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Saturday, November 10, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Can we at least demand 'Secular Communion'?

by PZ Myers, Pharyngula

Reposted from:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/11/can_we_at_least_demand_secular.php

PZHere's another provocative article from the New Humanist titled "Holy Communion", a critique of two of the "New Atheists". It has an incredibly offensive illustration to go with it, but the article isn't quite that bad. It's not that good, either.

First, I have to confess: I'm not a humanist. I'm just not that keen on defining myself by my species, and I'm not going to join a group that willfully excludes squid. Still, I sympathize with the aims of secular humanism and I'm willing to work alongside them, just as I'm willing to work with reasonable Christians and Muslims — I'm just not ever going to be one of them, and I'm not going to hold fire and abstain from criticizing them.

And this article has much to criticize. It begins with an explanation that the New Atheism isn't new and has been around for centuries, something we'd all agree on — I've never been keen on the term myself. I think it traces back to a Gary Wolf article in Wired that labeled Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett as the leaders of this movement, an article I didn't care for. Richard Norman in the New Humanist puts a new twist on it, though: it's the same old atheism and "we need to beware of fighting old battles in a world which has moved on". It has? Maybe from the perspective of Europe it has, but here in America, the world has moved backwards.

Further evidence of a skewed perspective comes in the next paragraph: "What kick-started the New Atheism was, of course, the attack on the Twin Towers." Complete nonsense, especially after we've just been told that the New Atheism traces its heritage back to the 18th century. We proponents of atheism have our roots in ideas established well before 9/11; I don't know anyone who was confronted by a terrorist attack and decided now was the time to make an intellectual break from prior religious traditions. And the only "of course" is the events that happened afterwards: an electorate that consoled itself with religious platitudes and rushed to favor any pious politician willing to wallop a bible. The "New Atheism" did not arise out of revulsion to Islamic extremism, but as a counter to growing public irrationality. The reason it has taken off to such a degree in America is because this is where that irrationality has been most firmly rooted and so prominently displayed. Remember, this is the country where Pat Robertson was considered a viable presidential candidate…in 1988. If you want to find the source that kick-started the New Atheism, you're going to have to look well before 2001.

The article then tries to identify a second development that triggered the atheist surge, and pins it on creationism. That's a little closer to the mark. Again, this is old stuff; there has been no sudden resurgence of creationism in the US, merely a long series of flare-ups that have been plaguing the country since the Scopes trial, exacerbated by the reluctance of proponents of science to tangle with the root cause, religion. I entered middle school at the time of Epperson v. Arkansas, I entered grad school to the tune of McLean v. Arkansas, I got to follow Ewards v. Aguillard while finishing up my thesis. Isn't it about time we got mad at this incessant idiocy from the ignorant religious apologists of our country?

Norman finally gets around to expressing his complaint against the New Atheists: they over-generalize. They damn religion without considering the breadth of religious experience, ignoring the fact that there are virtues to religion, or that certain religious beliefs may not be subject to their peculiar disdain. He singles out Hitchens and Dawkins, but I'll narrow it further to just Dawkins; Norman finds these quotes objectionable.

I do everything in my power to warn people against faith itself, not just against so-called 'extremist' faith. The teachings of 'moderate' religion, though not extremist in themselves, are an open invitation to extremism.

Fundamentalist religion is hell-bent on ruining the scientific education of young minds. Non-fundamentalist, 'sensible' religion may not be doing that, but it is making the world safe for fundamentalism by teaching children ... that unquestioning faith is a virtue.


I don't think Norman would like me at all, because I find both quotes too moderate. I'm not worried that moderate religion might lead to extremism, I find moderate religion itself to be too credulous, too lacking in intellectual rigor, too obeisant to the dull, dumb stupidity of "faith" to be an institution we should encourage. Even if it could be shown that being a calm Methodist can't ever lead to becoming a bomb-throwing radical (and I wouldn't be at all surprised if many religions were shown to be more soporific than inflammatory), it doesn't mean we should excuse these mainstream, temperate religions from criticism. Norman has been led seriously astray by his premise that the New Atheists are fired up against Islamic terrorism — personally, I'm fired up by the fact that religions have been spending millennia hammering the brains of thinking human beings into a dopey stupefaction like that of domesticated sheep.

Norman's rebuttal is to equivocate about the meaning of "faith". Reach deep into the reservoir of the dictionary, plumb the ambiguities of the English language, and sure, you can pretend that holding a religious belief is equivalent to accepting evolutionary theory. You just have to ignore the reliance on evidence and reason, and the willingness to revise ideas on the basis of new evidence, that is the hallmark of the provisional, critical acceptance of a science — a set of values that are absent in religion. The scientific view is not that one must accept the truth of evolution to be a scientist — it's that one has to follow the evidence whereever it may lead, to whatever conclusion best fits reality. We do not accept evolution because we personally enjoy the notion that we are the lucky products of undirected chance in an uncaring universe, but because that somewhat chilling answer is where the facts lead us.

Norman rebuts Hitchens by arguing against what he calls the "headcount argument", that familiar line where proponents of one side or another tally up the number of historical fatalities or atrocities perpetrated by the other side, and declares victory on the basis of the other's propensity for murder. I agree entirely with Norman on this: it's a bad argument. Human beings have always done the full measure of both good and evil, and we can't blame it simplistically on their religious beliefs, especially since for the bulk of human history every one was religious to some degree. I am confident that if we could magically erase all religion from the Middle East, for example, and turn every Muslim, Jew, and Christian in that region to a rational atheist, they'd still be killing each other. We'd remove some particularly silly obstacles to reconciliation (who'd care about the religious significance of the Dome of the Rock any more?), but there'd still be plenty of historical and political and economic and social causes for war. Religion is a pretext that sharpens boundaries, nothing more.

But this does not excuse religion. I mean, science is a method that promises to improve our understanding of the natural world, and is constantly producing results: deeper knowledge of basic mechanisms, and material outcomes that create iPods and spaceships and microwave ovens and vaccines. It works, and it demonstrates its success within the terms of its domain. Religion claims to be a method that maps the human heart, that produces stability and contentment and soul-fulfilling reverence, and leads to immortality in an afterlife where the good are rewarded and the evil are punished. It fails in its own terms. None of what it promises can be demonstrated, and the plethora of different religions all make different and often contradictory promises. It certainly doesn't seem to be promoting peace, love, and understanding, and those conflicting claims are often barriers to reconciliation.

I don't condemn religion because it causes extremism or evil actions. I condemn it because it is so bloodily and thrice-damned ineffectual at doing what it claims to do. Religion is an incompetent guiding philosophy, unifying principle, source of solace and wisdom, whatever screwy virtue you want to imagine it represents. All it seems to excel at is driving people to make excuses for its failures.

Norman concludes in a strange, and I think conflicted, way, asking everyone to put aside their differences on religion to work together. Besides being insipid, I disagree.

We have problems enough in the world. The threats of climate change, global poverty, war and repression and intolerance can never be countered unless we are prepared to work together on the basis of a shared humanity. Simplistic generalisations about religion don't help. In Dawkins's terminology, that means working with the "moderates" to counter the "extremists", but it's actually more complicated than that. Some of our allies against creationism may be deeply prejudiced against gays. Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists. Some of the Muslim allies we need to counter Islamist violence may have deeply sexist attitudes to women. It all demonstrates what a deeply contradictory phenomenon religion is. But we know that. And if religion is so contradictory, that's probably because human beings are a deeply contradictory species.


Here's a better idea: work together on common causes without silencing our disagreements. Norman even points out that Dawkins joined with the Bishop of Oxford to protest the promulgation of faith-based schools in Britain — does anyone think for an instant that that means Dawkins suddenly found transubstantiation to be a reasonable hypothesis? Of course not. I've seen Norman's line of reasoning a lot, and it makes this false presupposition that the atheists are incapable of working together with their fellow human beings because they also find fault with their flawed religious beliefs. We can do both! Watch us — where we find common goals, we will work together without a pang of regret; and where we disagree, we will forcefully argue. That's the way our world works. Get used to it.

It's a useful attitude to take. Unlike Mr Norman, we can work with someone against creationism without feeling compelled to avoid confronting their anti-gay bigotry. We can join with someone to combat Islamic extremism without overlooking moderate Islamic sexism. Perhaps Norman didn't intend this, but I read his conclusion and see a set of excuses for ignoring injustices; if I were a woman, for instance, I'd be bothered that he's saying we have to prioritize and fight intolerance, among other things, yet one of the things he's saying we ought be willing to set aside is disagreement over how Islam treats women. This is not how I want to face the problems of the world, with a selective filter that allows me to minimize issues as long as they are defended by the pretext that an imaginary man in the sky says it must be so.

Right now, I'm in Washington D.C. to work with Americans United for Separation of Church and State. I am completely behind their goals, and think they are an eminently commendable organization. Yet many of the people in this organization (including the head!) are religious to varying degrees! Does this mean I must moderate my contempt for religion? Hell, no. If the Rev. Barry Lynn asks me what I think about his religion, don't expect me to get all mealy-mouthed. But we're here for a different job, one where atheists and believers can agree, and I don't expect a battle over that irrelevant issue. That's how we work together.

At the same time that I can cooperate with AU, I can still urge everyone to throw off the shackles of their superstition, however. And I will, as will Dawkins, and Hitchens, and Harris, and the growing polity of outspoken atheists. I can also hope that many of the self-identifying Humanists will found common cause with us on that.

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1. Comment #86843 by mumbles on November 10, 2007 at 9:39 am

 avatar"Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists."

Cut them some slack! They've brought innumerable yummy bibles to starving Africa.

So we're supposed to not call them on their BS?

Other Comments by mumbles

2. Comment #86846 by Vendetta on November 10, 2007 at 9:42 am

 avatar
Norman's line of reasoning...makes this false presupposition that the atheists are incapable of working together with their fellow human beings because they also find fault with their flawed religious beliefs. We can do both! Watch us — where we find common goals, we will work together without a pang of regret; and where we disagree, we will forcefully argue. That's the way our world works. Get used to it.


I agree, PZ. It reminds me of the parable of the sinking ship.

http://www.ishmael.org/Education/Parables/SinkingShip.shtml

Other Comments by Vendetta

3. Comment #86853 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 10:12 am

 avatarBravo PZ, exactly what I was thinking!

Though I do find it a somewhat delicious irony: a humanist claiming that we can only further the goals of humanism by ignoring the very argumentative contentiousness that he flagged up only a few paragraphs earlier as a cornerstone of our human nature...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

4. Comment #86859 by maton100 on November 10, 2007 at 10:36 am

 avatarRight on, brother. Have a great weekend in DC.

Other Comments by maton100

5. Comment #86861 by PrimeNumbers on November 10, 2007 at 10:40 am

 avatarI think we all know where a policy of appeasement leads....

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

6. Comment #86867 by Shaker on November 10, 2007 at 10:49 am

 avatarRegarding the illustration that accompanies the article referred to, it's offensive but only from an artistic point of view, i.e. it's simply dreadful and a shockingly bad attempt at a caricature of Prof. Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, neither of whom I'd have recognised had the article not been about the so-called 'new atheists'. I thought you were supposed to know who a caricature is of?

Other Comments by Shaker

7. Comment #86868 by Zakie Chan on November 10, 2007 at 10:52 am

 avatar"All it [religion] seems to excel at is driving people to make excuses for its failures."

Amen to that haha!

Other Comments by Zakie Chan

8. Comment #86869 by RoryCalhone on November 10, 2007 at 10:57 am

 avatarPZ makes a good point. An anti-creationist homophobe is not going to stop being an anti-creationist because an atheist calls him out on his Christianity inspired homophobia.

In Dawkins's terminology, that means working with the "moderates" to counter the "extremists", but it's actually more complicated than that...

...Some of the best people working to combat global poverty may be Catholic anti-abortionists.

Err no, I will attack their faith, because if anything they are contributing to global poverty (Particularly if they are against contraception, which I imagine they would be).

Other Comments by RoryCalhone

9. Comment #86879 by Nusmus on November 10, 2007 at 11:14 am

"I think we all know where a policy of appeasement leads.... "

Wow, this sounds like President Bush talking about his reasons for invading Iraq. I find people here strongly believe in the myth of Pure Evil.

And I find it idiotic that PZ cares too much about SQUID to call himself a humanist. For such a retarded statement as that, I doubt he's even seriously thought it through, and just doesn't like humanists and would rather nanny-nanny boo-boo them.

PZ seems upset initially because of a skewed perspective. Little does he understand that the very idea of perspective demands that you come from a specific angle. Skewed is just his code word for "biased," but since he doesn't have any evidence towards that claim, he disguises it as skewing.

Next, he insinuates that this article encourages religious moderates. Bullshit. In a situation where there the only practical choices are "evil," we must pick the lesser of the two and work with our strange bedfellows. They wouldn't be atheists if they wanted to encourage people to become religious moderates. It's simply a stage in a process towards leaving religion behind, and PZ is too wrapped up in his idealism to be practical and choose the correct, moral approach which is picking the lesser of two evils so that we can eventually create a godless world.

"Here's a better idea: work together on common causes without silencing our disagreements." You cannot work together while focusing on disagreements. That doesn't mean we should forget we have serious disagreements, it means at times we should censor ourselves in the moment to achieve a socio political goal.

Diplomacy is a dance of give and take. We are very much engaged in a type of diplomacy here, and if we are unwilling to give a little, we cannot get concessions of our own. All this means is BITE YOUR DAMN TONGUES SOMETIMES and sit at the table!

Other Comments by Nusmus

10. Comment #86880 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 11:14 am

 avatar"I'm not a humanist. I'm just not that keen on defining myself by my species, and I'm not going to join a group that willfully excludes squid."

That's really a bad argument. You don't have to like the word "humanist" to be one. Modern humanists are normally not centered around humans, they very well acknowledge that humans are animals too. It very often are the humanists who call for animal rights.

Just the same with "brights". You don't have to like the word to be of the opinion that a naturalist movement that fights for the rights of naturalists on a democratic and voluntary basis is a good idea.

I would even say it is incredibly childish to come up again and again with such ridiculous semantic details, when it's really about something else and far more important.

Other Comments by The author

11. Comment #86885 by shmooth on November 10, 2007 at 11:18 am

 avatarwhy anyone would be afraid of being called a 'humanist', i have no idea, but these days i'd call myself a 'Humanist'.

you should check it out.
http://www.humanists.org/

there might even be a group near you:
Google Map

there is a canada map, too.

here is a link to the AHA:
http://www.americanhumanist.org/

and, a definition:

"Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism and other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good of humanity."

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12. Comment #86898 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 11:51 am

 avatarI think Myers' dislike for the term "humanist" is almost entirely semantic actually - it is, after all, a very broad term that has different meanings to different people in different contexts. From his writings it is abundantly clear that most of the values he espouses would be recognised by the majority of humanists as a part of their own moral philosophy.

The squid comment is clearly a joke - PZ is obsessed with marine cephalopods and they form an ongoing comedic trope on his Pharyngula blog - but from the context it seems also to be a nod to the perceived speciesist overtones of the term "humanist". Dawkins alludes to these in several places too. For someone who is so deeply involved in animal biology, rather than someone taking his cues directly from the history of renaissance and enlightenment thought, it is perhaps a natural conclusion to arrive at.

I don't really use the term humanist to describe myself either, but it is probably the label which best fits in many circumstances, and I'm happy to be identified with it in opposition to those for whom god, not man, is the primary object of our moral, political and philosophical contemplation.
As a medievalist I am of course legally required to point out that the traditional view of the emergence of humanism in Renaissance Italy is a misleading and outdated piece of Burckhardtian Victoriana, so consider yourselves told.

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13. Comment #86906 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 12:14 pm

 avatar@ Cartomancer, comment above:

"As a medievalist I am of course legally required to point out that the traditional view of the emergence of humanism in Renaissance Italy is a misleading and outdated piece of Burckhardtian Victoriana"

Surely, the sources lie in ancient greek philosophy, yet they were transmitted to Europe by the humanists. What's wrong with that?

Other Comments by The author

14. Comment #86918 by notsobad on November 10, 2007 at 12:42 pm

 avatarSo what, he doesn't like labels, good for him.

Other Comments by notsobad

15. Comment #86936 by black wolf on November 10, 2007 at 1:18 pm

 avatarNorman is correct in pointing out that things aren't black and white (most of the time). But between the lines, the recommendation of alliances with faith-based groups also implies that argumentation from secular scientific humanism isn't persuasive enough to stand on its own merit. While this is probably true regarding the vast majority of believers across the globe, I hope getting a foot in the door by gradually reforming education and consistently reminding the more-or-less uneducated populace whose thinking they owe their relative progress and luxury to, will start a socially broad process. No good and lasting effect has ever been achieved by hasty activism, and again I can only hope that Sam Harris' gloomy 'prophecy' of doom via extremism doesn't prove to wear the superiorily designed running shoes.

p.s. I feel the urge to pat my own back for the above. not bad for a non-native speaker, eh? ;)

Other Comments by black wolf

16. Comment #86942 by pzmyers on November 10, 2007 at 1:36 pm

 avatarI think Nusmus and "the author" need to go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on their heads until they grow a sense of humor.

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17. Comment #86947 by The author on November 10, 2007 at 1:53 pm

 avatar@ pzmyers, comment above

"I think Nusmus and "the author" need to go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on their heads until they grow a sense of humor."

Well, if two otherwise reasonable persons misunderstand a point you make, perhaps you didn't make that point sufficiently clear? I think there are surely more people than just the two of us who didn't "get it". Although, after all these discussions I had with theologians, it became harder and harder to seperate what people really think and what they merely intend as a joke.

Yet beside from that we perfectly agree, I'm even thinking about translating that article into German, if you don't mind, it's pretty good.

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18. Comment #86953 by Nusmus on November 10, 2007 at 2:01 pm

I might laugh if I didn't think this issue revolves around something that is deadly serious: as we are unable to persuade people into atheism, the world suffers terribly.

And being dicks to those whom we wish to persuade only extends the anguish.

Other Comments by Nusmus

19. Comment #86958 by Donald on November 10, 2007 at 2:44 pm

Well, that was a surprise.

After getting used to finding myself in agreement with PZ Myers, and applauding his outspokenness in demolishing nonsense and supporting rational thought, things change. I now discover he disdains humanism and "he won't join a group that wilfully excludes squid". [Ha ha, but I am not amused at the implied attack on humanism.] Also that he "won't refrain from criticising [humanists, reasonable Christians & reasonable Muslims]".

Oh dear. He manages to demean humanists as a group because he doesn't like an article by Richard Norman. Worse, his wording creates an implied association of humanists with "reasonable Christians" and "reasonable Muslims".

Perhaps his usual clarity has deserted him, and he merely meant that he won't refrain from criticising certain people just because they happen to be humanists, reasonable Christians or reasonable Muslims. But I suspect not. I suspect his clarity of expression is at its usual high level, and he meant to say and imply exactly what I read.

Well, I support humanism. I support most movements that are engaged in countering religious influence, ignorance, dogma, and belief in the supernatural.

If PZ feels he has nothing better to do this week than criticise an article by a long-standing humanist who is, in essence, on the same side in the struggle for education, truth against ignorance, and human values against religious dogma, so be it, but I don't take kindly to his side swipes at humanists in general. Humanists do not belong in category together with "reasonable Christians and Muslims".

And I hope PZ can find a more deserving target for his next blog entry.

Other Comments by Donald

20. Comment #86964 by Pythagoras on November 10, 2007 at 5:33 pm

I enjoy a robust debate, but this is getting silly.

One of the reasons that religion exists is because we have a natural tendency towards an "us and them" mentality. The fact that religions exploit and inflame this tendency is one of the major problems with religion. There also seems to be ample evidence of this mentality here. It reminds me of the scene from the Life of Brian with the Judean People's Front and the People's Front of Judea. http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/brian/brian-07.htm

I can understand people getting upset about the unflattering cartoon, but putting that aside, Richard Norman makes some valid points, even if, as PZ rightly points out, his arguments are not as strong as they could be. I don't think anybody is saying that faith is a good thing per se, but refusing to cooperate with people who have different views to ourselves is counter-productive. I'm not saying that we should not be critical of religious moderates, but we should not be critical of them simply for being "religious moderates", we should be critical of the individual irrational beliefs that they hold. Saying "All religion is bad and religious moderates are stupid and irrational" is just not productive and simply not true either. Moderate religions are a step in the right direction and religious moderates should be encouraged to continue the process and keep the good bits of religions (like promotion of community, kindness and charitable works) and discard the bad bits (like morality based on the dictates of mythical deities).

I think this is a major point that Sam Harris has been trying to make, that we should be fighting one issue at a time and not necessarily under the banner of atheism or any other such label. Take one issue like the Catholic Church's stance against the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. There are many religious folks, including many Catholics who are opposed to this. I think nearly every atheist, agnostic, humanist, bright etc would be in agreement on this issue, and we should put aside our petty squabbles and make alliances with whoever else agrees with us to fight that kind or irresponsible stupidity.

I think there is a place for labels in raising awareness, but we should focus on the issues and not get so hung up on the labels and petty "doctrinal differences" that we use them to divide ourselves from each other and from our allies.

One other point: I don't agree with Mr Myers that 9/11 wasn't a major factor, if not the main motivator in the recent popularity of atheism. I've read many many forum posts by atheists such as myself who say that 9/11 was the catalyst for them becoming active about atheism. I've been an atheist for over 20 years, but I hadn't given religion much thought until 9/11. Perhaps US atheists have other reasons as well, but 9/11 has got to be right up there.

I'll try submitting this for the second time. Most of my posts seem to disappear.

Regards,
Pythagoras

Other Comments by Pythagoras

21. Comment #86965 by Janus on November 10, 2007 at 5:34 pm

 avatar
Here's a better idea: work together on common causes without silencing our disagreements.


Yes. Yes!! YESSSSSS!!!!!!!

:O

Finally, someone said it!

Other Comments by Janus

22. Comment #86968 by anonquick on November 10, 2007 at 6:59 pm

Great article. The Mediocre as well as the Extreme can be a valid target of criticism.

This site needs to evolve to the next level - a platform that helps the proponents of reason perform COLLECTIVE acts of reason.

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23. Comment #86973 by Russell Blackford on November 10, 2007 at 7:19 pm

The trouble is that the world hasn't moved on, and it's not just in the US that it's gone backwards. Look at what has been happening in Europe with irrationalist opposition to new reproductive and genetic technologies. Admittedly, the UK is fairly enlightened on this ... but go and have a look at the new laws in Italy some time. Religious and quasi-religious encroachment on the public sphere is aggressive, confident, well-planned, and influential ... everywhere you look.

For me, the turning point wasn't so much 9/11. Well, it was important. But the widespread moral panic over the cloning of Dolly in 1996 (announced in early 1997) was what really started to alert me that we're going through the early years of a New Endarkenment: that irrationalism of an essentially religious kind was making a huge comeback, and that liberal political principles were (and remain) under serious threat.

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24. Comment #86974 by darlets on November 10, 2007 at 7:28 pm

For the first time in Australia we have a Secular Party running in the election. One of their policies it to tax churches.

I'm curious how the moderates are going to perceive that policy. Will it make them dig in their heels more or really make them choose sides?

It's going to be interesting to watch the response from the moderates when the policy and party become more widely known.

"Religious institutions receive significant advantages in terms of tax exemptions and benefits. At the same time these institutions are largely unaccountable for their receipt and distribution of funds. The policy of the Secular Party is to end these religious tax exemptions and subsidies. This will benefit the average taxpayer and a level playing field will be provided for all charities."

http://www.secular.org.au/PolicyDetails.php

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25. Comment #86975 by paulwwww on November 10, 2007 at 7:44 pm

All I have to say is thank you for that piece!!! You're a hell of a guy PZ Myers!!! I was agnostic for the first 40 years thanks to my father and for the last 4 plus years step well into the boundaries of atheism. This atheist movement is very very far from its beginnings and I agree so much with the following statement;

"I've seen Norman's line of reasoning a lot, and it makes this false presupposition that the atheists are incapable of working together with their fellow human beings because they also find fault with their flawed religious beliefs. We can do both! Watch us — where we find common goals, we will work together without a pang of regret; and where we disagree, we will forcefully argue. That's the way our world works. Get used to it."

Brilliant!!! (I saw other posts commending this line of reasoning as well, also brilliant!)

If only we could get more of the moderate (oh I would rather avoid this discussion because it will create tension) religious common folk to not walk away from these arguments.

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26. Comment #86977 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 8:26 pm

 avatarThe author, comment #13,

"Surely, the sources lie in ancient greek philosophy, yet they were transmitted to Europe by the humanists. What's wrong with that?"

Well, it depends what you mean by "the humanists". The word was only really used in its modern context in the nineteenth century, the word umanista used in fifteenth century Italy simply meant a teacher of classical literature. Yes, it is true that the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries did see the development of significant new cultural forms that acquired the name "Renaissance", and this is where the traditional model of historical development has seen the origins of "humanistic" thinking. In Jakob Burckhardt's classic nineteenth century formulation these were the "discovery of the individual", the appreciation of nature and aesthetics and the move in scholarship from a narrowly logical focus on patristic and biblical works to a more literary appreciation of the Greek and Latin classics. It is "humanistic" because it glories in the abilities and achievements of human cultures, human individuality and the human mind rather than in the "medieval" or scholastic preoccupations with societal hierarchy and the divine universal.

This model began with Petrarch's coining of the term "dark ages" and a conscious rejection by renaissance thinkers of a self-defined medieval "other". Their enlightenment and victorian inheritors perpetuated the antipathy of the European intellectual elite toward the middle ages, casting them as a period of sterile godbothering backwardness, and it remains the distorted stereotype we encounter all too commonly today. Serious medieval intellectual history is actually a comparatively young discipline that began in the early decades of the twentieth century with men such as Charles Homer Haskins.

Anyway, a century of study into the history of the period has confirmed that the traditional division of history into ancient, medieval and modern is far too simplistic. As far as the transmission of Greek philosophy is concerned the process most certainly did not begin with renaissance humanists. Historians now point to earlier "Carolingian" and twelfth-century "renaissances" when significant translation activity took place and the intellectual climate of europe was changed drastically. In the twelfth century for instance almost the entire aristotelian corpus was recovered, as were Plato's Phaedo and Meno, all of Ptolemaic and Arabic astronomy, the late antique medical tradition, Euclid's mathematics, the neoplatonic writings of Proclus and Plotinus and several other works. The Burckhardtian themes can be traced back well beyond the fifteenth century too - individualism, aesthetics and literary appreciation did not spring ex nihilo from the mind of Petrarch or the letters of Cicero he rediscovered. Just ask John of Salisbury, Walter of Chatillon, Suger of St. Denis or even Anselm. Of course medieval "humanism" (a term coined by the late, great Sir Richard Southern) differed from its quattrocento version, but there was no great moment of sea-change, no magic cut-off point when everyone suddenly realised what fools they had been for living in the middle ages, cast off their threadbare peasant smocks and started walking round in slashed pantaloons discussing republican theory and inventing gunpowder.

Instead it is better to see the development of ideas as a gradual change throughout the middle ages and renaissance periods. Of course there were times of quickening, but to ignore the medieval roots of humanism, science, or any other item of European and, I suspect, world culture is to unconsciously buy in to generations of uncritical anti-medieval self-definition. The truth is far more complicated than all that.

Finally, the idea of "sources" has to be treated in a more sophisticated manner. Simply having access to a new text is only a part of the story - people read these texts in very different ways depending on their cultural background, preoccupations, aims, wider reading and so forth. Similarly, people actively went out and found these texts - you don't go looking for such things unless you feel a pressing need for them which, by definition, cannot have come from the texts themselves.

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27. Comment #86978 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:38 pm

 avatarPZ, you've a right to be snarky about the "New Humanist" piece. That cartoon is vile.

Dawkins didn't have a stroke when that Southpark episode aired - the one where he's buggering a pre-op Mr. Garrison. So the drawing of him as girly-gay cheerleader with bad rosacia prolly won't kill him. Dawkins has likely figured out that pretending not to care scores more points than overt upset.

Southpark have to shit on everyone. But why would New Humanist take the piss from two strong allies?

My live-and-let-live attitude toward religion changed abruptly with 9/11.

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28. Comment #86981 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 8:48 pm

 avatarI thought the cartoon wasn't all that bad really. Grossly and exaggeratedly parodic perhaps, but then again that's what cartoons, and indeed satire in general, are for. Political cartoons are usually far worse than this. Maybe it's just me being of the Spitting Image generation, but I think it's something of a compliment to a public figure if they are the target of such light-hearted fun-poking.

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29. Comment #86985 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 8:58 pm

 avatarThe cover of that new flea book by Tina Somebody was fun-poking. This cartoon is aggressive and mean.

I reserve fat jokes for people I truly despise. And the Dawkins-is-a-fag meme might work in Mad Magazine, but is frankly embarassing in any publication for grown ups.

No accounting for taste I s'pose.

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30. Comment #86988 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:10 pm

 avatarPunch did far more biting and insulting satire for decades. Private Eye is much more cutting. I suspect it's a British thing...

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31. Comment #86989 by Dr Benway on November 10, 2007 at 9:19 pm

 avatarAren't the humanists our allies? Allies do friendly ribbing. They don't do "fuck you."

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32. Comment #86990 by Cartomancer on November 10, 2007 at 9:21 pm

 avatarAs I say, to my eyes it does come across as merely friendly ribbing.

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33. Comment #86994 by Teratornis on November 10, 2007 at 10:14 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #86942 by pzmyers:

I think Nusmus and "the author" need to go sit in a corner with a dunce cap on their heads until they grow a sense of humor.


Correction: not a sense of humor, but your sense of humor.

I've never met anyone who lacked a sense of humor, but most people seem to lack mine, particularly in its more self-serving, less self-aware aspects. For example, I've often found myself evaluating threats to my interests as sourly as this quote from the essay above, which beautifully illustrates the inescapably relative nature of humor:


"Holy Communion" ... has an incredibly offensive illustration to go with it ...


I looked at the illustration in question. I don't find it as funny as its author probably does (said author doubtlessly prescribes a dunce cap), but "offensive"? Wow. If I had to write a list of all the offensive things in the world, I'd be dead long before I reached cartoons. Here's hoping atheists can handle cartoons mocking "our men" with a bit more sangfroid than Muslims exhibit when they see a cartoon of their Prophet with a bomb on his head.

People who actually get paid to make strangers laugh - professional comedians - don't seem to be much in the habit of lecturing the audience when their jokes bomb. Although it would be interesting to see Carlos Mencia try it.

I'm only speculating, but I'd suspect the most successful comedians take an empirical rather than prescriptive approach to humor. I.e., instead of blaming the audience when a joke bombs, and telling the audience to refine its tastes, they probably keep trying different jokes until the audience starts to laugh. Assuming they can remain on stage long enough.

The most successful people in almost any field tend to keep what works and discard what doesn't. That is probably true even in religion - for example, every Christian disregards some large fraction of the commands in the Bible, and the particular fractions disregarded by the various denominations probably have something to do with what happened to be necessary within a particular religious tradition to keep the faithful coming back and donating money. I think almost any preacher could find himself preaching to an empty church if he insisted on emphasizing the parts of the Bible that happen to offend the people currently attending that church.


I am confident that if we could magically erase all religion from the Middle East, for example, and turn every Muslim, Jew, and Christian in that region to a rational atheist, they'd still be killing each other. We'd remove some particularly silly obstacles to reconciliation (who'd care about the religious significance of the Dome of the Rock any more?), but there'd still be plenty of historical and political and economic and social causes for war. Religion is a pretext that sharpens boundaries, nothing more.


Again I say wow. The world's best experts can't even predict the winners of tomorrow's professional sporting contests, and that's with detailed knowledge of the teams, coaches, players, statistics, tendencies, matchups, point spreads, etc. I'm not confident in predicting the future of Middle Eastern politics even if all the religious factors continue as they likely will.

I don't suppose it needs mentioning that if everybody currently in the Middle East were a rational atheist, the nation of Israel would suddenly lack its pretext for existing. It's a Zionist state, after all. Without religion to maintain their cultural identify, the European Jews who drove Zionism and created modern Israel probably would have assimilated and stayed in Europe, probably interbreeding with their "host" populations and losing their cultural identify (much as many immigrant groups in the United States have done or are in the process of doing). They certainly wouldn't have been persecuted for their religious beliefs if they didn't have any, and if their fellow Europeans didn't have any conflicting religious beliefs.

Rational atheists - if they were indeed rational - would realize they have much more to gain by trading with each other than by killing each other. Also note the mechanism of killing. Israel has overwhelming military superiority in its neighborhood, so the only effective way to attack it is with human missiles. Presumably, no rational atheist would be motivated to commit suicide in exchange for 72 virgins in the afterlife, and there went the weapon system for the weak side in the asymmetrical conflict.


Norman rebuts Hitchens by arguing against what he calls the "headcount argument", that familiar line where proponents of one side or another tally up the number of historical fatalities or atrocities perpetrated by the other side, and declares victory on the basis of the other's propensity for murder. I agree entirely with Norman on this: it's a bad argument.


It's a bad way to argue for the truth of either side's beliefs, but it's certainly an interesting way to argue about the potential consequences of either side's beliefs. I happen not to be very impressed by the "in the name of" defense that Prof. Dawkins makes. Sure, commies did not kill "in the name of" atheism, but at the same time we certainly see they found their atheism to be perfectly compatible with mass murder. While I don't see how atheism "leads to" such atrocities, I'd certainly feel better if atheism somehow prevented them. Clearly it does not.

One historical fact we don't hear the theists mention when they trot out Hitler and Stalin as their alleged examples of atheism (not even true in Hitler's case, of course, as he wasn't an atheist) is that we have Stalin to thank for defeating Hitler. Not only do we have Stalin to thank, but we (the western self-described Christian allies) shipped him vast quantities of war supplies to help him do it. 70% of Nazi Germany's casualties occurred on the eastern front, at the cost of 20 million Soviet deaths. Which is to say, as difficult as it was for the U.S. and Great Britain to inflict their 30% share, the cost would have been unimaginably higher (perhaps unattainably higher) had the forces of "atheism" not fought their Great Patriotic War.

Western support for Stalin was, of course, one of the most pointed examples in history of people putting aside their deep differences - temporarily, at least - to make common cause.

So, while theists are counting up commie atrocities, fairness requires that we issue the Soviets a very large credit for sacrificing 20 million of their own people to crush Hitler. Had it not been for the sacrifices of all those brave atheists, all of Europe might still be part of the Third Reich today.

Of course the incalculable debt owed by the West to Stalin was pretty much forgotten during the Cold War. But facts are facts, and we shouldn't let theists get away with creative accounting that ignores the millions of Christian and Jewish lives Stalin saved by stopping Hitler, at enormous cost in atheist lives. Not to mention the whopping endorsement given to Stalin by the West, keeping him in power at enormous expense, to fight Hitler.

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34. Comment #86995 by nother person on November 10, 2007 at 10:28 pm

I'm for hoisting the flag of criticism, but not simply for its own sake. I think PZ's article rocks! Norman put forth his best thinking—fair enough—and PZ put forth his, in my opinion, better thinking. Well the guy who goes second always has the advantage (but doesn't always make something of it). The point, for me, is that we kick around all the ideas and the best ones out. Of course, what I think is best may not be what you think is best... but you won't know if you don't hear them all.

The thing about criticism is, it has to be valid. I don't think that means it can't offend or hurt anyone's feelings. A 'critical' environment in which everyone is too scared to speak because someone (maybe a whole gang of some-ones) is going to pick part everything they say is atrocious. A lot of academia (from my admittedly outside-looking-in view) seems like this. One can't take a proper breath without being prepared to defend it. And a lot of theist arguments don't have any validity (they don't start out from a consideration of known and knowable reality—they give up that validity from the get-go).

I think PZ's criticisms are valid, and I don't like people saying he should be quiet because his ideas are maybe going to upset some notion they have of playing politics. But all I'm saying is I don't like it... I'm not telling you not to do it. Go ahead... put your idea out there too. In general there is some merit in recognizing divisiveness and trying to forestall it. But there is a serious question that needs to be addressed concerning just what is the more divisive—criticizing 'teammates' when you think you have a better idea, or trying to shut someone up and get them to tow your party line. In my personal experience nothing is more likely to create a faction than the later.

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35. Comment #87008 by Asta Kask on November 11, 2007 at 1:35 am

It's not a particularly offensive cartoon. It's not particularly funny either, but humor is a very difficult thing. But perhaps the atheist movement should start burning churches? :)

As for the question of cooperating with christians - if we agree on the issue, why not?

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36. Comment #87015 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 2:12 am

 avatar
It's not a particularly offensive cartoon.


Oh, it is. It is clearly trying to illustrate a link between the 'out' campaign for atheists and the campaign for gay rights (a valid link), by making Dawkins look like a figure of fun - a grinning limp-wristed effeminate.

It is offensive on so many levels:

It could be read as 'Dawkins is gay', which is a particularly nasty use of the word 'gay' here in the UK, meaning 'bad'.

It says 'look - Dawkins is funny because he is like a gay man'. In other words, gayness is something to laugh at.

It indicates gayness using stereotyping of what gay men are supposed to be like - safe, funny, effeminates. Stereotyping is offensive.

Imagine a cartoon which suggested Dawkins was black by having him with a huge afro, saying "Yassuh masser, I'm gonna lift dat barge, tote dat bail" and you get the idea of how offensive this cartoon will seem to some.

It is not offensive because it attacks Dawkins and Hitchens - that kind of cartooning has a long and distinguished history. It is offensive because of the way it does it.

No-one would dare laugh at race in a cartoon these days, but I guess that we gay people are still fair game.

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37. Comment #87017 by Vaal on November 11, 2007 at 2:22 am

 avatar"personally, I'm fired up by the fact that religions have been spending millennia hammering the brains of thinking human beings into a dopey stupefaction like that of domesticated sheep".

Pure genius!

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38. Comment #87026 by Cartomancer on November 11, 2007 at 3:13 am

 avatarsteve99, comment #36

Hmmm... well, maybe that interpretation does occur to some English people after all. (It's difficult to synchronise with this topic occurring on two threads at once)

To restate my opinion on the original thread where the cartoon is posted, I do not believe that Dawkins is being presented as a gay stereotype, rather his characteristic exhuberance and sense of wonder are being exaggerated.

There are, of course, gay rights overtones in the cartoon too however.

I'm not sure the race and sexuality cases are entirely analogous myself. The overt gay community has for a long time courted controversy and indulged in shameless self-parody. It's not every gay person's cup of tea, but camp comedy and ridiculously over-the-top portrayal of gay stereotypes have been some of the best weapons in the fight for acceptance. It seems there is definitely a sense that we can laugh at ourselves now and have avoided, for the most part, the kind of paranoia and persecution complex that often goes with such minority rights endeavours. We can afford to do this, in the main, because we are not a self-perpetuating community and our "culture", such that it is, is rarely central to our own identities in the way ethnic or religious communities' cultures are to their members' identities. We are also able, where they generally are not, to blend in quite easily if we so choose. Actually mature and confident ethnic communities do parody and send themselves up quite extensively as well - remember the Indian sketch show Goodness Gracious Me in the nineties? It's a complex phenomenon, and one over which an awful lot of ink has been spilled by queer theorists and their nutty postmodern ilk, but undoubtedly distinctions deserve to be drawn. In fact there is a debate among gay rights people in the uk at the moment over whether maintaining the otherness of "queer identity" is a valuable thing or not, and this is where the philosophies of groups like OutRage! differ from those of groups like Stonewall.

As far as the atheist Out campaign goes, I think that such a conscious borrowing from the gay original does make it a legitimate target for humourous comparison. In the UK and US public gay rights marches and so forth brashly display the camper, more frivolous aspects of gay "culture" such as drag queens, fetish wear and men in ridiculously small shorts - one cannot get away from this. The idea that atheists could or would want to indulge in anything similar is frankly preposterous, in Britain doubly so because we simply are not discriminated against and simply do not have the same sort of vibrant, over-the-top visual culture to put on display. Go somewhere like Latvia and the gay rights marches are sombre, serious affairs with none of the pomp and glamour. The battle is still very much in its opening stages there, a battle which we have largely won.

In short, to my jaded, bourgeois eyes at least, the gay community and its various tropes are pretty much mainstream cultural property in Britain these days and thus need no special treatment. I think it a sign of maturity that we can laugh at aspects of them now without feeling it threatens their very existence - that's why our predecessors were so voiciferous and unrepentant about them in the first place. The main thrust of this cartoon comes, I think, not in saying "gays are worthless, so militant atheists are worthless by analogy" but rather in saying "gay rights campaigning is important for gays, but it's a bit silly saying that the atheist movement is the same".

Likewise, Dawkins is a hugely respected and serious figure among the British humanist community. A bit of mocking him can be taken tongue in cheek and does not affect his credibility in the slightest. I see it as mildly affectionate even - portraying him as a daft, batty old uncle figure, a harmless, sandal-wearing innocent enthralled by the wonders of nature in a very child-like fashion. I would not see that as a terrific disservice to the man. It certainly makes a change from the shrill, ranting demagogue of popular myth.

Or maybe that's just what I read into it - I am on record in this very thread as saying we bring our own preconceptions to any text we read.

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39. Comment #87029 by steve99 on November 11, 2007 at 3:28 am

 avatar
To restate my opinion on the original thread where the cartoon is posted, I do not believe that Dawkins is being presented as a gay stereotype, rather his characteristic exhuberance and sense of wonder are being exaggerated.


I think you may need to look again :)

The overt gay community has for a long time courted controversy and indulged in shameless self-parody.


There is no problem with that. Self-parody is not the problem.

A bit of mocking him can be taken tongue in cheek and does not affect his credibility in the slightest.


Absolutely. I don't take issue with the mocking of it self - it was how it was done.

In short, to my jaded, bourgeois eyes at least, the gay community and its various tropes are pretty much mainstream cultural property in Britain these days and thus need no special treatment.


I am not so optimistic. We still get gay-bashing, even murders. We have even had to fight for the right not to be discriminated by businesses this year, against pressure from the Churches. There are faith communities

I am afraid I see the problem as Dawkins being mocked through a portrayal as gay. I think it is shameful.

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40. Comment #87035 by Northern Bright on November 11, 2007 at 4:13 am

 avatarI thought this was a great article by PZ and I agree with him totally on every point he makes in it (though, like several others here, I'm inclined to interpret the cartoon as offensively stupid rather than offensive per se.)

To me, the best bit of the article is his scathing assault on the sheer inanity of moderate religion. This is something that has struck me more and more of late, and that I'm finding myself feeling more and more impatient with.

PZ's quite right - you are most unlikely to find a Methodist terrorist, but Methodists who genuinely believe that closing their eyes, holding their hands together, bowing their heads and repeating some magic words will a) contribute to world peace, b) heal the sick and c) stop it raining on the day of the church picnic are ten a penny. And it's just STUPID. It's offensively stupid. To me, more and more, it's the stupidity that's more offensive than the nature of the religious belief itself - it's offensively stupid the way racism or homophobia or astrology or mindless, drunken violence are offensively stupid. It is SO stupid that it demeans people and PZ is dead right: NO WAY should we be pretending that it is in any way a good thing or an acceptable thing.

I have become far more hostile to religion over the last year or so than I ever used to be before, and it's not because of 9/11 and it's not because of "the New Atheists" - it's because of Christians and the sheer inanity and wanton ignorance of their arguments and beliefs.

By the way, I'm with PZ on his discomfort with the term "humanist" too. I'd LIKE to be able to sign up as one, and there's so much in what they stand for that I agree with wholeheartedly. But I keep looking at the British Humanist Association's website and its description of what humanists believe, and I can't overcome my sense that it's just too breathy and idealistic for me. It says, for instance,
Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems - so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.

... and I just can't put that much faith in humanity, I'm afraid. There may well be problems that we will never be able to find solutions to and, even if we can and do, the notion that everyone's quality of life will be improved as a result just smacks of the same kind of naivety that so enrages me in its religious form.

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41. Comment #87041 by notsobad on November 11, 2007 at 4:59 am

 avatar
Take one issue like the Catholic Church's stance against the use of condoms to prevent AIDS. There are many religious folks, including many Catholics who are opposed to this.

The problem with Catholics is that they are taught that the Catholic Church is equally important to God/Jesus/Bible. So whatever the Church says, they try to follow. And even if a Catholic disagrees with the Church, they just avoid that issue and still support the Church. On the other hand, there are Christians who dislike the Church and its monopoly on Christian faith in countries where it dominates, so they protest against it.

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42. Comment #87097 by VanYoungman on November 11, 2007 at 7:51 am

 avatarAs usual, an excellent essay by PZ. Sharp and to the point. Pythagoras does make a good observation about 9-11 however. If you want solid evidence from a rather important source, read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's "Infidel".

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43. Comment #87138 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 10:03 am

 avatarIt's fair to say I think that 9/11 was a catalyst that launched a popular movement called "new atheism". So I think PZ is being unfairly critical on that point in his article. There's a difference between recognizing the intellectual heritage of atheism which has its roots at least as far back as the 18th century and recognizing that this new uprising of that intellectual heritage has a lot to do with the public awareness created by 9/11. It's not necessary for there to be a new philosophy of atheism to recognize that there is a new uprising of it.


That being said however, I think that there are important new thrusts being emphasized in the "new atheist" movement that uniquely characterize it. Here are the aspects I see:

1) Religions make claims that can and so should be subjected to scientific inquiry. We should grant no special treatment/respect to the claims made by religion. Specifically the idea of non-overlapping magisteria needs to be quesitioned as it suggests a respect be granted to religion that is not granted to other realms of human discourse. At a minimum we should recognize that religions do not in practice respect the boundaries implied by the principle of non-overlapping magisteria.

2) It's improper to label a child as an adherent to a belief that they are not yet old enough to examine.

3) Within a religious framework, the people who committed the crimes on 9/11 (among others) were acting rationally. As such, moderate believers are providing a support system for fundamentalist believers.

These above thrusts of the new atheist movement might not be new, but taken together they meaningfully and historically identify it as label-worthy.


.

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44. Comment #87180 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 11:49 am

 avatarConcerning Labels:

Labels are not problematic when used to identify movements (e.g. "new atheism") or even when used to name a positional conclusion reached by examined evidence (e.g. "atheism"), the problem and danger comes when labels like "atheism" become a personal and group identifier.

I agree with Sam Harris on this point: atheism is not a world view; it's not a political view; and it's not a club. As soon as we adopt it as such, we move the focus of the debate concerning claims made by religion away from where it should be: evidence and the application of reason. Instead it shifts into a more political realm inescapably weakened by a personalized struggle between "us" and "them". Making an argument as the representative of an interest group is a much weaker place from which to argue. Instead of probing the merits or lack of merits of an argument, the fence-sitting public invariably questions (or is directed to question) the motives/interests of the special interest group itself. The fact that an eminently qualified biologist and skilled communicator such as Richard Dawkins was considered a liability as an expert witness in the Dover Pennsylvania "Intelligent Design" court case is an example of the problem that the atheism as an interest group label creates.

.

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45. Comment #87279 by notsobad on November 11, 2007 at 4:25 pm

 avatarRiley,
atheism does not have to be a positional conclusion reached by examined evidence though. After all, you are born atheist.

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46. Comment #87287 by Riley on November 11, 2007 at 4:55 pm

 avatarnotsobad, I think in my case at least, I was born believing in the incredible and anthropomorphizing the nature of it.

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47. Comment #87425 by mjosef on November 12, 2007 at 4:56 am

Fine and dandy article, PZ. Of course, to see basically my views reiterated by another fellow human is part of its appeal, but it is good to see smart, direct writing, not Harris-like quibbling and intoning. . In the "Rant and Reason" blog of humanist.org, I learned last week that "Humanism" is a "new religion," it is not atheist, and that it derives from the religious department of the University of Chicago. You can look up my earth-shattering exchange with the official Voice of "Francis" the talking AHA figurehead, in the entries "Does Size Matter" and "Atheists Need..." I am an atheist, I concluded, not an Up-With-People Unitarian "humanist", and think the only real alliances are the ones that get you sex. Otherwise, stick to your principles, bite your tongue when necessary, as another poster said, and realize that even squid are better at this than you are.

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48. Comment #87649 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 5:04 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #87035 by Northern Bright:

By the way, I'm with PZ on his discomfort with the term "humanist" too. I'd LIKE to be able to sign up as one, and there's so much in what they stand for that I agree with wholeheartedly. But I keep looking at the British Humanist Association's website and its description of what humanists believe, and I can't overcome my sense that it's just too breathy and idealistic for me. It says, for instance,

Humanists believe that people can and will continue to find solutions to the world's problems - so that quality of life can be improved for everyone.

... and I just can't put that much faith in humanity, I'm afraid. There may well be problems that we will never be able to find solutions to and, even if we can and do, the notion that everyone's quality of life will be improved as a result just smacks of the same kind of naivety that so enrages me in its religious form.


I agree that it's considerably easier to have faith in an imaginary God, who at least is incapable of doing anything to disappoint us, than to have faith in physical humans who regularly demonstrate our manifold imperfections.

However, fortunately for us all, if we look at the long sweep of historical progress, we see that in many ways things are better for many of us (although not for all of us) than they were for most people back in the Middle Ages.

There doesn't seem to be much interest in turning the clock back. I did see a television documentary about a man who lived alone in the woods, in full historical authenticity, using only technology available to American colonists from the 1700s. The documentary was quite interesting, until he mentioned that he wanted to find a woman who would marry him and adopt his lifestyle. At that point, the whole premise became comical, as I tried to imagine wooing a woman with the promise of a life without: electricity, television, telephones, computers, central heat, indoor plumbing, hot showers, shampoo, tampons, birth control, motorized transport, screened windows, laundry machines, synthetic fibers, modern medicine, and any of the several dozen oddly shaped plastic bottles, jars, and tubes that seem to festoon the bathroom of any modern lady.

Surely, Ms. Northern Bright, you would greet a forced return to eighteenth-century backwoods existence with some large degree of horror (for my part, life without bicycles and computers would seem quite pointless), and to the extent that most people who live better now would agree with you, people really have found solutions to some of the world's problems - in particular, solutions to the problems we no longer think much about.

While there are quite a number of troubling problems that remain, and new problems that continually grow out of solutions to old problems, it seems pretty safe to conclude that humans never needed to be individually perfect to be collectively effective, and there's a good chance useful progress can continue if civilization avoids any of the many potential calamities that could end it.

While I agree that phrasing our humanism loftily simply invites parody, let's at least all admit we really are humanists in some sense if we don't believe in God. Because if we don't believe humans can solve some problems, who else will solve them? If an atheist is not a humanist, what's the alternative? Nihilism? Solipsism? Hoping for space aliens to show up and save us?

Of course believing that humans can solve some problems eventually is not the same as expecting we as individuals will live to see the solutions. The human condition is going to suck for a long, long time (hyper-optimistic predictions of a near-imminent technological "singularity" notwithstanding). For example, I read a report that said even if medicine found cures to every form of cancer and heart disease, eliminating the two biggest killers in the first world, the average life expectancy would only increase by two years. But considering how much your existence today sucks less than it probably would have in the 1700s might give some hope that in another 300 years, perhaps a few more things we think of as problems today could be largely forgotten.

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49. Comment #87654 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 5:28 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #87138 by Riley:

1) Religions make claims that can and so should be subjected to scientific inquiry. We should grant no special treatment/respect to the claims made by religion. Specifically the idea of non-overlapping magisteria needs to be quesitioned as it suggests a respect be granted to religion that is not granted to other realms of human discourse. At a minimum we should recognize that religions do not in practice respect the boundaries implied by the principle of non-overlapping magisteria.


NOMA requires that we treat religions exactly as we treat works of fiction - as purely mental exercises that have no overlap with the physical world.

It is possible to practice NOMA with respect to a Star Trek convention, because even the most fanatically absorbed conventioneers do not assert that their fictional Star Trek world really exists. Neither do they indoctrinate their children to believe it really exists. Neither do they attempt to reconstruct society along Star Trek principles. They don't fight actual wars to settle the burning doctrinal issue of who was the best Enterprise captain. Neither do they issue fatwas calling for the murder of late-night comedians who mock their oddly celibate cult.

I continue to be amazed at the sheer arrogance and insensitivity of Prof. Gould's "blessedly simple proposition" that every religion should henceforth refrain from making any physically testable claim, and stick to harmlessly self-admitted navel-gazing.

If religions really have divine revelation, why would divine revelation subordinate itself to the findings of scientists? Couldn't the Almighty God who revealed all the great moral wisdom that NOMA demands we respect have slipped in a few unguessable but true facts about heliocentrism and human origins? How did factual errors about the physical world slip in to the supposedly perfect divine revelation? The whole concept of NOMA could only make sense to a lifelong atheist who didn't know much about religion from the inside, and a shallow-thinking atheist at that, who seemed to learn nothing at all about the creationists he routinely opposed, as if they were some sort of unexpected exception to the general rule of religious people behaving like good Trekkies.

Imagine trying to explain NOMA to the ancient Egyptians who redirected their entire national economy for centuries to building giant stone pyramids to secure eternal life for their Pharaohs.

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50. Comment #87695 by Teratornis on November 12, 2007 at 10:00 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #87180 by Riley:

Instead of probing the merits or lack of merits of an argument, the fence-sitting public invariably questions (or is directed to question) the motives/interests of the special interest group itself. The fact that an eminently qualified biologist and skilled communicator such as Richard Dawkins was considered a liability as an expert witness in the Dover Pennsylvania "Intelligent Design" court case is an example of the problem that the atheism as an interest group label creates.


But would Prof. Dawkins in fact have been a liability? We cannot really know for sure, because he didn't take the stand. The issue before the court was not whether science has led some people to atheism, but whether the teaching of intelligent design in public schools violates the U.S. Constitution.

Perhaps considering Prof. Dawkins to be a "liability" in such a case stems from a mindset of appeasement, the belief that if we can somehow sidestep the root cause of the conflict between religion and science, and convince people who have fundamentally rejected rationality to think rationally about one narrow issue, we can avoid having to fight the wider battle against unreason. The result is that we keep replaying the Scopes Trial every few years.

Appeasement isn't going to work with people who believe that anyone who rejects their literal reading of holy scripture has been deceived by Satan. People who are comprehensively waterproofed against reason need comprehensive deprogramming. There is no middle ground on which to negotiate.

This is not to suggest that being honest would guarantee we win the battle, but refusing to fight hardly seems like a promising strategy either.

The issue here is not merely the currently dysphemic label. The issue is doubting the locally popular religion. Guardians of ancient myths have undergone extensive selection for the ability to sniff out doubters and heretics, so I doubt we could fool them with a name change.

To impute some sort of extra power to labels is to commit a kind of fetishism. It's futile anyway, because of the "euphemism treadmill." No matter what we call ourselves, or allow our opponents to call us (and they will invent a label for us if we don't), the connotations of the label will naturally come to reflect the prevailing cultural attitudes toward the labeled group. See:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphemism#The_.22Euphemism_Treadmill.22

If we have an image problem, we won't fix it by slapping a new label on ourselves, any more than a failing company turns itself into the next Google by changing its name.

Way back when Esso changed its name to Exxon, at immense cost which added zero value for its customers, a cartoon mocked the change by suggesting the slogan: "We've changed our name, but it's still the same old gas."

Whatever theists dislike about atheists, they will continue to dislike and malign no matter what we call ourselves, or let them call us. I suggest that rather than try to outrun the euphemism treadmill, we should spend that energy on demystifying our current label. We can either fight that battle where we are now, or where we will be later.

Consider other stigmatized groups, such as sex workers, homosexuals, racial minorities, etc. They can take either of two basic approaches to unflattering labels:

1. They can try to censor the labels.
2. They can embrace the labels and show they aren't afraid of words.

The old-school civil rights movement in the United States generally took the position that we needed to censor racial slurs, creating a classic example of the euphemism treadmill, as each new label gradually assumed the stigma of the previous one, and needed to be replaced by the next label. Once you persuade people to practice label fetishism, where does it stop? Now we have the curious situation of hip-hop entertainers earning millions of dollars by chanting egregiously offensive labels which would get a white middle manager fired if he were to utter one the job. The fact that such labels are pervading popular culture is making it harder for white people to avoid letting one slip as a term of endearment.

Label censorship is not a model I would especially like to see atheists emulate, as this seems at odds with reason and free inquiry. I have more respect for sex workers who openly call themselves "whores," showing that they are OK with what they do, and they don't need to burden everyone else with word games. As if changing the label would change the product or its consequences in any case.

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