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Wednesday, October 31, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?

by Edmund Standing, ButterfliesAndWheels.com

Thanks to Mark Barratt for the link.

Also see this page in our 'Debate Points' section of the website:
That's not MY God or Religion you're criticising

Reposted from:
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=280

Recently, the popular and successful books of atheist authors such as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens having been receiving some public criticism from religious quarters, with the most recent coming from Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury. According to Williams, in their discussions of Christianity, the religion critiqued by Dawkins, Hitchens and others is not a religion he recognises as his own, and these authors are arrogantly and erroneously trying to tell Christian believers 'I know what you mean' when in fact they don't, which is apparently 'annoying' him. The basic claim from Williams and others is that these atheist writers simply haven't taken the time to properly study what it is they are writing against, and they should study some theology and address the 'real arguments'. Given the fact that I have studied theology and attained a BA in Theology & Religious Studies with First Class Honours, I presume Williams would not claim that I have no idea what I'm talking about, yet I still concur with the conclusions of Dawkins and Hitchens.

In the following article, I shall briefly outline the basics of Christian belief, and using his own words demonstrate what Williams holds to be true. My conclusion is that Dawkins and co have not failed miserably in their representation of the Christian faith, and that their lack of in-depth theological study in fact does nothing to harm the veracity of their arguments.

First, let's take a quick look at the basic biblical narrative:

There is an indescribably powerful and intelligent being called God who is in existence prior to the dawn of time. For whatever reason, he decides to create the universe and pays particular attention to planet Earth. Having created the universe, Earth and all the species on it (through 'creating' the Big Bang and 'guiding' evolution in the Williams style of interpretation), he decides to focus all his attention on a collection of tribal groupings in the Middle East, in particular the Israelites who are his 'chosen people' and who he obsesses over, while apparently ignoring the rest of the world's population. He lays down numerous often primitive and arbitrary moral and ceremonial laws, then gets involved in inner tribal politics and land disputes, inciting acts of brutality, war crimes, genocide, and rape along the way. Fast forward to the Middle East under Roman occupation and God decides it's time to put in an appearance. By mystical means he comes to earth in human form, being born of a virgin. He becomes incarnate as a Jewish male and wanders around what is today Israel-Palestine, imparting pithy social commentary (but never giving any systematic explanation of how such ideas might be made politically useful), engaging in faith healing (removing 'demons' from people), magic tricks (such as walking on water and raising a dead man), and ranting on and on about sin, eternal punishment for the majority of the world's population, and the impending end of the world. He gets himself crucified, in order that he can sacrifice himself to himself for our good. A few days later he walks out of his tomb and wanders round with some of his followers (noticeably not bothering to make himself known to anyone but those who already believed in him), before 'ascending' into 'Heaven', to wait for the time when he will return to raise every human who has ever lived in bodily form for judgement, then cast most of us into a pit of fire and take a select few into his 'kingdom' for eternity where they will live happily ever after.

These are the basic building blocks upon which all Christian theology is constructed. Williams and others can protest that of course they don't really see things in such a simplistic and manifestly implausible way, but this narrative underpins the Bible, the Church creeds, liturgies, and centuries of theological speculation.

Williams claims that '[w]hen believers pick up Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, we may feel as we turn the pages: "This is not it. Whatever the religion being attacked here, it's not actually what I believe in"'. Perhaps we atheists have misread people like Williams, and maybe some deep profundity has been missed. So, let's look at what Williams claims to believe and see if that is the case.

Williams states that 'it would be utterly destructive and utterly wrong to declare from the pulpit what I did not in fact believe' and that 'offering for ordination entails taking the responsibility for the faith of the church, not just little bits of it'. What is 'the faith of the church'? Does it bear any relation to the crude narrative outlined above? The Nicene Creed is for many of the largest Christian denominations a unifying statement of faith, and emerged from early church debates about the nature of Christian faith. It is read by priests and congregations alike at every Sunday Eucharist. If Williams feels he can give assent to this document, which he clearly does as he is happy to join in its recitation and, as we have seen, he believes it would be 'utterly wrong' to proclaim something he does not believe to be true, then we can take it to be an accurate reflection of his view of reality.

Here is the Nicene Creed in full:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen

Here we have the basics that one must believe in order to be a Christian. This is the 'faith of the church', which Williams believes he is 'responsible' for proclaiming and defending. We see the story of a creator God who 'speaks' through the Israelite 'prophets', who places important and accurate information about the future in the 'Scriptures' (i.e. the Old Testament), a God who 'comes down' from and 'ascends' to what can only be an actual place called 'Heaven', who is born of a virgin mother, who was crucified 'for our sake', who rose from the dead, who is to return one day from 'Heaven' in order that he can 'raise' dead bodies back to life for 'judgement', and who will take believers into an eternal 'kingdom'. It is manifestly clear that I have not chosen to misread or misrepresent the alleged facts of Christianity, and that Dawkins or anyone else can quite reasonably read this statement of faith and decide whether or not he finds it to be plausible or fanciful, plainly fictitious nonsense.

A key allegation is that because the 'new atheists' haven't studied theology in any depth they cannot really know what they are talking about. Perhaps something important has been missed. Perhaps the Creed needs some theological reflection in order that its 'true meaning' can be discerned. Take Jesus' supposed resurrection, for example. Surely if Dawkins read theology he would understand that this should not be seen as a literal historical event entailing a dead body getting up and walking out of its tomb? Yet this is clearly not the case if one reads Williams' own words. Reacting to the suggestion of ultra-liberal American bishop John Shelby Spong that Williams surely doesn't really believe in walking corpses, Williams states that such a suggestion makes him 'quite cross', because:

I am genuinely a lot more conservative than he would like me to be. Take the Resurrection. I think he has said that of course I know what all the reputable scholars think on the subject and therefore when I talk about the risen body I must mean something other than the empty tomb. But I don't. I don't know how to persuade him but I really don't.

So, Williams does believe in walking corpses. But what about all this stuff about Jesus being God incarnate? Maybe if Dawkins and co read theology they would find that a more creative, poetic, and less literal interpretation is proposed by the likes of Williams. Again, it would seem not:

Some of the fundamental patterns of Christian teaching - the creation of the world from nothing, the utter involvement of God and Jesus Christ and the Spirit - they are to me the grammar of anything we might say. I'm not impressed when anyone says we ought to be creative about those; they are what create us, they are the realities that make it possible for us to be the human beings God wants us to be. I can't imagine wanting to be creative in respect to them any more than I could with the air I breathe.

One is led to ask again how exactly Dawkins and others have supposedly set up a straw man caricature of Christian faith, how Williams can feel that '[w]hatever the religion being attacked here, it's not actually what I believe in', given his clear assent to the notions outlined in the Creed.

At this point I should briefly concede that in order for certain aspects of the Creed to be fully understood, at least a cursory reading of Patristic theology is a necessary undertaking. Some of the phrases do have a very technical meaning, and were arrived at through an often heated process of debate. Three examples that particularly stand out are the following concepts: 'eternally begotten of the Father', 'of one Being with the Father', and 'who proceeds from the Father and the Son'. However, the core message of Christianity is not dependant on such theological obscurantism and pedantry. These phrases are derived from later reflection on what I have termed the building blocks of Christian faith. It is not necessary to understand the theological musings of early church thinkers in order to discount the underlying message of a virgin birth, demons and angels, miracles, a divine blood sacrifice, walking corpses, and heaven and hell as nonsense. Here we see a clear example of the very nature of theology, and why its study is genuinely unnecessary for Christian faith to be rejected. In principle, one should be able to judge the alleged truths of Christianity based on the biblical narratives alone, for all later theological reflection is grounded in the assumption that these narratives are an accurate reflection of world history and ultimate reality. Take out these narratives and the whole theological edifice comes tumbling down. In theology, one will find centuries of attempts by intelligent men and women to make their manifestly irrational beliefs appear logical and coherent, but it's all based on the same few key beliefs.

The essence of theology is neatly summed up in a well known definition given by St. Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109): fides quaerens intellectum (faith seeking understanding). In fact, as a theological student, this was the first definition of theology that I was taught. The notion of 'faith seeking understanding' demonstrates clearly how intellectually vacuous theology is, and how low its credibility should be as an academic pursuit (in the sense of actively engaging in its production, as opposed to its purely academic study as part of the history of ideas). Theology turns the scientific method which we have followed since the Enlightenment upon its head. Where scientific research may start with a reasonable proposition based on prior evidence (a hypothesis) and then examine further data to see if this proposition is factually accurate, or may simply lead to the discovery of data which no-one had previously predicted, theology starts with the acceptance of ideas that have no factual basis or for which the evidence is appallingly weak and proudly proclaims acceptance of these ideas on the basis of 'faith' as a virtue, and then goes on to attempt to make these a priori beliefs appear intelligible and rational. In other words, the 'results' of theology have been arrived at before study to confirm them has taken place. The theologian does not approach the basic tenets of Christian faith as possible truths to be tested for logical consistency; he or she instead begins with the conclusion that a series of internally incoherent, pre-scientific, and fantastic 'beliefs' derived from 'faith' are true, and then attempts to dress these beliefs up in the clothes of intellectual credibility. Theology is not in this sense a proper academic pursuit, but is instead the attempt to mask superstition in a fog of pseudo-intellectual verbiage. Williams is good at this. We already know what he believes about God, Jesus, and so on from his own words and from his assent to church doctrine, but then when speaking publicly he attempts to muddy the waters with vapid rhetoric such as the following from his recent lecture:

The religious believer says that moral integrity, self-introspection, honesty and trust are styles of living that connect with the character of an eternal and free agency, the agency most religions call God. Agree or disagree, but I would say to critics, at least grasp what is being talked about. Often the atheist seems to be talking about something else.

No, Dr Williams, the atheist is not 'talking about something else', but the very beliefs you proclaim to be true. Dressing up Christian ideas about God in language such as 'an eternal and free agency' is nothing but the creation of a smokescreen of meaningless jargon in an attempt to make superstition appear sophisticated.

It seems highly likely from the words of Williams that he himself has not bothered to read the writings he claims to be criticising. It seems amazing that he can blandly relate Christian belief to 'moral integrity, self-introspection, honesty and trust', without engaging with Dawkins' sharp critiques of the notion of religiously and biblically derived morality in The God Delusion. What we seem to be seeing is the replaying of a centuries old argument so weak that even a school child should be able to unpick it - the notion that belief in God is integrally linked to ethical standards, with its implication that atheists are somehow unable to be moral because they don't believe in a divine watchman who will one day bring judgement upon us.

Have Dawkins, Hitchens, and numerous other atheist thinkers grossly misrepresented Christianity? Can Christian believers justifiably claim that the religion they find written of by such thinkers is something other than the one they at least pay lip service to? No, and no, again. Must Dawkins and others undertake an arduous trawling through centuries of theological waffle in order to reject religious belief? Absolutely not.

The claims of Williams and others like him are nothing more than knee-jerk reactions against rationalism. They complain that their faith is being misunderstood when it seems that they themselves are the ones who are misrepresenting what they actually believe. How the Archbishop of Canterbury, a man who by his own admission believes in all the core teachings of the Christian faith, can claim that atheist critiques avoid the so-called 'real arguments' is beyond me. The fact is, there are no 'real arguments'. Theology is at bottom a matter of faith, not genuine intellectual argument. Theologians can continue to write endless books and articles using dense and 'learned' tones, but there really is no need for atheists to read them as they all boil down to the same ultimate beliefs, beliefs that atheists, quite rightly in my view, reject on the basis that they do not have intellectual or moral credibility.

Edmund Standing holds a BA in Theology & Religious Studies and an MA in Critical & Cultural Theory

See more articles at ButterfliesAndWheels.com

Comments 1 - 50 of 581 |

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1. Comment #83821 by crazy4blues on October 31, 2007 at 12:03 pm

 avatarFinally, an answer to the "That's not MY religion" statement! Nice article!

Other Comments by crazy4blues

2. Comment #83823 by USA_Limey on October 31, 2007 at 12:06 pm

 avatarExcellent article and underlines the importance of asking a theist what they actually believe if you engage them in debate.

Forget arguments about what caused the big bang or the first cause of life. Get down and dirty with the dogma; ultimately it is their weakest card.

Other Comments by USA_Limey

3. Comment #83825 by Geoff on October 31, 2007 at 12:11 pm

 avatarExcellent article.

I'm waiting for the "well, he's obviously not a REAL theologian" responses from the theodrivellers.

Other Comments by Geoff

4. Comment #83826 by BicycleRepairMan on October 31, 2007 at 12:11 pm

 avatarThank You.

Excellent article, that argument needed a good beating, and many fine punches can be observed

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

5. Comment #83830 by mummymonkey on October 31, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Excellent. The courtiers reply demolished.

Other Comments by mummymonkey

6. Comment #83833 by notbadfora human on October 31, 2007 at 12:32 pm

 avatarJust wonderful.

I've often listened to the debates and wanted the McGraths and DeSouza's of the world to be pinned down on these fundamentals every time, but they seem to be able to slip away with vacuosity, and diversion ("well, what I would want to say in reply might go something like...").

Questions about morality, ethical teachings etc are all open to philosophical bullshitting, but these core beliefs are dogma and indefensible.

Other Comments by notbadfora human

7. Comment #83836 by clunkclickeverytrip on October 31, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Beautifully written aggressive article. I'm book-marking this one.
What is a "new atheist"? I'm sure Sam Harris doesn't approve. If there's one thing worse than the label "atheist", it's the label "new atheist".

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

8. Comment #83839 by Matt7895 on October 31, 2007 at 12:53 pm

 avatar"We should devote as much time to studying serious theology as we devote to studying serious fairies and serious unicorns."
Richard Dawkins

Other Comments by Matt7895

9. Comment #83847 by BAEOZ on October 31, 2007 at 1:08 pm

 avatarThat's an article I've been waiting to read for ages. Someone who's suffered through theology and telling it like we already surmised. It's crap. He can't be dismissed as being unlettered in theology. :)

Other Comments by BAEOZ

10. Comment #83848 by SonOfPearl on October 31, 2007 at 1:09 pm

I don't comment much on articles here, but this one deserves a comment simply to say that it is outstanding!

Other Comments by SonOfPearl

11. Comment #83861 by wardsie on October 31, 2007 at 1:46 pm

 avatarIf Rowan Williams believes that it is necessary to study theology to gain a sufficient understanding of Christianity in order to criticise it, shouldn't it also be true in order to believe in Christian doctrine?
I wonder what proportion of his Lordship's congregation have done any theological study at all.

Other Comments by wardsie

12. Comment #83862 by themanchoo on October 31, 2007 at 1:49 pm

Excellent article... I might just read it again!

Other Comments by themanchoo

13. Comment #83864 by STLstrike3 on October 31, 2007 at 1:49 pm

 avatarPoetry. Sweet poetry.

Other Comments by STLstrike3

14. Comment #83867 by FreeThink25 on October 31, 2007 at 1:51 pm

My goodness, Edmund Standing....bravo. What a thorough dismantling of the concept of theology!

Edmund Ass-Kicking more like it....

Other Comments by FreeThink25

15. Comment #83873 by Logicel on October 31, 2007 at 2:04 pm

 avatarExcellent article, and I have ranked it so (don't forget to rank this one--RANK THIS ARTICLE icon is right under the article).

Other Comments by Logicel

16. Comment #83877 by Bertybob on October 31, 2007 at 2:10 pm

 avatarExcellent article. As crisp and clear as anything RD might have written.

If "New Atheism" is as potent as "New Labour" was after the Conservative Government, then religion should be afraid, very afraid.

Although Sam may wince at the term, I think it could soon develop as a "badge" of rational, critical and non-respectful people. It may get "respectability" in it's own right.

Other Comments by Bertybob

17. Comment #83878 by Vendetta on October 31, 2007 at 2:11 pm

 avatarBravo!

Other Comments by Vendetta

18. Comment #83895 by DNAproduct on October 31, 2007 at 3:15 pm

 avatarWardsie:

Excellent point, and one that I personally haven't heard before, at least not in one concise sentence.
If the beliefs of what I call the "Wal-Mart Christians", those who really have no idea what they're worshipping, can't be counted as beliefs of the church, then shouldn't the church refuse their money and support? That would be the honest thing to do.

Other Comments by DNAproduct

19. Comment #83896 by joekoz451 on October 31, 2007 at 3:17 pm

If Rowan Williams believes that it is necessary to study theology to gain a sufficient understanding of Christianity in order to criticise it


... perhaps a counter argument would be that one should study the arguments of those who don't believe as thoroughly before presuming to argue against the absence of belief? It becomes apparent reading the rantings of the faith-based that they haven't done their homework; that is, actually reading the arguments that are unsympathetic to their imaginary friends.

To paraphrase George Orwell's "1984" (but not by much):

"Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to [religion], and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity."

(I substituted "religion" for Orwell's "Ingsoc". Emphasis added.)

Other Comments by joekoz451

20. Comment #83897 by JerryD385 on October 31, 2007 at 3:28 pm

After speaking to many American Roman Catholics (as I was raised as one), most of them don't even think about what the Nicene creed means (most of it). It gives them a nice warm feeling, chanting it every week with 100 or so other people. Inquire what they (the moderates, mind you) really believe about God, and you get that watered down garbage about eternal and infinite consciousness pervading our spiritual blah blah blah.

Its a smoke screen, and I am reminded of the linguistic diarrhea that is post modernist writing (Dawkins "Post modernism Disrobed" being a great article, by the way)

Other Comments by JerryD385

21. Comment #83898 by Friend Giskard on October 31, 2007 at 3:29 pm

 avatarI wonder how Edmund Standing feels about having wasted three years of his life studying this shit.

Other Comments by Friend Giskard

22. Comment #83903 by PaulJ on October 31, 2007 at 3:41 pm

 avatarWell, that about wraps it up for "not my religion."

What a breath of fresh air!

Other Comments by PaulJ

23. Comment #83904 by Pete_C on October 31, 2007 at 3:41 pm

Nice quote, joekoz451...

Protective stupidity is exactly how I would characterize, e.g., Alister McGrath's debating style. He does not for a second let his brain engage with the arguments against his religion; I think because somehow his unconscious knows that if that happened, it would be all over.

Other Comments by Pete_C

24. Comment #83907 by Buddha on October 31, 2007 at 3:44 pm

 avatarThis is one of the best articles posted here in a long time. I was almost wincing at the end of each sentence. I'm glad I'm not Rowan Williams - it would have been awful to have been on the receiving end of that intellectual kicking.

Other Comments by Buddha

25. Comment #83911 by clatz on October 31, 2007 at 4:02 pm

 avatarSuperb.

Other Comments by clatz

26. Comment #83914 by monoape on October 31, 2007 at 4:10 pm

 avatarMarvellous. If only we could get every theist to read this out aloud repeatedly until each argument was seared in to their conscious as much as the religious indoctrination they suffered as children.

Talking of "new atheists" (comment #7), I came across a new one (for me): "world-class "atheists"" (sic - gawd knows why the 'atheists' got quoted) - see http://www.townhall.com/columnists/JanetMLaRue/2007/10/30/faithful_atheists ... the comments are a riot, as well.

Comment #16 - Yes, I could grow to like the label 'New Atheist' ... especially if it consigns 'Brights' to the dustbin of well-intentioned-but-really-rather-crap-ideas (which gave me cause to wince when I saw a large banner of it behind the lectern in the recent AAI videos).

Who knows, 'New Atheism' could attract those who believe that 'old' atheism is nothing more than Satan-worship and orgies in the forest? Hmmm, actually that old-style atheism is sounding tempting as well. Decisions, decisions.

Other Comments by monoape

27. Comment #83922 by steve99 on October 31, 2007 at 4:41 pm

 avatarAn excellent article. This should be a major resource.

Other Comments by steve99

28. Comment #83926 by phil rimmer on October 31, 2007 at 5:00 pm

 avatarDelicious article.

Edmund Standing holds a BA in Theology & Religious Studies and an MA in Critical & Cultural Theory


At least his education moved on to some more useful areas. We owe him for his earlier sacrifice.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

29. Comment #83927 by Jack Rawlinson on October 31, 2007 at 5:00 pm

 avatarWilliams? PWN3D!

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

30. Comment #83931 by rev on October 31, 2007 at 5:11 pm

Good Edmund, very very good.

Other Comments by rev

31. Comment #83936 by Zakie Chan on October 31, 2007 at 5:31 pm

 avatarQUALITY!! What an excellent article!

Jack Rawlinson (#83927), I couldnt have said it better myself. Pure pwnage!!

Other Comments by Zakie Chan

32. Comment #83938 by Lauregon on October 31, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Of course, our friend Dianelos has recently seemed to find amusing my idea that what the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope says is necessarily theism.

But this is a real keeper article, and I'm jealous as hell that I didn't write it.

Other Comments by Lauregon

33. Comment #83939 by clunkclickeverytrip on October 31, 2007 at 5:56 pm

In further thinking about this, the only thing that would have made this article even better would have been an explicit inclusion of Islam and Judaism (they are, of course, implicitly included).
But that's just nit-picking...

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

34. Comment #83953 by Fire1974 on October 31, 2007 at 7:46 pm

EXCELLENT!!!
In my favorites. Can't wait to read it again.
This is precisely the approach Hitchens needed against D'souza.
That little weasel hid behind so much obscurity it was like watching Hitchens catch flies with chopsticks.

Other Comments by Fire1974

35. Comment #83959 by Teratornis on October 31, 2007 at 10:40 pm

 avatarI am still wondering how the theists who protest "That's not MY religion" expect Prof. Dawkins et al. to answer for Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot, as if that's OUR atheism.

Actually I do think atheists need to do better than simply recite some standard denial about Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot (just as I think it is perfectly fair for religious "moderates" to seriously confront the uglier products of faith - it stands to reason that if you're going to promote something, you should think about all the possible results it can generate). Given that science is steadily undermining religion and exposing it for the massive fraud it is, we must be very, very sure that whatever role some religions may have played in keeping tyrants out of work is going to be picked up by something else once religion finally collapses.

If Christianity really is even partly responsible for making nations like the United States nicer places than nations like North Korea, just as Santa Claus stories may have improved the behavior of generations of unruly children, then it is rather alarming that we owe our safety to a belief system nearly devoid of any supporting evidence (just as it is alarming that so many parents find it easier to lie to their children to get them to behave). I'd like our defense against totalitarianism to be based on something a bit more solid, so we don't have to sacrifice our rationality to maintain it.

It's reassuring that we don't see largely secularized nations like Sweden and Norway sliding into despotism, but it would be considerably more reassuring if we had a convincing theory to explain exactly what makes them different than North Korea, along with some reliable methods for maintaining that difference.

Ref.:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

Other Comments by Teratornis

36. Comment #83967 by nother person on October 31, 2007 at 11:41 pm

Teratornis, it seems to me that this is much more of a problem for idealists than it is for materialists. If I believed that memes played a larger role in shaping reality than material conditions (for lack of a better term) I might share you concern. But allow me to suggest that vast natural resources and slave labor played a larger role in making the U.S. a 'nice place to live' (except for the slaves!) than any religious memes. I do not deny memes their power but I do think a study of the different material conditions of Sweden and North Korea would give you the explanation you seek. Which is not to say we will not someday find ourselves in a most uncomfortable despotism. Just that, should we arrive there, it will not be for loss of religion.

Other Comments by nother person

37. Comment #83971 by BT Murtagh on October 31, 2007 at 11:53 pm

 avatarThis is the money quote for me:
In principle, one should be able to judge the alleged truths of Christianity based on the biblical narratives alone, for all later theological reflection is grounded in the assumption that these narratives are an accurate reflection of world history and ultimate reality.

As for saying "that's not my atheism" to Mao, Stalin and Pol Pot, that's a different arena. It's the one Hitchens addresses in god is Not Great, i.e. the supposed utility of religion rather than its truth value, which is the focus of Dawkins's The God Delusion (Harris's The End of Faith straddles the two.)

The theist's argument is always that atheism doesn't prevent evil; the response is that religion doesn't either, and frequently causes it. As Weinberg said, for good people to do bad things requires religion - Hitchens likes to use the example that it would never even occur to an atheist that taking a sharp stone to an infant's genitalia is a good idea.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

38. Comment #84009 by asupcb on November 1, 2007 at 2:04 am

An excellent article. I hope that others will rate it. I'm going to share in the AANR group on facebook if no one else has already.

I direct this to nother person. This is strictly my opinion and you can take it for what it is. I would argue that it takes more than just good natural resources to make a country prosperous it takes a political philosophy and government based on enlightenment principles, some form of market based capitalism (some forms are better than others), private property and a general respect for upholding contractual relations (so long as they obey the laws of the land and are not entered into based upon fraudulent knowledge), and a desire to enter into trade with other nations and an avoidance of overtly isolationist/protectionist practices. You shouldn't ask what is the difference between Sweden and North Korea but what is the difference between North and South Korea? This will lead you toward a more accurate answer. Or why is it that an island nation such as the UK which has fewer natural resources than many other countries became at one time one of the most powerful empires to ever exist in our history? It's empire is one reason but I think the larger issue is that they understood that trade was positive for their country in the long run and they tended to trade more than other more protectionist nations on the continent. This is of course a vast oversimplification but it is an interesting line of thought none the less when thinking about why some countries are better off than others.

Also slavery did not make the United States a nicer place to live for anyone. Slavery is a bad economic system. It places more wealth in the hands of the plantation owners than could exist otherwise in a free market due to the disparities it causes in prices for the products they produce and the effects upon wages in areas where it is legally allowed. Slavery is part of the reason the South did not industrialize as quickly as the North. Also slavery caused farmers in the South to be poorer than their neighbors to the North in the long run due to the nefarious effects that Slavery (and segregation) has upon local economies.

The North became America's bread basket without the need for slaves and the same could have happened in the South as well without slavery. In fact the nation as a whole would have been far better off if our founders had demanded that slavery be ended in the US at our beginning due to the negative effects it had in undermining everyone's freedoms and our nation's economy in the long run but unfortunately economics was a new field then and they were unable to foresee the very damning consequences of their actions in this regard. Slavery and segregation also further undermine savings and capital accumulation as well which further damages an economy in the long run. In short slavery is only a good economic system for people at the top and not for a society in general.

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39. Comment #84014 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 2:36 am

I would just like to remind everyone here that the fact that the writer of the article has a First Class Honours degree in theology does not automatically lend any greater credibility to his arguments than they would have otherwise. He may indeed know what he is talking about, but then so do all those others who have likewise obtained similarly impressive qualifications but who have not arrived at the same conclusions as he has. Or is he alone in "knowing what he is talking about" by virtue of his anti-theistic conclusions? Anyone who says yes has given the game away. The point is that what gives anyone any kind of intellectual credibility in the eyes of the new atheist community is above all else the fact that they have donned the uniform of the anti-theistic militants. There is something ironic about the fact that the "insights" of Edmund Standing are being celebrated by people who would claim that his degree in theology is actually not worth the paper that it is written on. Certainly it would not be, and his insights would be similarly worthless, had he arrived at different conclusions in the course of his study, as many equally and more brilliant minds have done.

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40. Comment #84032 by Ford Prefect on November 1, 2007 at 3:22 am

ADH
I think your missing the point. Of course people who have studied theology have come to a different conclusion. However the inference of critics of Dawkins et al is that if they had studied theology there is no way they could come to the conclusions they have.
You can argue that theology is worthless, but that the study of it is useful, just to show how worthless the subject is.
If you don't agree with Standing it would be useful to hear your arguments.

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41. Comment #84092 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 6:34 am

Ford Perfect, how useful is it to spend four years or more studying a subject which you have already decided is worthless anyway? More importantly, will not such an approach to an area of knowledge necessarily skew your analysis before you even begin? If you embark on the study of a "worthless" subject then of course your study of it will confirm you in that opinion, because your mind was already made up anyway. Anyone who studies a subject must necessarily begin with an inherent respect for their chosen subject. That would seem to me to be a sine qua non. Otherwise the conclusion that it is "worthless" would seem, to me at least, itself to be worthless.

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42. Comment #84104 by tieInterceptor on November 1, 2007 at 7:12 am

 avatarexcelent article,

clear thinking and logic at it's best.

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43. Comment #84111 by SilentMike on November 1, 2007 at 7:25 am

Good article. A good answer to the "It's not my God you're denying" crowd.

If you believe in any of this nonesense then it is your god I'm denying. If not, then what the hell is your god and why should I take him seriously?

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44. Comment #84113 by dvespertilio on November 1, 2007 at 7:30 am

I was raised as a roman catholic, recited the Creed on Sundays, like all good catholics and was deeply conflicted about what it said for years. I, too, ultimately went to university and majored in Religious Studies and Philosophy. I graduated with honors. I fully concur with Standings' conclusions. It's all right there in the scriptures and the creeds. Either it makes sense and is intelligible in terms of a scientific, rational world view, or it does not. At this time, in the early 21st century, any thinking, well-educated individual knows for certain that christian scriptures are clearly an amalgam of mythology, outdated philosophy and metaphysics, and peculiar, religiously based ethics. They cannot possibly be the basis for any rational discourse or decision-making in a world such as ours. Think about it: the species, Homo sapiens, is perhaps 200,000 years old; civilization is perhaps 10,000-12,000 years old, at most. Modern science is, at most, only 400-500 years old. I would submit that science, for better or worse, has done more to transform the world in practical, visible and powerful ways than all the religions of the world have done in more than 20,000 years. And science is just getting started. Whether we like it or not, we are here and owe our existence to the scientific revolution of the past several centuries, and our continued existence in the future depends vitally upon the extension of gains obtained from that same knowledge. As imperfect as the world may be, what sane, rational person would prefer to return to the sort of existence a literal, religious world view would yield? I firmly believe that the vast majority of so-called believers are, when closely questioned, basically practical atheists in the actual living of their daily lives. They only cling to their outmoded belief systems because of early indoctrination, personal desires and fears, and, quite often, for personal gain. There is, after all, quite a lot of money to be made in organized religion, even if you don't really believe in it. I could point out several mega churches in my neighborhood that aptly demonstrate this.

But back to the article.... all in all, very to the point, and very well written. Should be a point for discussion with all so called "christian moderates".

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45. Comment #84123 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 8:09 am

I would argue that a scientific worldview, or rather an entirely science oriented world view, will indeed help to implement moral reform with great efficiency. But contrary to the opinions which predominate on this site, it will not and cannot offer suffiecient reasons for carrying out such reform in the first place. A moral climate which stands in need of reform is one where the weak are at the mercy of the strong, where they are left without a defense against the physical or economic, or indeed spiritual, "power" of those who would use them to their own advantage. Many atheists, I have no hesitation in saying, ight energetically in favour of the weak and defenceless. But they do not find their "grounding" for doing so within the parameters of a scientiic world view. Why do they do it? Common human decency is the reason most frequently advanced. Excellent. But "common human decency" does not arise out of the materialistic, evolutionary, survival-driven process.

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46. Comment #84126 by SRWB on November 1, 2007 at 8:30 am

But "common human decency" does not arise out of the materialistic, evolutionary, survival-driven process.


No? Are you sure? If we still lived in pre-industrial, pre-agricultural, hunter-gatherer societies, would your concepts of decency, worth and usefulness not be different than they are now? If everything you do, every action you perform, is about you and your immediate kin surviving until tomorrow, is that not very different than the sort of decisions we typically face in this day and age? The reasons we have "common human decency" today is because we (that is most societies) can afford to take the time, and have the financial, infrastructure and social resources to put them into place. In short, most modern societies can focus on other issues beyond mere survival, and that allows concepts like "common human decency" to flourish.

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47. Comment #84136 by steveroot on November 1, 2007 at 9:08 am

 avatar
21. Comment #83898 by Friend Giskard on October 31, 2007 at 3:29 pm
I wonder how Edmund Standing feels about having wasted three years of his life studying this shit.

I wouldn't call that time "wasted"! If I could spend three years preparing to write something so cogent, I would consider it time well-spent.
Steve

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48. Comment #84145 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 9:36 am

"No? Are you sure? If we still lived in pre-industrial, pre-agricultural, hunter-gatherer societies, would your concepts of decency, worth and usefulness not be different than they are now? If everything you do, every action you perform, is about you and your immediate kin surviving until tomorrow, is that not very different than the sort of decisions we typically face in this day and age? The reasons we have "common human decency" today is because we (that is most societies) can afford to take the time, and have the financial, infrastructure and social resources to put them into place. In short, most modern societies can focus on other issues beyond mere survival, and that allows concepts like "common human decency" to flourish."

My dear fellow I am sure I am not the only one, even on this thread, who would regard this statement as crass chronological snobbery. So you really believe that the further we travel along the road leading away from these so-called primitive "pre-industrial" societies the more capable we are becoming of human decency! Socrates' dictum (later echoed and surpassed by Christ) "do not do onto others what you would not like them to do to you) was then rather out of place in the pre-industrial age in which he lived, was it not? I am quite sure that many examples of what we would now admire as "decent" and generous and altruistic could be found (if we had the tools for accessing the evidence) among the "hunters and gatherers" that you so glibly write off as "primitive". "Common human decency" refers to behaviour which we can safely assume to be common to the human species, not limited to those "lucky" enough to have been born after the industrial reolution! It is behaviour which (as you yourself suggest) transcends our survival oriented instinct. It is behaviour which has been rightly celebrated as "noble" and "public-spitited" and which has often involved a choice NOT TO surrender to the dictates of these instincts.

Your statement also suggests not only that early humans were incapable of "decency" but also that modern humans are uniquely capable of it. I suggest that that second idea also fies in the face of all the available evidence. The 20th century will not go down in history as a century when human decency, on the whole, prevailed over barbarism. Or maybe you have access to more enlightened historiography than the rest of us. If so, I apologise for my ignorance.

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49. Comment #84161 by pizza-gut on November 1, 2007 at 10:30 am

ADH "common human decency" does indeed arise out of evolutionary processes. As hunter-gatherers, humans are pretty useless individually. Thus our survival was dependant upon developing processes of co-operation. This was achieved via neural mutations that facilitated feelings of in group empathy, preventing free loader behaviours. Individuals and groups that developed these behaviours became more successful hunters and as such, the genes and concommitant behaviours survived into future generations.

As for your rejection of the relevance of Standing's theological qualifications to the validity of his conclusions; theists repeatedly slam atheist criticisms as not being based upon a sound theological grounding. Now we have an atheist who does have a sound theological grounding and his assertions are rebuked because his rationalist outlook would have coloured his understanding of the theology! By this rationale the only people qualiifed to criticise religion would be theists with an understanding of theology!

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50. Comment #84169 by SRWB on November 1, 2007 at 10:58 am

So you really believe that the further we travel along the road leading away from these so-called primitive "pre-industrial" societies the more capable we are becoming of human decency! Socrates' dictum (later echoed and surpassed by Christ) "do not do onto others what you would not like them to do to you) was then rather out of place in the pre-industrial age in which he lived, was it not?

As a general rule, such a sentiment was out of place! Would you seriously argue that the prevailing conditions of life throughout most of the world, i.e., standard of living, were better in Socrates' time? The story of human evolution and history itself arguably make this an unlikely proposition. And it's not about "being more capable"; it's about the prevailing conditions during those times (some of which still exist in parts of the world today).
I am quite sure that many examples of what we would now admire as "decent" and generous and altruistic could be found (if we had the tools for accessing the evidence) among the "hunters and gatherers" that you so glibly write off as "primitive".

and
Your statement also suggests not only that early humans were incapable of "decency" but also that modern humans are uniquely capable of it.

I didn't say that there were no examples of decent, altruistic behaviour, among such peoples, nor did I say that "common human decency" didn't exist in pre-modern times. My point was that times were different, and that today we are rather fortunate that we can undoubtedly expend more time and energy in pursuing altruism and other forms of philanthropy. As evidence from my "more enlightened historiography", I cite trends of increased democracy, rule of law, human rights, secularism, etc, at least in the western world. Again this is a general statement and not one that is true in every instance (before you again put words in my mouth). Besides I didn't write anyone off as "primitive" as I never used the word, nor did I suggest that "early humans were incapable of "decency" but also that modern humans are uniquely capable of it". I personally don't see "primitive" as a "glibly" insulting term to use in describing those people that lived thousands of years ago. It merely sets up a comparative scale which is useful to those like us who can peck out wordy debates on computers in our warm and cozy homes or offices, instead of having to expend all our energy just trying to survive.
The 20th century will not go down in history as a century when human decency, on the whole, prevailed over barbarism.

While I don't dispute that the 20th C had its moments, you would still be hard pressed to not find many examples of "common human decency", altruism and doing unto others, just like in every other century before.

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