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Sunday, March 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document The Great Tantra Challenge

by Rationalist International

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html

The Great Tantra Challenge

image descriptionOn 3 March 2008, in a popular TV show, Sanal Edamaruku, the president of Rationalist International, challenged India's most "powerful" tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the "ultimate destruction ceremony" on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual. India TV observed skyrocketing viewership rates.

Everything started, when Uma Bharati (former chief minister of the state of Madhya Pradesh) accused her political opponents in a public statement of using tantrik powers to inflict damage upon her. In fact, within a few days, the unlucky lady had lost her favorite uncle, hit the door of her car against her head and found her legs covered with wounds and blisters.

India TV, one of India's major Hindi channels with national outreach, invited Sanal Edamaruku for a discussion on "Tantrik power versus Science". Pandit Surinder Sharma, who claims to be the tantrik of top politicians and is well known from his TV shows, represented the other side. During the discussion, the tantrik showed a small human shape of wheat flour dough, laid a thread around it like a noose and tightened it. He claimed that he was able to kill any person he wanted within three minutes by using black magic. Sanal challenged him to try and kill him.

The tantrik tried. He chanted his mantras (magic words): "Om lingalingalinalinga, kilikili…." But his efforts did not show any impact on Sanal — not after three minutes, and not after five. The time was extended and extended again. The original discussion program should have ended here, but the "breaking news" of the ongoing great tantra challenge was overrunning all program schedules.

image descriptionNow the tantrik changed his technique. He started sprinkling water on Sanal and brandishing a knife in front of him. Sometimes he moved the blade all over his body. Sanal did not flinch. Then he touched Sanal's head with his hand, rubbing and rumpling up his hair, pressing his forehead, laying his hand over his eyes, pressing his fingers against his temples. When he pressed harder and harder, Sanal reminded him that he was supposed to use black magic only, not forceful attacks to bring him down. The tantrik took a new run: water, knife, fingers, mantras. But Sanal kept looking very healthy and even amused.

After nearly two hours, the anchor declared the tantrik's failure. The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him. "No, I am an atheist," said Sanal Edamaruku. Finally, the disgraced tantrik tried to save his face by claiming that there was a never-failing special black magic for ultimate destruction, which could, however, only been done at night. Bad luck again, he did not get away with this, but was challenged to prove his claim this very night in another "breaking news" live program.

image descriptionDuring the next three hours, India TV ran announcements for The Great Tantra Challenge that called several hundred million people to their TV sets.

The encounter took place under the open night sky. The tantrik and his two assistants were kindling a fire and staring into the flames. Sanal was in good humour. Once the ultimate magic was invoked, there wouldn't be any way back, the tantrik warned. Within two minutes, Sanal would get crazy, and one minute later he would scream in pain and die. Didn't he want to save his life before it was too late? Sanal laughed, and the countdown begun. The tantriks chanted their "Om lingalingalingalinga, kilikilikili…." followed by ever changing cascades of strange words and sounds. The speed increased hysterically. They threw all kinds of magic ingredients into the flames that produced changing colours, crackling and fizzling sounds and white smoke. While chanting, the tantrik came close to Sanal, moved his hands in front of him and touched him, but was called back by the anchor. After the earlier covert attempts of the tantrik to use force against Sanal, he was warned to keep distance and avoid touching Sanal. But the tantrik "forgot" this rule again and again.

Now the tantrik wrote Sanal's name on a sheet of paper, tore it into small pieces, dipped them into a pot with boiling butter oil and threw them dramatically into the flames. Nothing happened. Singing and singing, he sprinkled water on Sanal, mopped a bunch of peacock feathers over his head, threw mustard seed into the fire and other outlandish things more. Sanal smiled, nothing happened, and time was running out. Only seven more minutes before midnight, the tantrik decided to use his ultimate weapon: the clod of wheat flour dough. He kneaded it and powdered it with mysterious ingredients, then asked Sanal to touch it. Sanal did so, and the grand magic finale begun. The tantrik pierced blunt nails on the dough, then cut it wildly with a knife and threw them into the fire. That moment, Sanal should have broken down. But he did not. He laughed. Forty more seconds, counted the anchor, twenty, ten, five… it's over!


image descriptionMillions of people must have uttered a sigh of relief in front their TVs. Sanal was very much alive. Tantra power had miserably failed. Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one's life at risk, he said. By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph.

In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.

The whole program is video-recorded and is available. If you want a copy, please contact: info_desk@rationalistinternational.net

Comments 51 - 83 of 83 |

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51. Comment #144823 by Wosret on March 16, 2008 at 8:16 pm

 avatarHeh, I remember when I was a kid I used to be extremely afraid of the dark. Up until I was about 6 I think.

My brother scared the crap out of me by getting me to believe in tree trolls (shut up, I was 6). If you look at in a tree at night from under it, one would jump down and ripp your face off. One day I tested it, and my face remained intact. After that, stories of monsters and things like that never fooled me.

Shortly after I gained a fear of dolls through Chucky, and clowns through Poltergeist (oddly enough, not ghosts though) which dominated my nightmares for the next couple years. At least they were real things.

I really think that nothing speaks to a person like seeing a claim falsified in front of their eyes. It is the most powerful counter-measure that can be taken against such claims.

I applaud this, as I think this truly is a seriously blow toward belief in such things for a number of the people that were watching, and believed it.

Other Comments by Wosret

52. Comment #144828 by Wosret on March 16, 2008 at 8:23 pm

 avatarAs Dougles Adams remarked Plan 9, with his "Babble fish" (was it?). If something proves god, then it makes faith unnecessary, and thus god cannot exist, as he would not leave proof of himself because faith is so fundemental to belief!

So, if an amputee's limp to grow back, it would be proof that god doesn't exist! Then he would promptly disppear in a buff of logic.

Other Comments by Wosret

53. Comment #144834 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 8:33 pm

Goldy
Richard, I notice a large increase in the frequency of the word fuck (and it's derivatives) in your posts.
Three reasons for this:
1. I've been reading too many threads on RDNet.
2. I've just finished reading "I am Charlotte Simmons" by Tom Wolfe, and
3. I am quite seriously thinking of organising an RDNet knees-up somewhere in Europe like Juan-les-Pins or Piraeus or Copacabana-on-Tyne or Llanymynech-under-Nurisht or somesuch, and I don't want to be considered as conversationally handicapped by my fellow RDNutters,oops, I mean RDNetters.
So, fuck you, Jimmy.
Or Goldy.
Shouldn't you be in bed, anyway?

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

54. Comment #144836 by Goldy on March 16, 2008 at 8:39 pm

 avatarRichard
Bed? Fuck no, only 4:37 here in the arvo. Waiting for quarter to, then I can fuck off home, picking up wife and child on the way. No fucking beer, but fuck it, I'll have gin. Next best fucking thing.
Fuck Europe for a knees up - come to NZ. House prices are falling slightly, so you might get a deal. Mind you, wouldn't fucking count on it - but fuck it, the beers cold.
:-D

Other Comments by Goldy

55. Comment #144839 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Goldy - sorry, I'd forgotten you lived in NZ.
Talking about the use of the f*** word - do you give lessons?

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

56. Comment #144844 by MelM on March 16, 2008 at 8:55 pm

The web site's worth a look.
http://www.rationalistinternational.net/

Sanal Edamaruku moved India and the world forward in just one courageous evening. Wow! If UK TV could get hold of the video and make a show out of it; what a sensation that would be!

I'd love to see Benny Hinn caught like this!

Other Comments by MelM

57. Comment #144848 by MelM on March 16, 2008 at 9:03 pm

Atheism needs a good cartoonist.

Other Comments by MelM

58. Comment #144849 by mintcheerios on March 16, 2008 at 9:04 pm

Sanal Edamaruku is a hero.

Other Comments by mintcheerios

59. Comment #144853 by Dogzilla on March 16, 2008 at 9:14 pm

 avatarYears of watching Christian television here in the States finally paid off not long ago during a Benny Hinn TV revival.

Hinn had invited those who wanted to be healed to come and stand along the front of the stage, as he normally does. He proceeded down the line, touching people on the forehead and them falling over backwardsâ€""slain in the Lord". As the "slain" people regained their feet they'd be ushered off and other people would take their place in line awaiting their turn. He'd gotten about half-way down the line when he reached a middle-aged woman, hands raised, as per usual, and looking very sincere. He touched her; she quivered, but remained standing. He touched her again, saying a few additional words. Still she remained standing. Hinn tried a third time to no avail. He cut his losses at this point and continued down the line.

When he'd finished he returned to the head of the line and began healing the second rank of believers. As before, people dropped like flies…until he reached the same woman, arms upraised, but crying now. Hinn touched her again, but she stood like a rock, almost as if she didn't know she was supposed to fall over. The service ended as Hinn knocked over the remaining faithful and she was left, standing by herself at the front of the stage, hands upraised and sobbing.

As much as I cheered Hinn's failure though, I also pitied the woman for her misguided faith in his sorry ass.

Other Comments by Dogzilla

60. Comment #144858 by MelM on March 16, 2008 at 9:35 pm

Dogzilla,

Good story; thanks. Perhaps she wasn't a good christian; there's always an insane explanation.

Edit: Atheism needs a good cartoonist.

Other Comments by MelM

61. Comment #144865 by Slyer on March 16, 2008 at 10:23 pm

 avatarHere in New Zealand we are expert at fitting as many swear words in a sentence as possible, if we should chose to. ;)

Other Comments by Slyer

62. Comment #144868 by Teratornis on March 16, 2008 at 10:53 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #144658 by Geoff:


Comment #144650 by Teratornis
I was equally afraid of becoming possessed by demons if I were to play with an Ouija board.

Did you do the experiment? Can you be sure you aren't possessed?


So that explains the projectile green vomiting.

Other Comments by Teratornis

63. Comment #144879 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 17, 2008 at 12:30 am


I just can't believe the Shamen guy kept up the charade. Was he hoping that Sanal might die from old age in the mean time?


im afraid its worse than that...he actualy BELIEVES it.

i think he had no doubt in his mind that sanal would die.

you see this rather often in religions with dirrect magic rituals. for instance wicca:

one of the main tennants is the idea that everything happens for a reason, also when you perform a spell it might not happen the way you expected it to, but it will always happen.

now you can probably begin to see the falacy here.
it says "if you try a spell and it didnt work, it realy DID work you just need to look harder to find out how" and this goes with the first tennate that everything happens for a reason, that there is no coincidence and nothing is random. this gives even MORE wiggle room to look for a way it worked.

i imagine, this is a prediction since i dont know about tantra except they invented a rather nice was of doing it, that somewhere in their sutras and such there is a similar contengency whereby they can fool themselves into believing they have super powers.

thing is with things like this...they can be proven to be bullocks just like that guy did...if only the other religions could be done like that. the scientologists claim their thetan opporators have special powers but they deny it in public so such a thing wouldnt work on them.

i think this is very much an evolutive thing, those religions who have things like this which make testable claims...actually get hurt from failing...those who make none, like christianity, can survive a wrong prediction or whatever. so only those who are the most nebulus survive...

shame i kinda like the song and dance and chanting of mantra...they dont do anything...but they are entertaining. and there is no harm in it if you dont take it seriously.

also, i kinda expected some concoction he threw into the fire would make something like mustard gas or something and kill him. or that hed hide a poison dart or something. (though i suppose the autopsy would prove the COD..but the dying on TV would stick out more than the autopsy findings.)

you never know which ones are deluded and which ones are just chalatains. lucky for him he got one that was deluded.

Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai

64. Comment #144888 by GordonYKWong on March 17, 2008 at 1:15 am

 avatarRE:

4. Comment #144554 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

Na. Just to wipe the smug off his face.
He may look smug, but I suspect he is trying not to dislocate his jaw from laughing too hard.

Other Comments by GordonYKWong

65. Comment #144889 by Vadjong on March 17, 2008 at 1:30 am

 avatarThey should let Derren Brown have a go. He'd probably pull it off.

(With Penn & Teller hosting, that should be fun !)

Now who should be the victim ?

Other Comments by Vadjong

66. Comment #144893 by Goldy on March 17, 2008 at 2:23 am

 avatar
Goldy - sorry, I'd forgotten you lived in NZ.
Talking about the use of the f*** word - do you give lessons?

:-)
You know, I have never sworn in front of my parents.
But should you require more lessons, I am only too happy to oblige - though really I don't use it too much :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

67. Comment #144901 by Forti on March 17, 2008 at 2:52 am

 avatarNice idea, but I predict that someone, sooner or later, would pop up with this:

http://www.tracce.it/arch98/NOV98/ingl11/38in.htm

I'm actually curious about the story. If it's so "well-documented", as the author claims, I'd like to learn more about these 'documents'. Is there actually a teeny tiny chance that a leg COULD be grown back as described in this article? (Without any interference of the sky fairies, of course.)

Other Comments by Forti

68. Comment #144916 by Aileen on March 17, 2008 at 3:47 am

Interesting that he tried magic to kill him, If its that powerfull why not convert him,Religious types are just no good at logic

Other Comments by Aileen

69. Comment #144918 by irate_atheist on March 17, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatar61. Comment #144865 by Slyer -
Here in New Zealand we are expert at fitting as many swear words in a sentence as possible, if we should chose to. ;)
Hey, sign me up. I'll happily emigrate to NZ. Only one question, however. Are there enough fucktards for me to swear at?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

70. Comment #144938 by Divineosaur on March 17, 2008 at 4:31 am

 avatarI think I should be cheered by this or, at the least, feel indifferent. However, I find that all I can think is that somehow people will find a way to use this to reinforce their belief in such nonsense. Cognitive dissonance indeed.

Other Comments by Divineosaur

71. Comment #144953 by tieInterceptor on March 17, 2008 at 5:03 am

 avatar
60. Comment #144858 by MelM on March 16, 2008 at 9:35 pm
Edit: Atheism needs a good cartoonist.


not sure why you ask, but we do have a good cartoonist,

check Jesus and Mo, it's the best.

http://www.jesusandmo.net/

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

72. Comment #145039 by Filius Nithardi on March 17, 2008 at 7:51 am

 avatarI am sure Sanal Edamaruku cheated: James Randi cast a skeptical immunity against tantric powers spell on him before the challenge.

Other Comments by Filius Nithardi

73. Comment #145495 by Big T on March 17, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Well, darn, there goes my faith in tantric power. Logicel, your pun about ghee was most excellent! Be proud, be very proud!

Other Comments by Big T

74. Comment #145564 by oshottan on March 17, 2008 at 5:58 pm

Sanal Edamaruku is my hero

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75. Comment #145608 by Szymanowski on March 17, 2008 at 7:27 pm

 avatar100 points for effort to the tantrik.

(-1000000 points for the epic pwnage)


Still, I'm sure there'll be the protest, "It doesn't work when it's filmed for TV".

Other Comments by Szymanowski

76. Comment #145615 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 17, 2008 at 7:38 pm

probably something like "it only works if they believe in it" so because sanal didnt believe in it, it couldnt work..but if he DID...
or they will just say that ONE shamaan wasnt able to, but hold on to the idea that others CAN.

or they will seek some OTHER kind of witchdoctor...

people like a comforting lie to cold truth.

Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai

77. Comment #145658 by Wosret on March 17, 2008 at 11:42 pm

 avatarI hope they argue that it only works if you believe in it. Then anyone with half a brain will think it prudent to become quite skeptical.

Other Comments by Wosret

78. Comment #145842 by Your_Noodly_Master on March 18, 2008 at 8:08 am

FTA: "The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him."

Sanal definitely could have had some fun with this, i.e. don't you wish you knew my god's name?

I'm surprised the tantrik didn't try an "I can't because I don't really want to hurt you" defense. That would seem logically unassailable, and prevent people from using this as evidence against his "black magic"

Other Comments by Your_Noodly_Master

79. Comment #145857 by Ygern on March 18, 2008 at 8:19 am

 avatarFair play to Sanal for going through all this bollocks just to prove a (fairly obvious) point. It may have worked in really primitive times when people actually believed in this sort of stuff.

Oh wait a minute. Er...

Other Comments by Ygern

80. Comment #152370 by prashanth on March 30, 2008 at 8:41 pm

Congratulations to Sanal and that TV channel.

In india , this type of so called "magics of tantra and mantra" are so common that , these "tantrik" robers will rob all that left with the poor people.

Other Comments by prashanth

81. Comment #223257 by DNA on August 1, 2008 at 10:52 pm

 avatarI am rather surprised that for a bunch of people who pride themselves on rational, intellectual and scientific pursuits & investigations, not even one of you can cite credible sources, reliable references or independent websites that confirm that 'Pandit Surinder Sharma' is:

1) A real person.
2) A 'tantrik of top politicians'.
3) A person 'well known from his TV shows'.

One would think that such a famous 'tantrik' would have at least one webpage dedicated in his honor or at least one blogged article making reference to him.

A thorough internet search for 'Pandit Surinder Sharma' (not to be confused with the Hindi poet 'Surinder Sharma') produces results that are exclusively affiliated with Sanal Edamaruku's 'Tantra Challenge'. I cannot find a single independent article about 'Pandit Surinder Sharma' even utilizing Indian search engines.

It appears to me that the entire 'Tantra Challenge' was a set up and publicity stunt for the recently created 'India TV'. Indian Rationalists are well known for this type of theatrics. A similar incident occurred in the GuruBusters Documentary in which a dog was subjected to a bite from a venomous snake and an alleged 'witch doctor' was produced who said he could cure the dog using mantras. The 'witch doctor' failed, instantly became a rationalist and told the crowd they should similarly embrace rationalism. To the educated eye, the entire drama was an unconvincing set up. Nevertheless, to the the uneducated Indian villagers, it was a convincing performance.

Surprising how so many people and so many websites have jumped on this bandwagon. Those of us who are so critical of 'blind belief' should think deeply and reflect about what prompts us to accept stories 'blindly' that enforce our scientific beliefs and mindsets.

If anyone can find independent information about the tantrik 'Pandit Surinder Sharma', please let me know.

Other Comments by DNA

82. Comment #223610 by aarrgghh on August 2, 2008 at 11:03 pm

 avatarso, if sanal had gotten a "real" tantric priest to perform a "real" tantric death ritual, would he be alive today ... ?

Other Comments by aarrgghh

83. Comment #422248 by KRKBAB on October 7, 2009 at 12:22 pm

Comment #223257 by DNA- If the Indian Rationalists engage in staged stunts to get their message out as you say, that wouldn't help their cause at all. Then they just could be seen as Charlatan B competing with Charlatan A.

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