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Inventor Doesn't Dare Say 'Perpetual Motion Machine'
by PhysOrg
Thanks to Steve Steriti for the link.
http://www.physorg.com/news121610315.html
Inventor Doesn't Dare Say 'Perpetual Motion Machine'
by Lisa Zyga
Thane Heins´ "Perepiteia" generator seems to turn magnetic friction into a magnetic boost, causing the motor to accelerate in a positive feedback loop.
Thane Heins knows the track record of inventors that claim to make breakthroughs in power generation methods, especially when they claim to defy the second law of thermodynamics. Every so often, a (usually untrained) scientist comes along with a machine that supposedly creates more energy than is put in. Every time, the ideas have been rebuked by real scientists.
That's why 46-year-old Heins, a college drop-out from Ottawa who's been working on his project since 1985, is being very cautious. He is the first to admit that he doesn't know how his machine works from a physics standpoint. He just hopes that someone else might understand.
Last week, Heins demonstrated his machine to MIT professor Markus Zahn, an expert in electromagnetic and electronic systems. It proved interesting enough to stump the professor, as well. But Zahn thinks the idea is worth investigating further. "It's an unusual phenomena I wouldn't have predicted in advance," Zahn told The Toronto Star. "But I saw it. It's real."
In Heins' machine, he explains that magnetic friction somehow gets turned into a magnetic boost. Working with an electric motor, he attached the drive shaft to a steel rotor with small round magnets lining its outer edges. In this set-up of a simple generator, the rotor would spin so that the magnets passed by a wire coil just in front of them, generating electrical energy.
Then Heins did an experiment: he overloaded the generator to get a current, which typically causes the wire coil to build up a large electromagnetic field. Usually, this kind of electromagnetic field creates an effect called "Back EMF" due to the so-called Lenz's law. The effect should repel the spinning magnets on the rotor, and slow them down until the motor stops completely, in accordance with the law of conservation.
But instead of stopping, the rotor began to accelerate. Heins recounts that the first time it happened, the magnets starting flying off and hitting the walls, as he ducked for cover.
The magnetic friction wasn't repelling the magnets and wire coil. Instead, as Heins explains, the steel rotor and driveshaft had conducted the magnetic resistance away from the coil and back into the electric motor. In effect, the Back EMF was boosting the magnetic fields used by the motor to generate electrical energy and cause acceleration.
The faster the motor accelerated, the stronger the electromagnetic field it would create on the wire coil, which in turn would make the motor go even faster. Heins seemed to have created a positive feedback loop. To confirm the theory, Heins replaced part of the driveshaft with plastic pipe that wouldn´t conduct the magnetic field. There was no acceleration.
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy," he says. He calls his system "Perepiteia," which in Greek means an action that has the opposite effect of what is intended. But he will leave it to others to decide if the technique can be described as "perpetual motion."
In 2005, Heins formed a company called Potential Difference Inc. to develop and market his invention. He's also been working with researchers from the University of Ottawa on its development, and has demonstrated the machine to several institutions, including the University of Virginia, Michigan State University, the University of Toronto and Queens University.
Heins has also been raising money for his invention, asking individuals such as former U.S. vice-president Al Gore, Virgin Group founder Richard Branson, Tesla Motors chairman Elon Musk, and Google´s "ReCharge IT" project. Due to his obsession with his machine, he has suffered a failed marriage and lost custody of his two children, and is currently unemployed. He doesn´t believe that his idea is a scientific breakthrough of any kind - he just thinks that it deserves to be investigated. MIT´s Zahn agrees.
"To my mind this is unexpected and new, and it´s worth exploring all the possible advantages once you´re convinced it´s a real effect," says Zahn. "There are an infinite number of induction machines in people´s homes and everywhere around the world. If you could make them more efficient, cumulatively, it could make a big difference."
http://www.physorg.com/news121610315.html
Inventor Doesn't Dare Say 'Perpetual Motion Machine'
by Lisa Zyga
Thane Heins´ "Perepiteia" generator seems to turn magnetic friction into a magnetic boost, causing the motor to accelerate in a positive feedback loop.
Thane Heins knows the track record of inventors that claim to make breakthroughs in power generation methods, especially when they claim to defy the second law of thermodynamics. Every so often, a (usually untrained) scientist comes along with a machine that supposedly creates more energy than is put in. Every time, the ideas have been rebuked by real scientists.
That's why 46-year-old Heins, a college drop-out from Ottawa who's been working on his project since 1985, is being very cautious. He is the first to admit that he doesn't know how his machine works from a physics standpoint. He just hopes that someone else might understand.
Last week, Heins demonstrated his machine to MIT professor Markus Zahn, an expert in electromagnetic and electronic systems. It proved interesting enough to stump the professor, as well. But Zahn thinks the idea is worth investigating further. "It's an unusual phenomena I wouldn't have predicted in advance," Zahn told The Toronto Star. "But I saw it. It's real."
In Heins' machine, he explains that magnetic friction somehow gets turned into a magnetic boost. Working with an electric motor, he attached the drive shaft to a steel rotor with small round magnets lining its outer edges. In this set-up of a simple generator, the rotor would spin so that the magnets passed by a wire coil just in front of them, generating electrical energy.
Then Heins did an experiment: he overloaded the generator to get a current, which typically causes the wire coil to build up a large electromagnetic field. Usually, this kind of electromagnetic field creates an effect called "Back EMF" due to the so-called Lenz's law. The effect should repel the spinning magnets on the rotor, and slow them down until the motor stops completely, in accordance with the law of conservation.
But instead of stopping, the rotor began to accelerate. Heins recounts that the first time it happened, the magnets starting flying off and hitting the walls, as he ducked for cover.
The magnetic friction wasn't repelling the magnets and wire coil. Instead, as Heins explains, the steel rotor and driveshaft had conducted the magnetic resistance away from the coil and back into the electric motor. In effect, the Back EMF was boosting the magnetic fields used by the motor to generate electrical energy and cause acceleration.
The faster the motor accelerated, the stronger the electromagnetic field it would create on the wire coil, which in turn would make the motor go even faster. Heins seemed to have created a positive feedback loop. To confirm the theory, Heins replaced part of the driveshaft with plastic pipe that wouldn´t conduct the magnetic field. There was no acceleration.
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy," he says. He calls his system "Perepiteia," which in Greek means an action that has the opposite effect of what is intended. But he will leave it to others to decide if the technique can be described as "perpetual motion."
In 2005, Heins formed a company called Potential Difference Inc. to develop and market his invention. He's also been working with researchers from the University of Ottawa on its development, and has demonstrated the machine to several institutions, including the University of Virginia, Michigan State University, the University of Toronto and Queens University.
Heins has also been raising money for his invention, asking individuals such as former U.S. vice-president Al Gore, Virgin Group founder Richard Branson, Tesla Motors chairman Elon Musk, and Google´s "ReCharge IT" project. Due to his obsession with his machine, he has suffered a failed marriage and lost custody of his two children, and is currently unemployed. He doesn´t believe that his idea is a scientific breakthrough of any kind - he just thinks that it deserves to be investigated. MIT´s Zahn agrees.
"To my mind this is unexpected and new, and it´s worth exploring all the possible advantages once you´re convinced it´s a real effect," says Zahn. "There are an infinite number of induction machines in people´s homes and everywhere around the world. If you could make them more efficient, cumulatively, it could make a big difference."
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Posted: Friday, February 8, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 277 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #124001 by 82abhilash on February 8, 2008 at 6:29 am
I do not know. Is this science or pseudo-science? There are some typical ingredients to make one skeptical, a lone inventor, a perpetual-motion machine.Anyway I found some videos explaining his concepts. Make up your own minds:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogLeKTlLy5E
Other Comments by 82abhilash
3. Comment #124005 by mdowe on February 8, 2008 at 6:38 am
I've studied the picture -- I don't see the point -- he seems to have forgotten the wool completely.Perpetual motion *is* pseudoscience of course. But this doesn't preclude the possibility that the inventor has come up with something new interesting (but I if I had to bet, I'd bet he probably hasn't).
Other Comments by mdowe
4. Comment #124007 by octopus on February 8, 2008 at 6:42 am
Hope he has not fogotten to take the plug out of mains. :DOther Comments by octopus
5. Comment #124010 by Slyer on February 8, 2008 at 6:46 am
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy,"Not something to be taken lightly..
Other Comments by Slyer
6. Comment #124011 by Bertybob on February 8, 2008 at 6:46 am
Mmmmm. Call me Mr Sceptical!There have been lots of wrecks along this road before. Still it seems like the guy is being open with his ideas.
I am sure we would all love it to be true, but I won't hold my breath whilst it is tested. Often once the covers are pulled back it is found to be errors of reading and calculation and the thing is sucking in energy from other sources. If those sources were free and plentiful and does not involve carbon, then who cares if it is perpetual or not!!
Other Comments by Bertybob
7. Comment #124012 by Lu Castro on February 8, 2008 at 6:54 am
The comment below was from a user on the phys.org site. It's hard not to get excited at articles like this, but it's clear that there is most likely a very good explanation...
"Upon further examination, I think he may simply be improving the motor's efficiency by causing a precessional effect on the electrons in the coil of the rotor. Backward magnetic flux is traversing through the motor's shaft acting normally against the rotor's magnetic moment creating a torque which is always normal to the shaft but in the plane of the rotor coil. This torque, in turn, acts on the angular momentum of the rotor in such a way as to cause the electrons to precess around the loop in phase with the magnetic field from the stator (and thus amplifying the magnetic field-flux from the stator when he re-connects the coils at about 60 hertz frequency). Of course, the inefficiencies from the electrical precessions in the loop is why the thing sounds so vibrationally noisy, and I think he could eliminate that vibration inefficiency even further by cooling the rotor coil down with liquid nitrogen (although the nitrogen wouldn't technically improve efficiency as that needs to be cooled and compressed, but efficiency in regards to getting more power out from the amount of power put in)."
Other Comments by Lu Castro
8. Comment #124013 by Ian Bamlett on February 8, 2008 at 6:58 am
I believe it.
It's how the UFO's work after all. A more advanced version anyway.
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
9. Comment #124014 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 6:58 am
That's why 46-year-old Heins, a college drop-out from Ottawa who's been working on his project since 1985Not a great starting point, is it?
Due to his obsession with his machine, he has suffered a failed marriage and lost custody of his two children, and is currently unemployed.And we're done!
NEXT!
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
10. Comment #124015 by BaronOchs on February 8, 2008 at 6:58 am
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy,"
Sorry I'm afraid but not by the hairs on my chinny chin chin.
Other Comments by BaronOchs
11. Comment #124016 by Quetzalcoatl on February 8, 2008 at 6:59 am
This reminds me of a quote from the Simpsons.
Homer to Lisa: Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
12. Comment #124018 by sarah95 on February 8, 2008 at 7:07 am
DAMNIT! Quetzacoatl beat me to it! I was thinking of that Simpsons quote too! I even watched that episode last week!
And again, for the sake of quoting homer:
"Young lady, in this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"
Other Comments by sarah95
13. Comment #124021 by Steve Zara on February 8, 2008 at 7:11 am
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy," he says.
If this is true, it could potentially destroy the UNIVERSE! (Muhahahaha!)
Other Comments by Steve Zara
14. Comment #124022 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 7:12 am
During his spare time, Mr. Heins also enjoys attending Star Trek conventions dressed as Ferengi Chancellor #2, collecting vintage TV Guides circa 1967-1972, while also selling large tracts of the moon on eBay the report didn't say. Other Comments by Tyler Durden
15. Comment #124025 by Philip1978 on February 8, 2008 at 7:17 am
I share everybody's scepticism but I also will just say happy hunting to the guy if he wins, lets see what happens. I think its intriguing that MIT have bothered to have their names connected with it and are interested enough to look at it, so we shall see.Sarah95, Quetz moves in mysterious ways, sometimes he chooses to get there first!
Great quote, great episode!
Philip
Other Comments by Philip1978
16. Comment #124035 by Zakie Chan on February 8, 2008 at 7:44 am
This is cool... but as we all know, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Best of luck to him though. It would be cool if it was for real... but I am not getting my hopes up.
Other Comments by Zakie Chan
17. Comment #124036 by GodlessHeathen on February 8, 2008 at 7:48 am
Now now, Tyler. There's no need to attack the person.He's some poor schlub who's deluded himself, that's all. (I was going to say he was some poor schlub who is missing some vital fact or two in his understanding, until the bit where he claims certainty that the machine violates the 2nd law.)
So, no need to attack the person when his ideas are ripe for the crushing.
Other Comments by GodlessHeathen
18. Comment #124039 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 7:55 am
Godless, I do apologise. And I would apologise to Mr. Heins too if he happened to share the same planet as me.
Damn. I did it again!
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
19. Comment #124040 by al-rawandi on February 8, 2008 at 7:55 am
That's why 46-year-old Heins, a college drop-out from Ottawa who's been working on his project since 1985,
He was trying to create a doobie rolling machine, but by accident broke the second law of thermodynamics.
When asked the man said: "Like... woh man. Dude, do you want to get some microwaveable burritos."
Other Comments by al-rawandi
20. Comment #124041 by Galactor on February 8, 2008 at 8:02 am
My guess is that if it is real, the rotor magnets are providing the energy and will therefore be losing their magnetic field strength over time.
It would then be an interesting case as to how we could re-magnetize the magnets using the earth's magnetic field.
(Oh stop me, I'm talking nonsense)
Other Comments by Galactor
21. Comment #124043 by annabanana on February 8, 2008 at 8:04 am
I forwarded the article to one of the electrical engineers I work with. We're having lunch today so I'm waiting to see what he has to say about it. He works with power plants all the time, and he's one of the smartest engineers I know, so hopefully he'll give me some insight as this is not exactly my area.I will say, though, that just because the guy claims that it's violating the 2nd Law doesn't mean that he hasn't come up with something useful.
Other Comments by annabanana
22. Comment #124044 by Verylee on February 8, 2008 at 8:05 am
He was trying to create a doobie rolling machine, but by accident broke the second law of thermodynamics
Now there's a thought! Maybe the machine is harnessing Psi quantum energy fields from Deepak's eternal youth seminars and transmogrifying all that hot air into a microwave cooker!
Other Comments by Verylee
23. Comment #124046 by Smith on February 8, 2008 at 8:13 am
If you ever wonder what would happen if this technology gets in the hands of the japanese, here is a hint. Other Comments by Smith
24. Comment #124047 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 8:14 am
comment by anna:
just because the guy claims that it's violating the 2nd Law doesn't mean that he hasn't come up with something useful.True, what with the price of scrap metal so high these days :)
Maybe if he put playing cards in the spokes it would work better!
Anyway... my flux-capacitor is on the fritz, back to the lab...
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
25. Comment #124048 by Szkeptik on February 8, 2008 at 8:17 am
Perpetual motion is impossible. It would violate the most fundamental physical laws. This is complete BS.Other Comments by Szkeptik
26. Comment #124050 by hoops mccann on February 8, 2008 at 8:32 am
"In 2005, Heins formed a company called Potential Difference Inc. to develop and market his invention ... Heins has also been raising money for his invention, asking individuals such as former U.S. vice-president Al Gore, Virgin Group founder Richard Branson, Tesla Motors chairman Elon Musk, and Google´s "ReCharge IT" project"
Yep. I figured this was the case well before I got to that part of the article. Could I be psychic? And, let me guess, he's selling shares in the company.
Other Comments by hoops mccann
27. Comment #124051 by RickM on February 8, 2008 at 8:34 am
There ain't no free lunch. Other Comments by RickM
28. Comment #124052 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 8:37 am
Last week, Heins demonstrated his machine to MIT professor Markus Zahn, an expert in electromagnetic and electronic systems.MIT = Muppets in Training?
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
29. Comment #124053 by Mal3 on February 8, 2008 at 8:37 am
Steve Zara~Now, I may only have a laymans understanding of physics, but isn't it the Second Law of Thermodynamics that is directly responsible for the eventual END of the universe?
I reckon if this guy is just breaking fundamental laws of nature willy nilly, we might use it to SAVE the universe from the evil clutches of inevitability and science.
Other Comments by Mal3
30. Comment #124054 by clatz on February 8, 2008 at 8:43 am
I don't get it. Though it wouldn't be the first time that has happened after reading something on this site ;-)
Is he saying the system generates 50W of power? i.e the difference in power drawn by the motor in the two states.
Surely he is just making the motor more efficient. So perhaps one state is simply hotter than the other. I'd like to see the system run in both states with the thermal camera.
Other Comments by clatz
31. Comment #124055 by HourglassMemory on February 8, 2008 at 8:54 am
At least he's asking for scientists to come and see it and explain to him what is happening.Other Comments by HourglassMemory
32. Comment #124056 by 82abhilash on February 8, 2008 at 8:56 am
I am wondering what point RD is trying to make by putting this article on his site.Not all of us can make an objective judgment for or against this invention. The article has a neutral tone to it. I can comfortably say most people here are skeptical.
Perhaps he wants to encourage critical thinking amongst his core audience.
Other Comments by 82abhilash
33. Comment #124057 by Dax on February 8, 2008 at 8:56 am
Let's face it... when all the cumulative math is in, this machine will not have generated more energy than put in.Even the magnets themselves will loose their magnetism over time... thus put in energy themselves.
Other Comments by Dax
34. Comment #124058 by theinquisitor on February 8, 2008 at 8:57 am
Aye, and if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.Other Comments by theinquisitor
35. Comment #124059 by sarah95 on February 8, 2008 at 9:00 am
MIT = Muppets in Training?
I always thought the muppets were too smart for their own good...
Anyway... my flux-capacitor is on the fritz, back to the lab...
I utilized a flux capacitor once. It was a piece of paper with a heart drawn on it with lightning coming out of it. We taped it to the dashboard of my friend's van, and filmed us "driving back in time" to visit the prophet zoroaster for our high school humanities class video project on zoroastrianism. That flux capacitor was pretty much the talk of the campus that week. The kids destined to be muppets were hankering to get a good look...
wow. sorry. I won't do that again. However, my friends and I made other videos, and one of them has had some success on google video. "3" was a parody of the film 300...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8295016448696533268&q=300 parody video&total=1867&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4
Other Comments by sarah95
36. Comment #124060 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 9:02 am
Heins has also been raising money for his invention, asking individuals such as former U.S. vice-president Al Gore, Virgin Group founder Richard Branson, Tesla Motors chairman Elon Musk, and Google´s "ReCharge IT" project.Classic bait and switch technique. Are we to infer from this that Gore, Branson and Google have given him money or that Heins has simply asked them for money and as such received a polite "Thanks, but no thanks!"
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
37. Comment #124064 by Smith on February 8, 2008 at 9:11 am
For those who wonder if the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics can ever be violated and for those who claim it can never be violated, maybe the thought experiment by Maxwell (yeah, that Maxwell), called Maxwell's demon, will interest you. Other Comments by Smith
38. Comment #124065 by yanco on February 8, 2008 at 9:11 am
No, no, nooo! You all got it wrong! Who is the only one who can violate laws of the Nature?
Other Comments by yanco
39. Comment #124067 by Tyler Durden on February 8, 2008 at 9:15 am
Superman? Other Comments by Tyler Durden
40. Comment #124068 by octopus on February 8, 2008 at 9:17 am
Superman?
Nah...Chuck Norris. :D
Other Comments by octopus
41. Comment #124069 by MartinSGill on February 8, 2008 at 9:18 am
Let's cut the guy some slack. He's openly admitted he has no idea what's happening and he's asking scientists to find out what's going on.I think this is the best approach and I think he's at least bright enough to realise that you don't get something for nothing; and there's nothing wrong with him hoping though.
If it turns out that he's managed to discover a technique for getting electric motors to be a lot more efficient then that's a damn good accomplishment.
Lots of things have been discovered by accident; Vulcanisation, Penicillin to name just two.
Other Comments by MartinSGill
42. Comment #124070 by octopus on February 8, 2008 at 9:22 am
"What I can say with full confidence is that our system violates the law of conservation of energy," he says.
Other Comments by octopus
43. Comment #124074 by leodavinci on February 8, 2008 at 9:45 am
Man i hope his machine doesn't work, i want my baby to work, ive refining and improving the design for almost ten years - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cu8zGGjCbXI andi also made an animation of leonardo da vincis attempt at perpetual motion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhR-K10UjnY , very slick little machine.
I know PM is pseudosciency but i quite like challenging our current understanding of the laws of physics.
For example " Energy cannot be created or destroyed" - does that mean that the universe has existed forever? If so wouldn't that be the perpetual motion of a closed system with no loss or gain of energy? Does that mean that the laws of physics simultaneously prohibit and allow perpetual motion?
I don't know but at the same time i'm very rational and you shouldn't put perpetual motion seekers into the same place as alchemists, god botherers, psychics and alien abductees. Why is the universes expansion speeding up instead of slowing down as the laws of physics predict? Dark matter, dark energy? Nobody knows where this energy is coming from, maybe the universe is one giant perpetual motion machine!!
Other Comments by leodavinci
44. Comment #124075 by notdeluded on February 8, 2008 at 9:47 am
Fast proof.I would take a look at the energy bills at his home. If he pays more than zero, his machine is fake.
Other Comments by notdeluded
45. Comment #124078 by tooltroll on February 8, 2008 at 9:50 am
For thousands of years, the sun orbited the earth, which was flat, god(s) influenced our daily lives, and powered flight was impossible. Sooner or later, somebody comes along and breaks the rules, and has to fight tooth and claw to get their new facts accepted, which task is usually made much more difficult due to years (or centuries) of poseurs and charlatans making similar claims to scam others. Gradually, though, we come to understand the physical principles behind such new ideas and technologies.
I'm willing to wait and see. If this is the long awaited legitimate 'perpetual motion' machine, I'm sure in a decade or two, science will have examined and explained it, and it will be found to conform with physical laws. It might even be the type of rare event that causes us to rethink some basic physical concepts.
Other Comments by tooltroll
46. Comment #124079 by samratpathania on February 8, 2008 at 9:55 am
What saddens me when I read the comments with regard to this post is that people are resorting to personal attacks to dismiss this person.This person may be a college dropout (Bill Gates was one wasn't he) and he may have a ruined marriage.
But what does that have to do with the credibility of his invention.
I am surprised at the ease with which people dismiss other people's ideas/ inventions without giving them any credit for their efforts.
It reminds me of an German philosopher/astronomer who proposed that the earth came out of Jupiter.
Carl Sagan talks about this in Cosmos and he was shocked not at the this idea itself but at the vehement dismissal of this idea by learned people.
Prove the man wrong. That is all we have to do.
Other Comments by samratpathania
47. Comment #124083 by robert s on February 8, 2008 at 10:04 am
The real test for claims of this sort is reproducibility. If someone else can construct a similar machine, then skeptics have a case to answer.Putting on a dog-and-pony show, even for an MIT professor, doesn't mean anyone has to prove him wrong.
Other Comments by robert s
48. Comment #124086 by tooltroll on February 8, 2008 at 10:11 am
Here's his patent application:
http://patents.ic.gc.ca/cipo/cpd/en/patent/2437745/summary.html
I find it slightly suspicious that the diagrams are, apparently, somehow, unscannable. Say what? Is my country's patent office using Fisher-Price scanners? Or was the scanner donated by, say, Petro-Canada, and just can't resolve images that may cut into their profits? Hmmmmmm. . .
Other Comments by tooltroll
49. Comment #124092 by Chun on February 8, 2008 at 10:57 am
I'm not sure why people are criticising this guy so much. At the very least, he's improved the efficiency of electric motors, which is no small thing.Other Comments by Chun
50. Comment #124096 by Cartomancer on February 8, 2008 at 11:06 am
Pah! This is nothing. Classical Athens had three highly regarded Peripeteia generators throughout the fifth century BC - they were called Aeschylus, Sophocles and Euripides.
(I really should stop making obscure jokes based on the technical terminology in Aristotle's Poetics, but if any of my classics students are out there then this one is for you!)
Other Comments by Cartomancer
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1. Comment #123999 by annabanana on February 8, 2008 at 6:19 am
Other Comments by annabanana