










New atheists or new anti-dogmatists?2. Comment #117039 by writerdd on January 28, 2008 at 6:23 am
What a fantastic article!3. Comment #117040 by c4chaos on January 28, 2008 at 6:25 am
4. Comment #117041 by Tycho the Dog on January 28, 2008 at 6:25 am
5. Comment #117042 by JemyM on January 28, 2008 at 6:26 am
6. Comment #117046 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 6:44 am
"Belief" is something we hold to be the truth or the way things are, and there are essentially two ways we arrive at a particular belief. Plan A; by personal, first hand experience and investigation (which can still be flawed) or Plan B; through another person (authority). We can certainly obtain good beliefs through authority, but there's no guaranty of it. Obviously we have to depend on authorities for many things (doctors, mechanics, historians, etc.), but these authorities arrived at their conclusions through Plan A, so we can have a higher level "faith" or trust in those authorities. Religion is basically putting faith or trust in authorities who used plan B and have depended on plan B for generations and the final authority turns out to be someone who claims to have received his authority through some supernatural revelation - an entire system of belief based on a vision, if you will. Just think of all the destruction that has been a direct result of millions of people submitting their brains (beliefs) to the whims and hunches of madmen.7. Comment #117047 by ChrisMcL on January 28, 2008 at 6:45 am
8. Comment #117048 by Szymanowski on January 28, 2008 at 6:48 am
Harris can slide between the terms "faith" and "religion", but his sophisticated treatment of spirituality makes it clear that his real target is the dogma of faith.
Dawkins and Hitchens are the two who most often conflate religion and faith in their use of language
9. Comment #117050 by Chris Bell on January 28, 2008 at 6:48 am
If Harris is still looking for a different label, "anti-dogmatist" sounds appropriate to me.10. Comment #117051 by movingshadow on January 28, 2008 at 6:51 am
11. Comment #117053 by Styrer- on January 28, 2008 at 6:58 am
Talk about damning with faint praise.12. Comment #117055 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 6:59 am
Anti-dogmatism has always occured to me to be a more effective label for this 'new wave' of reason. Not least because it pre-empts, negates and to some degree reverses the tedious 'hasn't atheism been responsible for some of the worst atrocities in history' argument.13. Comment #117058 by terradea on January 28, 2008 at 6:59 am
Brilliant and elegantly presented. Thank you!14. Comment #117059 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 7:02 am
What about anti-irrationalists?15. Comment #117060 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 7:05 am
How about rationalists in that case. A positive term for a change.16. Comment #117061 by bamafreethinker on January 28, 2008 at 7:13 am
Dillusionless...17. Comment #117065 by Warikz on January 28, 2008 at 7:30 am
Brilliant article. In fact the reasons gave in the article are why i think i will stop calling myself a "New Atheist" because that term has lead to confusion before, and start calling myself an "Anti-dogmatist" as i notice that when i say i am an atheist i often find it hard to convince people i see the good in the mysticism of Religion, that enlightenment, how it can bring people together in great ways but that i dont see the good in dogma as said here. Probably what the authors last section detailed is my main criticism of Dawkins and Hitchens aswell, sloppy language can lead to terrible misunderstandings, as all who have debated with theists before can no doubt can agree with.18. Comment #117066 by notsobad on January 28, 2008 at 7:35 am
In response to FreeThink25: Well, my religion is built on my lengthy experiences with others; that sex is the door to enlightenment and a feeling of oneness with the universe. There is no dogma involved in my religion, nor is there any real faith, but a sense of awakening and realization that, the more I act in accordance with my physical and mental desires, the more I seem to be in touch with myself, aware of the human experience and open to new ideas. Strangely, I've also noticed that, through sex, I've discovered a way of looking at life that is absolutely counter to any religion I've practiced in my past.
Does this count?
19. Comment #117067 by Quetzalcoatl on January 28, 2008 at 7:37 am
20. Comment #117068 by issue99 on January 28, 2008 at 7:38 am
If you 'religion' as a synonym with 'lifestyle' then it does count.21. Comment #117069 by HeyBishop on January 28, 2008 at 7:47 am
22. Comment #117070 by ianmkz on January 28, 2008 at 7:47 am
23. Comment #117071 by jimbob on January 28, 2008 at 7:52 am
The physicist Steven Weinberg has said that, left alone, "you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." If you change the word "religion" to "dogma" or "faith" you have my view - and the view I suspect people like Weinberg, Dawkins, Dennett, Hitchens and Harris are really getting at.
24. Comment #117072 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 7:53 am
Is Occam's Razor a scientific dogma?Well, it's a blunt tool, but quite useful nonetheless.
25. Comment #117073 by -TheCodeCrack- on January 28, 2008 at 7:59 am
26. Comment #117074 by robotaholic on January 28, 2008 at 8:01 am
27. Comment #117075 by c4chaos on January 28, 2008 at 8:05 am
28. Comment #117076 by Artful_Dodger on January 28, 2008 at 8:06 am
"we need to be ruthless with obscurantism - whether it comes from orthodox theology, post-modern nonsense, new age silliness or naïve mechanistic psychology."29. Comment #117077 by HourglassMemory on January 28, 2008 at 8:10 am
Adogmatist sounds like a good name...30. Comment #117078 by _J_ on January 28, 2008 at 8:10 am
Is Occam's Razor a scientific dogma?
31. Comment #117081 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:15 am
What constitutes "obscurantism"?Belief that homosexuality is wrong because it is written in a very old book
32. Comment #117082 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:19 am
kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria)Bach's skill did not arise from christianity, else there would be millions of brilliant composers walking the earth today. Has he been non-religious, I suspect he would have found other themes on which to base his music.
33. Comment #117083 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:21 am
34. Comment #117085 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:28 am
35. Comment #117086 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 8:30 am
this article, like the posts submitted by the vast majority of contributors to this forum, classes as obscurantism any and all belief in a transcendent CreatorThat is because it is obscurantism.
...fails to make the necessary distinction between the kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria) and the "faith" that "inspired" the 9/11 attacks.At base, there is no difference. Both are delusions.
Many Christian thinkers have shown that they are more than capable of compellingly defending the Christian faith...No they're not. Spouting irrational assertions in the face of plain evidence does not class as a 'compelling' defense of the indefensible.
There are many well-documented cases of people in the Soviet block, up until the late 80s, who were excluded from public education because they were not prepared to declare that they were atheists.And there's been a damn sight more who have ben killed or tortured because they weren't Catholic/Protestant/Sunni/Shia etc.
36. Comment #117087 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 8:31 am
37. Comment #117088 by Gymnopedie on January 28, 2008 at 8:32 am
Well, at least someone understands!38. Comment #117089 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:35 am
39. Comment #117090 by annabanana on January 28, 2008 at 8:36 am
I wonder why we've gravitated to the using the word "religion" when we mean "dogma"? Is it simply because we learnt that word first in life? The media's use of the word? Or because it is the opposite of atheist, which we've all been dubbed, or dub ourselves?
Perhaps this question doesn't matter in the long run. Just an interesting thought.
40. Comment #117092 by Ultraviolet G on January 28, 2008 at 8:48 am
Great article to sum-up the present state of play.41. Comment #117093 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 8:50 am
Just look at how many discussions with theists ends with them moving on to "important tasks". My guess is that it is rationalised as "These atheists are closed to the 'truth' anyway, why bother".Yes, the inclination to leave and get back to more important things, can only be seen as either smug or desparate. It would be interesting if it was rationalised in your way. Surely, as good Christians, they want to spread the word and help us out? Yet we seem to be the ones who genuinely want to point them in the right diretion.
42. Comment #117095 by al-rawandi on January 28, 2008 at 8:58 am
43. Comment #117100 by Steve Zara on January 28, 2008 at 9:04 am
The problem is that this article, like the posts submitted by the vast majority of contributors to this forum, classes as obscurantism any and all belief in a transcendent Creator, and fails to make the necessary distinction between the kind of "faith" that gave rise to the music of Bach (soli Deo gloria) and the "faith" that "inspired" the 9/11 attacks.
And what about the "dogma" that religion is a virus (evidence please?) and that "religion is the root of all evil"? What about the dogma that Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with his atheism (you try telling that to people in the Soviet Union who were threatened with the Gulag or who were sent there on account of their theism!)?
On the scientific level, what about the dogma (still unproven belief based on a priori commitment to - in this case - a materialist worldview) that life can arise spontaneously out of inanimate matter?
44. Comment #117101 by Peacebeuponme on January 28, 2008 at 9:09 am
Fluffy Faith.Sounds like a '70s porn star.
45. Comment #117102 by locri on January 28, 2008 at 9:15 am
I found this article very interesting and definitely agree that a lot of what is behind "New Atheism" is basically just anti-dogmatism. It's obvious that many of the prominent authors of "New Atheism" are anti-dogmatic when topics like Stalin and Pot Pol (sp?) are brought up.46. Comment #117103 by irate_atheist on January 28, 2008 at 9:17 am
47. Comment #117105 by Rationalist1 on January 28, 2008 at 9:18 am
The Dogma Delusion would have alliterated, plus it would have stopped the immediate rejoinder by critics that Dawkins thinks all religious people are delusional. No, all people who believe unsubstantiated dogma are delusional. In that way Hitler, Stalin and people with religious faiths would be tarred with the same label. Its reasonable to ask for evidence below asserting to a belief. Otherwise that is delusional.48. Comment #117109 by tieInterceptor on January 28, 2008 at 9:24 am
49. Comment #117111 by _J_ on January 28, 2008 at 9:25 am
And what about the "dogma" that religion is a virus (evidence please?) and that "religion is the root of all evil"? What about the dogma that Stalin's atrocities had nothing to do with his atheism (you try telling that to people in the Soviet Union who were threatened with the Gulag or who were sent there on account of their theism!)?
On the scientific level, what about the dogma (still unproven belief based on a priori commitment to - in this case - a materialist worldview) that life can arise spontaneously out of inanimate matter?
If it's "dogma" the four horsemen or going to tilt at, let them tilt at ALL dogma.
Reason and evidence and empiricism and science and liberal democracy - in short, the forces of the Enlightenment - have discredited Communist and Fascist dogmas. Now, say Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, it is time for them to do the same to the dogmas of religious faith.
50. Comment #117114 by notsobad on January 28, 2008 at 9:29 am
1. Comment #117034 by FreeThink25 on January 28, 2008 at 6:12 am
Well.....yeah! Is someone really just realizing that this is what we've been talking about?I've thought about that last paragraph before. I cannot think of a religion that is not based on dogma or faith. Sure, people can stretch the meaning of the word, and lump in the things like "the religion of mathematics", or the "religion of physics"...but that does not convince me that "religion" is a valid term.
Anyone else?
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