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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 551 - 600 of 9333 |

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551. Comment #152669 by al-rawandi on March 31, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatarJon,



I have an ex-girlfriend who might be interested in those rats.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

552. Comment #152679 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 10:43 am

 avatar
Comment #152109 by MPhil:
Well, we do differ from other animals in a way that our faculties of planning, designing technology and cultural artifacts does lift a very large portion of the selection pressure from us that our immediate ancestors had. Through no change in nature or genome, at least people in first-world countries have overcome some very serious elements of selections pressure - accessibility of food, of shelter, certain otherwise fatal diseases etc.

I actually had a long and interesting discussion of this subject in the forums, and I must disagree with you here. Selective pressures are pressures that increase or reduce the frequency that genes are passed on to the next generation. The populations of first-world countries have changed the selective pressures rather than eliminate them. The populations of first-world countries are under some of the most severe selective pressures in the history of the human race. We have a negative birthrate, have for some time, and appear unlikely to reverse this trend in the foreseeable future. The selective pressures are different nowadays, but one thing is certain in life: no one gets out alive. The population of most western nations is still rising because of immigration. While this immigration is of great benefit to us in terms of an influx of new ideas, expertise, and labour, it is masking the fact that the population of the West (including the new immigrants) is under serious selective pressure. Less people may be dying young of disease etc., but fewer people are having children before they die, and those that do have far less children.

As zetetic points out: Humans, as a product of nature, are categorically incapable of behaving 'unnaturally'.

We cannot 'escape' selection; we can only change the selection process. While we have done so, it is not in our favour, as most people assume.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

553. Comment #152680 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 10:45 am

 avatar
Comment #152669 by al-rawandi:
I have an ex-girlfriend who might be interested in those rats.

Tell ya what, if you send an extra ten grand, I'll ensure that she gets a couple extra visits a day for all eternity.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

554. Comment #152683 by al-rawandi on March 31, 2008 at 10:47 am

 avatarJon,





Give me your pay-pal info.

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555. Comment #152806 by alan baylis on March 31, 2008 at 3:02 pm

460. Comment #151071 by Dr Benway

*I know a university physicist who does research on the sun. He believes the sun has much to do with global warming. He's said to me, "But you can't say these things aloud or they'll destroy you." *

It is with some trepidation that I post this. This is because I'm no scientist. I left school at 15, far too many years ago.

Scientific consensus seems to have converged on global warming being real and the effects being potentially catastrophic. Therefore any sensible hypothesis should be put foreword. There may be a lot more at stake than personal self-esteem. Should not a university physicist be clever enough to couch his ideas in ways that does not cause hostility from the establishment? They would only be ideas after all. Would not this come under "informed speculation"?

Apologies, if this is just naive BS on my part.

However, the oppressive picture of American academic attitudes painted by Dr. Benway is rather disheartening. I hope things are better than this in Britain.

Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

556. Comment #152826 by Skeptigirl on March 31, 2008 at 3:44 pm

562. Comment #152806 by alan baylis on March 31, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Scientific consensus seems to have converged on global warming being real and the effects being potentially catastrophic. Therefore any sensible hypothesis should be put foreword. There may be a lot more at stake than personal self-esteem. Should not a university physicist be clever enough to couch his ideas in ways that does not cause hostility from the establishment? They would only be ideas after all. Would not this come under "informed speculation"?
Apologies, if this is just naive BS on my part.
However, the oppressive picture of American academic attitudes painted by Dr. Benway is rather disheartening. I hope things are better than this in Britain.
Alan.


Trouble is you are making the wrong assumption here that the Ben Stein propaganda movie is actually factual and it isn't. It is a big lie.

It plays off a common stereotype that the scientific community is made up of stodgy old bastards in some stuffy old men's club exerting peer pressure on the brilliant rebellious young thinker who comes along and shows them they were wrong. That's a tired movie plot and while you might need a lot of evidence to change a previous scientific consensus, it is the evidence that convinces scientists. Present decent evidence and you will not be censored and ridiculed as this movie falsely claims.

The last couple ideas that took a while to convince the scientific community that I can think of were plate tectonics back in the early 20th century and a more recent example was the discovery that H-pylori bacteria caused ulcers, not excess stomach acid. Both of those were slow to catch on. But if the evidence is there, old stodgy science guys can't and don't stifle the progress of science. That is a pure propaganda falsehood.

What this movie does is quote people who could not provide convincing evidence claiming that it was their ideas that were not accepted. No, it was their evidence that was not convincing and they are the ones failing to accept that fact.

Other Comments by Skeptigirl

557. Comment #152853 by PlagioClase on March 31, 2008 at 4:29 pm

What can be done about the awful inaccuracies in the curriculum and textbooks that still persist in kids' text books these days?

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558. Comment #153009 by Christopher Davis on March 31, 2008 at 8:59 pm

 avatarQouting craigyk...

"We parted company with him remarking that I could try to help all the oppressed people of the world by convincing everyone there is no god, and he would do it by trying to raise them out of poverty, giving them opportunities, and hope.

I must admit that if my goal really IS to decrease human suffering in this world his approach will probably be more effective than mine. If we really do want to convince people that ID is unlikely, we should give them a framework in which *they* can accept ET."

This sounds like the old adage about lighting a candle instead of cursing the darkness...and I agree. Problem is, I'm not running around trying to convince people there is no God. I'm trying to help the government of a third-world country (yes I know the PC term is 'developing nation') improve the lives of its people. Unfortunately there are numerous obstacles to this process, and all of them are directly related to religion...if not by actual scriptural doctrine then by the abuse of holy authority.

The point I would make to my religious friend if I were you, is that although numerous charitable acts are performed in the name of religion, they could be performed just as easily in the absence of such beliefs. The upside of the end or organized religion is that people could no longer be manipulated into thinking that their immoral actions are justified by God. It would remove one very convenient path that people have towards rationalizing their bad actions. People could then be held individually responsible for their acts be they good or bad.

I consider this better than lighting a candle. The death of organized religion would be like illuminating a walk-in closet using a set of stadium lights.

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559. Comment #153124 by alan baylis on April 1, 2008 at 5:05 am

563. Comment #152826 by Skeptigirl

*Trouble is you are making the wrong assumption here that the Ben Stein propaganda movie is actually factual and it isn't. It is a big lie *

From all the evidence so far, this film is an unmitigated load of rubbish being put out by dishonest people! So, just par for the course by the religious right then, IMO.

My comment, 562 is CLEARLY in response to the disturbing one by dr. Benway
NO 460, concerning academic freedom in the USA.

How you can attribute such ideas to me from what I wrote there has left me completely nonplussed.

Although I may have put it rather clumsily, I was speaking in favor of "informed (intelligent) speculation. I originally cited the treatment of A.Wegener in my post, but it seemed a bit obvious, so I deleted it.

Another example I almost quoted was the "on the back of crystals" idea, which this silly film attempts to lampoon. Yet, isn't this another good example of informed speculation by A.G. Cairns-Smiths. In the same vein Adrian Woolfson deals with similar themes in his fine book "Life without genes", whilst not fearing to include informed speculation in that either! Quite rightly so, IMO.

It would make dull reading if scientists like these kept only to known facts in their books. It is their IDEAS that make US think.


Of course, the difference with IDots is that they cling to their ideas even after these have been conclusively blown from the water.


I didn't put these points my original comment because I feared Dr. Benway would think I was trying to teach my granny how to suck eggs. I was reticent because I know nothing of academic life.

Regards
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

560. Comment #153694 by Christopher Davis on April 1, 2008 at 8:54 pm

 avatarDr. Benway,

I didn't get a chance to thank you yesterday for the support and the photo (took me ten minutes to figure out that the overlayed text wasn't German). We had a last minute schedule change and I had to rush out. Sorry.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

561. Comment #153700 by Dr Benway on April 1, 2008 at 9:21 pm

 avatar
...took me ten minutes to figure out that the overlayed text wasn't German
LOL. Kittehs not spell so gud.



Other Comments by Dr Benway

562. Comment #153710 by dannyhouk on April 1, 2008 at 10:37 pm

(note, I only read page 1 comments and page 12 comments before posting, so no thread continuity in my comment)

Don't all these comments in the forum, by Dawkins, and Stein/Mathis, all illustrate our common human natures, i.e. being hypocritical, self-serving, and extremely defensive of our ideas? The only good point I think Stein raises is "why do people get so defensive of their ideas?"

It's okay for people to attack our ideas, and its okay to be in the wrong. I think the real venom isn't about who was removed from the theater, who is being hypocritical, or who is being misleading, the venom is because people's core identities and reason for living is being attacked, both "religious" and "scientific" types. If anyone took two steps back from this debacle they could see that everyone involved is being defensive, pushy, slanderous, and vengeful. That is, they are using the same tactics stemming from the same motive for self-preservation.

I wonder what the evolutionary need for shame was?

Other Comments by dannyhouk

563. Comment #154014 by Aradan on April 2, 2008 at 11:41 am

There is an obvious flaw in the intelligent design argument that should have stopped Creationists in their tracks a long time ago…if they ever bothered to pause and think about the illogic of their argument.

If life requires an intelligent designer, then logically if follows that whoever or whatever the intelligent designer might be would have also required its own intelligent designer - since such a creative intelligence would necessarily have the attributes of life. Being alive, that intelligent designer would have likewise required another intelligent designer, and so would have that designers' designers', and so on and so forth, ad infinitum. A bit of logic and scrutiny makes it quickly apparent that the intelligent design argument is a self-defeating, circular argument of infinite regress that is ironically, quite unintelligent.

If intelligent design proponents contend that 'their' intelligent designer did not need to be created by another intelligent designer, then neither did life on earth- thus their entire argument smacks headlong into a solid wall of logic and reason that stops it dead in its tracks.

If the intelligent design proponents try a naturalistic approach - say for example that the intelligent designer(s) were aliens (like the Raelians believe) then the intelligent design argument still breaks down into a circular argument of infinite regress. Logically, any alien intelligent designers would have likewise required their own intelligent designers. Then those intelligent designers would have also required designers, and so on and so forth. It runs into the same problem.

Cheers,

Aradan.

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564. Comment #154025 by tomtex on April 2, 2008 at 12:13 pm

I have to object to the term "uniformed goon" Dawkin's anger at Mathis shouldn't be taken out on some poor security guard who just happens to work there. Such statements serve no purpose.

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565. Comment #154228 by MutualDisdain on April 3, 2008 at 12:07 am

I can't believe you have been tricked into promoting this movie much like you were tricked into giving interviews for it.

You should have waited until the obscure movie bombed in theaters and gutter-balled it just before its DVD release.

I can't express how disappointed I am.

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566. Comment #154229 by MutualDisdain on April 3, 2008 at 12:12 am

Also, someone might want to look up the word concise. You have to know the average "non-fan" internet reader is going to barely parse any of your message. You should have written a succinct summary at the beginning of this article to feed the sound-byte whores, and your argument should have been framed out of logic instead of emotion. Honestly, if you just argued the facts without devolving to use ridicule, then I don't think any of Stein's henchmen could stand up to your arguments.

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567. Comment #154232 by MutualDisdain on April 3, 2008 at 12:17 am

Adaran, you are forgetting to address the most simple ID argument: If a designer created all of reality, then he/she/it most likely "exists" outside of the realm of reality. That means that there is no contradiction in omnipotence because, "God doesn't lift things" and that any interaction between God and this world would most likely be the result of an avatar.

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568. Comment #154243 by Christopher Davis on April 3, 2008 at 1:26 am

 avatarMutualDisdain,

I'm pretty sure Professor Dawkins knows the meaning of the word concise. He's also aware that his readers have the attention span required to complete an article that is more than three paragraphs. As for the soundbites, scientists like to explain their viewpoints in depth...something the supporters of Intelligent Design seem unable to do.

Oh wait, you did explain it! God did it! There I go hanging out in reality again.

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569. Comment #154450 by n8mobiles on April 3, 2008 at 9:36 am

Seriously, are you ten years old? Sounds like you got pushed over on the playground, and are trying to make it look like you "meant to do that!" Your blow-hard self important ego is in over drive here. No compassion, no interest in winning with intelect, your argument is "He pushed my friend, and brought a bigger guy!!" WAAAAA. This is not helping the Athiest cause, if you can't take the heat, get out of the profession. Does the film take a position against athiesm? Yes, Mr. Stien believes in God. Does your book take a position against Religion and God? Yes, you don't believe in God. But Athiests all take a hit when someone like you is SUPPOSED to be intelligent and reply with science, and above the fray, and instead cry "no fair!" when it was their own EGO that lead them into being in this movie. You fell for it hook, line and sinker. Now get over yourself and come up with a better response with your BRAIN. Thanks for NOT being the voice of Athiesm in the future.

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570. Comment #154464 by Steve Zara on April 3, 2008 at 10:12 am

 avatarComment #154450 by n8mobiles
This is not helping the Athiest cause, if you can't take the heat, get out of the profession.


There is an Athiest[sic] profession? What is the going rate for non-belief?

But Athiests all take a hit when someone like you is SUPPOSED to be intelligent and reply with science, and above the fray, and instead cry "no fair!" when it was their own EGO that lead them into being in this movie.


I do suggest you actually read the article and get some context. No matter what the issue of egos, the point was that they were not told they were going to be in this movie. They were deceived.

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571. Comment #154471 by al-rawandi on April 3, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarn8mobiles,




Do you think you could bestir yourself to learn to spell the word Atheist before you come here and debate people about Atheism. Is it such an insurmountable intellectual hurdle to achieve this? Is it too much to ask?

Then we can discuss your hubristic (yet quite pedestrian) post. I thnik Steve Zara is right. Perhaps you should read the article.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did read the article, and were simply to stupid to understand.

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572. Comment #154476 by epeeist on April 3, 2008 at 10:33 am

 avatarComment #154464 by Steve Zara
They were deceived.
No, they were lied to. Deceived is far too nice a word.

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573. Comment #154481 by Diacanu on April 3, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatarn8mobiles-


Seriously, are you ten years old?


Typing your own self recriminating inner monologue were you?

Other Comments by Diacanu

574. Comment #154506 by NoNeedToLie on April 3, 2008 at 11:35 am

I have one comment to add to your interesting article-There has NEVER been nor will there EVER be a reason to lie for Jesus.

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575. Comment #154508 by al-rawandi on April 3, 2008 at 11:39 am

 avatarNoNeedToLie,



What the hell does that mean?


There is a reason... it is all bullshit and it has to be lied about to maintain the soft fluffy fairytale.

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576. Comment #154512 by Quetzalcoatl on April 3, 2008 at 11:43 am

 avatarNoNeedToLie-

I have one comment to add to your interesting article-There has NEVER been nor will there EVER be a reason to lie for Jesus


Then why do so many Christians do it?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

577. Comment #154523 by Geoff on April 3, 2008 at 11:51 am

 avatarIs April "troll season"?

No need to lie: "Truth? You can't handle the truth!"

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578. Comment #154526 by Steve Zara on April 3, 2008 at 11:55 am

 avatarComment #154508 by al-rawandi
There is a reason... it is all bullshit and it has to be lied about to maintain the soft fluffy fairytale.


The biggest lie is to oneself. I can remember it. It doesn't feel quite like a lie. Metally it's a bit like one of those cartoon characters that runs off a cliff, but only falls when they look down and see if they are in the air. I kind of knew my beliefs weren't supported by anything, but I did my best not to look down.

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579. Comment #154532 by al-rawandi on April 3, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatarSteve,



It got unbearable. I remember it well, I was studying logic, and applying rationalism to all that was around me... I took me a while to get the courage to turn that on myself. But once I did, I felt pretty free.

That compartmentalisation is like dragging a huge lead weight around. It was like a real weight.

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580. Comment #154533 by The Krell on April 3, 2008 at 12:03 pm

The comment by RobDinsmore, although meant to be humourous, is misleading. Evolution is evolution. Darwin's name is linked to it only in so far as his studies are the most plausable explanation of its operation. Therefore, he is not responsible for Hitler anymore than Sigmund Freud is responsible everybody's psychological problems.

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581. Comment #154534 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 3, 2008 at 12:06 pm

 avatarNice studies on self-deception as an evolutionary advantage. I'm just off to find the couple I've read.

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583. Comment #154932 by brother john on April 4, 2008 at 2:14 am

Gordon Bennett!!!
With "friends" like Matthis & Co - who needs enemies?

I was going to sign off as "Amazed Christian" - but having observed humanity - Christian or otherwise (which includes atheist I have to add)for some seven decades ( I presume I was observing and observant even in my first year of life - though I didn't say much)
- nothing amazes me.

It just leaves me with a question: How on earth does a decent human being cope with with the depravity or idiocy humans are capable of?"

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584. Comment #154953 by hungarianelephant on April 4, 2008 at 3:02 am

 avatarHello brother john. Haven't seen you here for a while.

It just leaves me with a question: How on earth does a decent human being cope with with the depravity or idiocy humans are capable of?"

Personally, I find ignoring it and pretending it isn't there quite effective. But you've probably seen more of it than us, or at least heard it in the confessional. What do you do?

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585. Comment #155758 by Vulcan on April 5, 2008 at 3:51 pm

Socrates,

You post two contradictory statements side by side and still can't see the contradiction?
-------------------------------------------------
"Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen" and that "design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity"
-------------------------------------------------
Interesting the delusions that "Faith" in something can allow us to have.

Can anyone prove a Universal Negative who is not YHWH? My understanding of Logic is that you can not, for in order to KNOW that something doesn't exist anywhere or anywhen you would have to be everywhere and everywhen simultaniously which is one of the attributes of YHWH. Based on Logic, I submit that Athiesm is a "RELIGION" that relies on an adherance to "BLIND FAITH."

Here's hoping for your sake that you are right,
Vulcan

Other Comments by Vulcan

586. Comment #155783 by sdbranum on April 5, 2008 at 7:13 pm

So much vitriol and hate...

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587. Comment #155785 by Dr Benway on April 5, 2008 at 7:56 pm

 avatarSo much trollin' of late...

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588. Comment #155786 by Diacanu on April 5, 2008 at 7:57 pm

 avatarsdbranum-


So much vitriol and hate...


...in "Expelled"?

Well, yeah, I mean, it exploits the frigging holocaust in the name of spiteful bare knuckle politics, it doesn't get much nastier than that.

Other Comments by Diacanu

589. Comment #155790 by eccles on April 5, 2008 at 8:18 pm

 avatarI have not read all posts here, but I would like to tell you that I have a picture of Pope Ratslinger on which I put the caption:

LIAR FOR JESUS

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590. Comment #155799 by sdbranum on April 5, 2008 at 10:33 pm

Double Bass Atheist,

I noted your post where you stated, "Inventing data, misrepresenting information, deceit and deception, are common place..."


Do you mean like this?


"...and they are even paying "Christian" schools per kid that they send to the theaters"

By the way, your fawning over the Professor, "(I know he wants us to call him just Richard now, but old habits and respect keep getting in the way)", was a bit over the top, don't you think? That's right! The Professor does all your thinking for you. Maybe I should put this in your native language. Baaaaa, baaaaaa, baaaaaa.

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591. Comment #155801 by sdbranum on April 5, 2008 at 10:43 pm

Diacanu, the fact that you asked is evidence you saw the same thing in all your buddies' posts that I saw. Thanks for validating my observation, as I made the statement as I did for this very purpose. You would have lied and said it wasn't true if I had stated exactly to what I was referring, but you fell for the trap and now can't pull that one. Again, thanks for proving my point, and now you can address the matter of hypocrisy that arises as a direct result from that validation. Or maybe you'll just avoid the debate, the same way "The Professor" has avoided debating these "stupid, ignorant or insane" people that waxed his butt in debate after debate, so much so that he decided to take his ball and go home, i.e. to here on this blog, where he can preach to his faithful following. Yes, he is the leader of YOUR religion, no matter how much you try to deny it. Whenever faced with information that goes against your closely held beliefs, you all respond the same way as a typical militant Muslim would if someone were to impugn Mohammed, no difference at all. What is amazing though is the absolute blindness required not to see that for yourselves.

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592. Comment #155845 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 4:26 am

 avatarSdbranum-

Your comments demonstrate woeful misunderstanding which I must assume means that either you have not bothered to take the time to read around this site, or you have and you are choosing to misrepresent what you have seen here.

I must congratulate you on your originality, however. We've certainly never had a believer come onto this site before, accusing us of being sheep, followers of Dawkins, believers in a religion. This is something that I have never heard before. Oh, wait. I'm being sarcastic.

Accusations that we are followers of a religion fall down when you take two seconds to examine them. You are essentially claiming that we are fundamentalist believers in "No-God". All praise No-God. The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.

These accusations that you make are more telling about your own mindset. You are so used to associating people who agree with each other with religion that you are unable to see anything else. This is why I think that you have not looked around the site. If you had, you would have encountered vehement debates on many threads. But why let the truth get in the way of your comforting presuppositions?

Oh, and I'd be very interested if you'd provide some links for these debates where "The Professor" debated people who "waxed his butt". Whatever that means.

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593. Comment #155847 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 4:36 am

 avatarI noticed Quetz's post, so came back to this thread and saw this:

Comment #155758 by Vulcan
Can anyone prove a Universal Negative who is not YHWH? My understanding of Logic is that you can not, for in order to KNOW that something doesn't exist anywhere or anywhen you would have to be everywhere and everywhen simultaniously which is one of the attributes of YHWH. Based on Logic, I submit that Athiesm is a "RELIGION" that relies on an adherance to "BLIND FAITH."


I propose to you, Vulcan, my YHWH 2.0 theory. It is just a bit simpler than yours. The theory goes like this: YHWH 2.0 is everywhere and everywhen, except for just a little area about the size of a teapot somewhere around Saturn, last tuesday at tea-time.

My theory involves just a teensy bit less complexity than your (as there is less universal and eternal mind). So, you need to disprove my theory first before proceeding to yours. I await your logical arguments.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

594. Comment #155849 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 4:41 am

 avatarI noticed Steve's post, and I found one of Vulcan's points interesting:

My understanding of Logic is that you can not, for in order to KNOW that something doesn't exist anywhere or anywhen you would have to be everywhere and everywhen simultaniously which is one of the attributes of YHWH


I would respond by saying that according to Logic, for you to KNOW that YHWH exists everywhere and everywhen simultaneously, you would have to be everywhere and everywhen simultaneously AND be able to detect YHWH.

Vulcan, perhaps you can explain how you can prove that YHWH is everywhere and everywhen, taking into account what I have said above. I look forward to your response.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

595. Comment #155867 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 7:12 am

 avatar
Yes, he is the leader of YOUR religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.


Only a one word reply needed here: WANKER!

Other Comments by BillySands

596. Comment #155881 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 8:04 am

And yet you needed eight. Plus a quote. Baaaaa.

Other Comments by sdbranum

597. Comment #155883 by Corylus on April 6, 2008 at 8:32 am

 avatarChild.

Other Comments by Corylus

598. Comment #155885 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 8:36 am

 avatar
And yet you needed eight. Plus a quote. Baaaaa.


I guess intelligence is not something you are familiar with. Only the last word was a response to you, it wasn't a quote. Still, I'm not surprised, because from the retarded nature of your comments, your brain obviously congealed on a certain part of the dead jesus as he inserted it into your empty cranium.

Look at me, I'm a theist, I cant even think up original insults, my priest told me what to say. (Well maybe it was the voices in your head from your invisible zombie delusion)


Hear the one about the theist who had a thought of his own?

No? Me neither!

Come back when you can at least come up with original insults

Other Comments by BillySands

599. Comment #155892 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 8:51 am

 avatar
Child

Absolutely. I wonder what part or a retard jerk bag saying baaa (his own native language) is supposed to justify belief in an invisible, mute, odorless used celestial jam rag?

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600. Comment #155911 by Christopher Davis on April 6, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatarsdbranum and Vulcan,

Your arguments are specious. Just because you take something on faith, doesn't mean you are engaging in some form of religious worship. If your best buddy tells you that he has two tickets for Sunday's game and asks you if you would like to go, when you say yes and start making plans to go, is your buddy now your diety? Why not? You've placed faith in him haven't you? How do you know that he actually has the tickets? How do you know he won't change his mind at the last minute and decide to take someone else? Probably because you trust him. Probably because his word has proved reliable in the past.

Do you guys see where I'm going? You both conflate common everyday trust with religious-style faith.

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