




















Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
602. Comment #155960 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 12:32 pm
603. Comment #155966 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I think many of the readers and posters here, me included, would appreciate it if you said something of substance rather than demonstrating your ability to swap insultsSure you would. That's why anytime anyone posts a comment with which you disagree, the first replies are insults. That is why your cult leader dismisses anyone who believes differently as "stupid, ignorant or insane". That is why the general tone of these posts, from the very start, were filled with venom and vitriol towards those who believe differently than you. Of course! Why didn't I see that from the start? Intelligent debate from one who actually is not a member of your mutual masterbation society is welcomed, desired and actually encouraged.
Accusations that we are followers of a religion fall down when you take two seconds to examine them. You are essentially claiming that we are fundamentalist believers in "No-God". All praise No-God. The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.
Religion has been defined in a wide variety of ways. Most definitions attempt to find a balance somewhere between overly sharp definition and meaningless generalities. Some sources have tried to use formalistic, doctrinal definitions while others have emphasized experiential, emotive, intuitive, valuational and ethical factors. Definitions mostly include:
a notion of the transcendent or numinous, often, but not always, in the form of theism
a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality (ethos) and virtue (arete)
a set of myths or sacred truths held in reverence or believed by adherents
Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments."[6] According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions.
Other religious scholars have put forward a definition of religion that avoids the reductionism of the various sociological and psychological disciplines that reduce religion to its component factors. Religion may be defined as the presence of a belief in the sacred or the holy. For example Rudolf Otto's "The Idea of the Holy," formulated in 1917, defines the essence of religious awareness as awe, a unique blend of fear and fascination before the divine. Friedrich Schleiermacher in the late 18th century defined religion as a "feeling of absolute dependence."
The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.You believe that strongly, do you?
604. Comment #155969 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Well, let's see. Did you mean to say, "I guess intelligence is not something with which you are familiar"? If so, it appears I've a bit more familiarity with that concept than you.
but that's just me, a stupid, ignorant or insane ID'er, which is in my mind much to be preferred over being elitist, who so uninformed about what his opponent actually believes, that he must set up strawmen arguments in order produce some semblance of successfully engaging in debate.
Yeah, that's effective! You go bro! Show 'em all how familiar you are with intelligence. Rah! Rah! Baaaaa!
Okay, if you say so, but I thought you were an atheist, though I wholeheartedly agree your attempt was amateurish at best.
I already saw where one sycophant stated he would prefer to be addressed as Richard, but that was probably meant only for the faithful, and as I have just recently entered your sanctuary, such familiarity might seem a bit inappropriate coming from me.
You have made my point better than any response from me could ever hope to accomplish.
You have made my point better than any response from me could ever hope to accomplish.
605. Comment #155970 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm
a notion of the transcendent or numinous
a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality
According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions.
You beleive that strongly, do you?
606. Comment #155971 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 12:56 pm
That's why anytime anyone posts a comment with which you disagree, the first replies are insults.
Since I am expecting all here to blindly say, "That's absurd", I'll follow up with a sarcastic version that makes the same point.
607. Comment #155975 by the great teapot on April 6, 2008 at 1:01 pm
An definition on line?608. Comment #155979 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 1:02 pm
609. Comment #155982 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Yes, he is the leader of YOUR religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.
610. Comment #155986 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:09 pm
A wonderful example of how some theists divert discussion when they aren't capable of defending their positions.And such is never found among the posts of your fellow believers, right? Before responding, it might be advisable to review some of those posts with a slightly critical eye. Also, have you not noticed Dawkins being excused for his faux pax with the assertion that since they started it, so it was proper to respond in kind? So its okay for people of your faith to insult and slam those who disagree, and it is even okay for your faith's own leader to dismiss extremely intelligent individuals as "stupid, ignorant or insane", simply because they espouse a different view, but it is not okay for me to respond to insult with insult, to be dismissive as they have been dismissive. If the atmosphere of this blog was such that one could actually see people debating civilly, and not one where posters are falling all over themselves to flatter Dawkins, and fawning over him to the point that even readers feel embarrassment for him, then you would encounter a whole host of serious debaters presenting some very challenging ideas for your ponderance. Perhaps there are a few that actually could civilly debate, but you couldn't do it on this forum due to the others who would throw out one line misrepresentations of what ID enthusiasts believe, then proceed to trash argument the person or persons never made nor intended. Among bo9th Christians and Atheists, there are those who believe what they believe because that is what they have always been told, or they have placed their trust in someone they believe to have performed rigorous research and are willing to accept the assertion made by them without criticism, but there are also those who have fully investigated why they believe what they believe, and no doubt on both sides of the debate. I believe that I am one such individual, and I also believe most that post here couldn't effectively defend their own belief system in one on one situation, so they respond like an enraged mob, hence the reference to them being sheep. I have no illusion that there are some among you that could present a serious challenge requiring me to do some very thorough research before I could respond, and if I ever encountered such a statement, I would not be offended. In fact, I would find it refreshing, since I have not had anyone present me with some challenge of any significance that could not be easily answered from being confronted with the same in the past. On the other hand, there are some very serious gaps, weaknesses and outright flaws in Evolutionary Theory, for which I have never received a satisfactory answer. There are also many more that I have with regard to Atheism in general, which have never been satisfactorily answered. I would actually enjoy reading a challenging response, but I doubt that I would find it here, and I have no doubt that when I decide enough of this childishness and leave, there will be those posting comments such as, "he couldn't provide a rational response, so he left". Yep. That'll be the reason. Baaaaaa.
611. Comment #155990 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 1:13 pm
612. Comment #155991 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Nope, and it doesn't take much intelligence to use a word processing programme. Did a grown up or your carer show you?Hey come on Billy, give the man a chance.
613. Comment #155992 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm
What are the tenets of my so-called religion?
Someone neglected to mail me the pamphlet.
614. Comment #155994 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Also, have you not noticed Dawkins being excused for his faux pax with the assertion that since they started it, so it was proper to respond in kind?
615. Comment #155996 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:19 pm
what ID enthusiasts believe, then proceed to trash argument the person or persons never made nor intended. Among bo9th Christians and Atheists, there are those who believe what they believe because that is what they have always been told, or they have placed their trust in someone they believe to have performed rigorous researchDear oh dear, ID and rigorous research in the same paragraph.
616. Comment #155999 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:23 pm
Is this another to add to Al-Rawandi's list, i.e. death by oxymoron?
617. Comment #156000 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:25 pm
You mean this? http://contenderministries.org/humanism/manifesto1.php
Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative
618. Comment #156002 by Geraint on April 6, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative...
619. Comment #156004 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Your comments demonstrate woeful misunderstanding which I must assume means that either you have not bothered to take the time to read around this site, or you have and you are choosing to misrepresent what you have seen here.For some reason I doubt you have any feeling of "woe", but hey, it's a big word, and it makes you look intelligent. Right?
I must congratulate you on your originality, however. We've certainly never had a believer come onto this site before, accusing us of being sheep, followers of Dawkins, believers in a religion. This is something that I have never heard before. Oh, wait. I'm being sarcastic.Your insult attempt would've been more effective if you didn't feel the need to explain yourself. Just a pointer for future reference… Try leaving off the explanation next time. Your buddies will still get it (maybe), and you'll add the extra slam of insinuating your polished prose is over the head of your opponent.
Accusations that we are followers of a religion fall down when you take two seconds to examine them. You are essentially claiming that we are fundamentalist believers in "No-God". All praise No-God. The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.Thank you for attempting to restate my words for me, but since I know what I meant, and since you obviously did not, perhaps you'd do better to attack the words as written. Strawmen, which are set up for the purpose of easily being knocked down, do nothing but show your inability to address the statement as it stood. It feeds the faithful, I'll grant you that, but they will always be easily led by whatever cult figure pounces on the scene next, so they are that important anyway. I would hope you are after more intelligent followers than that, but maybe you value each and every sycophant, so maybe you have your own reasons for throwing out such claptrap.
These accusations that you make are more telling about your own mindset. You are so used to associating people who agree with each other with religion that you are unable to see anything else. This is why I think that you have not looked around the site. If you had, you would have encountered vehement debates on many threads. But why let the truth get in the way of your comforting presuppositions?
Oh, and I'd be very interested if you'd provide some links for these debates where "The Professor" debated people who "waxed his butt". Whatever that means.I truly don't believe you would really be interested, but here's a test. Have you sent off a request to Lord Dawkins to enlighten you why he no longer debates such matters in a controlled public forum where more than his faithful are in the audience? No? Didn't think so. That your words stating you'd be "very interested" constitute a poorly concealed lie - q.e.d.
I notice in addition that you have not responded to my comment…How could I respond to such effective debate. My! You are certainly world class! There now. Is that better? Is your ego properly massaged now? Good, since unlike you, I do not devote my life to your church, its leaders and its doctrine, and since that is the case, I don't hang onto every word posted on this site to the exclusion of all other interests. But I sympathize with you somewhat. It must be nearly unbearable to have no friends other than those you "meet" on the Internet.
620. Comment #156006 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm
Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative, which is why some atheists often refer to themselves as Humanists. There are surely others though.Humanist Manifesto followers are all splitters.
621. Comment #156008 by Corylus on April 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm
622. Comment #156009 by Mark Smith on April 6, 2008 at 1:31 pm
sdbranum623. Comment #156010 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:33 pm
StrawmenAre all theist apologists fucking farmers? I'm so tired of seeing that word.
624. Comment #156011 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:36 pm
I think the assumption that he came here to take part in constructive debate. Quarrel dialogue, yes. Persuasion or critical dialogue, obviously not from his first post.
You replied to my suggestion that you post something substantive by lumping me in with a highly generalised and negatively stereotyped 'you' and by making entirely unwarranted assumptions about me. But the approach you are taking will not lead to constructive debate.
625. Comment #156012 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:39 pm
re: post 622626. Comment #156014 by Galactor on April 6, 2008 at 1:40 pm
627. Comment #156016 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 1:44 pm
For some reason I doubt you have any feeling of "woe", but hey, it's a big word, and it makes you look intelligent. Right?
I truly don't believe you would really be interested, but here's a test. Have you sent off a request to Lord Dawkins to enlighten you why he no longer debates such matters in a controlled public forum where more than his faithful are in the audience? No? Didn't think so. That your words stating you'd be "very interested" constitute a poorly concealed lie - q.e.d.
How could I respond to such effective debate. My! You are certainly world class! There now. Is that better? Is your ego properly massaged now?
It must be nearly unbearable to have no friends other than those you "meet" on the Internet.
628. Comment #156017 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:45 pm
I've got life to get on with now.Time of death 20:46 UTC, reason "I have to rush".
629. Comment #156019 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:50 pm
sdbranumI've got life to get on with now.Have you all taken a "How to post on the Dawkins site" course? I really am staggered by the number of theists who post in the same pattern, which is to:
630. Comment #156021 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:53 pm
I apologize, but contrary to an assertion otherwise, I did indeed read many posts on this particular subject, including Dawkins' rant, which had to be read several times to understand, and after the 200th or so post, I admit I was more than ready to sling a few insults back towards the posters in general. That is probably as close to an apology I am likely to post, and it is specifically directed to those such as yourself. I've got life to get on with now.
631. Comment #156023 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 1:57 pm
632. Comment #156025 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:59 pm
If so you're pretty hot. If not, then go fuck off.
633. Comment #156027 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 2:10 pm
Hey, not everyone here is straight.
634. Comment #156029 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 2:19 pm
1) Hitler was an Atheist
2) Stalin and Mao were Atheists
3) Can't disprove God
4) Bible is metaphorical where it contradicts science.
5) That is not "my God".
6) Atheism is a belief too.
7) Evolution is a theory
8) Second Law of Thermodynamics contradicts evolution.
9) Pascal's Wager
10) I am busy and have to leave.
- accuse us all of being "Dawkins followers"
- make some basic arguments which are refuted
- invite some insult
- complain about the insult, but never respond to the reasoned argument.
- but most importantly, always, always leave by saying that you have more important things to be doing. Always indicate that you have a life beyond this site.
635. Comment #156032 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Yes, I know that. No offense meant to anyone else but sdbranum.
636. Comment #156042 by steveroot on April 6, 2008 at 2:46 pm
607. Comment #155947 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Well, let's see. Did you mean to say, "I guess intelligence is not something with which you are familiar"? If so, it appears I've a bit more familiarity with that concept than you.
639. Comment #156023 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 1:57 pm
If so you're pretty hot. If not, then go fuck off.
637. Comment #156052 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm
What did I miss?The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.
You believe that strongly, do you?
638. Comment #156053 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:00 pm
sdbranum-
Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative...
Geraint
Never heard of it.
sdbranum-
Though it depends upon the various sects...
639. Comment #156058 by Bonzai on April 6, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Hey, not everyone here is straight.
640. Comment #156061 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Peacebeaponme-
Diacanu asked you what his religious tenets were,
641. Comment #156062 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 3:10 pm
As it is, I don't believe, I know :-)
642. Comment #156064 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:21 pm
643. Comment #156074 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Vadjong, we'll be accused of being Know-it-alls, a most dangerous athiest sect!644. Comment #156075 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Atheist 1- The bible is a streaming pile of horseshit!!
Atheist 2- No, it's a GLISTENING pile of BULLshit!!!
645. Comment #156080 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 4:29 pm
646. Comment #156083 by fstaheli on April 6, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I watched the "Expelled" trailer, and I am not initially much impressed. The evidence for evolution and natural selection is very convincing. It appears that Mark Mathis and his bunch are attempting to short circuit the process by dismissing science out of hand.647. Comment #156088 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm
I believe in God,
648. Comment #156089 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm
Hello fstaheli!I believe in God, that he created this earth
649. Comment #156090 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 5:00 pm
650. Comment #156092 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Good point. Why did God not make people as they are now then? Why all the waiting? The evolving, the finding stuff out....
601. Comment #155955 by Mark Smith on April 6, 2008 at 12:20 pm
sdbranumI think many of the readers and posters here, me included, would appreciate it if you said something of substance rather than demonstrating your ability to swap insults.
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