evidence to support the claim that life spontaneously created itself is being stifled - on the totally perverse grounds that this argument does not conform to the rules of science which require evidence to support a theory.

As a result of such arrogance, the West - the crucible of reason - is turning the clock back to a pre-modern age of obscurantism, dogma and secular witch-hunts.

Far from upholding reason, science itself has become unreasonable. So when Prof Dawkins fulminates against 'new age' irrationality, it is the image of pots and kettles that comes irresistibly to mind.

Comments 101 - 146 of 146 |

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101. Comment #62027 by epeeist on August 8, 2007 at 1:01 am

 avatarComment #61913 by Steven Mading
Yes, it's true that the rise of monotheism did give rise to science

This is one that gets raised fairly frequently. I am not sure that it is true (though if someone could bring better arguments than I have seen I might be convinced).

There is certainly correlation between the advancement of science and the reduction in the number of gods, but whether the link is causal is another matter.

If you think of science during the renaissance a lot of it was produced in spite of religion and the assumption of the authority of the ancients (such as Aristotle). And of course, the Greeks were hardly monotheistic.

Edit: The column is still showing only 4 comments. I wonder what happened to mine and others posted by people from this site?

Other Comments by epeeist

102. Comment #62039 by petermun on August 8, 2007 at 2:05 am

Those with a god have a head start in their acceptance of all sorts of other off-the-wall superstitious beliefs - (or so my crystal pyramid suggests).

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103. Comment #62043 by TorgoSlayer on August 8, 2007 at 2:28 am

Am I alone in thinking something this bad could easily be a very strange and unfunny joke? Only if it isn't Melanie Phillips missed the part of an article where you actually think about what you're saying.

Other Comments by TorgoSlayer

104. Comment #62044 by TorgoSlayer on August 8, 2007 at 2:32 am

I'll just jump on this posting bandwagon again and ask 'why isn't there an Is This Person Joking option in the article rating system'. With this nonsense it's sorely needed.

"Hi-keeba!"
-Lt Bradley, Women of the Prehistoric Planet (thanks MST3K!)

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105. Comment #62047 by pantsandboots on August 8, 2007 at 2:51 am

 avatarThat's great! I reached:

"But where Dawkins goes wrong is to assume this is all as irrational as believing in God."

And started laughing. Admittedly, I didn't read the rest, I don't have a life to waste.

Other Comments by pantsandboots

106. Comment #62067 by phasmagigas on August 8, 2007 at 5:02 am

 avatardespite the majority of the USA and UK population (for eg) believeing in some degree of unproved nonesense, much of which could be connected with healing i wonder why in perhaps ALL (well most) cases of severe illness/injury people would like to get put into a carefully crafted metal box with combustion engine (maybe even one that flies sometimes) and as fast as can be they are taken to place that uses highly trained people using proven methods and equipment for relief and recovery, ie a hospital. anyway i wonder if phillips is of the 'i use science' when im in the shit philosophy.

Admittedly she might pray all the way but if given a choice of the hospital or the crystal healer for an amputated leg i reckon shed have to swallow her pride and opt for the hospital.

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107. Comment #62068 by Bonzai on August 8, 2007 at 5:03 am

The Bible provides a picture of a rational Creator and an orderly universe - which, accordingly, provided the template for the exercise of reason and the development of science.


What an odd thing to say. Reason had developed into a high art in the forms of sophisticate philosophy and science in ancient Greece long before Christianity arrived on the scene.

The Abrahamic religions are fundamentally irrational. At the heart there is a capricious God who created the world for a personal agenda and he intervenes through suspending the laws of physics at his whims. According to this way of thinking the laws of nature are ultimately "unnatural" because they require a law giver who himself is arbitrary and not subjected to any law.

The advent of Judeo-Christian monotheism represented not a progress of reason in relation to the ancient Greeks, but a massive retreat from it.

I do take issue with Dawkins' often repeated argument that there was a reduction of the number of gods from the golden age of ancient Greece to the rise of Christianity. While superficially true, it misses the point.

It is true that the Greeks were polytheists but their gods didn't have the same ontological status as the Biblical God. The Pantheons were not viewed as the creators of the universe, they were themselves the product of some primordial abstract principle,-- the logos (actually Zeus and company were even second generation gods as they were the children of the Titans, whom they defeated and imprisoned) Unlike the God of the bible the Olympians were subjected to law like restrictions. For example, even Zeus could not defy fate,--which is a kind of impersonal law. The Greek gods were only more powerful beings than humans, they were not masters of the universe who could arbitrarily invoke magic to override cosmic laws.

Nor did the Greeks in general regard the gods as the source of morality. Socrates famously argued that justice could have meaning only if it existed independently of the gods. His point was that morality had to be defined intrinsically. This was a great contrast with the primitive Abrahamic faiths which hold that ethics is nothing but the fiat of an arbitrary God who himself is not bound by any minimal standard of decency.

To the Greeks, order was natural and intrinsic to the cosmos and this cosmic order was a supreme principle that even the gods had to obey. This was far closer in spirit to modern science than Abrahamic monotheism. The Abrahamic religions are crass, primitive and shallow in comparison with the "polytheism" of the ancient Greeks.

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108. Comment #62077 by Bonzai on August 8, 2007 at 5:29 am

The truth is that it is the collapse of religious faith that has prompted the rise of such irrationality.


This is true,but not in the way she intended. Christianity used to have a monopoly on nonsense, now the monopoly is broken because centralized faith is undermined by secularism and science. As a result there is a free market of nonsensical ideas for people who are prone to irrationality and wishful thinking; such people always exist.

Wherever the Mafia is strong there are few independent drug dealers because the gang monopolizes the drug trade. But this is hardly an argument in favour of big drug lords. By Melanie Phillips' logic she would blame the police for the proliferation of small time crooks because it busted the big gangs.

The article is a complete waste of space, utter drivels.

Other Comments by Bonzai

109. Comment #62089 by A on August 8, 2007 at 5:54 am

"The heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the belief in the concept of truth"

"Far from upholding reason, science itself has become unreasonable."


Very very silly article, and from (I am assuming) a fully grown adult ?

Other Comments by A

110. Comment #62092 by mjwemdee on August 8, 2007 at 6:03 am

 avatarHave written irate comment on Ms Phillip's blog at the Daily Mail.
Am now going to find some plates to smash...

Other Comments by mjwemdee

111. Comment #62095 by kareldepauw on August 8, 2007 at 6:27 am

Not so long ago Ms Philips paraded her abysmal ignorance by taking up the cause of the MMR-vaccine-causes-autism brigade and now we have her expertise on the big bang, the origin of life and the Cambrian era. Truly, 'Gegen Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens!'

Other Comments by kareldepauw

112. Comment #62098 by anandamide on August 8, 2007 at 6:43 am

 avatarAlthough I do have to say, despite the context I'm really quite amused that the Daily Mail featured something as obscure (to a general readership) as the Cambrian explosion.

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113. Comment #62118 by Wadsworth on August 8, 2007 at 8:21 am

If you think of science during the renaissance a lot of it was produced in spite of religion and the assumption of the authority of the ancients (such as Aristotle). And of course, the Greeks were hardly monotheistic.


Yes and also the Chinese, and the ancient Egyptians who produced enough practical science and maths to enable them to construct their pyramids with amazing accuracy, nothwithstanding having hundreds of gods..

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114. Comment #62120 by Bonzai on August 8, 2007 at 8:36 am

Wadesworth,

Many ancient "polytheistic" cultures didn't attribute the same ontological significance to their "gods" as the Abrahamic religions do.

Interesting that you mention the Chinese.The Chinese intellectual tradition is actually atheistic. The absence of strong organized Church opened up opportunities to many local worships and cults, for exactly the reason I wrote above regarding the demise of Christianity and the rise of new age nonsense: there had never been a religious monopoly in China if you don't count Emperor personality cult.

There had never been a religious war in China's long history. The first rebellion with a clear religious agenda was the Tai Ping revolution in the 1860's. The leader claimed he was the younger brother of Jesus.

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115. Comment #62139 by Cartomancer on August 8, 2007 at 9:59 am

 avatarAh, now we get on to the question of whether religious belief, specifically monotheistic belief, can somehow be causally linked to the "rise of science." This is a very complicated question to ask. It's the sort of thing that historians of ideas engage with quite a lot, and of course as posed it buys in to a number of cultural assumptions about what science is and how it was propagated.

The standard picture of "Western" science would begin with Greek science - specifically with the fifth century Athenian presocratics, then Plato, Aristotle and the Hellenistic philosophical schools which continued to thrive under the Roman Empire. It would see a massive decline in scientific and philosophical situation with the collapse of the Roman Empire - partially due to Christian closure of the pagan schools but mostly due to the decline of centralised institutions now there was no imperial system to support them. There is evidence that natural philosophy was still an interest of some late Roman and post-Roman aristocrats (Macrobius' Saturnalia, De Nuptiiis Mercurii et Philologiae - this last actually positing that Mercury and Venus at least had heliocentric orbits).

Apart from a few isolated attempts at modest scientific endeavours by the likes of Cassiodorus, Bede and Alcuin science floundered in the early middle ages - mostly it was confined to collecting the thin remains of ancient science that survived in the Latin tradition and writing on the Computus (reckoning of the calendar, primarily a practical tool to determine the correct date of easter). Renaissance humanists, Enlightenment scientists and the inheritors of their prejudices would argue that science emerged only once the narrow, Christian mindset of the Middle Ages gave way to a classicisng mien and a shift of focus from a god-centred to a man-centred universe, but this is a very distorted picture indeed. Study of scientific activity in the central middle ages (c.1100-1350) is instructive in understanding how religious, theistic currents of thought can influence rational thinking.

For a start high scholastic learning was an overwhelmingly logical endeavour. Formal logic was considered (along with grammar and rhetoric) one of the basic tools for understanding reality, and in this field at least real advances were made on the classical inheritance, once the Organon of Aristotle had been completed with twelfth century translations of the Posterior Analytics and other works. In fact in some highly recondite areas the previously unedited works of fourteenth century logicians have actually revealed a precocious discovery of logical theories not to surface again until the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. Don't ask me what precise areas these are - advanced formal logic makes my brain hurt, especially in crabbed fourteenth century Latin!

Nevertheless the likes of Peter Abelard set the stage for rigorous deductive thinking ever afterwards. Inductive reasoning from experiment would take longer to develop - perhaps stifled by an over-emphasis on pure logic, but nevertheless scholars did begin from the twelfth century onward to search for new sources of knowledge about the physical world and found them in the writings of the Greeks and Arabs.

This is perhaps the crux of my argument. The Catholic church had something of a monopoly on education and learning at this time, and its vision of learning was that a unified, coherent body of doctrine could be derived from all available sources of knowledge, could be perfected and would eventually lead to a true understanding of God, the universe and everything. As such the medieval scholastic endeavour was a synthetic one, ideas such as the double truth (that one thing was true in a theological sense, another in a practical sense) being strenuously denied. This stems, in no small way, from the belief that if your scriptures are true and incontrovertible then the knowledge they provide will necessarily be consonant with that derived from observations of the natural world. Science was not, for the most part, in opposition to theology because it was essentially subordinate to theology. Methodologically they were considered exactly the same thing - the explanation of real world phenomena and the sorting out of conflicts and inconsistencies in the evidence. Of course, scripture was seen as incontrovertible evidence in its own right and not subject to rigorous epistemological investigation in the same way as other texts, but the church fathers did not have such a privileged position, and scripture still had to be interpreted to make it fit with the big picture, leaving room for doubt over what it actually means.

This sort of medieval science pioneered the aspects of modern science that deal with conflicting claims that have both been proved in some way true - the theorising and the reconciling of conflicting evidence. Observation, if not full controlled experiment, became important for the first time and there grew up a genuine sense that all available evidence should be brought to bear on a scientific question. Without a sophisticated approach to assessing the truth claims and reliability of this evidence you do get some very strange results, but part of the scientific mind-set was put in place during these years, and work did begin on epistemological issues. Roger Bacon (c.1214-1294) is an early, though not the earliest, example of a scholar who recognised the need for a firm empirical basis in scientific investigation.

I would claim that the unified Catholic church and its vision of one consistent truth was a very powerful influence on the origin of the scientific method, and it is to the middle ages rather than the Greeks that this part of our science should be credited. Greek science split quickly into competing schools, each maintaining its own dogmas and paradigms and only grudgingly willing to concede points to rival schools. Paradoxically it was the need to base Catholic dogma on as much evidence as possible that made scientific study of the created world a necessity, and the need to take scripture into account that broke Aristotle's spell. Without these two traditions to reconcile medieval science could easily have become dogmatic Aristotelianism.

This is not to do down the work of the enlightenment and the scientific revolution of course. The emergence of the fully developed scientific method with controlled experiments and empirical induction allowed science to take off on its own terms and build a coherent picture of the world on entirely rational underpinnings, rather than feeding all sorts of unsubstantiated claims into the hopper marked "evidence" as the medievals did. Nevertheless, it was only after centuries of testing out the old model that that model was found to be inadequate and a new one evolved.

The greatest triumph of medieval thinking upon the recovery of classical science was not, as they had hoped, finding it was sufficient to explain the universe but on the contrary finding that it was not. Thence came the need to sort out what we can really take as true, how we can actively seek out more true things rather than being satisfied with all the ones we currently have, and give even give the god hypothesis the critical scrutiny it deserves.

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116. Comment #62143 by Cartomancer on August 8, 2007 at 10:19 am

 avatarIncidentally the relegation of God from active intervener in historical events to a shadowy first principle which sets up the physical laws and for the most part just leaves the universe to get on with it can be traced at least to the thirteenth century in the West. John of Sacrobosco's De Sphaera is the most prominent example, coining the term Machina Mundi to describe such a clockwork universe. Clockwork is, of course, an invention of medieval craftsmen and perhaps served medieval thinkers as a valuable analogy for the universe, which to them was essentially a series of rotating spheres, in the same way computers serve modern scientists as analogies for the brain.

It is salutary to note that Western thought rejected occasionalism - the idea that God is the immediate cause of everything and the observed causal patterns in nature are merely illusion - at round about the time the Islamic world embraced it, consequently castrating the golden age of Islamic science and beginning the slow, unpleasant decline of the Muslim world into obscurantism and madness. Scholars such as Manegold of Lautenbach and Rupert of Deutz in the West were regarded as reactionary dinosaurs at the beginning of the twelfth century because they rejected rationalism, while at the same time their Islamic opposite number, the respected scientist Algazel, made the epistemological backward leap from reasoned science to crackpot faith. The underlying reasons for this are interesting, but effusive and complicated. Ironically Aquinas would make considerable use of Algazel's earlier scientific and philosophical treatises.

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117. Comment #62177 by Cartomancer on August 8, 2007 at 2:46 pm

 avatarI suppose what I'm trying to say is that the highly religious intellectual climate of the central and late middle ages in the west almost certainly acted as a kind of scaffolding that gave rise to valuable scientific methodology - a methodology that might not have arisen on its own were these structures not in place.

Would it have evolved independently in an atheistic or polytheistic society? Perhaps. We cannot predict the evolution of sophisticated cultural phenomena from first principles and there is little point in trying to do so. "Did the church promote or stifle Western science in the middle ages?" is a question that has very little meaning to medieval historians. To answer it one would have to imagine a society without the institutional church, and whatever this society might look like, it would certainly look nothing like the middle ages as we know them.

However, just as those other great products of the middle ages - the towering cathedrals, majestic universities and imposing castles, were built with scaffolding but do not need it now, so too has our scientific method advanced beyond the need for such things.

Quite what cultural processes acted as scaffolding for the development of wide-eyed drooling idiots like the mentally sub-normal Melanie Phillips is anyone's guess however...

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118. Comment #62187 by Goldy on August 8, 2007 at 4:20 pm

Clockwork is, of course, an invention of medieval craftsmen and perhaps served medieval thinkers as a valuable analogy for the universe, which to them was essentially a series of rotating spheres, in the same way computers serve modern scientists as analogies for the brain.

Ummm, http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v444/n7119/full/444534a.html? Classical clockwork, quite topical at the moment too. The "of course" is, in my mind, misplaced and also probably slightly Euro-centric. Sorry to be pedantic.

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119. Comment #62188 by Goldy on August 8, 2007 at 4:22 pm

The Antikythera mechanism does show you don't only need one god to do great things :-)

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120. Comment #62190 by automath on August 8, 2007 at 4:26 pm

 avatar
118. Cartomancer Quite what cultural processes acted as scaffolding for the development of wide-eyed drooling idiots like the mentally sub-normal Melanie Phillips is anyone's guess however...


This is where one might see the hand of god.

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121. Comment #62194 by Cartomancer on August 8, 2007 at 5:21 pm

 avatarGoldy, Comment #62187

All I said was that medieval european craftsmen invented clockwork mechanisms. I did not suggest that they were either the first or the only ones to have done so.

Just as evolution comes up with similar designs for things like eyes and wings independently in several places, so too does human ingenuity. It is narrowly reductionistic and just plain wrong to assume that any technology must, by necessity, have only a single origin and all subsequent instances must have copied that. It would be almost impossible to argue that medieval clockwork mechanisms were in some way inspired by classical ones (although some technical manuscripts attributed Hero of Alexandria were circulating in the central middle ages, mainly in the Byzantine and Arab worlds however).

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122. Comment #62197 by BAEOZ on August 8, 2007 at 5:39 pm

 avatarCartomancer:
specifically with the fifth century Athenian presocratics,

Pythagoras of Samos, Thales and the others of the Milesian school where actually from Athens? I think you'll struggle with that claim.....

and in this field at least real advances were made on the classical inheritance, once the Organon of Aristotle had been completed with twelfth century translations of the Posterior Analytics and other works.


My limited understanding is that logic didn't really advance past Aristotles syllogisms (which were a bit faulty) until the 19th century when real advances began. Symbolic logic, etc...

I would agree with you thesis that the ancient Greeks were analytic, that is, didn't test their theorys against evidence. That was their great downfall. You can construct all sorts of coherent metaphysic weirdness, but if you don't have any concrete evidence for it, then you can't claim it as knowledge or even more real than a fairy tale. It's interesting that the atomists have largely been shown to have been in the right by history, but they were just postulating, and in that sense just got lucky and can't have claimed knowledge.....

The church grabbed the ideas that suited its theology, such as platonic souls, aristotelean logic and synthesised a metaphysic that agreed with their theology. I have limited knowledge of the scholastics, and what you've written about them seems reasonable.
So, there we have it, the church wanted to prove it's dogma in an irrefutable way, and in doing so, let the genie (science) out of the bottle. Needless to say, it's been trying to put it back in its bottle and cork it up ever since....

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123. Comment #62201 by Cartomancer on August 8, 2007 at 5:55 pm

 avatarIndeed. Presocratic science was far more diverse than I have intimated - though I would still point out that it is because of the classical Athenian and Hellenistic authors that we actually have anything at all from Thales, Pythagoras and their ilk.

And broadly speaking logical studies did not go too far beyond Aristotle in the middle ages, at least as far as non-specialists were concerned. The extremely recondite stuff did make significant departures though, or so people like Paul Vincent Spade, Richard Cross and Cecilia Trifogli who can actually understand this stuff tell me.

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124. Comment #62202 by BAEOZ on August 8, 2007 at 5:58 pm

 avatarI'm reading a book by Carnap at the moment on symbolic logic. My brain hurts. By the way, I wasn't knocking your summary, just putting in my 2 cents. It was a, to my knowledge, a very good summation of Western thought.....

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125. Comment #62206 by Goldy on August 8, 2007 at 6:50 pm

:-) No worries, Cartomancer. I wasn't actually knockingthe invention, just the "of course" ;-) Having a Chinese wife, I am having my Euro-centricity seriously knocked. The Antikythera thing was on the BBC World Service not that long ago - why it was still in my mind...
I just like to question things at times :-)

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126. Comment #62218 by MAS2007 on August 8, 2007 at 9:35 pm

 avatar29. Comment #61812 by scottishgeologist


Consider adding a system crash error message to your avatar. lol

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127. Comment #62241 by Logicel on August 9, 2007 at 3:33 am

 avatarBlack is white, sweet is sour, and bad is good. Did I get that right, Ms Phillips?

Since she has her religious head so far up her arse, she would/could not see reason even if it bit her on the arse. Therefore, she will continue spelunking the dank and dark crevices of her meandering and useless religious path dislodging at times huge, smelly (and silly) dumps.

What a waste of a human brain.

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128. Comment #62242 by somersetsimon on August 9, 2007 at 3:40 am

 avatar
We are living in a scientific, largely post-religious age in which faith is presented as unscientific superstition


Thank you for the compliment Ms Phillips, we are doing our best


unscientific

–adjective
1. not scientific; not employed in science: an unscientific measuring device.

2. not conforming to the principles or methods of science: an unscientific approach to a problem.

3. not demonstrating scientific knowledge or scientific methods: an unscientific report.

superstition
-noun
1. a belief or notion, not based on reason or knowledge, in or of the ominous significance of a particular thing, circumstance, occurrence, proceeding, or the like.

2. a system or collection of such beliefs.

3. a custom or act based on such a belief.

4. irrational fear of what is unknown or mysterious, esp. in connection with religion.

5. any blindly accepted belief or notion.

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129. Comment #62248 by phasmagigas on August 9, 2007 at 4:51 am

 avatarphillips wrote 'londonistan' which i have not read but i suppose it paints a non to pretty picture of islam in the UK (and i thought she liked the idea of irrational nonsense influencing our lives), according to wiki she doesnt believe global warming to be a man made problem, just what is it with christians and the rejection of global warming, i dont understand that one. if the bible had said something akin to 'the apple that adam ate fell to the earth by divine will' then we'd have a rabid antigravity movement too, but i suppose at the time it was written when things falling 'down' were so extraordinarily ordinary that no special mention was given by how the apple fell (well i guess adam picked the apple). Its incredible that a few lines in the bible have resulted in an all out attack on the most profound scientific explanation that we could have. I have to say i feel quite empowered knowing that my worldview is a falsifiable one(god). Imagine walking around having an unfalsifiable world view, the ridiculous certainty, the self gratification, it reeks of me,me,me.

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130. Comment #62253 by dianalake on August 9, 2007 at 5:59 am

To people who say that Dawkins bashes God and not people who believe in him, perhaps you should read his books. He calls such people ignorant stupid and (although he would not like to say so) evil! My quote may not be quite right but it is the essence of what he says. His books also often have very denegrating things to say about believers. What also amazes me about Atheists is that they attack beliefs without ever properly studying them; how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind? If I said Biology was rubbish but never studied it you would rightly call me ignorant. So much of what is said and attributed to believers is obviously based on media charactures and unrecognisable by most Christians.

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131. Comment #62256 by Cartomancer on August 9, 2007 at 6:34 am

 avatarHmm, maybe I should read that book on imaginary hats after all...

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132. Comment #62257 by Vaal on August 9, 2007 at 6:40 am

 avatarOh Melanie. You should be ashamed of yourself for espousing so much inane twaddle.

Still, if it wasn't for articles as woolly headed as this, and as vacuous as the McGrath rambles, then what better ammunition can we have to discredit the irrational. They seem to do the job very well themselves.

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133. Comment #62262 by mjwemdee on August 9, 2007 at 6:55 am

 avatarComment #62253 by dianalake

To people who say that Dawkins bashes God and not people who believe in him, perhaps you should read his books. He calls such people ignorant stupid and (although he would not like to say so) evil! My quote may not be quite right but it is the essence of what he says.

Where does Richard Dawkins call believers 'evil'? He either says it or he doesn't - your quote indeed 'may not be quite right' and therefore you are being quite disingenuous in making it.

And yes, I have read the Bible - at least twice in its entirety during my former life as a Christian - and it was thanks to a reasonably open mind that I realised what drivel most of it is.

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134. Comment #62275 by Tyler Durden on August 9, 2007 at 7:25 am

 avatarComment #62253 by dianalake:
how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind?
Diana,
Yes, I have read the bible with an open mind, that's WHY I am an atheist!

I was brought up catholic - made my communion, confirmation, went to christian brothers high-school, the whole nine yards.

I got tired asking questions about religion and "god" only to be told the same ol' story. It never made any sense to me then, it makes less sense to me now (obviously). And it's all circular reasoning: "God exists because it says so in the bible. And as the bible is the word of god, therefore god exists." Gimme a break!

In any other subject this kind of "reasoning" wouldn't stand up against serious scrutiny, yet religion gets a free pass. Sorry, not buying it. If science, Dawkins for example, tried that kind of argument to explain evolution, he'd be laughed out of Oxford.

I talk to many people who are believers, I drive them insane with quesions. Eventually I have to give up because they have no more answers, or cannot answer my questions. Are they ignorant? In my opionion, yes they are. They claim to believe in something ("god") yet do not know enough about what they believe in to explain their beliefs. I know more about religion, the bible, and "god" than most of my friends who actually believe. They take the "head in the sand" approach to it - could they be afraid of something I wonder?

I guess nobody likes the person who tells them there is no Santa!!

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135. Comment #62377 by The Krell on August 9, 2007 at 1:41 pm

Donald, comment #671820, is wasting his time sending letters that debunk religion to the Daily Mail for publication. They only entertain letters that contribute to their bland simplistic editorial style.

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136. Comment #62384 by Goldy on August 9, 2007 at 2:10 pm

He calls such people ignorant stupid and (although he would not like to say so) evil!

Thought the word was deluded. Not quite any of your translations...
Welcome back, by the way - you vanished for a spell!
Have YOU ever read the Bible with an open mind? Didn't the content make you wonder about your faith and maybe even question if the Bible was a good source of morality? Please answer truthfully - I have read and have had the Bible read to me, hence confirming my athiesm while at school.

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137. Comment #62385 by bhoytony on August 9, 2007 at 2:20 pm

I am always amused that when the Guardian Diary mentions the author of this article they always refer to her as "clinically sane Melanie Phillips".

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138. Comment #62391 by Lauregon on August 9, 2007 at 2:48 pm

The heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the belief in the concept of truth, which gives rise to reason. But our postreligious age has proclaimed that there is no such thing as objective truth, only what is "true for me". -Phillips



I'm not a Brit, but I'm gonna say this anyway: BOLLOCKS.

I'm furious. I've just received an email from a devout Christian evangelical I worked with for several years, a "nice" woman, totally devoted to "God," and a real true believer. Yesterday she sent me (yet another) of those stupid missives right-wingers in the US are abysmally fond of sending out in mass mailings to all their friends and acquaintances. It was a short essay, allegedly written by a well-known, liberal media celebrity, extolling a right-wing perspective about the virtue of a rosy worldview---in fact, it was a thinly-veiled attack on liberal critique of common reality in this age of (god-loving) George W Bush. As soon as I read it, I smelled a rat and immediately checked Snopes, an i'net debunker of urban legends. I wrote a friendly personal note back to the sender, including a brief sentence saying that the essay (actually written by a right-wing hack) was wrongly attributed, and I included a link to the debunker site which explained in detail how this legend had (ahem) evolved, built upon and around a complete misrepresentation of a droll and ironic line the media celebrity had actually tossed off during a tv show. The answer I received from my truth-loving, evangelical Christian former co-worker: "It doesn't matter who said it! The message is a good one!"

Well, sorry! I'm a liberal, AND a non-theist, and it's my belief that misrepresentation and mis-attribution is NOT a good message---and certainly has nothing to do with truth.

Theists, IMO, have a perverse understanding of truth and virtue.

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139. Comment #62395 by Lauregon on August 9, 2007 at 3:02 pm

What also amazes me about Atheists is that they attack beliefs without ever properly studying them; how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind? - Dianalake



Probably far many more than have believers. Those who have and do quite often become non-theists.

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140. Comment #62604 by Wadsworth on August 10, 2007 at 10:03 am

"What also amazes me about Atheists is that they attack beliefs without ever properly studying them; how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind? - Dianalake"

How open does your mind have to be before your brain falls out? Not everything is possible. Nature has constraints upon what can happen, and it does not include resurrections, walking on water etc.

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141. Comment #62887 by padster1976 on August 12, 2007 at 7:55 am

 avatarWe are living in a scientific, largely post-religious age in which faith is presented as unscientific superstition

Er, which one?

But where Dawkins goes wrong is to assume this is all as irrational as believing in God.

Slightly missing the point because er, that's exactly what it is.

Chesterton didn't have much useful to say - as for the belief quip above, if you know that he was also an anti-semite, it does through that into a different light. And he preferred something called distributism (check out wikipedia) over capatilism.

Oh yeah, he's a great figure to quote!

The heart of the Judeo-Christian tradition is the belief in the concept of truth, which gives rise to reason. But our postreligious age has proclaimed that there is no such thing as objective truth, only what is "true for me".

Right, so her is her crux, the danger is 'moral relitavism'. 'I think killing you is ok so I will' nonsense.

This worked for how many in the old testament? The only difference seems to be that the excuse for the act, be it harmful, selfish or good is ok if attributed to god and terrible if done for oneself. This completely ignores the fact the general sense of right/ wrong has improved over time. For example, the aristocrats who used to burn cats alive, in france i think in the 17th/18th century, for entertainment. These days, like this morning for example, there are arguements to halt all blood sports. Well, they have a point. It ain't exactly sport to shot a caged animal is it? (as in pheasents).

why on earth do these ridiculous arguments keep coming round?

This bit beggers belief...

'The most conspicuous example of this is provided by Dawkins himself, who breaks the rules of scientific evidence by seeking to claim that Darwin's theory of evolution - which sought to explain how complex organisms evolved through random natural selection - also accounts for the origin of life itself.

There is no evidence for this whatever and no logic to it. After all, if people say God could not have created the universe because this gives rise to the question "Who created God?", it follows that if scientists say the universe started with a big bang, this prompts the further question "What created the bang?"


She ain't too quick in the old news there is she.

Soooo, her's her argument-

'Bigbang? Noidea! So... gods real yeah?'

Beleive it or not, the author actually has a fairly high opinion of herself.

Hmmm, god, delusion....

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142. Comment #62889 by padster1976 on August 12, 2007 at 7:58 am

 avatarand another thing...

Moreover, since science essentially takes us wherever the evidence leads, the findings of more than 50 years of DNA research - which have revealed the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life - have thrown into doubt the theory that life emerged spontaneously in a random universe.

REALLY??

Anyone any ideas WHAT she is on about?

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143. Comment #62920 by Calilasseia on August 12, 2007 at 10:08 am

 avatarAh, Melanie Phillips and the Scaly Mail.

Why am I *not* surprised?

She seems to be trying to become the UK's very own Ann Coulter, but minus much of the spite. We'll know that the transformation is taking place in earnest when the spite and the vitriol begins to appear in large helpings.

Just lately, the Scaly Mail is disappearing up its own journalistic rectum. Melanie Phillips isn't the only journalist of late to write garbage about Dawkins and science in that rag. Trouble is, in the process of doing so, this particular tabloid seems to be trying to become an offshoot of the Discovery Institute by stealth.

The only thing worth picking it up for now is the Peanuts cartoon. :)

[Edited for typos]

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144. Comment #62971 by Dr Benway on August 12, 2007 at 4:50 pm

 avatardianalake:
What also amazes me about Atheists is that they attack beliefs without ever properly studying them; how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind?
Have you read the sacred teachings of the many religions you reject? Finished the Qu'ran? The Book of Mormon? The Confucian Canon? The I Ching? The Vedas? The Jaina Sutras? Taken some Scientology courses?

Why are you allowed to reject a religion without reading its holy writ, while we are not?

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145. Comment #62974 by BAEOZ on August 12, 2007 at 5:32 pm

 avatarDianalake:
What also amazes me about Atheists is that they attack beliefs without ever properly studying them; how many have ever read the Bible with an open mind? If I said Biology was rubbish but never studied it you would rightly call me ignorant.

Let's see: Biology: systematic attempt to explain a part of the natural world, specifically life. We all see life, we experience it in some form. We use evidence to back up or reject our explanation in a systematic manner. Biology books contain part of this tentative explanation. It's the fact that we can go back to the evidence, and test it, that we accept the authority of biology and it's books.
Religion: unsystematic attempt to explain the natural world, and describe another world and beings that we have no evidence of. No attempt to reject or accept on evidence, but makes us feel like this world has meaning. Bible is considered the beginning and end of this description, by it's own fiat.
We can dismiss biology if we can find evidence that contradicts it's hypotheses, the fact we generally don't dismiss it is because it has evidence, not because it's dogmatic. It's reasonable to believe that biology works.
We can dismiss religion and it's book, the bible because it isn't systematic and evidenced based. It's a hodgepodge of archaic explanations and misunderstandings, underpinned by phantoms. Two thousand years ago it may have been reasonable to believe the bible, now it plainly is not. When you present evidence that all can see, that doesn't require a presumed belief in the bible to accept this evidence, we won't dismiss it out of hand.....
To sum up, rejection of biology is not the same as rejection of religion. One belief is reasonable, one is not (religion). Your argument is simply equivocation.

P.S. I wonder if Diana can honestly say she's read the bible with an open mind. If she reads the bible assuming that god exists, then she has already made her mind up. If she reads it, with the presumption that god's existence is unknown, and that the bible is only possible true, not actually, then that may be said to be an open mind.

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