









Are the 'New Atheists' avoiding the 'real arguments'?We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen
I am genuinely a lot more conservative than he would like me to be. Take the Resurrection. I think he has said that of course I know what all the reputable scholars think on the subject and therefore when I talk about the risen body I must mean something other than the empty tomb. But I don't. I don't know how to persuade him but I really don't.
Some of the fundamental patterns of Christian teaching - the creation of the world from nothing, the utter involvement of God and Jesus Christ and the Spirit - they are to me the grammar of anything we might say. I'm not impressed when anyone says we ought to be creative about those; they are what create us, they are the realities that make it possible for us to be the human beings God wants us to be. I can't imagine wanting to be creative in respect to them any more than I could with the air I breathe.
The religious believer says that moral integrity, self-introspection, honesty and trust are styles of living that connect with the character of an eternal and free agency, the agency most religions call God. Agree or disagree, but I would say to critics, at least grasp what is being talked about. Often the atheist seems to be talking about something else.
2. Comment #83823 by USA_Limey on October 31, 2007 at 12:06 pm
3. Comment #83825 by Geoff on October 31, 2007 at 12:11 pm
4. Comment #83826 by BicycleRepairMan on October 31, 2007 at 12:11 pm
5. Comment #83830 by mummymonkey on October 31, 2007 at 12:24 pm
Excellent. The courtiers reply demolished.6. Comment #83833 by notbadfora human on October 31, 2007 at 12:32 pm
7. Comment #83836 by clunkclickeverytrip on October 31, 2007 at 12:38 pm
Beautifully written aggressive article. I'm book-marking this one.8. Comment #83839 by Matt7895 on October 31, 2007 at 12:53 pm
"We should devote as much time to studying serious theology as we devote to studying serious fairies and serious unicorns."9. Comment #83847 by BAEOZ on October 31, 2007 at 1:08 pm
10. Comment #83848 by SonOfPearl on October 31, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I don't comment much on articles here, but this one deserves a comment simply to say that it is outstanding!11. Comment #83861 by wardsie on October 31, 2007 at 1:46 pm
12. Comment #83862 by themanchoo on October 31, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Excellent article... I might just read it again!13. Comment #83864 by STLstrike3 on October 31, 2007 at 1:49 pm
14. Comment #83867 by FreeThink25 on October 31, 2007 at 1:51 pm
My goodness, Edmund Standing....bravo. What a thorough dismantling of the concept of theology!15. Comment #83873 by Logicel on October 31, 2007 at 2:04 pm
16. Comment #83877 by Bertybob on October 31, 2007 at 2:10 pm
18. Comment #83895 by DNAproduct on October 31, 2007 at 3:15 pm
19. Comment #83896 by joekoz451 on October 31, 2007 at 3:17 pm
If Rowan Williams believes that it is necessary to study theology to gain a sufficient understanding of Christianity in order to criticise it
20. Comment #83897 by JerryD385 on October 31, 2007 at 3:28 pm
After speaking to many American Roman Catholics (as I was raised as one), most of them don't even think about what the Nicene creed means (most of it). It gives them a nice warm feeling, chanting it every week with 100 or so other people. Inquire what they (the moderates, mind you) really believe about God, and you get that watered down garbage about eternal and infinite consciousness pervading our spiritual blah blah blah.21. Comment #83898 by Friend Giskard on October 31, 2007 at 3:29 pm
22. Comment #83903 by PaulJ on October 31, 2007 at 3:41 pm
23. Comment #83904 by Pete_C on October 31, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Nice quote, joekoz451...24. Comment #83907 by Buddha on October 31, 2007 at 3:44 pm
26. Comment #83914 by monoape on October 31, 2007 at 4:10 pm
27. Comment #83922 by steve99 on October 31, 2007 at 4:41 pm
28. Comment #83926 by phil rimmer on October 31, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Edmund Standing holds a BA in Theology & Religious Studies and an MA in Critical & Cultural Theory
29. Comment #83927 by Jack Rawlinson on October 31, 2007 at 5:00 pm
30. Comment #83931 by rev on October 31, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Good Edmund, very very good.31. Comment #83936 by Zakie Chan on October 31, 2007 at 5:31 pm
32. Comment #83938 by Lauregon on October 31, 2007 at 5:46 pm
Of course, our friend Dianelos has recently seemed to find amusing my idea that what the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Pope says is necessarily theism.33. Comment #83939 by clunkclickeverytrip on October 31, 2007 at 5:56 pm
In further thinking about this, the only thing that would have made this article even better would have been an explicit inclusion of Islam and Judaism (they are, of course, implicitly included).34. Comment #83953 by Fire1974 on October 31, 2007 at 7:46 pm
EXCELLENT!!!35. Comment #83959 by Teratornis on October 31, 2007 at 10:40 pm
36. Comment #83967 by nother person on October 31, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Teratornis, it seems to me that this is much more of a problem for idealists than it is for materialists. If I believed that memes played a larger role in shaping reality than material conditions (for lack of a better term) I might share you concern. But allow me to suggest that vast natural resources and slave labor played a larger role in making the U.S. a 'nice place to live' (except for the slaves!) than any religious memes. I do not deny memes their power but I do think a study of the different material conditions of Sweden and North Korea would give you the explanation you seek. Which is not to say we will not someday find ourselves in a most uncomfortable despotism. Just that, should we arrive there, it will not be for loss of religion.37. Comment #83971 by BT Murtagh on October 31, 2007 at 11:53 pm
In principle, one should be able to judge the alleged truths of Christianity based on the biblical narratives alone, for all later theological reflection is grounded in the assumption that these narratives are an accurate reflection of world history and ultimate reality.
38. Comment #84009 by asupcb on November 1, 2007 at 2:04 am
An excellent article. I hope that others will rate it. I'm going to share in the AANR group on facebook if no one else has already.39. Comment #84014 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 2:36 am
I would just like to remind everyone here that the fact that the writer of the article has a First Class Honours degree in theology does not automatically lend any greater credibility to his arguments than they would have otherwise. He may indeed know what he is talking about, but then so do all those others who have likewise obtained similarly impressive qualifications but who have not arrived at the same conclusions as he has. Or is he alone in "knowing what he is talking about" by virtue of his anti-theistic conclusions? Anyone who says yes has given the game away. The point is that what gives anyone any kind of intellectual credibility in the eyes of the new atheist community is above all else the fact that they have donned the uniform of the anti-theistic militants. There is something ironic about the fact that the "insights" of Edmund Standing are being celebrated by people who would claim that his degree in theology is actually not worth the paper that it is written on. Certainly it would not be, and his insights would be similarly worthless, had he arrived at different conclusions in the course of his study, as many equally and more brilliant minds have done.40. Comment #84032 by Ford Prefect on November 1, 2007 at 3:22 am
ADH41. Comment #84092 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 6:34 am
Ford Perfect, how useful is it to spend four years or more studying a subject which you have already decided is worthless anyway? More importantly, will not such an approach to an area of knowledge necessarily skew your analysis before you even begin? If you embark on the study of a "worthless" subject then of course your study of it will confirm you in that opinion, because your mind was already made up anyway. Anyone who studies a subject must necessarily begin with an inherent respect for their chosen subject. That would seem to me to be a sine qua non. Otherwise the conclusion that it is "worthless" would seem, to me at least, itself to be worthless.42. Comment #84104 by tieInterceptor on November 1, 2007 at 7:12 am
43. Comment #84111 by SilentMike on November 1, 2007 at 7:25 am
Good article. A good answer to the "It's not my God you're denying" crowd.44. Comment #84113 by dvespertilio on November 1, 2007 at 7:30 am
I was raised as a roman catholic, recited the Creed on Sundays, like all good catholics and was deeply conflicted about what it said for years. I, too, ultimately went to university and majored in Religious Studies and Philosophy. I graduated with honors. I fully concur with Standings' conclusions. It's all right there in the scriptures and the creeds. Either it makes sense and is intelligible in terms of a scientific, rational world view, or it does not. At this time, in the early 21st century, any thinking, well-educated individual knows for certain that christian scriptures are clearly an amalgam of mythology, outdated philosophy and metaphysics, and peculiar, religiously based ethics. They cannot possibly be the basis for any rational discourse or decision-making in a world such as ours. Think about it: the species, Homo sapiens, is perhaps 200,000 years old; civilization is perhaps 10,000-12,000 years old, at most. Modern science is, at most, only 400-500 years old. I would submit that science, for better or worse, has done more to transform the world in practical, visible and powerful ways than all the religions of the world have done in more than 20,000 years. And science is just getting started. Whether we like it or not, we are here and owe our existence to the scientific revolution of the past several centuries, and our continued existence in the future depends vitally upon the extension of gains obtained from that same knowledge. As imperfect as the world may be, what sane, rational person would prefer to return to the sort of existence a literal, religious world view would yield? I firmly believe that the vast majority of so-called believers are, when closely questioned, basically practical atheists in the actual living of their daily lives. They only cling to their outmoded belief systems because of early indoctrination, personal desires and fears, and, quite often, for personal gain. There is, after all, quite a lot of money to be made in organized religion, even if you don't really believe in it. I could point out several mega churches in my neighborhood that aptly demonstrate this.45. Comment #84123 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 8:09 am
I would argue that a scientific worldview, or rather an entirely science oriented world view, will indeed help to implement moral reform with great efficiency. But contrary to the opinions which predominate on this site, it will not and cannot offer suffiecient reasons for carrying out such reform in the first place. A moral climate which stands in need of reform is one where the weak are at the mercy of the strong, where they are left without a defense against the physical or economic, or indeed spiritual, "power" of those who would use them to their own advantage. Many atheists, I have no hesitation in saying, ight energetically in favour of the weak and defenceless. But they do not find their "grounding" for doing so within the parameters of a scientiic world view. Why do they do it? Common human decency is the reason most frequently advanced. Excellent. But "common human decency" does not arise out of the materialistic, evolutionary, survival-driven process.46. Comment #84126 by SRWB on November 1, 2007 at 8:30 am
But "common human decency" does not arise out of the materialistic, evolutionary, survival-driven process.
47. Comment #84136 by steveroot on November 1, 2007 at 9:08 am
21. Comment #83898 by Friend Giskard on October 31, 2007 at 3:29 pm
I wonder how Edmund Standing feels about having wasted three years of his life studying this shit.
48. Comment #84145 by ADH on November 1, 2007 at 9:36 am
"No? Are you sure? If we still lived in pre-industrial, pre-agricultural, hunter-gatherer societies, would your concepts of decency, worth and usefulness not be different than they are now? If everything you do, every action you perform, is about you and your immediate kin surviving until tomorrow, is that not very different than the sort of decisions we typically face in this day and age? The reasons we have "common human decency" today is because we (that is most societies) can afford to take the time, and have the financial, infrastructure and social resources to put them into place. In short, most modern societies can focus on other issues beyond mere survival, and that allows concepts like "common human decency" to flourish."49. Comment #84161 by pizza-gut on November 1, 2007 at 10:30 am
ADH "common human decency" does indeed arise out of evolutionary processes. As hunter-gatherers, humans are pretty useless individually. Thus our survival was dependant upon developing processes of co-operation. This was achieved via neural mutations that facilitated feelings of in group empathy, preventing free loader behaviours. Individuals and groups that developed these behaviours became more successful hunters and as such, the genes and concommitant behaviours survived into future generations.50. Comment #84169 by SRWB on November 1, 2007 at 10:58 am
So you really believe that the further we travel along the road leading away from these so-called primitive "pre-industrial" societies the more capable we are becoming of human decency! Socrates' dictum (later echoed and surpassed by Christ) "do not do onto others what you would not like them to do to you) was then rather out of place in the pre-industrial age in which he lived, was it not?
I am quite sure that many examples of what we would now admire as "decent" and generous and altruistic could be found (if we had the tools for accessing the evidence) among the "hunters and gatherers" that you so glibly write off as "primitive".
Your statement also suggests not only that early humans were incapable of "decency" but also that modern humans are uniquely capable of it.
The 20th century will not go down in history as a century when human decency, on the whole, prevailed over barbarism.
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1. Comment #83821 by crazy4blues on October 31, 2007 at 12:03 pm
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