Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Monday, January 28, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document New atheists or new anti-dogmatists?

by Online Opinion

Thanks to Benjamin O'Donnell for the link.

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=6925

New atheists or new anti-dogmatists?

By Benjamin O'Donnell

A lot has been written about a group of recent best-selling authors that, back in November 2006, Wired Magazine dubbed "the new atheists". Principally, they are the evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion), the neuroscientist Sam Harris (The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation), the philosopher Daniel Dennett (Breaking the Spell) and the journalist Christopher Hitchens (God Is Not Great and The Portable Atheist).

These authors have not just sold a lot of books (over 1.5 million for the English language edition of The God Delusion alone). Dawkins runs a website with a lot of traffic and has started a charitable foundation in the US and the UK. Harris has smaller, but similar projects. Hitchens takes on all comers in his inimitably confrontational style. Google any of their names or the phrases "new atheist" or "new atheism" and you'll see a torrent of arguments, for and against. The "new atheists" are clearly trying to start and sustain an intellectual movement.

What is strange is that, when one actually reads them, one gets the feeling that the real target of the "new atheists" isn't religion at all.

ndeed, they all explicitly say they have little or no problem with deism, or Spinozian pantheism or what Dawkins calls "Einstein-ian religion". Harris, Dennett and Hitchens (and possibly Dawkins) have indicated that they wouldn't necessarily want to see the synagogues, churches and mosques emptied, though they would want to see them abandon their "metaphysical bullshit" (see this video towards the end).

It seems that the new atheists' real problem is with dogma, and specifically with the dogma of religious faith - with the belief that it is acceptable, even admirable, to believe propositions without logically sound reasons based on good evidence. They aren't really the "new atheists" at all, but the "new anti-dogmatists".

So, what's the problem with dogma?

The forms that dogmatically believed propositions can take are potentially infinite. One might dogmatically believe in the historical inevitability of a communist utopia, under which the State will wither away, after a brief but necessary period of a dictatorship of the proletariat.

Or one might dogmatically believe in the existence of something called the Aryan race, in its inherent superiority to all other races, and in the inherent inferiority and perfidy of the Jewish race.

Or one might dogmatically believe that the creator of the universe called on one's religion to convert the world, or take it by force through holy war; that death in the defence of (or attempt to reconquer) lands so acquired is the greatest of all actions; and that such martyrs will go to paradise after they die to be attended by 72 virgin brides and joined in due course be all their family and loved-ones.

Or one might dogmatically believe that the creator of the universe condemns condom use as a sin.

What all four of these beliefs have in common is that there is very little or no evidence for them and there is much evidence against them. Yet all four beliefs have at times been passionately believed and acted upon by otherwise rational, sane and civilised people - often resulting in those people performing some of the most irrational, insane and barbaric acts imaginable.

The physicist Steven Weinberg has said that, left alone, "you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." If you change the word "religion" to "dogma" or "faith" you have my view - and the view I suspect people like Weinberg, Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris are really getting at.

Thankfully, Fascist, Nazi and Communist dogmas have been so discredited that almost no one believes them any more. This is a development to be celebrated. But as the events of New York and Washington DC and Bali and Madrid and London demonstrate; and as demonstrated by the genocidally stupid anti-contraceptive policies of the Catholic church in Africa; and the homicidally stupid stem-cell policies of Christian churches in the US, religious dogmas are alive and kicking and at work in the world today.

Reason and evidence and empiricism and science and liberal democracy - in short, the forces of the Enlightenment - have discredited Communist and Fascist dogmas. Now, say Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, it is time for them to do the same to the dogmas of religious faith.
Isn't atheism just as dogmatic and dangerous?

At this point, a committed theist might point to the history of 20th century Communism and say that there is something about atheism that leads to barbarism, immorality and dictatorship. He or she might even say that there is something about atheism that leads to the very dogmatism that I and the "new anti-dogmatists" decry. But any theist who said that would have to explain the inconvenient fact that some of the most civilised, liberal and prosperous nations in the world are "atheistic", in the sense that a majority of their populations do not believe in God.

Take Sweden, for example. When polled, more than 80 per cent of Swedes say they don't believe in God and more than 40 per cent explicitly identify themselves as atheists. Yet Sweden has some of the lowest homicide, poverty, teenaged pregnancy and STD rates in the world. It is a functioning liberal democracy with high levels of wealth, very little social unrest and a near 100 per cent literacy rate.

And while Sweden is the extreme, the figures show that liberal democracies with low levels of theistic belief tend to be have high levels of societal health, and vice versa. Even in the heavily religious United States of America, the less religious a State is, the lower its rates of things like homicide, STD infection and teenage pregnancy tend to be. (See P Zuckerman, "Atheism: Contemporary Numbers and Patterns" in M Martin (ed), Cambridge Companion to Atheism (Cambridge University Press, UK, 2006), summarised here and here)

Clearly, a widespread disbelief in God is not incompatible with a healthy, happy, prosperous and civilised society. (Note I do not claim that atheism has caused these wonderful societies to be so wonderful. I cite these facts merely to show that atheism is compatible with social harmony.)

So, what is the difference between the slaughterhouses built by the Godless Communists of Russia and China and the civilised liberal polities built by the Godless progressives of Western Europe and elsewhere? The obvious answer is that Western European countries are liberal democracies committed to science and empiricism and reason, and freedom of speech and debate; whereas Soviet Russia and Red China clearly were not. It was not its atheism per se, but the illiberalism, the undemocratic nature, the dogmatism of Communism that made it the architect of so much 20th century horror.

The two Enlightenments

Another common criticism of atheists (particularly atheist scientists like Dawkins) is that they are robotic philistines, determined to destroy art, culture and community and reduce the world to a place of steel and chromium, spreadsheets and catalogues. But the really interesting thing about these new anti-dogmatists is their spirituality. Dawkins has written with such wonder and poetry about the natural world in books like Unweaving the Rainbow that he's been referred to as a "deeply religious non-believer" (and he is, after all, the man who once wrote an article entitled "Atheists for Jesus").

Hitchens waxes lyrical about the beauties of religious music and art, but insists we separate the transcendent from the supernatural. Dennett's Breaking the Spell devotes a great many pages to examining and praising the community-building and altruism-sustaining qualities of religious institutions.

Most radical of all, Sam Harris is a former seeker, a man who spent ten years in meditation retreats and with yogis and monks (including a stint as a bodyguard for the Dalai Lama). In the last chapter of The End of Faith, Harris argues that there really is something worthwhile and wonderful about the mystical experiences that lie at the root of most of our religions. These experiences are real and important and increasingly measurable by neuroscientists - but the truth about them is buried beneath mountains of "metaphysical bullshit". Harris extols the virtues of the contemplative disciplines at the same time as he is withering in his criticism of the ancient theology and modern "New Age" waffle that so often goes with them. What we need, argues Harris, is to take a ruthlessly logical and scientific approach to these ancient disciplines, to separate the wheat from the chaff (see also Harris' confronting article, "Killing the Buddha" (PDF 534KB)).

The new anti-dogmatists are children of the European Enlightenment. But Sam Harris, at least, is no stranger to that other meaning of the word enlightenment - the meaning that stands at the root of many of our religions. Reconciling these "two enlightenments" is a project where rationalists like Dawkins might join in common cause with ultra-liberal theologians like Bishop John Shelby Spong. But such a project is not a call for misty-eyed live-and-let-live compromise. Far from it. To get at the common core of truth that lies within both the religious and rationalistic meanings of the word "enlightenment" we need to be ruthless with obscurantism - whether it comes from orthodox theology, post-modern nonsense, new age silliness or naïve mechanistic psychology.

The baby and the bathwater

And here I return to my terminological criticism. This "spiritual" side to the new anti-dogmatism is not helped by the conflation of the terms "religion" and "faith". Dennett, as one would expect from a professional philosopher, has been by far the least sloppy in his use of the terms; but he is also the most subtle and least read of four.

Harris can slide between the terms "faith" and "religion", but his sophisticated treatment of spirituality makes it clear that his real target is the dogma of faith.

Dawkins and Hitchens are the two who most often conflate religion and faith in their use of language - and they are also the two most well known. In my view, this is unfortunate. As Dennett points out at length in Breaking the Spell, religions are social institutions that are very effective at providing community, solidarity and mutual support. But they needn't be based around dogma. By being sloppy in their language, I fear the new anti-dogmatists are driving away potential allies.

Comments 1 - 50 of 132 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #117034 by FreeThink25 on January 28, 2008 at 6:12 am

Well.....yeah! Is someone really just realizing that this is what we've been talking about?

I've thought about that last paragraph before. I cannot think of a religion that is not based on dogma or faith. Sure, people can stretch the meaning of the word, and lump in the things like "the religion of mathematics", or the "religion of physics"...but that does not convince me that "religion" is a valid term.

Anyone else?

Other Comments by FreeThink25

2. Comment #117039 by writerdd on January 28, 2008 at 6:23 am

What a fantastic article!

Other Comments by writerdd

3. Comment #117040 by c4chaos on January 28, 2008 at 6:25 am

 avatarbingo! this is one of the best reviews of the New Atheists i've read. i'm going to blog this forward ;)

~C

Other Comments by c4chaos

4. Comment #117041 by Tycho the Dog on January 28, 2008 at 6:25 am

 avatarI can see where he's coming from, but I'm not sure what the point of his conclusions are. Yes, organised religions fulfil important social functions for their adherents, but none that could not be provided by secular organisations (certainly in the UK). The one, and huge, difference is that with religion the social functions are always framed by belief in the supernatural.

Other Comments by Tycho the Dog

5. Comment #117042 by JemyM on January 28, 2008 at 6:26 am

 avatarGreat article, and I expanded my criticism against all dogma awhile ago. Bertrand Russel's article (also in the Portable Atheist) is a great read on this subject: http://www.solstice.us/russell/intellectual_rubbish.html

Other Comments by JemyM

6. Comment #117046 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 6:44 am

"Belief" is something we hold to be the truth or the way things are, and there are essentially two ways we arrive at a particular belief. Plan A; by personal, first hand experience and investigation (which can still be flawed) or Plan B; through another person (authority). We can certainly obtain good beliefs through authority, but there's no guaranty of it. Obviously we have to depend on authorities for many things (doctors, mechanics, historians, etc.), but these authorities arrived at their conclusions through Plan A, so we can have a higher level "faith" or trust in those authorities. Religion is basically putting faith or trust in authorities who used plan B and have depended on plan B for generations and the final authority turns out to be someone who claims to have received his authority through some supernatural revelation - an entire system of belief based on a vision, if you will. Just think of all the destruction that has been a direct result of millions of people submitting their brains (beliefs) to the whims and hunches of madmen.

Other Comments by bamafreethinker

7. Comment #117047 by ChrisMcL on January 28, 2008 at 6:45 am

 avatarThis is the article that I wish that I had written.

Other Comments by ChrisMcL

8. Comment #117048 by Szymanowski on January 28, 2008 at 6:48 am

 avatar
Harris can slide between the terms "faith" and "religion", but his sophisticated treatment of spirituality makes it clear that his real target is the dogma of faith.

Dawkins and Hitchens are the two who most often conflate religion and faith in their use of language


Well, I thought it was absolutely 100% clear that their real target was the dogma of faith, as they have stated repeatedly, but perhaps some people can be slow on the uptake...!

Other Comments by Szymanowski

9. Comment #117050 by Chris Bell on January 28, 2008 at 6:48 am

If Harris is still looking for a different label, "anti-dogmatist" sounds appropriate to me.

adogmatist?

Too bad "objectivist" is already taken by the Ayn Rand fans - although she detested religion herself.

Other Comments by Chris Bell

10. Comment #117051 by movingshadow on January 28, 2008 at 6:51 am

 avatarto slightly paraphrase or possibly quote dawkter dawkins in another context: or? why not and?

Other Comments by movingshadow

11. Comment #117053 by Styrer- on January 28, 2008 at 6:58 am

Talk about damning with faint praise.

There is nothing much to disagree with in the article, apart from the criticism of Dawkins and Hitchens at the end - much of the good sense of the article does not come from O'Donnell but from his readings of Dawkins and Hitchens themselves, after all.

Bit of a weasly one, this O'Donnell. Far more than the 'community social club' he seeks to reduce them to, religions are the pernicious incubators of faith and dogma, calling them to action, and 'conflating' the two in no way amounts to 'sloppy language'.

Refusing to conflate them, by contrast, has certainly led this cretin to 'sloppy' thinking in the end.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

12. Comment #117055 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 6:59 am

Anti-dogmatism has always occured to me to be a more effective label for this 'new wave' of reason. Not least because it pre-empts, negates and to some degree reverses the tedious 'hasn't atheism been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history' argument.

Other Comments by issue99

13. Comment #117058 by terradea on January 28, 2008 at 6:59 am

Brilliant and elegantly presented. Thank you!

In response to FreeThink25: Well, my religion is built on my lengthy experiences with others; that sex is the door to enlightenment and a feeling of oneness with the universe. There is no dogma involved in my religion, nor is there any real faith, but a sense of awakening and realization that, the more I act in accordance with my physical and mental desires, the more I seem to be in touch with myself, aware of the human experience and open to new ideas. Strangely, I've also noticed that, through sex, I've discovered a way of looking at life that is absolutely counter to any religion I've practiced in my past.

Does this count?

Other Comments by terradea

14. Comment #117059 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 7:02 am

What about anti-irrationalists?

I am dogmatically opposed to dogmatism!!!

Other Comments by bamafreethinker

15. Comment #117060 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 7:05 am

How about rationalists in that case. A positive term for a change.

Other Comments by issue99

16. Comment #117061 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 7:13 am

Dillusionless...

Bull-shitless...

Catmatist (opposite of dogmatist)

Seriously though, FREETHINKER is one of my all-time favs. It has no negatives built in and dosne't seem to offend. Of course it stops a little short of atheism, but most people make the connection.

"In praise of the most high Bull-shitlessness!!!"

Other Comments by bamafreethinker

17. Comment #117065 by Warikz on January 28, 2008 at 7:30 am

Brilliant article. In fact the reasons gave in the article are why i think i will stop calling myself a "New Atheist" because that term has lead to confusion before, and start calling myself an "Anti-dogmatist" as i notice that when i say i am an atheist i often find it hard to convince people i see the good in the mysticism of Religion, that enlightenment, how it can bring people together in great ways but that i dont see the good in dogma as said here. Probably what the authors last section detailed is my main criticism of Dawkins and Hitchens aswell, sloppy language can lead to terrible misunderstandings, as all who have debated with theists before can no doubt can agree with.

Other Comments by Warikz

18. Comment #117066 by notsobad on January 28, 2008 at 7:35 am

 avatar
In response to FreeThink25: Well, my religion is built on my lengthy experiences with others; that sex is the door to enlightenment and a feeling of oneness with the universe. There is no dogma involved in my religion, nor is there any real faith, but a sense of awakening and realization that, the more I act in accordance with my physical and mental desires, the more I seem to be in touch with myself, aware of the human experience and open to new ideas. Strangely, I've also noticed that, through sex, I've discovered a way of looking at life that is absolutely counter to any religion I've practiced in my past.

Does this count?

If you use 'religion' as a synonym with 'lifestyle' then it does count.
But why would you call it religion?

Other Comments by notsobad

19. Comment #117067 by Quetzalcoatl on January 28, 2008 at 7:37 am

 avatarThis is a good article, especially as it spells out what "the Four Horsemen" actually think, rather than what some would have us believe they think.

http://musingsofastrangemind.blogspot.com

Because I'm a shameless self-publicist.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

20. Comment #117068 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 7:38 am

If you 'religion' as a synonym with 'lifestyle' then it does count.
But why would you call it religion?


For the tax breaks?

Other Comments by issue99

21. Comment #117069 by HeyBishop on January 28, 2008 at 7:47 am

 avatarThis would be my first time commenting here on richarddawkins.net, for which I have been a long time lurker.

I have gotten into a lot of trouble in the past for my vocal dislike for "religion". I guess you could say I used to quietly let things pass by, but I've started openly debating these issues in recent years. I'm new to debating, and I'm not terribly good at yet. My main fault I think is my vocabulary.

I know how I feel about the world, and I've been very ridged about my feelings concerning religion. But recently I've been contemplating if that is really what upsets me, am I being unfair towards religion? I have felt as though I'm targeting my anger in the wrong direction.
It was just a week or so ago that I realized in fact perhaps the more appropriate word is "dogma", or "dogmatism". Today, along comes this article. This article expresses my feelings almost to the letter. It says just what I've been trying to say and far more effectively and eloquently.

You see, as I stated before, my biggest problem thwarting my personal crusade against dogmatism is semantics. Because I've been bitching about religion all this time.

Some of my friends, mostly fellow atheists, often point out my misuse of the word religion "when what you really mean is faith", or vice versa. When they point out my miswording, their correction doesn't quite sit right either. Usually I just let it pass.

The words "religion" and "dogma" are synonymous in day-to-day language despite their different meaning. It isn't chance that these words get tossed around and confused, as O'Donnell points out most dogmas have been nearly irradiated from our lives here in the 21st century (Fascisim, Nazism, etc.). For the most part, religion's all that's left. So that's where I've been directing my anger and outrage, just as Dawkins and company have been too.
I wonder why we've gravitated to the using the word "religion" when we mean "dogma"? Is it simply because we learnt that word first in life? The media's use of the word? Or because it is the opposite of atheist, which we've all been dubbed, or dub ourselves?
Perhaps this question doesn't matter in the long run. Just an interesting thought.

More importantly, I'm going to change my Facebook profile from "atheist" to "antidogmist".

Other Comments by HeyBishop

22. Comment #117070 by ianmkz on January 28, 2008 at 7:47 am

 avatarIs Occam's Razor a scientific dogma?

Other Comments by ianmkz

23. Comment #117071 by jimbob on January 28, 2008 at 7:52 am

The physicist Steven Weinberg has said that, left alone, "you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." If you change the word "religion" to "dogma" or "faith" you have my view - and the view I suspect people like Weinberg, Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris are really getting at.


Amen -- except I'd humbly suggest "dogmatic ideology" in place of "religion" in Weinberg's adage.

If I recollect accurately, I suggested something like this when I first joined this list. My view was (and is) that the ideologies of the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot are quasi-religious dogmas -- and the penalties for heresy and apostasy as the same as within any oppressive religion.

The other thing that had me chuckling was the recollection of my early days in the USA. When asked about my religion, I would reply that I was a devout anti-dogmatist. Invariably, I immediately got the impression that the askers thought this was an actual religion!

Other Comments by jimbob

24. Comment #117072 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 7:53 am

 avatar22. Comment #117070 by ianmkz -
Is Occam's Razor a scientific dogma?
Well, it's a blunt tool, but quite useful nonetheless.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

25. Comment #117073 by -TheCodeCrack- on January 28, 2008 at 7:59 am

 avatar"Dennett, as one would expect from a professional philosopher, has been by far the least sloppy in his use of the terms; but he is also the most subtle and least read of four."

Ok, subtle = less read.

"Dawkins and Hitchens are the two who most often conflate religion and faith in their use of language - and they are also the two most well known."

Ok, less subtle = more often read.

But, oh no, he didn't!

"By being sloppy in their language, I fear the new anti-dogmatists are driving away potential allies."

Hate to say it mate, but you can't get allies if you don't deliver them the message!



Also, I do not want to make common usage of the term anti-dogmatists. The reason is that the term Atheist is better known and will stick anyway, and secondly I think it will make for cheap tacky theist comebacks.
I just know that they'll draw the parallel between the 'religion of peace' (hint Islam) and the anti-dogmatists (hint Atheists).

Of course, this is a complete load of crap to say such about Atheists, but it would be just too easy to use such a term against Atheists, especially as theists seem to get confused between passion and dogmatism, solid evidence and no evidence.

Just another note - If religious people said that they too were anti-dogmatists, and we said that that is what we are also, Atheists would have effectively been dissolved?

Stick with Atheist for someone who does not believe in a supernatural being.
New Atheism, yep, fine as well.

Regards
WHS

Other Comments by -TheCodeCrack-

26. Comment #117074 by robotaholic on January 28, 2008 at 8:01 am

 avatarI didn't know Harris did a stint as a bodygaurd for the Dalai Lama! How interesting.

Other Comments by robotaholic

27. Comment #117075 by c4chaos on January 28, 2008 at 8:05 am

 avatarP.S. i prefer post-dogmatists :)
http://coolmel.typepad.com/iblog/2008/01/new-atheists-ne.html

Other Comments by c4chaos

28. Comment #117076 by Artful_Dodger on January 28, 2008 at 8:06 am

"we need to be ruthless with obscurantism - whether it comes from orthodox theology, post-modern nonsense, new age silliness or naïve mechanistic psychology."

Just a couple of questions here:

What does "ruthless" mean in practical terms? What constitutes "obscurantism"?


If this means that we have to counter arguments from superstition with better arguments, then I can go along with this. The problem is that this article, like the posts submitted by the vast majority of contributors to this forum, classes as obscurantism any and all belief in a transcendent Creator, and fails to make the necessary distinction between the kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria) and the "faith" that "inspired" the 9/11 attacks.

I would like to know how the writer would suggest that the "ruthless" suppression of the "obscurantism" that faith is should be effected. This could sound ominous unless carefully qualified. If it is just a question of vigorous debate in the pblic square, with everyone having access to the public square to have their views challenged, then no problem. Many Christian thinkers have shown that they are more than capable of compellingly defending the Christian faith in this kind of scenario. But if it means that access to the public square should denied to people who believe in God, or curtailed in any way, then this sounds like totaletarianism. There are many well-documented cases of people in the Soviet block, up until the late 80s, who were excluded from public education because they were not prepared to declare that they were atheists.

And what about the "dogma" that religion is a virus (evidence please?) and that "religion is the root of all evil"? What about the dogma that Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with his atheism (you try telling that to people in the Soviet Union who were threatened with the Gulag or who were sent there on account of their theism!)?

On the scientific level, what about the dogma (still unproven belief based on a priori commitment to - in this case - a materialist worldview) that life can arise spontaneously out of inanimate matter?

If it's "dogma" the four horsemen or going to tilt at, let them tilt at ALL dogma.


Other Comments by Artful_Dodger

29. Comment #117077 by HourglassMemory on January 28, 2008 at 8:10 am

Adogmatist sounds like a good name...

Other Comments by HourglassMemory

30. Comment #117078 by _J_ on January 28, 2008 at 8:10 am

 avatarianmkz
Is Occam's Razor a scientific dogma?

Only in the same way that car wheel designers have a 'dogmatic' predilection for circles. There are other ways of doing the job, but this is the one that has proven to work best.

In other words: no!

Other Comments by _J_

31. Comment #117081 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:15 am

What constitutes "obscurantism"?
Belief that homosexuality is wrong because it is written in a very old book
Belief that women must cover their flesh because it is written in a very old book
Belief that people can rise from the dead because it is written in a very old book
Belief in creationism because it is written in a very old book
Belief that idolatry is wrong because it is written in a very old book
Belief in heaven and hell because it is written in a very old book
Belief in Yahweh, Allah, Zeus and Wotan because it is written in a very old book
Belief in the virgin birth because it is written in a very old book

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

32. Comment #117082 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:19 am

kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria)
Bach's skill did not arise from christianity, else there would be millions of brilliant composers walking the earth today. Has he been non-religious, I suspect he would have found other themes on which to base his music.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

33. Comment #117083 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:21 am

 avatarObscurantism:


1. opposition to the increase and spread of knowledge.
2. deliberate obscurity or evasion of clarity.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

34. Comment #117085 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:28 am

 avatarPeacebeuponme,


I would also add...

Belief that Elvis is dead.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

35. Comment #117086 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 8:30 am

 avatar28. Comment #117076 by Artful_Dodger -
this article, like the posts submitted by the vast majority of contributors to this forum, classes as obscurantism any and all belief in a transcendent Creator
That is because it is obscurantism.
...fails to make the necessary distinction between the kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria) and the "faith" that "inspired" the 9/11 attacks.
At base, there is no difference. Both are delusions.
Many Christian thinkers have shown that they are more than capable of compellingly defending the Christian faith...
No they're not. Spouting irrational assertions in the face of plain evidence does not class as a 'compelling' defense of the indefensible.
There are many well-documented cases of people in the Soviet block, up until the late 80s, who were excluded from public education because they were not prepared to declare that they were atheists.
And there's been a damn sight more who have ben killed or tortured because they weren't Catholic/Protestant/Sunni/Shia etc.

Sorry if you find me somewhat blunt, but I'm not one to be neutral between the fire-engine and the fire.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

36. Comment #117087 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 8:31 am

 avatarAnd I'm dogmatically opposed to religion in the same way that I'm dogmatically opposed to the notion that 2+2 = 5

Other Comments by irate_atheist

37. Comment #117088 by Gymnopedie on January 28, 2008 at 8:32 am

Well, at least someone understands!

Once you understand the criticism is against dogma and religion is a branch of the dogma tree, then you can clearly see what is wrong with the whole "Stalin was..." argument.

Great article!

Other Comments by Gymnopedie

38. Comment #117089 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:35 am

 avatarirate atheist,


In regards to Christians "compellingly defending their faith" I would note something. Discussion around religion (here and in my personal life) usually proceeds as such...

Begins with mutually exclusive assertions
Turns to evolution
Evolution is a theory
Can't disprove God
Thermodynamics
Pascal's Wager
I am busy and need to get back to work.

Just look at how many discussions with theists ends with them moving on to "important tasks". My guess is that it is rationalised as "These atheists are closed to the 'truth' anyway, why bother".

Other Comments by al-rawandi

39. Comment #117090 by annabanana on January 28, 2008 at 8:36 am

 avatar
I wonder why we've gravitated to the using the word "religion" when we mean "dogma"? Is it simply because we learnt that word first in life? The media's use of the word? Or because it is the opposite of atheist, which we've all been dubbed, or dub ourselves?
Perhaps this question doesn't matter in the long run. Just an interesting thought.

This is a good question. Perhaps it is because we blame religion for promoting dogma or as the basis for the dogma, but perhaps it is the other way around. I think I'll have to contemplate this one a little longer.

Other Comments by annabanana

40. Comment #117092 by Ultraviolet G on January 28, 2008 at 8:48 am

Great article to sum-up the present state of play.

Not sure that "anti-dogmatist" is snappy enough by itself, but it should always be brought up very early on, as the central point of this whole debate.

>>HeyBishop

..do the thing with the knife!

;)

Other Comments by Ultraviolet G

41. Comment #117093 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:50 am

Just look at how many discussions with theists ends with them moving on to "important tasks". My guess is that it is rationalised as "These atheists are closed to the 'truth' anyway, why bother".
Yes, the inclination to leave and get back to more important things, can only be seen as either smug or desparate. It would be interesting if it was rationalised in your way. Surely, as good Christians, they want to spread the word and help us out? Yet we seem to be the ones who genuinely want to point them in the right diretion.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

42. Comment #117095 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:58 am

 avatarPeacebeuponme,


I have gotten it out of Muslims before. I challenged them and I got a debate for a while until I forcefully challenged the cognitive dissonance, and the suspension of rationalism.

It ended, "Well you are closed to the truth." That was in turn divided into several instances, in one where "God made" me closed, and other where I "chose to ignore" god's word. I excoriated the second because Islam is all about pre-determinism.

I think with Christians they are protecting their own faith be pounding gravel every time things heat up.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

43. Comment #117100 by Steve Zara on January 28, 2008 at 9:04 am

 avatar
The problem is that this article, like the posts submitted by the vast majority of contributors to this forum, classes as obscurantism any and all belief in a transcendent Creator, and fails to make the necessary distinction between the kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria) and the "faith" that "inspired" the 9/11 attacks.


In the context of obscurantism, there is no difference. These different "faiths" simply show the different paths that can be taken, which is why obscurantism is dangerous - as you can justify any of these faiths on their own terms. Nasty Faith actually has more justification from scripture than Fluffy Faith.

And what about the "dogma" that religion is a virus (evidence please?) and that "religion is the root of all evil"? What about the dogma that Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with his atheism (you try telling that to people in the Soviet Union who were threatened with the Gulag or who were sent there on account of their theism!)?

On the scientific level, what about the dogma (still unproven belief based on a priori commitment to - in this case - a materialist worldview) that life can arise spontaneously out of inanimate matter?


These are "hypotheses". They are subject to experimental investigation. You don't get to label them dogma just on a whim.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

44. Comment #117101 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 9:09 am

Fluffy Faith.
Sounds like a '70s porn star.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

45. Comment #117102 by locri on January 28, 2008 at 9:15 am

I found this article very interesting and definitely agree that a lot of what is behind "New Atheism" is basically just anti-dogmatism. It's obvious that many of the prominent authors of "New Atheism" are anti-dogmatic when topics like Stalin and Pot Pol (sp?) are brought up.

The big question I have after reading this is, what's left of religion when you get rid of dogma? Seriously... the foundations of religion ARE dogma. If you take it away you just have a social group of people and you might as well be talking about the local chapter of 4H or something.

Other Comments by locri

46. Comment #117103 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 9:17 am

 avatar44. Comment #117101 by Peacebeuponme -

I never laid a finger on her.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

47. Comment #117105 by Rationalist1 on January 28, 2008 at 9:18 am

The Dogma Delusion would have alliterated, plus it would have stopped the immediate rejoinder by critics that Dawkins thinks all religious people are delusional. No, all people who believe unsubstantiated dogma are delusional. In that way Hitler, Stalin and people with religious faiths would be tarred with the same label. Its reasonable to ask for evidence below asserting to a belief. Otherwise that is delusional.

Other Comments by Rationalist1

48. Comment #117109 by tieInterceptor on January 28, 2008 at 9:24 am

 avatarexcelent article, it hits the nail in the head.

Dogmatic opinions are a fowl monster, and religions are the nasty parasites that grown around popular dogmatic ideas. Like a symbiotic life form that depends on the delicious scraps that fall of the dogmatic idea jaws, and they will do everything on their power to keep that beautiful mountain of nonsense alive and healthy, their very own lives depend on it.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

49. Comment #117111 by _J_ on January 28, 2008 at 9:25 am

 avatar
And what about the "dogma" that religion is a virus (evidence please?) and that "religion is the root of all evil"? What about the dogma that Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with his atheism (you try telling that to people in the Soviet Union who were threatened with the Gulag or who were sent there on account of their theism!)?

On the scientific level, what about the dogma (still unproven belief based on a priori commitment to - in this case - a materialist worldview) that life can arise spontaneously out of inanimate matter?

If it's "dogma" the four horsemen or going to tilt at, let them tilt at ALL dogma.

Did you deliberately set out to half-understand the article or what? Behold:

Reason and evidence and empiricism and science and liberal democracy - in short, the forces of the Enlightenment - have discredited Communist and Fascist dogmas. Now, say Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, it is time for them to do the same to the dogmas of religious faith.

When your surgeon promises to fix your heart condition, do you rebuke her for not also sorting out your eczema? Seriously, this kind of argument is just irritating.

It isn't 'dogma' that religion is a virus. It's an analogy.

It isn't 'dogma' that religion is the root of all evil. It's unhelpful hyperbole that even Dawkins has explicitly disavowed (Channel 4 TV producers getting carried away).

In Stalinist Russia, dogmatic enforcement of atheism was a tool used to propagate the dogmatic cult of personality of his quasi-theistic dictatorship. This doesn't make atheism per se a dogma - as the article clearly explains.

Abiogenesis is not a dogma. It is an area of research. God-initiated creation would also be an area of research, if anyone could present something to actually be researched. I think I've said this before: there's not a lot of useful work that can be done in an empty lab.

Any of the things you mention can be dogmatically asserted, certainly (like atheism was in Stalinist Russia). But none of them ought to be, or commonly are.

It's related to the point about Occam's Razor, earlier, and to your question about obscurantism. An assertion derived from observation and reason, and that is given as much weight as that observation and reason lend to it, is not dogma. An assertion that is given weight significantly above what observation and reason can support is obscurantism (because it aims to spuriously shift our appraisal of what is true and what is false) and dogmatism (because it prescribes our beliefs without a solid basis for doing so).

Come now, Artful_Dodger. Don't undermine your position by choosing silly fights.

Other Comments by _J_

50. Comment #117114 by notsobad on January 28, 2008 at 9:29 am

 avatarReligion is dogma's most successful child. That's why.

Other Comments by notsobad
Reload Comments | Back to Top

More Comments: 1 2 3 | Next | Last

Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: