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Monday, December 10, 2007 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document This deadly religious resistance to vaccinations

by Johann Hari

It's rare a newspaper actually manages to kill people, but Sir David King believes the Daily Mail may pull it off.

I want to tell you three interconnected stories. The first is some of the best news you will hear all year; the last two are some of the saddest. But they are all about how science saves tens of millions of lives, and how the persistence of faith-based thinking kills – not just in the distant witch-burning past, but today, across the world and, yes, even in Britain.

When I first went to central Africa, I met a woman exactly the same age as me called Marie Abawede who had given birth to four children out in the rainforests. The first three had all died – of measles. Her last baby was sick, and she was convinced he had "the killer" too. "If he dies, I will die," she said, plainly, without tears. In the year 2000, there were 396,000 women like this in Africa, watching their babies waste away pointlessly. Today, the figure has fallen by an incredible 90 percent. There are only 36,000 such women today, and there will be fewer next year, and the next year, and the next year.

This is because of pure science, combined with political will. The World Health Organisation (WHO) has used funds donated by governments across the world – including ours – to massively ramp up measles vaccinations across Africa, which cost just $1 a dose. It has worked. Vaccinations are perhaps the greatest achievement of humanity: using this scientific tool, we have literally eradicated Smallpox – a disease that caused hundreds of millions of people to die in howling agony – from the human condition. It will never kill another person, ever. That's why the economist Jeffrey Sachs has called vaccines "Weapons of Mass Salvation".

So whenever somebody tells you science is "cold" or "soulless", and needs the "meaning" offered in religious texts, think of Marie. All the major religious texts say explicitly that disease is caused by demons and devils. Following this mentality left her babies to die. But using science instead – sticking to empirical observation of the world, and inferences from it based on reason – is saving millions of children, and giving them a chance at life once more. I can't think of anything less "cold" or "soulless" than that.

But today, some of the followers of faith-based thinking are waging a global war on vaccinations. At the turn of the twenty-first century, the WHO's vaccination programme was on the brink of sending polio to the graveyard of dead diseases. The disease leaves its victims permanently paralysed in various parts of their body: there is a brilliant account of what it is like in my colleague Patrick Cockburn's autobiographical book 'The Broken Boy.' But it had been chased down to a handful of remaining areas, which were being rapidly vaccinated. It was almost over, forever.

And then the local Mullahs heard about it. The Islamic clerical elite in northern Nigeria announced that God had revealed to them that the vaccine was "un-Islamic", part of an evil plot by the godless West to sterilise Muslim children. The local population, with no alternative sources of information, stopped sending their kids. Now polio is back with a vengeance, and we may never wipe it out. In a clash between reason and revelation, revelation won out – and as a direct result, millions of innocent people will be horribly paralysed and die.

But before we get smug and conclude this is a cultural gap between us and Those Damn Muslims, remember – in Britain, over the past five years, there has been a smaller but strikingly similar home-grown jihad against vaccinations. It has been waged by none other than the Daily Mail.

In 2000, the Daily Mail decided – in the absence of any reliable scientific evidence whatsoever – to give wildly undue prominence to the idea that the Measles, Mumps and Rubella (MMR) vaccine causes autism. Every reputable scientist in the country explained, patiently, that the sole scientist making these claims – Dr Andrew Wakefield – didn't have any reliable evidence at all to back him up. He had looked at only twelve autistic children whose parents all fervently blamed MMR – thus skewing his results irreparably. Instead, Britain's scientific community pointed to reams of studies showing conclusively that MMR is not to blame: a study of 1.8 million randomly-chosen children in Finland (as opposed to Wakefield's hand-picked 12) found that autism rates remained the same after the introduction of MMR.

But the Mail continued anyway, even after Wakefield was indicted before the General Medical Council, and it was – disgracefully – mimicked by other newspapers and by the BBC. Panicked parents assumed that, since it was on the news, there must some evidence for it, and in several areas vaccination rates have fallen by 30 percent. The result? Britain's chief scientist, Sir David King, warned last week that it is now probable fifty to one hundred kids will die of measles because of the disinformation campaign spearheaded by the Mail. It's rare a newspaper actually manages to kill people, but Sir David King believes they may pull it off.

Was the Mail's campaign based on faith-based thinking, like the campaign in Northern Nigeria? I think it can be shown that it was. Let's look at the figure within the newspaper who spearheaded the MMR campaign: Melanie Phillips. Despite having no scientific qualifications, and despite making the most elementary scientific howlers time and again in her articles, she feels free to announce that virtually all the world's scientists are wrong, on everything from global warming to MMR.

But why was she so certain the MMR campaign should be stopped? Phillips presented her argument as if she was simply siding with one scientist against another. But in reality, she disputes on religious grounds the very basis of vaccinations: evolution. She says that creationism should be taught in schools, and that evolution is "only a theory." So it's no wonder she is so hostile to (and ignorant of) vaccination science. Vaccines only work because we can observe evolution, live, as it happens. Take the flu virus. It is constantly changing – you can watch it under a microscope. That's why you need a booster shot every year: because the virus has evolved. That's why a vaccine against the 1918 flu virus would be radically different to a vaccine the 2007 flu virus: it has evolved. Yet when Professor Colin Blakemore, head of the Medical Research Council, pointed out this elementary scientific truth, she accused him of seizing any sneaky opportunity to "beat the drum for Darwin" and for claiming "there was no intelligent design in a virus, only the mindless force of natural selection."

Let me get this right: Phillips actually believes God personally tweaks the flu virus every year, just to keep it ahead of the vaccinators? What sort of sadist-deity does she follow? And why did newspapers and the BBC mimic her anti-scientific ravings? From this species of ignorance has flowed the serious risk of children dying, according to – remember – our chief scientist.

There have always been people who responded to life-saving scientific advances with peasant superstition and mutterings about the Almighty. For the sake of all that is good and un-Holy, it seems they still need to be resisted – from the deserts of Northern Nigeria to the hills of North London.

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1. Comment #96782 by Ducklike on December 10, 2007 at 10:36 pm

 avatarTo my friends in Great Britain, please accept my heartfelt sorrow regarding the travesty described above. Focus your disappointment into determination and call forth your indomitable resolve. For you must defeat the source as well as the unfortunate symptoms of the affliction currently besetting your children.

Other Comments by Ducklike

2. Comment #96796 by MuNky82 on December 10, 2007 at 11:31 pm

 avatarPhillips, Wakefield and the editors of Daily Mail should be charged with crimes against humanity.

We should actually petition the UN that the organized spread of any information that leads to deaths, despite the overwhelming evidence of the opposite available, should be investigated for a possible charge of crimes against humanity. Then we would probably see this behavior decline, and it could lead to an "enforced" path to reason.

Reason saved me,
yes I know,
for the court-rolls
tells me so...


Other Comments by MuNky82

3. Comment #96803 by DrCube on December 10, 2007 at 11:54 pm

It isn't just happening in Britain. Have you ever heard of Jenny McCarthy? There are a whole slew of anti-vax people in the States, including my aunt. I've got a one-year-old she's worried to death about because I got him vaccinated!

I'd rather see the whole world praise Allah and read horoscopes than watch this most dangerous form of woowoo-ery gain any kind of foothold.

Other Comments by DrCube

4. Comment #96812 by ykboots on December 11, 2007 at 12:39 am

As a nurse I come across this kind of bull all too frequently. No matter how clearly you explain that vaccines are safe and effective they always come up with some sort of "friend" or "story a relative told them" that says that vaccines cause autism and other afflictions such as arthritis. It ridiculous and its scary. If vaccination rates fall below herd immunity levels you will see a rise in all of the diseases that should now be a memory. The worst part is that some of the people propagating this myth are ill informed nurses and other health care providers.
I agree that information is the way to combat this but how can we hope to convince the general public when there are morons in the field who can't read and understand basic science.
Religion breeds ignorance, and ignorance kills.

Other Comments by ykboots

5. Comment #96820 by AdrianT on December 11, 2007 at 1:03 am

 avatarHere in Holland, there are still some calvinist reformed Christian sects believe it's sinful to accept injections. There have been serious polio outbreaks too in 1978 and 1992, and of measles in 1999. I believe up to 30 % of "Bevindelijk gereformeerde" Christians are not immunized, enough for another serious outbreak to happen.

During that outbreak of March 1971, five children died and 39 were left permanently disabled. I was reading recently about the experience of one such person, who suffered from poliio and has been left almost as immobilized as steven hawking: wheelchair-bound, breathing with the help of a ventilator, speaks with extreme difficulty and has limited arm movement.

A very moving story about her attitudes to her famliy (who after all prevented her from receiving the life saving injection in the first place). The Christian compassion of the local priest, PJ Dorsman, his words as she lay hospitalised were: "If it were not for polio, you would probably have been taken by a car accident."
(here was the link to the story, in Dutch)
http://archief.trouw.nl/artikel?REC=tr-19920924-000170623

Other Comments by AdrianT

6. Comment #96822 by MuNky82 on December 11, 2007 at 1:31 am

 avatar
The Christian compassion of the local priest, PJ Dorsman, his words as she lay hospitalised were: "If it were not for polio, you would probably have been taken by a car accident."


WTF!?!?
I would have slapped him right there and then. This is what I read:
"If it wasn't for your (preventable, but wasn't because of the organized ignorance I stand for) disease, you would probably have been taken by a car accident (as in a totally random unplanned and unintentional tragedy)."

AAAAAARRRRGH!

Other Comments by MuNky82

7. Comment #96826 by hopeful on December 11, 2007 at 1:39 am

How tragically ironic that religion behaves essentially like a virus of the mind.

Other Comments by hopeful

8. Comment #96833 by irate_atheist on December 11, 2007 at 2:00 am

 avatarI don't even let my cat piss on the Daily Mail just in case it gets infected by the vileness contained therein.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

9. Comment #96842 by Tycho the Dog on December 11, 2007 at 2:15 am

 avatarThe Daily Mail, as has often been pointed out in previous threads, is the most poisonously disingenuous newspaper published in the UK - far worse than other 'tabloids' such as the Sun or Mirror. It's worse because it masquerades as serious journalism and is read as such by large swathes of the middle-class population (my own parents included). As such it caters to an eclectic mix of middle-class prejudices - anti-Labour party, anti-immigrant, anti-gay, anti-foreigner, anti-teachers, anti-muslim, anti-science, anti-police, pro-corporal and capital punishment, pro-psuedoscientific woo-woo, and famously, of course, in the inter-war period, pro-Nazi.

Other Comments by Tycho the Dog

10. Comment #96843 by hungarianelephant on December 11, 2007 at 2:17 am

 avatarBlame religion if you like, but you'll be missing the point.

Much of the public is deeply sceptical of science in general and medical science in particular. Its macro achievements, such as the eradication of smallpox and polio, are not what most people see. They go to their doctor and are given 8 minutes and a prescription. If it looks serious, they will go onto a 6 month waiting list for further tests.

Meanwhile, they are fed a daily diet of condensed summaries of what "scientists" say they should do: eat more greens, or less greens; direct sunlight for vitamin D, but avoid it because of skin cancer; two drinks is a binge; etc. With no proper understanding of what science is - because schools don't teach it properly - and no grasp of how the media distort scientific research, people feel pushed around by an amorphous scientific establishment.

There's no doubt that vaccination has saved many thousands, if not millions of lives. But there are also some people who do not tolerate them well. Among them are my parents - and as children our GP advised against innoculating us. As an adult, I have had doctors attempt to refuse me as a patient unless I have all the jabs I missed as a child. Why? Because they are paid bonuses based on a particular percentage of their patients having a complete set of jabs.

When my own child's time came around, we were first told, "Do it anyway", then "Family history is immaterial" (this is in printed literature and is an outright lie), then "Do it in the hospital so they can resuscitate if there's a problem". Finally, after a serious adverse reaction to something else, it was acknowledged that vaccinating her might not be the smartest idea.

This just isn't good enough. People with some scientific knowledge appreciate that it really is a numbers game - that you can pretty much guarantee that there won't be an epidemic if you vaccinate 95% to 98% of the population, depending on the disease. But these are people's children. They will do everything in their power to prevent something bad from happening to them. Some people's concerns are unfounded - that a friend of a friend of someone they met in a pub had a child who was ill for 3 days after a jab. Others have genuine and reasonable concerns, which are being poorly addressed.

Resistance to vaccines, especially "new" ones, is by and large a resistance to the perceived power of the medical establishment - the same one, it should be noted, that told us thalidomide was safe and that injecting short kids with human growth hormone from ground-up pituiarty glands was a great idea. It may not be wholly rational but that is not the point. You are not going to get over it with the sort of condescension contained in this article.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

11. Comment #96845 by YssiBoo on December 11, 2007 at 2:20 am

 avatarPardon my ignorance but just one quick question:

If there is an outbreak of say, measles, will this pose a threat to people who are vaccinated? Do measle and polio evolve like the flu virus, so that a vaccination only works against one strain?

Other Comments by YssiBoo

12. Comment #96851 by epeeist on December 11, 2007 at 2:31 am

 avatarComment #96833 by irate_atheist and #96842 by Tycho the Dog

Agreed - it really is the nastiest rag on the market, though I think the "Express" runs it close. Its late proprietor Lord Northcliffe was supposed to have revealed the secret of its success was that it gave its readers a "daily hate".

Other Comments by epeeist

13. Comment #96852 by seanwupton on December 11, 2007 at 2:32 am

 avatarWell I think it is time we boycott the Daily Mail.

YssiBoo has a question that must be answered, if this is allowed to go on, will the vaccinated eventually be at an immediate threat as well? There must be a scientist in our midst who can answer such a question?

The Daily Mail has got to be the most poisonous newspaper in the United Kingdom.

Other Comments by seanwupton

14. Comment #96859 by hungarianelephant on December 11, 2007 at 2:48 am

 avatarNot a scientist, but:

There's no increased threat to those who have been effectively vaccinated. Not all vaccinations are effective.

The vaccination programme works generally by reducing the number of susceptible people, which in turn reduces the risk of epidemic. If you were the only person in the world not vaccinated against polio, for example, you are not going to catch it because you have no one to catch it from.

The programmes are substantially effective when 95-98% of the population are vaccinated, depending on the disease. The remaining 2-5% who are not vaccinated, together with the small number whose vaccines are not effective, together make up a small enough population that epidemic is very unlikely.

If you increase the number of unvaccinated, you increase the risk of epidemic exponentially. Those affected will primarily be the unvaccinated, but the not-effectives will also be at an exponentially greater risk.

So, yes in some cases, no in most.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

15. Comment #96873 by Styrer- on December 11, 2007 at 3:16 am

'For many, the claim that evolution enabled life to cross the species barrier so that humans are merely the last link in the evolutionary chain remains a step too far — not least because, by the standards science itself sets, it fails the test of evidence. It is merely a theory.'

'Scientific knowledge may have dealt a serious blow to religious belief, but science does not fill the gaps in our understanding of existence. It does not explain the irreduceable complexity of certain cells for example, which cannot have been formed by simple organisms coming together. And contrary to Darwin's theory that evolution is a slow and continuous process, the fossil record itself shows long periods where nothing happened and then several new species -- just like buses -- came along at once.'


- Melanie Philips, Faithhead.

How much longer can the sheer wickedness of these faith-heads' pernicious, disingenuous dogma be allowed to run riot over human beings' welfare?

It's particularly at blood-boiling times like this that my gratitude to Dawkins et al. skyrockets.

They're the best shot we have.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

16. Comment #96879 by mmurray on December 11, 2007 at 3:23 am

 avatar

Pardon my ignorance but just one quick question:

If there is an outbreak of say, measles, will this pose a threat to people who are vaccinated? Do measle and polio evolve like the flu virus, so that a vaccination only works against one strain?


According to this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMR_vaccine

A shot at 12 months and a second (so-called booster) at around 4 or 5 is enough for lifetime immunity. I assume measles and polio are not evolving like flu.

Michael

PS: hungarianelephants comment is pertinent as well. Vaccination programmes are designed to confer sufficient immunity to stop the disease from spreading. That won't mean immunity for everybody just for enough people.

Other Comments by mmurray

17. Comment #96880 by Roger Stanyard on December 11, 2007 at 3:24 am

Sir David King should be congratulated for standing up to the Daily and Sunday Mail. Melanie Phillips is scientifically illiterate; her only degree is in English. The one person who will never defend the Mail's position in public is its editor(s). That is cowardice coupled to power.

Phillips, who is currently nothing more than an opinionated journalist in a powerful position, reminds me of the the term "power without responsibility, the perogative of the harlot through the ages". It is time to call her to account for the deaths of between 50-100 children resulting from her influence and scientific ignorance. Likewise with the Mail.

Roger Stanyard

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

18. Comment #96883 by k1mgy on December 11, 2007 at 3:43 am

 avatarThese stories are unfortunate in that they do a disservice to the general public and those in science and medicine who have valid concerns as to a number of issues surrounding mass vaccination programs. Vaccine opponents, and those who raise questions and concerns on a basis beyond voodoo, remain lumped with the irrational.

As to the story, vaccination is no substitute for even basic health care. Children in nations where supportive care exists do not routinely die from measles. One might argue that MMR serves to attenuate symptoms (you still get the disease but fight it off more effectively), but it can also be argued that the mass vaccination programs do not cover populations fully, and that MMR (and other vaccines) exhibit varying degrees of effectiveness.

Dr. Wakefield was vilified and run out of Britain, not for proving conclusively that there was a direct connection between MMR and Autism, but for raising the possibility of it. Further research (Wakefield is now continuing his studies in the US) is leading to interest in a previously-undiagnosed bowel disease associated with a virus and possibly triggered by the MMR. More work needs to be undertaken. We do not see the vaccine industry nor the medico-politico lobby stepping up to the plate here in the US. Rather, they are engorging themselves at the troth.

Sometimes vaccine proponents go for the jugular with the same irrational fervor as the nutcases who oppose a jab on shaky ground.

Let's not discount what evidence there is for further study, nor shove aside very valid concerns over the loss of informed consent and a mass vaccination program that does not take into account genetic and toxicological predisposition to adverse reactions.

Let's also not substitute basic health care with convenience shots.

Other Comments by k1mgy

19. Comment #96888 by epeeist on December 11, 2007 at 4:01 am

 avatarComment #96883 by k1mgy

Dr. Wakefield was vilified and run out of Britain, not for proving conclusively that there was a direct connection between MMR and Autism, but for raising the possibility of it.
This is simply false. Have a look at Brian Deer's site for a fuller explanation - http://briandeer.com/wakefield-deer.htm

Other Comments by epeeist

20. Comment #96896 by Roger Stanyard on December 11, 2007 at 4:11 am

K1MGY,

It looks to me that vaccination is a very good substitute for basic health care for the simple reason that much of the latter is missing in vast swaths of the world, such as Africa. At best it looks likely that basic health care will not be available in many of these areas for generations. So how many more people/children will uncessarily die because of a lack of vaccination.

It's worse than that though, because measles, mumps and german measles are not caused by lack of basic health care. Without vaccination, they are endemic in countries with good basic health care. IIRC, german measles epedemics used to kill thousands of people before vaccination was available and leave a lot of others deformed. Even mumps was a significant killer.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

21. Comment #96897 by steve99 on December 11, 2007 at 4:12 am

 avatar
Let's not discount what evidence there is for further study, nor shove aside very valid concerns over the loss of informed consent and a mass vaccination program that does not take into account genetic and toxicological predisposition to adverse reactions.


This is a dangerous attitude. Informed consent is highly problematic unless the population as a whole has a detailed understanding of chemistry and immunology. And the greatest care is taken with the development of vaccines. To claim that they don't take into account genetic factors and toxicology is nonsense.

Other Comments by steve99

22. Comment #96898 by Slyer on December 11, 2007 at 4:13 am

 avatarThis sort of nonsense makes me so angry, if only they could realise the damage their ignorance is causing! If there is one thing in this world deserving of your faith, it's science.
I can almost understand where parents are coming from when a new-ish vaccine is being used, they are concerned for the safety of their children and I guess I can accept that. But the parents not allowing their children well-tested vaccines because of superstition? That I will not stand for, vaccines and contraception are very necessary to ensure that these diseases die down, if not die out entirely.

Pro-life my ass.

Other Comments by Slyer

23. Comment #96900 by notsobad on December 11, 2007 at 4:17 am

 avatarLower birth rate is the only thing that can help poor African countries in the long run, but only through sex education and contraceptives.
Fighting against vaccines instead and letting women give birth into this environment is despicable to say the least.

Other Comments by notsobad

24. Comment #96902 by Slyer on December 11, 2007 at 4:25 am

 avatarBoth are necessary notsobad, are you saying it's still okay to have a country plagued by disease as long as the birth rate is kept down?
Unless your intention is for them to all die out..
I don't really understand your definition of "help".

Other Comments by Slyer

25. Comment #96904 by Ajuydog on December 11, 2007 at 4:27 am

 avatarEpeeist, you got there before me on Brian Deer, dammit!

It is worth remembering that measles still kills about 600 000 children per year, down from 4 500 000 per year before vaccination.

A couple of points on vaccination. In order for an infection to spread, each new case must result in at least 1 new case in a population. If, on average, each case results in less than 1 new case, the disease will die out in that population. If measles results in 10 new cases for each case in a totally susceptible poplation (unvaccinated and no natural immunity) and the vaccine is 95% effective the we would have to vaccinate at least 95% of people for each case to give rise to less than 1 new case and so allow the disease to die out. I hope that is clear!

Lastly, vaccination is responsible for as much health gain as all other medical technologies put together.

Other Comments by Ajuydog

26. Comment #96905 by Happy_Atheist123 on December 11, 2007 at 4:35 am

I've seen the same thing here in America. A man that I worked with decided to not vaccinate his newest born child for religious reasons. All of his friends encouraged him to follow his belief system. Well, his daughter came down with meningitis which would have been prevented by her routine pneumococcal vaccination. She has suffered permanent brain damage and last I heard, she was a vegetable. I feel so bad for his family. His religious friends continued to tell him that he made the right decision.

A similar thing is going on with the new HPV vaccine (which I have recieved). Although there is a weak but valid moral debate about this, there is a lot of disinformation. One of the "friends" of the man mentioned above insisted to me that the HPV vaccine would cause brain damage and a whole generation of young girls would grow up with brain damage. Of course, he recieved this information from his church. Needless to say, I'm not suffering any of this horrible brain damage that he told me would happen after I recieved the vaccine.

Other Comments by Happy_Atheist123

27. Comment #96906 by Gymnopedie on December 11, 2007 at 4:42 am

It is sad that there is a resistance to vaccines in the US, as well. I wouldn't say the resistance stems from religion, but rather it stems from a lack of critical thinking and outright pseudoscientific thinking. But I still don't understand why there is such a resistance.

And are the Mullahs in Africa really saying not to get vaccines because it is from the "evil west"? Is this just stone age thinking or is it more complicated than I see here?

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

28. Comment #96911 by Peacebeuponme on December 11, 2007 at 4:56 am

Once again Johann Hari writes sensibly on an important topic. I always enjoy his articles in the Indie.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

29. Comment #96915 by Kimpatsu on December 11, 2007 at 5:02 am

 avatarWhen Phillips began her assaults on reason in the DM, I e-mailed her with a lengthy explanation as to why she was wrong, and received a 6-word reply: "I stand by what I wrote". I don't think she likes having her non-expertise called into question, but she certainly views herself as an investigative reporter following the likes of Woodward and Bernstein to blow the whistle on the "establishment".

Other Comments by Kimpatsu

30. Comment #96917 by BaronOchs on December 11, 2007 at 5:03 am

 avatar
Vaccinations are perhaps the greatest achievement of humanity: using this scientific tool, we have literally eradicated Smallpox – a disease that caused hundreds of millions of people to die in howling agony – from the human condition. It will never kill another person, ever.


Hopefully not but it is still sitting around in various government laboratories if you know what i mean.

Other Comments by BaronOchs

31. Comment #96922 by Slyer on December 11, 2007 at 5:13 am

 avatar
In 1978, there was evidently an escape of smallpox from containment in a research laboratory in Birmingham, England. A medical photographer, Janet Parker, died from the disease itself, after which the scientist responsible for the unit, Professor Henry Bedson, committed suicide. In light of this accident, all known stocks of smallpox were destroyed, except the stocks at the United States Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and the Russian State Research Center of Virology and Biotechnology VECTOR in Koltsovo, where a regiment of troops guards it. Under such tight control, smallpox would, it was thought, never be let out again. Even though the destruction of virus stocks was ordered in 1993, 1994, 1995, and 1996[citation needed], they have not yet been destroyed, since a number of researchers still wish to retain the stocks for scientific purposes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallpox#Post-eradication
Yep still exists, scary. Do we still get vaccinated for it? I don't know.

Other Comments by Slyer

32. Comment #96925 by notsobad on December 11, 2007 at 5:34 am

 avatar
Both are necessary notsobad, are you saying it's still okay to have a country plagued by disease as long as the birth rate is kept down?

Work on your reading and comprehension skills.

Other Comments by notsobad

33. Comment #96946 by Matt7895 on December 11, 2007 at 6:25 am

 avatar
I don't even let my cat piss on the Daily Mail just in case it gets infected by the vileness contained therein.


Aye, I don't use it as cat litter because it'll only get more shit on the pages.

Other Comments by Matt7895

34. Comment #96949 by panajache69 on December 11, 2007 at 6:33 am

 avatarNot to upset the coalition of like-minded here, but, vaccines do cause death and injury for some. If they didn't there would be no need for the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP).

http://www.909shot.com/Issues/Comp_Summary.htm

Also, there is far too much convenience-for-the-doctor in the vaccination programs. For example some babies are now being vaccinated in the delivery room, against the advise of the vaccine manufacturers.

I think science does itself no favors by hiding the fact that, while vaccination programs are wildly successful, some children pay for that success with their lives.

Other Comments by panajache69

35. Comment #96954 by matt_shute-07 on December 11, 2007 at 6:47 am

 avatarI remember reading a rant by Melanie Phillips about how all pornography is evil and wicked, even when the performers are consenting adults. Peter Hitchens, of the Mail on Sunday, has similar views. He also suggests that evolution is a myth, and that Intelligent Design should be offered to children as an alternative "theory". He was also one of the ring-leaders whipping up hysteria about MMR. The anti-science motive is fairly transparent.

It's a sign of the times that such extremists are given a platform, writing in a rag pumping out populist righ-wing drivel for the masses every day.

The propaganda does seem to have an effect, btw. My mother began buying the Daily Mail every day, and has been doing so for a couple of years now. Whenever I talk to her, lately, she sounds like Alf Garnet. "Britain is finished. All these immigrants pouring in to this country, breeding like flies." She's never even met an immigrant, as far as I know. And she used to be fairly liberal, believe it or not.

Other Comments by matt_shute-07

36. Comment #96961 by irate_atheist on December 11, 2007 at 6:53 am

 avatar34. Comment #96949 by panajache69 -

Yes, and some people had adverse reactions to blood transfusions, some are allergic to penicillin and others get food poisoning from poorly stored and undercooked pork.

This does not mean we should all refuse blood transfusions because of ignorant 1st century peasants, pray to an invisible man to avoid dying from serious infections or stop eating pork because of one cave dwelling mammal's porcophobia.

If they are going against manufacturers advice when vaccinating, you can hardly blame science in general or the manufacturer in particular. Blame the fool with the tool.

Vaccinations are a balance of risk and reward. The rewards, statistically speaking, far far outweigh the risk.

Oh, and may I ask, with the existence of the VICP, peer reviewed studies etc, how you conclude that science is "hiding" anything in regard to vaccination risk? It is only religion that wants a great ignorant mass to feed upon, not science, which in its way has done 'miracles' of its own in order to protect and feed that mass and keep it alive.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

37. Comment #96984 by notsobad on December 11, 2007 at 7:56 am

 avatarWhy wouldn't we stop eating pork? There is nothing good about pork. Don't tell me it tastes good. So do many other things.

Other Comments by notsobad

38. Comment #96989 by _J_ on December 11, 2007 at 8:06 am

 avatarWhat really makes me cross (okay, not quite as cross as realising that people are even today being misguided into disease and death by religion) is that Melanie Phillips gets given a national platform and a wedge of money for tapping out her brainless tripe, whilst I'll be answering phones again tomorrow.

Nice, though, to see that the Daily Mail is championing its counter-evolutionary agenda in deed as well as in word. Unlike all other known life, it apparently operates strictly in accordance with the principle of Survival of the Shittest.

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39. Comment #97029 by Tim Friede on December 11, 2007 at 9:58 am

As a primitive vaccinologist(non-degreed), I got a real hard time with this one.

I find it funny that religious folk often ask me to prove my vaccine works," go ahead, get bite by that black mamba, or better yet take a lethal dose".

Then I do, and they ask me if I'm religious, I must be to do that! I tell them that God just didn't save my life, science did. Actually, my IgG antibodies did.

Melanie, be very careful what comes out of your mouth, it's dangerous.I only post something when I'm sure I know what I'm talking about, and can prove it. You should follow suit! http://timfriede.com.

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40. Comment #97058 by Nephite on December 11, 2007 at 10:54 am

I wonder if there's any legal action we can take against these f***ing idiots.

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41. Comment #97104 by fun2bfree on December 11, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Well- look at it this way-those who refuse vaccination will be wiped out by the diseases that they are not immunized against and evolution will have the last laugh...

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42. Comment #97105 by konquererz on December 11, 2007 at 12:34 pm

 avatarDoes anyone ever wonder just how far scientifically we would be if religion had just shut the f*ck up! I mean really, we might have been to mars and back by 1600, eradicated AIDS and live in a society in which there is not such thing as a fuel that isn't clean. Religious people should be ashamed at how much their beliefs have held back humanity!

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43. Comment #97112 by justdust on December 11, 2007 at 12:53 pm

I think the JWs said it was OK for vaccinations in 1952(?) until then it was regarded as some sort of cannablism.

However, this isn't totally black and white - vaccinations (like virtually everything in lfe) do by their nature carry a risk - you just have to weigh this against the risk of not having it - and the risk of not having it decreases with the numbers of those having it - which is why Melanie Phillips and her ilk can get a look in.

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44. Comment #97129 by Burton on December 11, 2007 at 1:19 pm

 avatarThis is appalling. It is in a different league to "no blood transfusions 'cos god told me not to" and bombing abortion clinics. They are small scale, this could be global.

Religion leads to death through ignorance.

It should be OK (I think it is but maybe it should be easier) for a doctor or a friend to intervene (ie get medical proxy or something) on behalf of a child whose parents want to cause its death for a religios reason. Or even for a person who wants it for themselves.

If a friend of mine was dying and a blood transfusion they don't want for religios reasons would save them I would probably have a go at taking them to court and trying to force them to accept life saving treatment.

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45. Comment #97131 by Burton on December 11, 2007 at 1:23 pm

 avatarIf a patient refused a life saving organ transplant because the only available donor is/was black they would never be taken seriously. It isn't so different from not wanting any transplant at all.

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46. Comment #97134 by PaulJ on December 11, 2007 at 1:27 pm

 avatarThis looks like something that Dr. Ben Goldacre of Bad Science should be taking up. http://www.badscience.net/

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47. Comment #97139 by davidstvz on December 11, 2007 at 1:39 pm

Don't forget the religious loons in America who, although they believe in vaccines, are reluctant to give girls the HPV vaccine (human papilloma virus) which causes genital warts and a lot of cervical cancers. Naturally, their excuse is that they don't want to encourage illegitimate sexual behavior. What a bunch of dicks.

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48. Comment #97145 by Tumara Baap on December 11, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Americans famously deplore class distinctions. But even Colbert dropped his Southern demeanor for its negative connotations. A while back I read an Economist article that people in the U.S. automatically confer intelligence to a Brit. May be it's the clipped David Attenborough accent that accompanies good documentaries ;-) While the U.S. may have a lock on elite science and academia, the perception is that the average person on the street in other Western countries is more liberal, more worldly, and less religious than the American. At social functions, I notice those to the left of the culture war have an affinity for Western Europeans, assuming perhaps that they share a similar world view. An acquaintance of mine with a French wife has to continually contend with uninvited political bile from people he barely knows. When we see stories like one of the cravenly clueless Ms. Phillips in a major British newspaper, it is a little hard to believe. Maybe there is a kernel of truth to many stereotypes. But it's in order to be wary of even the positive ones.

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49. Comment #97154 by Tumara Baap on December 11, 2007 at 2:09 pm

Davidstvz, the HPV vaccination episode in the U.S. is hardly comparable to the measles vaccination situation. Sure there are always going to be individuals at the lower end of the brains Bell Curve, and Melanie Phillips is one of the first on the chart line. In the U.S., it is the *government* that has willfully ignored or undermined scientific data on HPV, sex education programs, the safety of Emergency Contraceptive pills (Plan B), etc. The West hasn't seen anything like it. For better comparison, the Taliban are a match.

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50. Comment #97156 by Prosthetic Head on December 11, 2007 at 2:14 pm

Unfortunately there are other peddlers of this dangerous nonsense. I speak of course of the homoeopathy mob. I work with an otherwise rational and intelligent guy in a scientific job. He however is looking to start a career in homoeopathy. He is dead set against vaccines and when I pushed him on the issue I got mostly vague talk about it weakening the immune system and suppressing your body's natural expression of symptoms. It was some of the most un-scientific stuff I've ever heard from someone at my company.
Homoeopathy seems to me to rely on a willing suspension of disbelief, and in most cases is fairly harmless placebo, but this aspect where it preaches against conventional medicine it is DANGEROUS.

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