Friday, February 22, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Over half of Britons claim no religion

by Times Online

Thanks to Nigel Sewell for the link.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3412118.ece

Over half of Britons claim no religion
Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent of The Times

Freedom from religion in Britain is becoming as important as freedom of religion, according to a United Nations investigation into religion in the UK.

In a 23-page report published this evening, a UN rapporteur claims the 2001 Census findings that nearly 72 per cent of the population is Christian can no longer be regarded as accurate. The report claims that two-thirds of British people now do not admit to any religious adherence.

The report also calls for the disestablishment of the Church of England. The role and privileges of the established Church are challenged because they do not reflect "the religious demography of the country and the rising proportion of other Christian denominations."

The report also warns that measures to combat terrorism in Britain could be undermined because of discrimination against Muslims.

According to the report into the freedom of religion and belief in the UK, there is an "overall respect for human rights and their value." But the report warns that Muslims in particular face screening, searches, interrogation and arrest.

Citing research that showed that 80 per cent of Muslims in Britain feel they have been discriminated against, the report singles out the Terrorism Act 200 for particular criticism.

Under the act, police in some areas can stop and search people without having to show reasonable suspicion.

The report says this affects ethnic and religious minorities more than other groups, especially since the July 7 bombings in 2005.

Figures for 2004 to 2006 "show that searches of people with Asian appearance under this provision increased by 84 per cent, compared to an increase of only 24 per cent for White people," the report says.

The report's author, Asma Jahangir, the UN special rapporteur on freedom of religion or belief, also criticises terms in the Terrorism Act 2006 for being "overly broad and vaguely worded." Phrases she focuses on include "indirectly encouraging" acts of terrorism, and "glorification", interpreted to mean "any form of praise or celebration." She also describes the policy of 28 days in detention without charge as unsatisfactory.

Ms Jahangir, 55, twice chair of the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan and who was herself only released from house arrest in Lahore during November, says in her conclusions "there exists no hierarchy of discrimination grounds."

She argues that religion should not have a lower ranking when competing rights are being balanced.

However, she does acknowledge concern about "informal matrimonial courts operating within the Muslim community based on sharia law." Ms Jahangir, a mother of three children, says the argument by some religious leaders that their traditions should override the rights of women is "unacceptable".

The report was published the day after the Archbishop of Canterbury said some of the ways in which Sharia was practised were "appalling".

Dr Rowan Williams said the way the system was applied to women in countries such as Saudi Arabia was "grim". The Archbishop was speaking in Cambridge days after being criticised for raising the possibility that some aspects of Sharia might be introduced into the British legal system. "What I was trying to say the other day is that sharia law is a very, very wide-ranging scheme of legal understanding within historic Islam," the Archbishop said at a public lecture in Great St Mary's Church.

"It is rooted in the sense of doing God's will in the ordinary things of life." But he added: "In some of the ways it has been codified and practised across the world, it has been appalling."

To read the full report click here, click here and scroll to reference A/HRC/7/10/Add.3.

Add to del.icio.us Posted: Friday, February 22, 2008 | Permalink

Comments 51 - 100 of 148 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

51. Comment #131422 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:29 pm

Outline for us all the ideological implications of atheism, please.

No, I think that is for atheists to work out.

Other Comments by krisking

52. Comment #131423 by Noodly on February 22, 2008 at 12:29 pm

It is very important that we start a campaign to educate the UK masses in the difference between cultural christianity and actually believing in the stuff.

The next UK census is in 2011 - we don't have a minute to waste.

Other Comments by Noodly

53. Comment #131424 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 12:30 pm

I agree with you totally here. It's high time we recognise that krisking is not searching for anything other than the little thrill he gets everytime he thinks he has needled the atheists.

I have to agree.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

54. Comment #131426 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:32 pm

everytime he thinks he has needled the atheists.

No, I am not particularly interested in needling atheists (or anyone else for that matter.

from a person who cannot support their faith

I have not tried to today, and I have no intention of doing so.

Other Comments by krisking

55. Comment #131428 by SRWB on February 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm

He can stay as long as he doesn't go all whiney on us about being banned like David Flea!

Other Comments by SRWB

56. Comment #131429 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Krisking-

No, I think that is for atheists to work out.

Well, if you're not willing to discuss them, I think it only fair that you no longer use the phrase to needle others.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

57. Comment #131430 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:34 pm

in the difference between cultural christianity and actually believing in the stuff.

what do you think the difference is?

.and why do you think it's important?

Other Comments by krisking

58. Comment #131431 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:35 pm

you no longer use the phrase

Sorry, which phrase?

Other Comments by krisking

59. Comment #131432 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 12:35 pm

SRWB-

He can stay as long as he doesn't go all whiney on us about being banned like David Flea!

Or Artful Dodger. He developed a martyr complex and flounced off in solidarity with Wee Flea this morning. But he'll be back.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

60. Comment #131433 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Well you made the assertion that atheism is similar to religious faith. We have outlined what we think religious faith is here ad naseum.

The burden is on you to back up your assertion with some evidence. Please do so, we would like to have a first here.... a theist who actually backs up a claim with some evidence.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

61. Comment #131434 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 12:37 pm

Sorry, which phrase?

The phrase "ideological implications of atheism". If you're not willing to define it or discuss it, you shouldn't use it to provoke others.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

62. Comment #131435 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Faith suppresses critical facilities that are important for humanity in this century.

True, but don't forget compartmentalisation. My girlfriend (before she lost her faith during her discussions with me and having me read TGD to her) used to be a good example: Coming from a highly religious family (German protestantism - quite liberal and not opposed to science), having received strong childhood indoctrination, she was religious and had her faith. Yet, she is a student of biology and has a very good understanding of the natural sciences as well as logic and mathematics. Quite an intelligent person capable of rational inquiry and thinking scientifically about scientific matters.

-Compartmentailsation.

The consequences of her childhood indoctrination and applying rational inquiry to her religion with the consequence of having lost her religious faith?
She is afraid to come out to her family and friends - as her family (otherwise very nice people), including her older sister with whom she always has been very close, wouldn't be able to cope with that and couldn't accept her being an atheist. Actually, a few weeks ago, when I asked her what she's planning on doing concerning her family and the religious activities (going to church, singing in the choir, leading a children's group) she observes, she was so worried by this that she was crying in my arms for about an hour.

I cannot tell you how much I despised religion at that moment.

Faith is "thinking without a seat belt".

Hmm... I would have said "Faith is thinking with a restraining order"

Other Comments by MPhil

63. Comment #131436 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:40 pm

The burden is on you to back up your assertion with some evidence. Please do so, we would like to have a first here.... a theist who actually backs up a claim with some evidence.

I am not suggestion that you have any religious faith. I am suggesting that being an atheist will have implications for your lifestyles.

Other Comments by krisking

64. Comment #131437 by SRWB on February 22, 2008 at 12:43 pm

what do you think the difference is?

How about this - there was a huge thread about Xmas carols, etc. where many of us stated that we actually were "cultural Christians" who listened to carols, ate turkey, exchanged gifts,etc. on 25 Dec. We did (do) all that without actually believing in the birth of a deity who later died to save mankind.
The importance is that we have adopted certain cultural affections because of our historical experiences and these simply make getting along a little easier. Besides, who doesn't like birthday parties?

Other Comments by SRWB

65. Comment #131438 by Double Bass Atheist on February 22, 2008 at 12:43 pm

krisking
Here's a well known quote to remedy your point:

"It is an interesting and demonstrable fact that all children are atheists, and were religion not inculcated into their minds, they would remain so."
-Ernestine Rose

See kris, the point is that atheism is the default position! It is only religion that requires indoctrination.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

66. Comment #131439 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:45 pm

I am not suggestion that you have any religious faith. I am suggesting that being an atheist will have implications for your lifestyles.

Yes indeed. It means we're not likely to pray to Mars for victory, to Poseidon for steady waters, we're not likely to sacrifice animals to appease Yahweh, that we're not likely to insist on women covering every inch of their skin etc.

In that way it does influence our lifestyles. But so does being an atheist about 99% of all the gods ever invented influence your lifestyle.

Other Comments by MPhil

67. Comment #131441 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 12:46 pm

krisking,

What implications are those?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

68. Comment #131442 by Deepthought on February 22, 2008 at 12:47 pm

I go back to my original point, despite krisking failing to convince that there is an atheist ideology to indoctrinate, not teaching about religion or attempting to remove them from any contact with it will only prove self-defeating.

Rational, sceptical enquiry and openness to all ideas will inevitably lead most people to a rejection of religion. You don't need to do anything else; certainly not coach or teach against it. The best way to get people to question belief is to expose them to the proponents of belief and inquire into the teachings. Most people here will tell you that is the process that made them into non-believers.

I think I messed up my explanation. I meant to say that teaching them rational inquiry and not teaching them religion, but about religion, would lead them to atheism. The negative way I was thinking of is what you describe as "coach or teach against it". The flip side is what you described. I'm sorry I was unclear.

Other Comments by Deepthought

69. Comment #131443 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 12:48 pm

al-rawandi-

maybe the implications are that we tend to question stuff. I can see how that would be a problem.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

70. Comment #131444 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Well, I guess I can be honest here, we are all friends. I am an out atheist. I start my day with a good atheist fried egg (you can get them from the best supermarkets), then I read my atheist paper. Then, time for work! Sitting at my atheist-branded laptop, I develop atheist software. Then, it is time for lunch. I might wander out to town and meet up with atheist friends and go to an atheist restaurant, and eat yet more atheist-certified food. Then back home, more work, and after watching some good atheist TV, then off to bed after having repeated my declarations of atheism.

Sound weird? Change "atheist" to "religious" and it all kind of works... (well, perhaps not the laptop, but who knows?)

Religious people sometimes seem pretty desperate to make us seem as nutty as them. It is like an addict trying to take comfort from declaring that others are addicts too.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

71. Comment #131445 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:50 pm

"It is an interesting and demonstrable fact that all children are atheists,

I think that is an interesting idea. I have not read any Ernestine Rose. I wonder where the evidence is for this.

the point is the atheism is the default position

At the moment, I don't think I agree with this; mostly because there is so much religion in the world. Where did it all come from? Why does it exist at all?

Anyway, you will all be pleased to know that my copy of Dawkins ' The god delusion' arrived this morning in the post.

Other Comments by krisking

72. Comment #131447 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 12:51 pm

krisking,

What are the implications of atheism in my life?

Please answer or I will repeatedly post it until you answer, or Josh drives to San Francisco and shoots me in the face.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

73. Comment #131448 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:54 pm

good atheist fried egg

.but would that be a battery chicken egg, or a free-range organic one....or doesn't it matter?

Other Comments by krisking

74. Comment #131449 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Please answer or I will repeatedly post it until you answer, or Josh drives to San Francisco and shoots me in the face.

There is a phrase that has to be said in some sort of London accent:

"Leave off, he ain't worth it"

Other Comments by Steve Zara

75. Comment #131450 by Double Bass Atheist on February 22, 2008 at 12:55 pm

there is so much religion in the world. Where did it all come from? Why does it exist at all?

Glad to hear that your copy of TGD has finally arrived. Dawkins addresses your questions regarding the possible origins of religion(s) in the second half of this book.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

76. Comment #131451 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 12:55 pm

but would that be a battery chicken egg, or a free-range organic one....or doesn't it matter?

Which one do you think would be appropriate for the atheist lifestyle?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

77. Comment #131452 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 12:56 pm

krisking,

Answer me alread, spare us the headache.

Steve,

Yeah, I gave up on the idea, I don't have the energy. I am already multi-tasking beyond what my IQ permits.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

78. Comment #131454 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:56 pm

krisking,

atheism, or rather non-theism is the default position because without a concept of god you cannot be a theist. As you acquire conceptions over time, along with the ability to modify and reflect upon them (much later than having conceptions), you are born without theism, thus an atheist or non-theist (if you like that term better, but it really means the same).

Where does religion come from? Now that's too easily answered by psychology and sociology. Looking for patterns is essential for entities governed by central nervous systems - and there is a good likelyhood of false positives, because that gets you far less in trouble than being predisposed towards false negatives.
Furthermore, there is the need for explanations where there are none or at least not to your knowledge or as of yet (in the times religions were invented, people had very little real knowledge of how the world works - every lightning, thunder, rainfall, pretty much everything was puzzling).

So people see intentionality where there is none and invent stories to explain stuff - without explanatory power - ie myths.

Other Comments by MPhil

79. Comment #131455 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:57 pm

What are the implications of atheism in my life?

Please don't get frustrated. My answer is that I have no idea what the implications for your life will be. Only you can answer that question, and you may find that how you answer the question may change over time and according to the circumstances in which you find yourself and how you feel at a given moment.

What the implications for society of us all becoming atheists, I have no idea either. I hope it will not result in intolerance for people with what are perceived as whacky ideas.

Other Comments by krisking

80. Comment #131457 by MPhil on February 22, 2008 at 12:58 pm

al-rawandi,

there are implications - and I mentioned them in post 131439. ;)

Other Comments by MPhil

81. Comment #131458 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 12:59 pm

atheism, or rather non-theism is the default position because without a concept of god you cannot be a theist.

Yes, on reflection, i have to agree with you.

Other Comments by krisking

82. Comment #131459 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 1:00 pm

Which one do you think would be appropriate for the atheist lifestyle?

Free-range, I hope, but will we all be able to afford them?

Other Comments by krisking

83. Comment #131460 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 1:01 pm

I think we use the "lifestyle" idea. After all, it could be good marketing.

I can see it now. Some hunk (say Daniel Craig), in a tux, sitting at a table in a smart restaurant, with a class of champagne, looking out the window at an executive jet. Then he turns to the camera.. and says ... "I'm an atheist".

Then a husky female voiceover reads out some scrolling text. "The Atheist Lifestyle. You can have all this too. Join us at www.richarddawkins.net".

Other Comments by Steve Zara

84. Comment #131461 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 1:02 pm

al-rawandi

Did my answer come through to you yet?

Must go and watch that program on telly tonight about a school-teacher trying to get boys to sing....

Other Comments by krisking

85. Comment #131462 by epeeist on February 22, 2008 at 1:03 pm

Comment #131445 by krisking

At the moment, I don't think I agree with this; mostly because there is so much religion in the world. Where did it all come from? Why does it exist at all?

You missed the addendum - "and why is it all different if it is ineffably true?"

Oh, and "what happens to gods when nobody believes in them any more?"

Other Comments by epeeist

86. Comment #131463 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Must go and watch that program on telly

oh, and read Dawkins' book

Other Comments by krisking

87. Comment #131464 by krisking on February 22, 2008 at 1:06 pm

and why is it all different if it is ineffably true?"

Well, some people will claim that we have a god shaped hole in our beings.........

Other Comments by krisking

88. Comment #131465 by Sauveterre on February 22, 2008 at 1:06 pm

A bad idea only has to be come up with once, in distant antiquity, and as long as it is imposed on your progeny, has built-in defense against members leaving (hell), and is the best explanation for the world you have(at the time it was), it will continue to be passed down regardless of whether it has any merits. If you really don't agree with this, simply ask yourself, if a child were not allowed any interaction with religion at all, would they ever come up with the gospel of Jesus Christ? No. Would they come to any other religion, if they werent specifically taught it? No. Then they are atheist.
However, it is quite conceivable, in fact almost a guarantee, that were all scientific understanding of the world eliminated, it would eventually be re-discovered in its entirety. This is because science depends on a world that is always there for everyone to see, where the laws arent changing. Rather than on some relatively inconsequential, piddling events in the Bronze-age Middle East.

Other Comments by Sauveterre

89. Comment #131466 by quill on February 22, 2008 at 1:07 pm

In a 23-page report published this evening, a UN rapporteur claims the 2001 Census findings that nearly 72 per cent of the population is Christian can no longer be regarded as accurate. The report claims that two-thirds of British people now do not admit to any religious adherence.

I'm sure someone's pointed this out already, but "no adherence" does not mean "no religion". The fact that people do not attend religious services does not mean they are not religious. We should be counting people based on what they claim to believe, not in whether they adhere to their religious practices.

Honestly, I'd be willing to bet that a slim majority in the US, or something at least approaching one, do not attend church services either, but that does not make them atheists.

Other Comments by quill

90. Comment #131470 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 1:10 pm

Epeeist-

Oh, and "what happens to gods when nobody believes in them any more?"

They fade away for a while, then slowly regain their strength. They also learn to use the Internet to post unfunny jokes on discussion threads.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

91. Comment #131471 by Cartomancer on February 22, 2008 at 1:10 pm

Advertising the "Atheist Lifestyle" eh? I wonder if we're going to get "atheist villages" springing up in town centres, with atheist bars, atheist clubs, atheist bookshops, solicitors and estate agents catering to the atheist market (houses that most expressly don't align with Mecca?), special atheist magazines all about which gods we don't believe in this month, and atheist pride parades every July?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

92. Comment #131472 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 1:13 pm

special atheist magazines all about which gods we don't believe in this month

"An infinite series. Parts 1-10 free if you subscribe now."

and atheist pride parades every July?

Ooh! Can I suggest Roy Zimmerman for the concert afterwards? He's cute.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

93. Comment #131473 by Quetzalcoatl on February 22, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Well, some people will claim that we have a god shaped hole in our beings.........

They would be wrong.

People have all sorts of holes in their beings. None of them are shaped like gods. At least, like no gods I would want to know about.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

94. Comment #131474 by SharonMcT on February 22, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Can we have the parade in May instead of July? Atheists hate sweating.

Other Comments by SharonMcT

95. Comment #131475 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 1:14 pm

krisking,

Ok. Well thanks Dr. Phil. That was some touchy feely mumbo jumbo.

If everyone became an atheist, why do you think there would be more intolerance? There are many atheists with whacky ideas.

In my ideal world people are free to believe what they want, but assertions as fact require evidence, and no "belief" may infringe on another's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Epeeist,

Not the use of the 'Oxford Comma'. You're welcome.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

96. Comment #131476 by Steve Zara on February 22, 2008 at 1:15 pm

No, its "brains", not "beings". Still, that is what religion does for you...

Other Comments by Steve Zara

97. Comment #131478 by Cartomancer on February 22, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Atheist cinemas showing specialist atheist films with no gods in them? Maybe ground-breaking atheist cinema, with films showing the exotic, forbidden rationality of two atheist cowboys discussing Spinoza in a tent far from civilisation every winter? Atheist TV programmes such as "Atheist eye for the godly guy?" where Steve Zara, Paula Kirby and Diacanu go round altering churches to be more to their tastes?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

98. Comment #131479 by al-rawandi on February 22, 2008 at 1:17 pm

I figure the atheist parade would end something like the parade at the end of the movie "Animal House".

I want to drive the float which careens into the bleachers, and takes out the mayor and his wife.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

99. Comment #131480 by Cartomancer on February 22, 2008 at 1:18 pm

A special Atheist version of Cluedo where the Reverend Green did it every time?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

100. Comment #131482 by epeeist on February 22, 2008 at 1:19 pm

Comment #131466 by quill

I'm sure someone's pointed this out already, but "no adherence" does not mean "no religion".

Not sure about this (especially after downing a large amount of red wine).

It probably means "I have a vague feeling that I ought to believe in some kind of god and the local religion is [insert religion here] so I will profess to that even though I am not an active adherent." In the UK, it means CofE even though the only time you go to church is for hatch, match and despatch ceremonies.

I can remember going in to hospital many years ago and being asked what my religion was. When I said I wasn't active in any religion (this was before I converted to atheism) the nurse said "I will put you down as CofE."

Other Comments by epeeist