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Friday, October 20, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching

by Terry Eagleton

(Here's another negative review. I think you might enjoy giving this review the sound thrashing it deserves. -Josh, RDF)

Big thanks to Jason Gersh for the link!

Reposted from:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins · Bantam, 406 pp, £20.00

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don't believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday.

Dawkins on God is rather like those right-wing Cambridge dons who filed eagerly into the Senate House some years ago to non-placet Jacques Derrida for an honorary degree. Very few of them, one suspects, had read more than a few pages of his work, and even that judgment might be excessively charitable. Yet they would doubtless have been horrified to receive an essay on Hume from a student who had not read his Treatise of Human Nature. There are always topics on which otherwise scrupulous minds will cave in with scarcely a struggle to the grossest prejudice. For a lot of academic psychologists, it is Jacques Lacan; for Oxbridge philosophers it is Heidegger; for former citizens of the Soviet bloc it is the writings of Marx; for militant rationalists it is religion.

What, one wonders, are Dawkins's views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them? Or does he imagine like a bumptious young barrister that you can defeat the opposition while being complacently ignorant of its toughest case? Dawkins, it appears, has sometimes been told by theologians that he sets up straw men only to bowl them over, a charge he rebuts in this book; but if The God Delusion is anything to go by, they are absolutely right. As far as theology goes, Dawkins has an enormous amount in common with Ian Paisley and American TV evangelists. Both parties agree pretty much on what religion is; it's just that Dawkins rejects it while Oral Roberts and his unctuous tribe grow fat on it.

A molehill of instances out of a mountain of them will have to suffice. Dawkins considers that all faith is blind faith, and that Christian and Muslim children are brought up to believe unquestioningly. Not even the dim-witted clerics who knocked me about at grammar school thought that. For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief. (Where, given that he invites us at one point to question everything, is Dawkins's own critique of science, objectivity, liberalism, atheism and the like?) Reason, to be sure, doesn't go all the way down for believers, but it doesn't for most sensitive, civilised non-religious types either. Even Richard Dawkins lives more by faith than by reason. We hold many beliefs that have no unimpeachably rational justification, but are nonetheless reasonable to entertain. Only positivists think that 'rational' means 'scientific'. Dawkins rejects the surely reasonable case that science and religion are not in competition on the grounds that this insulates religion from rational inquiry. But this is a mistake: to claim that science and religion pose different questions to the world is not to suggest that if the bones of Jesus were discovered in Palestine, the pope should get himself down to the dole queue as fast as possible. It is rather to claim that while faith, rather like love, must involve factual knowledge, it is not reducible to it. For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in love with you himself.

Dawkins holds that the existence or non-existence of God is a scientific hypothesis which is open to rational demonstration. Christianity teaches that to claim that there is a God must be reasonable, but that this is not at all the same thing as faith. Believing in God, whatever Dawkins might think, is not like concluding that aliens or the tooth fairy exist. God is not a celestial super-object or divine UFO, about whose existence we must remain agnostic until all the evidence is in. Theologians do not believe that he is either inside or outside the universe, as Dawkins thinks they do. His transcendence and invisibility are part of what he is, which is not the case with the Loch Ness monster. This is not to say that religious people believe in a black hole, because they also consider that God has revealed himself: not, as Dawkins thinks, in the guise of a cosmic manufacturer even smarter than Dawkins himself (the New Testament has next to nothing to say about God as Creator), but for Christians at least, in the form of a reviled and murdered political criminal. The Jews of the so-called Old Testament had faith in God, but this does not mean that after debating the matter at a number of international conferences they decided to endorse the scientific hypothesis that there existed a supreme architect of the universe — even though, as Genesis reveals, they were of this opinion. They had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you. They may well have been mistaken in their view; but they were not mistaken because their scientific hypothesis was unsound.

Dawkins speaks scoffingly of a personal God, as though it were entirely obvious exactly what this might mean. He seems to imagine God, if not exactly with a white beard, then at least as some kind of chap, however supersized. He asks how this chap can speak to billions of people simultaneously, which is rather like wondering why, if Tony Blair is an octopus, he has only two arms. For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person in the sense that Al Gore arguably is. Nor is he a principle, an entity, or 'existent': in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects.

This, not some super-manufacturing, is what is traditionally meant by the claim that God is Creator. He is what sustains all things in being by his love; and this would still be the case even if the universe had no beginning. To say that he brought it into being ex nihilo is not a measure of how very clever he is, but to suggest that he did it out of love rather than need. The world was not the consequence of an inexorable chain of cause and effect. Like a Modernist work of art, there is no necessity about it at all, and God might well have come to regret his handiwork some aeons ago. The Creation is the original acte gratuit. God is an artist who did it for the sheer love or hell of it, not a scientist at work on a magnificently rational design that will impress his research grant body no end.

Because the universe is God's, it shares in his life, which is the life of freedom. This is why it works all by itself, and why science and Richard Dawkins are therefore both possible. The same is true of human beings: God is not an obstacle to our autonomy and enjoyment but, as Aquinas argues, the power that allows us to be ourselves. Like the unconscious, he is closer to us than we are to ourselves. He is the source of our self-determination, not the erasure of it. To be dependent on him, as to be dependent on our friends, is a matter of freedom and fulfilment. Indeed, friendship is the word Aquinas uses to characterise the relation between God and humanity.

Dawkins, who is as obsessed with the mechanics of Creation as his Creationist opponents, understands nothing of these traditional doctrines. Nor does he understand that because God is transcendent of us (which is another way of saying that he did not have to bring us about), he is free of any neurotic need for us and wants simply to be allowed to love us. Dawkins's God, by contrast, is Satanic. Satan ('accuser' in Hebrew) is the misrecognition of God as Big Daddy and punitive judge, and Dawkins's God is precisely such a repulsive superego. This false consciousness is overthrown in the person of Jesus, who reveals the Father as friend and lover rather than judge. Dawkins's Supreme Being is the God of those who seek to avert divine wrath by sacrificing animals, being choosy in their diet and being impeccably well behaved. They cannot accept the scandal that God loves them just as they are, in all their moral shabbiness. This is one reason St Paul remarks that the law is cursed. Dawkins sees Christianity in terms of a narrowly legalistic notion of atonement — of a brutally vindictive God sacrificing his own child in recompense for being offended — and describes the belief as vicious and obnoxious. It's a safe bet that the Archbishop of Canterbury couldn't agree more. It was the imperial Roman state, not God, that murdered Jesus.

Dawkins thinks it odd that Christians don't look eagerly forward to death, given that they will thereby be ushered into paradise. He does not see that Christianity, like most religious faiths, values human life deeply, which is why the martyr differs from the suicide. The suicide abandons life because it has become worthless; the martyr surrenders his or her most precious possession for the ultimate well-being of others. This act of self-giving is generally known as sacrifice, a word that has unjustly accrued all sorts of politically incorrect implications. Jesus, Dawkins speculates, might have desired his own betrayal and death, a case the New Testament writers deliberately seek to rebuff by including the Gethsemane scene, in which Jesus is clearly panicking at the prospect of his impending execution. They also put words into his mouth when he is on the cross to make much the same point. Jesus did not die because he was mad or masochistic, but because the Roman state and its assorted local lackeys and running dogs took fright at his message of love, mercy and justice, as well as at his enormous popularity with the poor, and did away with him to forestall a mass uprising in a highly volatile political situation. Several of Jesus' close comrades were probably Zealots, members of an anti-imperialist underground movement. Judas' surname suggests that he may have been one of them, which makes his treachery rather more intelligible: perhaps he sold out his leader in bitter disenchantment, recognising that he was not, after all, the Messiah. Messiahs are not born in poverty; they do not spurn weapons of destruction; and they tend to ride into the national capital in bullet-proof limousines with police outriders, not on a donkey.

Jesus, who pace Dawkins did indeed 'derive his ethics from the Scriptures' (he was a devout Jew, not the founder of a fancy new set-up), was a joke of a Messiah. He was a carnivalesque parody of a leader who understood, so it would appear, that any regime not founded on solidarity with frailty and failure is bound to collapse under its own hubris. The symbol of that failure was his crucifixion. In this faith, he was true to the source of life he enigmatically called his Father, who in the guise of the Old Testament Yahweh tells the Hebrews that he hates their burnt offerings and that their incense stinks in his nostrils. They will know him for what he is, he reminds them, when they see the hungry being filled with good things and the rich being sent empty away. You are not allowed to make a fetish or graven image of this God, since the only image of him is human flesh and blood. Salvation for Christianity has to do with caring for the sick and welcoming the immigrant, protecting the poor from the violence of the rich. It is not a 'religious' affair at all, and demands no special clothing, ritual behaviour or fussiness about diet. (The Catholic prohibition on meat on Fridays is an unscriptural church regulation.)

Jesus hung out with whores and social outcasts, was remarkably casual about sex, disapproved of the family (the suburban Dawkins is a trifle queasy about this), urged us to be laid-back about property and possessions, warned his followers that they too would die violently, and insisted that the truth kills and divides as well as liberates. He also cursed self-righteous prigs and deeply alarmed the ruling class.

The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life — but only by virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition. This is known as the resurrection. Those who don't see this dreadful image of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress, for which Dawkins is a full-blooded apologist. Or they might be well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian standpoint simply isn't radical enough.

The central doctrine of Christianity, then, is not that God is a bastard. It is, in the words of the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe, that if you don't love you're dead, and if you do, they'll kill you. Here, then, is your pie in the sky and opium of the people. It was, of course, Marx who coined that last phrase; but Marx, who in the same passage describes religion as the 'heart of a heartless world, the soul of soulless conditions', was rather more judicious and dialectical in his judgment on it than the lunging, flailing, mispunching Dawkins.

Now it may well be that all this is no more plausible than the tooth fairy. Most reasoning people these days will see excellent grounds to reject it. But critics of the richest, most enduring form of popular culture in human history have a moral obligation to confront that case at its most persuasive, rather than grabbing themselves a victory on the cheap by savaging it as so much garbage and gobbledygook. The mainstream theology I have just outlined may well not be true; but anyone who holds it is in my view to be respected, whereas Dawkins considers that no religious belief, anytime or anywhere, is worthy of any respect whatsoever. This, one might note, is the opinion of a man deeply averse to dogmatism. Even moderate religious views, he insists, are to be ferociously contested, since they can always lead to fanaticism.

Some currents of the liberalism that Dawkins espouses have nowadays degenerated into a rather nasty brand of neo-liberalism, but in my view this is no reason not to champion liberalism. In some obscure way, Dawkins manages to imply that the Bishop of Oxford is responsible for Osama bin Laden. His polemic would come rather more convincingly from a man who was a little less arrogantly triumphalistic about science (there are a mere one or two gestures in the book to its fallibility), and who could refrain from writing sentences like 'this objection [to a particular scientific view] can be answered by the suggestion . . . that there are many universes,' as though a suggestion constituted a scientific rebuttal. On the horrors that science and technology have wreaked on humanity, he is predictably silent. Yet the Apocalypse is far more likely to be the product of them than the work of religion. Swap you the Inquisition for chemical warfare.

Such is Dawkins's unruffled scientific impartiality that in a book of almost four hundred pages, he can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith, a view which is as a priori improbable as it is empirically false. The countless millions who have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history — and this by a self-appointed crusader against bigotry. He is like a man who equates socialism with the Gulag. Like the puritan and sex, Dawkins sees God everywhere, even where he is self-evidently absent. He thinks, for example, that the ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland would evaporate if religion did, which to someone like me, who lives there part of the time, betrays just how little he knows about it. He also thinks rather strangely that the terms Loyalist and Nationalist are 'euphemisms' for Protestant and Catholic, and clearly doesn't know the difference between a Loyalist and a Unionist or a Nationalist and a Republican. He also holds, against a good deal of the available evidence, that Islamic terrorism is inspired by religion rather than politics.

These are not just the views of an enraged atheist. They are the opinions of a readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal rationalist. Reading Dawkins, who occasionally writes as though 'Thou still unravish'd bride of quietness' is a mighty funny way to describe a Grecian urn, one can be reasonably certain that he would not be Europe's greatest enthusiast for Foucault, psychoanalysis, agitprop, Dadaism, anarchism or separatist feminism. All of these phenomena, one imagines, would be as distasteful to his brisk, bloodless rationality as the virgin birth. Yet one can of course be an atheist and a fervent fan of them all. His God-hating, then, is by no means simply the view of a scientist admirably cleansed of prejudice. It belongs to a specific cultural context. One would not expect to muster many votes for either anarchism or the virgin birth in North Oxford. (I should point out that I use the term North Oxford in an ideological rather than geographical sense. Dawkins may be relieved to know that I don't actually know where he lives.)

There is a very English brand of common sense that believes mostly in what it can touch, weigh and taste, and The God Delusion springs from, among other places, that particular stable. At its most philistine and provincial, it makes Dick Cheney sound like Thomas Mann. The secular Ten Commandments that Dawkins commends to us, one of which advises us to enjoy our sex lives so long as they don't damage others, are for the most part liberal platitudes. Dawkins quite rightly detests fundamentalists; but as far as I know his anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred, anxiety, insecurity and sense of humiliation that breed fundamentalism. Instead, as the obtuse media chatter has it, it's all down to religion.

It thus comes as no surprise that Dawkins turns out to be an old-fashioned Hegelian when it comes to global politics, believing in a zeitgeist (his own term) involving ever increasing progress, with just the occasional 'reversal'. 'The whole wave,' he rhapsodises in the finest Whiggish manner, 'keeps moving.' There are, he generously concedes, 'local and temporary setbacks' like the present US government — as though that regime were an electoral aberration, rather than the harbinger of a drastic transformation of the world order that we will probably have to live with for as long as we can foresee. Dawkins, by contrast, believes, in his Herbert Spencerish way, that 'the progressive trend is unmistakable and it will continue.' So there we are, then: we have it from the mouth of Mr Public Science himself that aside from a few local, temporary hiccups like ecological disasters, famine, ethnic wars and nuclear wastelands, History is perpetually on the up.

Apart from the occasional perfunctory gesture to 'sophisticated' religious believers, Dawkins tends to see religion and fundamentalist religion as one and the same. This is not only grotesquely false; it is also a device to outflank any more reflective kind of faith by implying that it belongs to the coterie and not to the mass. The huge numbers of believers who hold something like the theology I outlined above can thus be conveniently lumped with rednecks who murder abortionists and malign homosexuals. As far as such outrages go, however, The God Delusion does a very fine job indeed. The two most deadly texts on the planet, apart perhaps from Donald Rumsfeld's emails, are the Bible and the Koran; and Dawkins, as one the best of liberals as well as one of the worst, has done a magnificent job over the years of speaking out against that particular strain of psychopathology known as fundamentalism, whether Texan or Taliban. He is right to repudiate the brand of mealy-mouthed liberalism which believes that one has to respect other people's silly or obnoxious ideas just because they are other people's. In its admirably angry way, The God Delusion argues that the status of atheists in the US is nowadays about the same as that of gays fifty years ago. The book is full of vivid vignettes of the sheer horrors of religion, fundamentalist or otherwise. Nearly 50 per cent of Americans believe that a glorious Second Coming is imminent, and some of them are doing their damnedest to bring it about. But Dawkins could have told us all this without being so appallingly bitchy about those of his scientific colleagues who disagree with him, and without being so theologically illiterate. He might also have avoided being the second most frequently mentioned individual in his book — if you count God as an individual.

Terry Eagleton is John Edward Taylor Professor of English Literature at Manchester University. His latest book is How to Read a Poem.

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51. Comment #2478 by Zaphod on October 21, 2006 at 12:13 pm

Preposterous and a kind of intellectual snobber.

This man is basically saying you must have a doctorate in Theology or be an arch bishop to understand it. Utter nonsense.

If this is the case then noone on the religious/creationist/ intelligent design side of the fence can ever even talk about Darawinism unless they have a PhD in biology. Again Utter nonsense.

Richard Dawkins hasn't really written this for Professors of English Literature or Theology Majors. As he has said in many interviews it is mainly for people who are sitting on the fence, for people who may think of themselves as religious but really aren't and are looking for an alternative.

Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching is your article Terry Eagleton or John Edward Taylor.

What the hell (pardon the pun) is the point in writting under an alias if your name is at the bottom of the article anyway. Pointless.

52. Comment #2479 by Jay on October 21, 2006 at 12:16 pm

"Face the reality that religion is never, ever, going to disappear."

There are dozens of religions that have perished: Posideon, Mithras, Zeus. Maybe not in my lifetime, but our extant Abrahamic god will be exposed as a parallel dweller among all those ancient gods where it took hold of despirate and spactacularly ignorant minds.

Your assesment of the quest of athiests needs some guideance. Science has proven that the universe is indeed mysterious, but it is also extremely orderly and knowable. Nothing has been found to suggest otherwise. The facts from all fields of rigorous study elegantly interweave. Then there are these ancient books of mythology buoyed from the dark past by the Orthodox Christians like Eusebius who outright lies about the path of the religion during the first 3 centuries only to be found out in this century from the discovery of lost texts around the world such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Peter, Nag Hammadi texts, to name just a few. These ancient fictions sit as a tumor amidst the vascular interlocks of actual knowledge and displace true knowledge by its fantasies promoted now as falsities. And the immobile religions are straining as the river of actual knowledge ever widens. We are witnessing this even now, exemplified by the honorific work of Dawkins and those of us banning together on this site. The evidence from nature and history is so overwhelming that the Bible is merely a story (scary one!) that I think many atheists may share my own mission of systematically communicating this evidence to those around us. Facts are neither hostile nor benign. Please, instead of these hostile pleaing negative reviews, lets get the countering facts, if you have them, out for honest review, shall we?

53. Comment #2482 by Russ on October 21, 2006 at 12:34 pm

In post 102. Comment #2426 Diplo makes a great point, "The idea that you have to be an expert in Theology before you can criticise religion is as ridiculous as stating you have to have a PhD in Faerology before you can debunk fairies and pixies."

Fact is, anyone can be a theologian. If there isn't a religion that currently suits you, just make one up - Smith did it with Mormonism(the second "m" is there to avoid confusion) or base it on a science fiction novel like Hubbard did for Scientology. In fact, if you roll your own, as opposed to trying to absorb the twisted shit somebody made up for another religion, you instantly become "the world's foremost authority" on your religion -- instant theologian, par excellence. Cool, huh? Once you've jumped the becoming-a-theologian hurdle, then you have to act like a theologian. Fortunately, that's a no-brainer, too, you simply need to know how the religion industry theology moguls do it.

Theology is conducted as thought experiments applied to premises asserted to be true. Understand this: the starting premises in theology are asserted to be true -- not under consideration, not provisional, not subject to change if determined to be false -- they are defined to be true. The source of those seminal truths is always some combination of revelation, authority, or tradition. The truth-adorned theologian proceeds to deduce truism after truism with the proviso that, if at any step in the logical process, a contradiction occurs, the theologian is himself wrong. Remember that the starting premises were defined so nothing false can ever be deduced.

A contradiction is a logical impossibility, but, since that can't ever occur when deducing from theology's starting truths, the theologian frets not and simply pops open his Theology Patch Kit which we non-theological types recognize by the name Apologetics. Don't be afraid, it's actually quite easy to understand: "Apologetics" is the theological synonym for "making shit up," in this case, making shit up to create the impression that no gnarly contradiction exists. Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary defines apologetics as "a branch of theology devoted to the defense of the divine origin and authority of Christianity." Notice the absence of the word "truth" from the definition. Each time he stitches up a tear in the theological fabric with another novel apologetic approach, the theologian lumps it back in with the starting defined truths, Biblical or apologetic, and the thought experiments continue.

Theo the Theologian loves apologetics: "Boy, evolution sure screws up my truths. How can I fix it. Oh, of course, how silly of me! Where is my spray can of Apologetics Brand Contradiction-Be-Gone? Oh, there it is. I'll just give evolution a spritz or two. Pssssst. Pssssst. Wait a moment, let it soak in. That's it. Now, I see much more clearly. That's right! EVOLUTION NEVER HAPPENED! Thank you, Apologetics Brand Contradiction-Be-Gone, you saved the day. Now, for the rest of my life, whenever it comes up, I say, EVOLUTION NEVER HAPPENED!"

The Bible consists of about a million characters of text, but that text is so incredibly flawed that the associated apologetics runs into multiple billions of charcters of additional made up shit to putty up the cracks of social, chronological, textual, logical, factual and moral contradictions. Every one of the more than 20000 distinct Christian sects in the world has used the Bible, or, more correctly, some chunk of it, as their cornerstone, then built a great edifice of sect-specific apologetics around that chosen Biblical snippet. Take note: most of Christian theology comes not from the Bible, but from the apologetics peculiar to a specifc denomination.

So, go ahead, give it a try, invent a religion, become a theologian and have fun making shit up.

54. Comment #2485 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 12:51 pm

"Face the reality that religion is never, ever, going to disappear."

There are dozens of religions that have perished: Posideon, Mithras, Zeus. Maybe not in my lifetime, but our extant Abrahamic god will be exposed as a parallel dweller among all those ancient gods where it took hold of despirate and spactacularly ignorant minds.

Jay

The theistic 'Abrahamic god' has been 'dead' for a very long time. He has been killed off by christian theologians. As I wrote, in another post to this site, The God Delusion might well put the final nail in his coffin - and thus give him a very public burial. But make no mistake, Richard Dawkins has not, let me repeat this, Richard Dawkins has not, in any manner whatsoever, been instrumental in the demise of the 'Abrahamic god'.

The theologians are one step ahead of Dawkins: 'Christianity without God' might be a book he could take a look at. (Lloyd Geering: Emeritus Professor of Religious Studies at Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand).

55. Comment #2487 by island on October 21, 2006 at 12:59 pm

If this is the case then noone on the religious/creationist/intelligent design side of the fence can ever even talk about Darawinism unless they have a PhD in biology.

No, cosmological ID discounts biologists too, so the solution is for everybody to just shut-up, and yano what?... that would work!... ;)

56. Comment #2490 by maryhelena on October 21, 2006 at 1:17 pm

A final word, from me, on this review and the heat it has generated - a quote from Eagleton himself:

"There are two things desirable for fighting fundamentalists. The first is not to be one yourself."

57. Comment #2492 by Jakob on October 21, 2006 at 1:24 pm

Wow. Attacking the view of religion as a set of unsupported scientific claims, and offering as evidence... Completely unsupported (and indeed largely meaningless) scientific claims. Bravo.

58. Comment #2518 by Greywizard on October 21, 2006 at 3:54 pm

There is something troubling about this discussion -- at least to me. One of the things that Dawkins, I think, is trying to do, is to encourage critical thinking about the world, human life, society, etc. Whatever we think about we should do it thoughtfully, carefully, and critically.

Eagleton's point, whether he makes his case or not, is that Dawkins himself too often expresses himself uncritically. I think, as I have already said, that Eagleton is often wrong about where he sees shortcomings in "The God Delusion." Ophelia Benson pointed out a short while ago, that there is reason to doubt Eagleton's claim that "For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief." One sign of this, however, may be that it was within Christian culture that science, even though it sometimes had a rough ride, developed. And biblical writers themselves, as Don Cupitt claims (with some reason) in his latest book, had at least digested Plato, if not Aristotle. So, while it may not be entirely true, I think there is some (rather slight) basis for the claim.

So, it just won't do to dismiss religious claims without doing the hard work of thinking, and sometimes, I think, Dawkins does gloss over some of the harder work, and does not exercise the same amount of critical thought about the beliefs he is dismissing as the does in his scientific work. He's not a theologian or a philosopher of religion, and possibly he hasn't really gone in depth into some of the questions that religious beliefs raise for those who have thought deeply about these things. If he hasn't, then we need to be able to say so. One of the things that troubles me about this discussion is that the responses to Eagleton's criticisms are often more dogmatic, if anything, than many theologians I have read.

I admire Dawkins -- have done for years -- and I think he has many valuable things to say in his new book. I do think, however, that it has its shortcomings. No, you don't have to have a PhD in theology to write about god. Nor do you have to have PhD is philosophy to write about religion. But both theologians and philosophers, for all that, have been talking about these things for a long time, and they have also thought, some of them (even theologians!) deeply. I think occasionally that Dawkins' book would have been better if he had bothered to read some of them, and ponder them just a little more.

Of books about atheism I think Julian Baggini's little very short introduction (in the OUP series) is especially good. I like what he says under the heading "Honk if you're an atheist." "In summary," he writes, "the aim of this book is to provide a positive view of atheism, one which does not make the mistake of thinking that atheism can only exist as a parasitic rival to theism, or that atheism is essentially negative about a whole range of beliefs other than those concerning God's existence. ... Atheists can be indifferent rather than hostile to religious belief." (und so wieder)

Perhaps Dawkins' more negative approach is necessary at this time. I think some of his critics fail to recognize how dangerous religion has become today. But if we're going to beat religion at the polls, we're go to have to do it by being smarter, more critical and more sensitive to human needs. I'm sorry to say, I don't see a lot of that -- there are some significant and important exceptions -- here.

59. Comment #2602 by island on October 22, 2006 at 3:49 am

Progressive atheists - Code word for extremist.

What point could creationists possibly make?

Well, if there is say, just for discussion, purpose in nature, in the form of some kind of thermodynamic structuring that is simply biased toward an idealization that can't be realized, then who carries the torch for the recognition of this?... other than creationists.

Richard Dawkins said:
"Natural selection is an anti-chance process, which gradually builds up complexity, step by tiny step. The end product of this ratcheting process is an eye, or a heart, or a brain - a device whose improbable complexity is utterly baffling until you spot the gentle ramp that leads up to it."

I assume that Richard knows that he's talking about this:
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASYMTRANS.html>Asymmetric transitions
http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/ASYMILL.html>Illustrated

This is also what happens when we make real, massive particles from vacuum energy, and they even make the connection to vacuum energy at the bottom of the first page, although they don't pick-up on the application as it applies to matter generation from ***negative*** vacuum energy. It is highly probable that a true anthropic constraint on the forces of the universe will necessarily include the human evolutionary process, which indicates that there exists a mechanism that enables the universe to "leap".

And here I find ole' Richard talking about exactly that mechanism!... but trying to lose the significance of this extremely important implication within some imagined inifinity of possibility. Do you have any idea how something like this would elevate the theory of evolution, Richard?!? This would make the TOE, the ToE!

I told Lee Smolin and a bunch of other theorists about this, and the closest thing that I got back to a reply was from Lawrence Krauss, who "sees no purpose in nature".

Course, he's also the same guy that said this, so I have to wonder what it takes if creationists don't carry the torch that prevents extremists from destroying empirically supported science:

"But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe."

60. Comment #2625 by Russ on October 22, 2006 at 8:15 am

Greywizard, in post 141. Comment #2518, you talked about doubts surrounding an Eagleton quote, but doubt does not begin to describe how any informed intelligent person should think about Eagleton's demonstrably false claim, "For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always played an integral role in belief." This is total fantasy on Eagleton's part. For a respected public figure to make such a statement is irresponsible.

Reason, argument and doubt (RAD)can be powerful tools for teasing truth from the natural world, but applying them to alleged supernatural phenomena is absurd. Here, get some truth from this:

Day 1: Gen. 1:3 God said, "Let there be light"
Notice it does not say that God created light. If you want this to mean that God made light, you have to make that up. You must make up a property of God that suggests he can create light. To apply reason, one must be certain of the terms.
Day 1: Gen. 1:5 God called the light Day.
Day 4: Gen. 1:14-16 God says "Let there be lights in the firmament"...and God made "two great lights"

Now, ignoring the fact that to try to understand anything about this you need to know what God is beforehand, ask yourself how the light exists on day one without the stars created on day 4. Now, ask yourself this: did God not know that the Moon, "the lesser light to rule the night," only reflects light, it is not a source of light. In the world of reason, the first chapter of Genesis is riddled with problems. But theologically, Can any of it be rejected if contradictions arise? How many people have wasted their lives trying to get a rational result, arguing from similar false premises of religion? What comes from applying reason to ignorance embraced as sacred?

The history of Christianity is peppered with prominent church leader's denouncements of reason. Tertullian around 200 AD advised that: "Divine revelation, not reason, is the source of all truth." Martin Luther said, "Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God." We do not have to think back too many centuries to a time when any dissent could land one in prison or worse. What in fact was Galileo's heresy, if not reason, argument and honest doubt? The word "heretic" was adopted by Christians initially to describe other Christians who, using reason, argument and honest doubt, divined a different sense of scripture.

Today, in the US, many Christian schools from grade school through university level require incoming students to attest with both spoken vows and signed statements that they will never question a literal interpretation of the Bible.

Eagleton's quote is fantasy, pure and simple.

61. Comment #2685 by Russ on October 22, 2006 at 5:44 pm

Some of the posts on this thread suggest that theology is a legitimate area of study, but it's not. My earlier post 132. Comment #2482 is actually reasonably accurate for most theology. At most theological seminaries, "theology" means "doctrine," period. Comparative theology, a descriptive discipline, is quite interesting if you like contrasting one form of ritual to another. If, however, you are more interested in theology as a way to understand behavior, you are much better off studying behavioral psychology.

And, very seriously, it literally is the case that you can simply concoct your own religion, if you don't like what's available. Your idea of religion is as legitimate as anyone elses, even if, exactly like every other religion, you make it up as you go along. If you get stumped, just make up more stuff. Christians do it constantly.

If you want a theology doctorate, you can buy some nice certificate stock, print up your own degree from the university in your garage, and start calling yourself Doctor Somethingorother. Your freshly minted degree implies just as much meaning as a degree from Harvard, the only difference is that Harvard theology students study stuff someone else made up, while your degree is for what you made up. In the grand scheme of the fiction that is theology, there is no difference. In the US almost all religious "Doctors" are Honorary Degrees purchased with a donation to a religious college. Religion here is a market-based free-for-all. Put up a sign, start collecting tax-free donations and you are a church. Soon, there may be no checks on it whatsoever.

If the study of theology could offer mankind better hope for the future it might have some legitimacy. But it does not. How do we know? History, lots of history. Centuries of theology have amounted to basically zilch. Churches might do some all-natural humanitarian aid, just like many secularist groups do, but that is completely independent of theology. Theology like the recent Catholic meetings to decide if they should keep limbo. By itself, that should tell you that if that decision is theirs to make - keep limbo or discard it - then, at some point, they made it up. Tens of thousands of people die each day from preventable causes and they waste resources debating stuff they themselves made up. Where is the legitimacy? Theology like Martin Luther confronting issues like "are women human?" Imagine the horrific psychological struggles a rational intelligent person would face if on the first day of theology he was handed a Bible and told, "Our starting premise is that every word in that Bible is literally true, exactly as written, no questions asked." Reason must at that point be abandoned, which is, of course, the very essence of theology.

62. Comment #2712 by Clapton_is_God on October 23, 2006 at 2:46 am

An apologist word-salad almost as incomprehensible as the pseudo-intellectual ramblings of the post-modernist philosphers he mentions at the beginning of his review.

One assumes the Professor Eagleton is an intelligent person. How can someone that intelligent not observe the world around him?

CiG

63. Comment #2755 by Christopher on October 23, 2006 at 9:00 am

This was a well written review. I am not familiar with the situation in the UK, however, the hope that there is this mainstream branch of Christianity poised to make a comeback and rescue the God-Hypothesis from the crazed fundamentalists and their evil twin sisters, the unbelievers, seems rather unlikely if you look at what is going on here in the United States. Church attendance figures show a major shift away from moderate Protestant and Catholic churches and toward Evangelical Fundamentalism which Prof. Eagleton seems to clearly see the dangers of.

64. Comment #2756 by Clive Bradley on October 23, 2006 at 9:08 am

I'm with Johnc on a lot of this. And I don't think he's been either arrogant or pseudo-intellectual. These are perfectly valid arguments which require proper debate.

Theology may be a non-subject in the sense that it refers to God, who does not exist. But the early history of philosophy, for instance, is wrapped up with theology. I'm not talking only about Christian philosophers. But Bertrand Russell, whom people have mentioned here as a good role model, devoted a substantial part of his History of Western Philosophy to an account of - and engagement with - philosophical thinkers who were Christian theologians, too. And that tradition laid the basis for the modern scientific method.

(Of course the scientific method grew in *opposition* to religious authority, too. But it wasn't straight forward).

What is perplexing about this discussion is that many of its participants seem to think that to make this point - which is partly what Eagleton is doing - means you are defending theology in the sense of arguing for God.

Coupled with that is a lot of complaint that people can't understand what Eagleton is saying. I don't doubt he could learn some lessons about lucidity from Dawkins. But for the most part I don't think his review is difficult to understand. Some science, it has to be said, is utterly incomprehensible to most people, including me. That doesn't make it, ipso facto, pretentious, pseudo-intellectual, or whatever. (It doesn't make it right, either, of course). And I do think there's a strain of criticism of Eagleton in this thread which is pretty anti-intellectual (in both senses: philistine about ideas, and dismissive of people who are academics).

I tend to agree with Dawkins on NOMA. But Gould was certainly right, against Dawkins, in one sense - a far greater desire to understand *why* people look to God and priests; the social conditions which encourage belief (another of Eagleton's points). Dawkins often seems to think it's just because they haven't had atheism explained to them properly. And while proper explanation will obviously help, the world is a more complex and difficult place.

65. Comment #2797 by Russ on October 23, 2006 at 3:46 pm

Elle,

Please don't ever pray for me. If you want to do something useful, don't close your eyes in prayer, open them, recognize some human need in your neighborhood and fix it. Make and share dinner with some elderly person whose children seem ever absent. Read to the kids at daycare. Flowers planted in a vacant lot brightens the area for everyone. Volunteer at an office on aging. A big need in Texas is volunteer bi-lingual translators for medical offices, social services offices, and refugee service offices. Volunteer as a tutor in literacy training. Help out at Red Cross Blood services. Put some time in at Habitat for Humanity. Paint a porch. Fix a screen door. Be a docent at a park, zoo, or museum. Help a neighbor child with their homework.

I'm an atheist, a strict materialist, but I love my fellow man. In this calendar year, I have done each of the things in that list. Not to be praised by church members, not for laudits from anyone, and certainly not to buy my way to an imaginary fantasyland, but because my fellow man is far more worthy an investment than is some silly notion of god, religion or church. All-natural humanity deserves every good thing I can afford to give.

If you do one of these things, or one of a million others, you will be bettering mankind; you will make a real tangible observable difference in the world. When you pray, you both waste your time and leave a real concern unaddressed. Don't pray - do something!

66. Comment #2944 by Sean on October 24, 2006 at 9:18 pm

First let me state that I myself am an agnostic and am much more inclined to Dawkins' perspective than Eagleton's. I believe in reason rather than miracles. But reason requires that we subject everything, whether we agree or disagree with it, to at least a moderate level of critical scrutiny, atheism and our belief in reason among them.

The sheer ignorance of those who have launched ad hominem attacks upon an author with whom they are utterly unfamiliar in these comments is apalling. You should be ashamed of yourselves for not taking the time to at least google the phrase, "Terry Eagleton," before asseting that, for instance, "perhaps Prof Terry Eagleton would love to be in the limelight for his academic work but he isn't" (#2313). He is, Topmum, and has been for decades.

But the real violence that the commenters have done is to the realm of ideas. The blithe, a priori assumptions of many here, such as Josh Timonen ("He says this as if there was anything actually to be learned from theology, as if there was some database of knowledge that theologians kept separately to themselves.--#2283), belie a fundamental ignorance of the vitally important role that theology has played in the development of logic and reason in the history of thought. From Aristotle to Descartes, Aquinas to Kant, the theological mindset has actually been a tremendous influence in the development of reason and science; in a profound sense, your very belief in science, which animates Brian Coughlan's statement that, "Either god is empirically observable or he isn't. And I think we can agree that he isn't. Thus "study" of god is a pointless waste of everyones time, and worse, a cover for religious extremism" (#2295), is something you owe to theology. This is something too many of you are evidently unaware. (An aside: what does Mr. Coughlan have to say about string theory? That is certainly not "empirically observable." So is it not science? And what might he say to Mike Torr (#2333) regarding the "bold thinking" of the 'multiple universe' solution?)

There is also a distressing lack of understanding of the assumptions upon which science is based. Has none of these individuals ever questioned their own epistemology? Has none ever questioned the veracity of their own senses? I say this not to denigrate the scientific method, which is far and away the best means we have of knowing anything at all, but rather to illustrate the point that even our reliance upon reason is based in a certain set of assumptions. Assumptions, you might be interested to know, which were bequeathed to us in large part by men of faith. Greywizard is almost singular here in his evident knowledge of this most basic problem.

Finally (although there are many more points I could make), it is rather sad to see how far many of you have strayed, in the making of your arguments, from the very reason which you claim to espouse. Take Jason Gersh (#2291), who asks, 'Would Eagleton prefer that Dawkins be an “irrationalist”?' I can't answer that for you, Mr. Gersh, but I suspect he'd prefer his critics avoid the false dichotomy, especially when critiquing the validity of his own argument from authority. Or take Mr. Coughlan again, this time employing the straw man fallacy (#2288): "Imagine if people insisted we worship Santa Claus or Luke Skywalker." Well, Mr. Caoughlan, imagine if scientists claimed that everything was "bunk" until it could be proven? Oh wait, that is what you are saying. Any scientists out there want to agree with that one? The distinction between poppycock and the unexplained seems to be lost on you. Imagine a pre-Newtonian thinker actually claiming that things falling reliably toward the earth was "bunk" simply because gravitation had not yet come along to explain it! And then there's the oft-repeated complaint that the claims of religion can't be proven, or at least aren't in Eagleton's review. Do you not understand that this was not Eagleton's point? Do you fail to grasp that no one has ever claimed to prove the existence of god in the space alotted a reviewer in the London Review of Books? No theologian has ever made an airtight case for the existence of god, but neither has any atheist been able to prove that the big bang, for instance, happened as a result of purely natural, explainable causes. Aristotle reasoned his way back to a prime mover; are the atheists on this board unwilling to acknowledge the possibility even of that?

I don't defend Eagleton's arguments in toto--he makes too many blithe assumptions and the tone of his invective is far too sharp to be taken without a generous helping of salt--but I don't discount them simply because I don't agree with them. You may have many good reasons to disagree with his review, but any reasons you have to dismiss it without further question are the result of your own ignorance. I should hope that your self-styled commitment to reason would encourage you to remedy that.

67. Comment #2958 by maryhelena on October 25, 2006 at 12:44 am

Sean

I've no intention of getting back into this tread - just been keeping an eye on Dawkins'Storm Troopers. However, I want very much to say that I found your post quite a brilliant summation of what has been going on here. Well done, indeed.

68. Comment #3102 by John C on October 25, 2006 at 2:23 pm

This is taken from my reply to a thread about this review over on Metafilter (http://www.metafilter.com/mefi/55795#comment) but I figured I would post it here as well.
______________________________________________

I'm not sure why Eagleton's review is being touted as if it were a deafening blow to Dawkins' book. While it certainly is more articulate than most reviews of the book ("If there's no God, we'd all be killing each other!") it is hardly a rebuttal of Dawkins' thesis.

Eagleton writes "Card carrying rationalists like Dawkins are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they don't believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding."

In other words, "They can't understand it because they don't understand it." It's a bit like saying "Horses can't understand algebra because they don't understand algebra". Meaning, if only they were to bring their brains to bear on the question long enough, they might get what they, by definition, can't get. This is illogical nonsense and one of many ad hominem attacks on Dawkins in the review. Eagleton apparently does not perceive a difference between the words "understand" and "believe" and belief is central to Dawkins' argument. What he objects to is faith, which is defined as belief unsupported by any evidence.

Most of Eagleton's criticisms, when not extolling the virtues of theological literature, most of which is a fascinating and vast exercise in gibberish, not to mention willfully obscure, boil down to what Dawkins calls "Einsteinean religion". This is the sense of reverence and awe at the complexity of the universe and our fortune to be in it (very similar to Eagleton's "God is love" message which is hardly elucidating no matter how many times he repeats it in his review). Such questions as first causes and why there is something instead of nothing may seem unanswerable, and perhaps they are beyond the scope of our brains (just as horses will never understand algebra), but these are questions that should still be subject to rational thinking. The default of "God did it" is not any kind of an answer, its a dangerous dismissal that shows a craven lack of curiosity about the universe.

The question is one of methodology and dogmatism. Rationalist thinking requires evidence and logic, dogmatism (of any kind, political, religious, cultural) requires nothing (but self-righteousness). It's a child's argument that goes something like this: "I'm right, you're wrong." End of story. Believing something passionately, however, is not necessarily dogmatism. Before it gets repeated again, science is not a religion. It is a methodology, a set of tools for locating truth in the natural world as it is not how we'd like it to be. To be passionate about its capabilities is not to commit oneself to fundamentalism because fundamentalism prescribes beliefs that cannot be changed by new facts or evidence. As Dawkins himself repeats endlessly, if ever science were to discover evidence for the existence of a supernatural intelligence, he would be thrilled to change his mind. And that's the beauty of science and the key to its vitality: it is always being challenged and updated to better represent the reality of our universe.

A couple of more specific points.

Eagleton writes "They had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you."

One's faith in another person is a reflection of their record of past experiences with that person. Thus, it is based on past evidence of a person's behavior. This should be so obvious as to not warrant stating.

"[God is] the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves." The height of psuedo-philosophical absurdity. Possibility is God? To quote Steven Weinberg,

"Some people have views of God that are so broad and flexible that it is inevitable that they will find God wherever they look for him. One hears it said that 'God is the ultimate' or 'God is our better nature' or 'God is the universe.' Of course, like any other word, the word 'God' can be given any meaning we like. If you want to say that 'God is energy,' then you can find God in a lump of coal."

"Even moderate religious views, he insists, are to be ferociously contested, since they can always lead to fanaticism."

What Dawkins actually says in his book is that moderate religious views should be ferociously contested because they shelter fanaticism from rational criticism.

"...the Apocalypse is far more likely to be the product of [science and technology] than the work of religion."

So the apocalypse is going to happen because of certain people's interest in constantly pushing the boundaries of human knowledge and knowing the truth of our universe, not because crazed religious zealots value human life so little that they would use technology to destroy the entire world and all of the people in it for the sake of their wonderful, love-centered faith in mysterious supernatural forces?

"He also holds, against a good deal of available evidence, that Islamic terrorism is inspired by religion rather than politics."

If Islamic terrorism is inspired by politics, not religion, pray tell why the people of Central America, or any other devastatingly poor and terrible place to live on earth (which I assume are also touched by geopolitics) are not occasioned the daily sight of young educated men blowing themselves up in market places screaming "God is great!"? And what is this "good deal of available evidence" that Eagleton points to? The fact that media commentators repeatedly trumpet it to be so? That liberals queasy about appearing to be intolerant (of insanity) repeatedly discuss what a glorious, moderate, peaceful religion Islam is? The fact that the area has very real political problems is evidence that religion has nothing to do with it? Perhaps the answer lies in his next quote:

"...his anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred, anxiety, insecurity and sense of humilation that breed fundamentalism."

I know he's just raising his graniloquent lefty flag here and championing "the people", but again, if this were really the case, why aren't Nicaraguans (or Salvadorans, or Liberians, or...) hijacking airliners and flying them into our skyscrapers? Really. Has the global capitalist system not completely wrecked these countries too? Do these people not experience hatred, anxiety, insecurity, and humilation as a result of their poverty? It's the height of liberal ignorance (and I count myself as a leftist, by the way) to defend an insane, narrow, violent, bigoted religious faith as a token of "tolerance". That's not to say global capitalism and politics have not aggravated the situation immensely, but we are talking about a group of people who are still living in the seventh century in some important respects. Respect their insanity at your (and all of humanity's) peril.

Oh and the "Dawkins may be relieved to know that I don't actually know where he lives," bit toward the end? Classy and not at all conceding the argument.

69. Comment #3558 by Anonymous on October 30, 2006 at 8:06 am

to me you all sound like a bunch of blithering twats with nothing better to do than ceaselessly argue with the occasional intellectualy retarded religious bigot who makes the mistake of taking the bait.Would you argue with me about the existence of leprechauns?.probably not because no right mind believes such things.So if God is such a fiction then why argue with fools?Because you all enjoy it,you thrive on ripping to shreds someone considered less intelligent than yourselves.A form of bullying.I think its clear to anyone that this site is hostile to the theistically minded,like a radical feminist meeting can seem hostile to the lone male.Or a nazi gathering that seems damn right dangerous to the jew.
Every group is a lonely group
And the message is stick to your own group

70. Comment #3561 by ThePacifier on October 30, 2006 at 8:22 am

Comment #3558 by Anonymous on October 30, 2006 at 8:06 am

Every group is a lonely group

____________________________________


You're a Goddam genius Anonymous. Seriously….. You hit the nail one the head.



I got one…….


Are "human rights" observable? Are they measurable? Does the theory of human rights result in any falsifiable hypotheses? If not (and I'm thinking not), then, scientifically speaking, human rights exist only as a myth - like Zeus. Just words on paper (as Pres. Bush is supposed to have said about the constitution) - right? Delusional?

Oh, and what about "love"? What about the Monstrosities that this so-called “Love” thing have wreaked on humanity……….since the dawn of age……… this imaginary “Love” has caused nothing but pain and suffering…… “Love” of money, power, fame……..I could go on. Next time someone says “I Love you” remember, there is no empirical evidence that this “love” exists…..Indeed no more evidence of a “pasta monster”. No doubt these “love” believers are delusional.

71. Comment #3562 by Anonymous on October 30, 2006 at 8:30 am

please mr pacifier show me the connection,or is it just in your nature to be diversive?

72. Comment #3566 by Anonymous on October 30, 2006 at 9:10 am

this is coming from dawkins freaks who are urged on this website to print up "imagine no god"flyers, how
vain is that.Merely a way for dawkins to sell more books and a pure disgrace at that.

73. Comment #3568 by Simmons on October 30, 2006 at 9:32 am

"this is coming from dawkins freaks who are urged on this website to print up "imagine no god"flyers, how
vain is that.Merely a way for dawkins to sell more books and a pure disgrace at that."


Oh no! Dawkins wants to sell books? Who would have guessed?!

Disgraceful!

Actually, the flyers, which say "Imagine No Religion", not "Imagine No God" (after all, why bother imagining something which is already true), have little to do with money or fame. Dawkins is genuinely concerned about religion and how it completely retards logical thought (as well as being a cause of violence).

74. Comment #3617 by Jared on October 30, 2006 at 6:52 pm

As this thread is quite old now, I can't say I've read all of the comments. But in searching for one key term, I can see that few people have discussed the question of how Eagleton's Marxism informs his review.

I find it quite humorous that Eagleton seems to think it is OK to pull Dawkins' middle-class, "North Oxford" foundation out of context and use it to invalidate certain perceived inadequacies in Dawkins' arguments.

Humorous, I say, because one could just as easily make a straw man (or is it an ad hominem attack; it seems to straddle the line) out of Eagleton by tarring him with the brush of Marxism and say that HIS bias makes his own points inadequate.

Were that a logical and acceptable form of debate as, by his even MENTIONING Dawkins' class and assumed beliefs Eagleton seems to think it is, Eagleton's arguments would evaporate as well.

Thankfully, it is not. I will attempt to discuss how this method of argument is flawed without weighing the comparative merits of Marxist vs. Non-Marxist perspectives. In terms of my argument, it doesn't matter whether one or the other is "right," which hopefully keeps me from repeating Eagleton's error. You can be the judge of my success or failure in this regard. Furthermore, my analysis holds only for the portions of the review from which I pull my quotes. As to the rest of his points, although I do disagree with them, I am refraining from comment on them here as they are at least free from the particular errors I am arguing against. This, also, should keep me from making Eagleton's mistakes, and you can again be the judge of whether I have succeeded.

In my own reading, I frequently encounter theorists who seem to hold their particular theoretical stance as a sort of "trump card" above and beyond any debates. When someone questions, say, the necessity of viewing a particular issue in the light of “X” Theory, they play the “'X' Theorist card" as a way of saying, "Well, the fact that you argue this exposes you as infected by the anti-“X” culture in which you were raised." I am paraphrasing (and admittedly simplifying) actual arguments I have encountered, as I have none near to hand at the moment from which to quote. Regardless, I think you see what I am getting at. This sort of argument is contemptuous, it dodges the question, and, when boiled down, it says "You cannot debate my views unless you already share them." It is this viewpoint, and not a particular theory (such as Marxism), which is flawed when applied to an argument.

I am not insinuating that this is precisely what Eagleton does, though one does get a sense of a similar sort of sneering contempt when reading the portions of the review dedicated to all but calling Dawkins bourgeois. His string of attacks on the "readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal rationalist” perspective of Dawkins smacks of nothing but contempt and bears the unstated major premise that something in being a "middle-class liberal rationalist" is inherently flawed.

Precisely what is flawed is revealed further down in the review, when Eagleton says that Dawkins' "anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred, anxiety, insecurity and sense of humiliation that breed fundamentalism." Well, of course Dawkins hasn't made this critique! It is a Marxist (or at the very least Anti-capitalist) perspective, and Dawkins is neither! But Eagleton is, and, therefore, any non-Marxist evaluations of global issues are seemingly, to him, invalid by default. I can scarcely think of a more contemptuous way to brush off another person's views

Contempt in and of itself isn't a bad thing. However, when you are critiquing someone else for their lack of "respect" for alternate viewpoints, contempt might just be the wrong tone in which to phrase your arguments.

75. Comment #3621 by John Phillips on October 30, 2006 at 7:12 pm

"Dawkins considers that no religious belief, anytime or anywhere, is worthy of any respect whatsoever. This, one might note, is the opinion of a man deeply averse to dogmatism."

While I accept that people are free to believe whatever they like, however irrational, when has the irrational ever deserved respect. Fear perhaps, or at the very least a healthy wariness, but respect, no.

76. Comment #3626 by John Phillips on October 30, 2006 at 9:46 pm

@147 Comment #2602 by island

"from Lawrence Krauss, who "sees no purpose in nature".


Course, he's also the same guy that said this, so I have to wonder what it takes if creationists don't carry the torch that prevents extremists from destroying empirically supported science:

"But when you look at CMB map, you also see that the structure that is observed, is in fact, in a weird way, correlated with the plane of the earth around the sun. Is this Copernicus coming back to haunt us? That's crazy. We're looking out at the whole universe. There's no way there should be a correlation of structure with our motion of the earth around the sun — the plane of the earth around the sun — the ecliptic. That would say we are truly the center of the universe."

This only goes to show that he neither understands what the CMB map actually represents nor it's significance.

77. Comment #3823 by Anonymous on October 31, 2006 at 9:43 pm

That guy is simply dishonest and somewhat limited in his intellect. The so called review is just a rant to attack Dawkins without any arguments he might have been trying to make?

In simple terms we have a Mouse [eagleton] trying to have a go at a Lion [Dawkins]

I use this excerpt as documentation of my thesis
Timl :):)

78. Comment #6015 by Daiakuma on November 12, 2006 at 7:50 am

"Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. "

Eagleton is wildly wrong.

Even if Dawkins is not as knowledgeable about the details of theology as some professional theologians, he knows more of the subject than at least 99.9% of Christians (including most pastors and evangelists), as can easily be discerned from the way he astutely quotes both early Church writers, such as St. Augustine, and modern theologians at many points in the book.

"What, one wonders, are Dawkins's views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus?"

Not that metaphysics matters a jot -- it is an empty distraction from life -- but epistemology has moved on a long way since those guys.

"Theologians do not believe that he is either inside or outside the universe, as Dawkins thinks they do. His transcendence and invisibility are part of what he is, which is not the case with the Loch Ness monster."

This is childish tosh. Theologians pretend to believe that God's trancendence and invisibility are "part of what he is" as a dodge to get around the fact that there's no evidence for his existence. Their predecessors in the early days of Christianity, Judaism and Monotheism didn't believe that. The theologians are ducking and diving just like any fraudulent medicine-man or cult-leader would, when caught out in a lie.

Eagleton is playing the standard theologian's game of dividing by zero, piling up paradoxes, to make it look as if he's saying something clever and profound, while in fact saying nothing at all, but merely distracting attention from the fact that he's been caught in a lie.

"Satan ('accuser' in Hebrew) is the misrecognition of God as Big Daddy and punitive judge, and Dawkins's God is precisely such a repulsive superego."

Beware, Eagleton, you are slipping carelessly from Christianity into Gnosticism. Christendom expended huge energies killing and exiling gnostics. Now, in defence of Christianity, you echo Gnostic claims about God. Watch out, the way to hell is paved with clever theology!

I can't be bothered with the rest. The article is boring.

79. Comment #7261 by Aussie on November 18, 2006 at 12:53 am

In contrast to many respondents here I found Eagleton's contribution both interesting and entertaining to read. His points should not just be dismissed outright with vacuous one-liners. In fact they might be worth following up had one both the time and energy.

However, the reality is that 90% of believers would not be able to understand the nuances and subtle distinctions that Eagleton is attempting to draw. Dawkins is not particularly concerned with benign academic aesthetes like Eagleton. He is more disturbed by the likes of people flying planes into buildings or US Presidents believing that God told them to invade Iraq.

The patient needs radical surgery and if effete hair splitters like Eagleton get excised with the main tumour then that is unfortunate but necessary.

Dawkins' broadbrush approach is exactly what is needed at this point in history and his "take no prisoners" strategy is preferable to pussyfooting around with academic subtleties.

Eagleton is most welcome to come back when the patient is well into convalescence.

80. Comment #14682 by RSP123 on December 24, 2006 at 8:54 am

 avatarOne or two posters have made the point that Professor Eagleton - who is a heavyweight intellectual and has a pretty good track record of denouncing stupidity and brutality (even of the religious kind) should be taken seriously. I agree.

Eagleton wrote a piece in the Guardian in 2003 in which he savaged fundamentalism (http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,899641,00.html)
and in the New Statesman a year later he wrote: "one occasionally feels that brief, sudden drop in intelligence - as palpable as a sudden fall in room temperature - which occurs when ideology momentarily intervenes to blur the discourse of otherwise enlightened people." (http://www.newstatesman.com/200405170002). This is an important insight, and none of are immune to this shortcoming. Unfortunately, Eagleton's critique of The God Delusion falls into precisely into this pothole. The question isn't how well read one has to be before you can criticize something, it is simply that we need to satisfy Carl Sagan's old motto - that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Why should religious claims (which are extraordinary) be spared this obligation? Happy Christmas.

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81. Comment #14688 by jbannon on December 24, 2006 at 10:42 am

"These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday."

And a good thing too! Imagine what we would have achieved had theology still been the "queen of sciences" today. Not much I would suggest. We would still be going around believing that the earth is flat and the sun revolves around the earth. The key to good modern science is evidence whereas back in the good old days of theology it was the dictat of the theologian that decided which theory was to be held as true. Has the author forgotten that Galileo was charged with heresy and only recanted under threat of torture? Thank you, but I think I'll pass on that one.

He seems to describe a theology which, in spite of his protestations to the contrary, is not particularly mainstream. I wonder if he's read the Westminster Confessions or the various creeds. Much of what he says about atonement for example is heresy in both Reformist and Roman Catholic doctrine and he seems to misread quite a lot of Paul. Not that I'm an expert theologian, but I'm familiar with many of the standard interpretations. E.g., he entirely ignores Calvinism, surely the most repellent of all Christian doctrines, and one which infects not only Northern Ireland but also my own country (Scotland) with the sectarian delusion. Even if, as seems to be the case, he leans towards an Arminian interpretation of the gospel accounts, this still does nothing to ameliorate the central message of all Abrahamic faiths - the claim of exclusive access to the truth and the penalty of death (in whatever form) for violating that truth.

His criticism of Richard's zeitgiest, which he used in respect of morals, seems to me to be reasonable, though from a slightly different perspective. Many of the ideas of secular morality have been around a very long time and predate Christianity, yet we see a continual struggle to have them eliminated by the religionist. "Modern" TAG arguments taking a presuppositionalist stance always argue from the "impossibility of the contrary". Now, in spite of the circularity inherent in much of TAG thinking, it is incredibly popular among the religionists as a response to moral argumentation from a secular perspective. The zeitgiest Richard refers to does not seem to me to be able to overcome these arguments on its own. A conscious, concerted effort will be required to get people to see that secularism is a valid choice when it comes to universalising moral standards. It does not help either when we have modern meta-ethicists arguing for various forms of moral eliminativism that are so counterintuitive to the vast majority of people. Modern moral philosophy has done us no favours in this regard though there are some notable exceptions.

His remarks on rationality I agree with in part. In and of itself, reason will not provide us with truths about the world. It is merely a tool we use to formalise ideas and the relations between them. We are quite unable to deduce truths about the world (whether scientific or otherwise) without making some sort of appeal to experience. Indeed, knowledge itself is impossible without experience. The problem is that the experience of god to which he indirectly refers cannot be used as a justification when making knowledge claims. When making reasonable claims about morality one must base that on what people do independent of their belief in god (or not as the case may be).

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82. Comment #17191 by maton100 on January 11, 2007 at 3:30 pm

 avatarAround the time of Gram Parson's Grievous Angel, a guy named Brandon Carter postulated an ideology entitled "the anthropic principle." This theory basically states that although the earth may not be the center of the universe, it is certainly one of the most convenient places for life to exist (due in part to twenty-four hour grocery stores). To further explicate the fundamental "luckiness" of the survival of carbon-based elements, a theoretical probability equation was implemented to illustrate a methodological framework. Incidentally, various metaphysical theologians soon believed that the origin of all cosmological phenomena and interplanetary mediums must have been fond of Arturo Fuente cigars while resembling Hans Langseth. This overly eager misconception led to the disappearance of Brandon Carter for over a decade and his decidedly triumphant return as the cleverly disguised Carter Beauford of The Dave Mathews Band (after all, he figured, if there was cosmic justice you'd see Doris Stokes collecting unemployment and less astrology books being sold at yard sales). Through the gentle persuasion of colleagues and a year supply of charcoal, Carter was able to resume work on his original theory in attempts to embellish contemporary constructions by leading cosmologists concerning strings, M's, the multi-verse, free-verse and cadence-verse as it applies to the poetry of Terry Eagleton. It wasn't long thereafter that Nobel Laureates became aware of the idea that our universe may not be alone in its universality. In other words, there may exist even greater civilizations and greater structures than the Dallas Cowboy's new stadium. No longer does the anthropic bias continue to display fine-tuning and the idea of Tony Dorsett debating Nick Bostrom in another galaxy now seems quite plausible…
Unfortunately, the topic of infinite regress eventually turned to the mating habits of the Madagascar cockroach. But why the existence of something rather than nothing? Why do roaches eat their own feces and cannibalize their young? Why do roaches, after eating their own feces and cannibalizing their young, go copulate in nests after they spread dysentery? Why do roaches spread their feces to leave pheromones to attract other roaches that eat the feces and then want to copulate vigorously again and again and again? Why will roaches outlive the human species and do so by hanging out in a floor drain long after we have commenced to secure our own extinction in this precarious ecosphere of biological vicissitudes. Surely this implies a grand designer; or at least an ontologically perfect and large roach that eschews space and time. The transcendence and invisibility of this roach is part of what it is. The roach is neither in the universe nor outside the universe. It is simply the causa sui of possibility—the possibility of all roach potential. Needless to say, this valid and luminously articulate argument plagued the department of physics at The University of Texas for several years and led to numerous counterargument films depicting the omnipotent vileness of roaches—even if their entomological nature exuded love and freedom. Many Kafkaesque book clubs began forming and heated discussions arose concerning why it may be better to leave roaches alone than to interfere with their dictatorial destiny in the cosmos. Some theoretical astrophysicists firmly believe that the decision to keep eight instead of nine planets has something to do with our denial of roach life elsewhere. Perhaps Pluto? And why not? Pluto certainly provides an accommodating atmosphere for roaches. Ice has never deterred some serious roach propagation. Besides that, according to future computer predictions, once the earth is gone Pluto's temperature will shift upwards and resemble that of downtown Tampa.

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83. Comment #17202 by Qball on January 11, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Just a small query for Terry Eagelton - if God is the all-seeing,all-knowing entity drummed into me by the Christian Brothers and, by inference, he "knows" everything, even the future, then he surely knew that by sending his only begotten son to earth that Jesus would end up on the cross? On that basis, Terry's line "it was the imperial Roman state, not God, that murdered Jesus," rings a little hollow. If God sent Jesus to die for all of our sins, then ipso facto, wasn't his death all part of God's grand cosmic plan. So why blame the poor old Romans? God did it. Just a small point I know is this great debate but worth a brief mention.

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84. Comment #17253 by maton100 on January 12, 2007 at 10:10 am

 avatarSure Dawkins may not be an academic advisor for political history and ancient theology, but why obscure the real issue? We need a more Gestalt attitude toward 21st century philosophical ethics and logic without antiquated ghosts haunting our sensibilites.

"Once you have given up the ghost, all else follows with dead certainty...even in the midst of chaos." --Henry Miller

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