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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 601 - 650 of 9336 |

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601. Comment #155955 by Mark Smith on April 6, 2008 at 12:20 pm

sdbranum
I think many of the readers and posters here, me included, would appreciate it if you said something of substance rather than demonstrating your ability to swap insults.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

602. Comment #155960 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avataral-rawandi, please give us a synopsis by bullet points of sdbranum's upcoming comments.
I need to get on with my new catechesis: the OxBo of MSW.

Other Comments by Vadjong

603. Comment #155966 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 12:44 pm

I think many of the readers and posters here, me included, would appreciate it if you said something of substance rather than demonstrating your ability to swap insults
Sure you would. That's why anytime anyone posts a comment with which you disagree, the first replies are insults. That is why your cult leader dismisses anyone who believes differently as "stupid, ignorant or insane". That is why the general tone of these posts, from the very start, were filled with venom and vitriol towards those who believe differently than you. Of course! Why didn't I see that from the start? Intelligent debate from one who actually is not a member of your mutual masterbation society is welcomed, desired and actually encouraged.

Okay. Since I took more than two seconds to actually look up the definition of religion, here's one for you.
Accusations that we are followers of a religion fall down when you take two seconds to examine them. You are essentially claiming that we are fundamentalist believers in "No-God". All praise No-God. The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.

An definition found online, which is more than sufficient to point out the falacy of the above argument is as follows.
Religion has been defined in a wide variety of ways. Most definitions attempt to find a balance somewhere between overly sharp definition and meaningless generalities. Some sources have tried to use formalistic, doctrinal definitions while others have emphasized experiential, emotive, intuitive, valuational and ethical factors. Definitions mostly include:

a notion of the transcendent or numinous, often, but not always, in the form of theism
a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality (ethos) and virtue (arete)
a set of myths or sacred truths held in reverence or believed by adherents
Sociologists and anthropologists tend to see religion as an abstract set of ideas, values, or experiences developed as part of a cultural matrix. For example, in Lindbeck's Nature of Doctrine, religion does not refer to belief in "God" or a transcendent Absolute. Instead, Lindbeck defines religion as, "a kind of cultural and/or linguistic framework or medium that shapes the entirety of life and thought… it is similar to an idiom that makes possible the description of realities, the formulation of beliefs, and the experiencing of inner attitudes, feelings, and sentiments."[6] According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions.

Other religious scholars have put forward a definition of religion that avoids the reductionism of the various sociological and psychological disciplines that reduce religion to its component factors. Religion may be defined as the presence of a belief in the sacred or the holy. For example Rudolf Otto's "The Idea of the Holy," formulated in 1917, defines the essence of religious awareness as awe, a unique blend of fear and fascination before the divine. Friedrich Schleiermacher in the late 18th century defined religion as a "feeling of absolute dependence."


Since I am expecting all here to blindly say, "That's absurd", I'll follow up with a sarcastic version that makes the same point.
The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.
You believe that strongly, do you?

Other Comments by sdbranum

604. Comment #155969 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm

 avatar
Well, let's see. Did you mean to say, "I guess intelligence is not something with which you are familiar"? If so, it appears I've a bit more familiarity with that concept than you.


Nope, and it doesn't take much intelligence to use a word processing programme. Did a grown up or your carer show you?

but that's just me, a stupid, ignorant or insane ID'er, which is in my mind much to be preferred over being elitist, who so uninformed about what his opponent actually believes, that he must set up strawmen arguments in order produce some semblance of successfully engaging in debate.


Interesting, you are paranoid as well as a spacktard. Had you the mental processing capacity of a hairy puss-filled genital wart, you would realise I did not set up a strawman about what you believe. I just called you a wanker for your comments about atheism being a religion.

weird you think Baaa is a debate. Were you expecting a reply like Mooo?

Now I know you are an IDer. However, I prefer the term IDiot. Go on then, tell us why chromosome 2 is evidence of design - and why you sound like a human urinal when you type.

Yeah, that's effective! You go bro! Show 'em all how familiar you are with intelligence. Rah! Rah! Baaaaa!


Sorry, I dont speak virgin mary shagging retard - but I think you said you need you change your nappy (diaper).

Okay, if you say so, but I thought you were an atheist, though I wholeheartedly agree your attempt was amateurish at best.


Let me see Baaaaa! I think you have some shit on your tail - oh wait, its coming out your mouth - have you considered shaving your arse and teaching it to speak? It would make more sense?

I already saw where one sycophant stated he would prefer to be addressed as Richard, but that was probably meant only for the faithful, and as I have just recently entered your sanctuary, such familiarity might seem a bit inappropriate coming from me.


It this some sort of joke that only makes sense to twats? Oh, I get it, you think that being a tosser substitutes for not being able to provide any evidence for your case. That's quite sad - and the burden of proof lies with you too. Such love comming from you here, better watch you dont try and give me a tonguie - we've only just met.


You have made my point better than any response from me could ever hope to accomplish.


What that you are a moron?

You have made my point better than any response from me could ever hope to accomplish.


Awww thats sweet, the poor little IDiot still doesn't get the subject of the comment.

I wont be replying to you from now on unless you can answer the chromoseme 2 question - remember to use that unintelligent spell checker now - i'm happy enough with touch typing because I can actually think.

By the way, you sound quite nasty - do you use that tongue on Jesus?

PS Prick tits - who gives a fuck about you trying to label atheism a religion. Show me a human and a dinosaur fossilised together - in situ and I will abandon evolution - What will it take for you to abandon your homophobic invisible baby killer?

Other Comments by BillySands

605. Comment #155970 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 12:55 pm

 avatarSdbranum-

firstly- it would be easier when you quote people you mention who you are quoting. That way people know who you're talking to.

Now, onto your post:

You seem not to understand that atheism is merely an absence of belief, it has no creed, rules or tenets. But I'll play along for now.

a notion of the transcendent or numinous


Nope, nothing like that.

a cultural or behavioural aspect of ritual, liturgy and organized worship, often involving a priesthood, and societal norms of morality


Again, no. No organised worship involved, your sarcastic comments aside.

According to this definition, religion refers to one's primary worldview and how this dictates one's thoughts and actions.


And again no. I do not define myself by my atheism. It is not who I am, a filter through which I view the world. It does not dictate my actions.

You beleive that strongly, do you?


I'm afraid this doesn't make your point. I don't believe it. I think it. The difference, Sdbranum, makes all the difference. Atheism and religion are not comparable.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

606. Comment #155971 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 12:56 pm

 avatarComment #155966 by sdbranum
That's why anytime anyone posts a comment with which you disagree, the first replies are insults.


Oh for goodness sake, grow up. This is the internet. Things have been like this on unmoderated forums since the early 90s. Just ignore the insults. If you can't, turn off your computer and get a life some other way.

Since I am expecting all here to blindly say, "That's absurd", I'll follow up with a sarcastic version that makes the same point.


That is a pretty decent summary of religious belief.

Perhaps we could apply it to your non-belief in Blind Io, the chief god of the Discworld.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

607. Comment #155975 by the great teapot on April 6, 2008 at 1:01 pm

An definition on line?
surely A definition.

Other Comments by the great teapot

608. Comment #155979 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 1:02 pm

 avatarStill laughing at Baaa. Is that the strongest argument he can produce? If this muppet was genuinely here to discuss, he would be a bit more respectful.

Other Comments by BillySands

609. Comment #155982 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 1:04 pm

 avatarsdbrandum-


Yes, he is the leader of YOUR religion, no matter how much you try to deny it.


1.) What are the tenets of my so-called religion?
Someone neglected to mail me the pamphlet.

2.) I have no leader, for I neither lead nor follow.
I merely make use of this message board, and enjoy some of the articles I read here.

Other Comments by Diacanu

610. Comment #155986 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:09 pm

A wonderful example of how some theists divert discussion when they aren't capable of defending their positions.
And such is never found among the posts of your fellow believers, right? Before responding, it might be advisable to review some of those posts with a slightly critical eye. Also, have you not noticed Dawkins being excused for his faux pax with the assertion that since they started it, so it was proper to respond in kind? So its okay for people of your faith to insult and slam those who disagree, and it is even okay for your faith's own leader to dismiss extremely intelligent individuals as "stupid, ignorant or insane", simply because they espouse a different view, but it is not okay for me to respond to insult with insult, to be dismissive as they have been dismissive. If the atmosphere of this blog was such that one could actually see people debating civilly, and not one where posters are falling all over themselves to flatter Dawkins, and fawning over him to the point that even readers feel embarrassment for him, then you would encounter a whole host of serious debaters presenting some very challenging ideas for your ponderance. Perhaps there are a few that actually could civilly debate, but you couldn't do it on this forum due to the others who would throw out one line misrepresentations of what ID enthusiasts believe, then proceed to trash argument the person or persons never made nor intended. Among bo9th Christians and Atheists, there are those who believe what they believe because that is what they have always been told, or they have placed their trust in someone they believe to have performed rigorous research and are willing to accept the assertion made by them without criticism, but there are also those who have fully investigated why they believe what they believe, and no doubt on both sides of the debate. I believe that I am one such individual, and I also believe most that post here couldn't effectively defend their own belief system in one on one situation, so they respond like an enraged mob, hence the reference to them being sheep. I have no illusion that there are some among you that could present a serious challenge requiring me to do some very thorough research before I could respond, and if I ever encountered such a statement, I would not be offended. In fact, I would find it refreshing, since I have not had anyone present me with some challenge of any significance that could not be easily answered from being confronted with the same in the past. On the other hand, there are some very serious gaps, weaknesses and outright flaws in Evolutionary Theory, for which I have never received a satisfactory answer. There are also many more that I have with regard to Atheism in general, which have never been satisfactorily answered. I would actually enjoy reading a challenging response, but I doubt that I would find it here, and I have no doubt that when I decide enough of this childishness and leave, there will be those posting comments such as, "he couldn't provide a rational response, so he left". Yep. That'll be the reason. Baaaaaa.

Other Comments by sdbranum

611. Comment #155990 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarOh dear, still no evidence from sdbranum - despite being asked to comment on chromosome 2. I think there is nothing to see here. I think he might have scrapie too - he keeps making sheep noises.

Time to move on I think. I try not to stare at accidents

Other Comments by BillySands

612. Comment #155991 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm

 avatarComment #155969 by BillySands
Nope, and it doesn't take much intelligence to use a word processing programme. Did a grown up or your carer show you?
Hey come on Billy, give the man a chance.

It seems he can cut and paste from Wikipedia (okay, whether he can do it by himself is moot). Standard theist practice though, don't attribute what you get elsewhere.

A bit like the bible filching Ningizzida the Lord of the Tree of Life or Utnapishtim and pretending it was all their own invention.

Other Comments by epeeist

613. Comment #155992 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:14 pm

What are the tenets of my so-called religion?
Someone neglected to mail me the pamphlet.

Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative, which is why some atheists often refer to themselves as Humanists. There are surely others though.

Other Comments by sdbranum

614. Comment #155994 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:17 pm

 avatar
Also, have you not noticed Dawkins being excused for his faux pax with the assertion that since they started it, so it was proper to respond in kind?


Still not discussing religion, I see. If you want to check Comment #155989 you will see me defending a theist who is criticising what Dawkins says. If you check Comment #155106 you will see me disagreeing with another opinion of Dawkins. That is just me. There are plenty of examples of others here not taking his word for things.

But don't let evidence get in the way of a good rant.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

615. Comment #155996 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:19 pm

 avatarComment #155986 by sdbranum
what ID enthusiasts believe, then proceed to trash argument the person or persons never made nor intended. Among bo9th Christians and Atheists, there are those who believe what they believe because that is what they have always been told, or they have placed their trust in someone they believe to have performed rigorous research
Dear oh dear, ID and rigorous research in the same paragraph.

Is this another to add to Al-Rawandi's list, i.e. death by oxymoron?

Other Comments by epeeist

616. Comment #155999 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:23 pm

 avatarComment #155996 by epeeist
Is this another to add to Al-Rawandi's list, i.e. death by oxymoron?


I think we may need this list as a reference on this site somewhere, to know when to note time of death of an argument.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

617. Comment #156000 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:25 pm

 avatarComment #155992 by sdbranum

Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative
You mean this? http://contenderministries.org/humanism/manifesto1.php

Not my style personally.

Other Comments by epeeist

618. Comment #156002 by Geraint on April 6, 2008 at 1:27 pm

Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative...


Never heard of it.

Is it too hard to imagine people who were just getting on with their lives, came across religious ideas, and thought they were silly?

There were religious bits and pieces at school, but I can't say I ever really thought anyone took them seriously.

Then I came across people who did take it seriously, considered the claims of the religious again, and they still just looked silly.

There's nothing more to it than that. No conspiracy. Just some people who want to get on with their lives without the silliness impinging.

Other Comments by Geraint

619. Comment #156004 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:28 pm

Your comments demonstrate woeful misunderstanding which I must assume means that either you have not bothered to take the time to read around this site, or you have and you are choosing to misrepresent what you have seen here.
For some reason I doubt you have any feeling of "woe", but hey, it's a big word, and it makes you look intelligent. Right?

I must congratulate you on your originality, however. We've certainly never had a believer come onto this site before, accusing us of being sheep, followers of Dawkins, believers in a religion. This is something that I have never heard before. Oh, wait. I'm being sarcastic.
Your insult attempt would've been more effective if you didn't feel the need to explain yourself. Just a pointer for future reference… Try leaving off the explanation next time. Your buddies will still get it (maybe), and you'll add the extra slam of insinuating your polished prose is over the head of your opponent.

Accusations that we are followers of a religion fall down when you take two seconds to examine them. You are essentially claiming that we are fundamentalist believers in "No-God". All praise No-God. The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.
Thank you for attempting to restate my words for me, but since I know what I meant, and since you obviously did not, perhaps you'd do better to attack the words as written. Strawmen, which are set up for the purpose of easily being knocked down, do nothing but show your inability to address the statement as it stood. It feeds the faithful, I'll grant you that, but they will always be easily led by whatever cult figure pounces on the scene next, so they are that important anyway. I would hope you are after more intelligent followers than that, but maybe you value each and every sycophant, so maybe you have your own reasons for throwing out such claptrap.

These accusations that you make are more telling about your own mindset. You are so used to associating people who agree with each other with religion that you are unable to see anything else. This is why I think that you have not looked around the site. If you had, you would have encountered vehement debates on many threads. But why let the truth get in the way of your comforting presuppositions?

My relative lack of time spent analyzing each and every post on this web site could not perhaps have to do more with the fact that I am not a fellow worshipper in your online sanctuary? No. Of course not. Everyone should be so devoted to his highness as you. That way you could more effectively cram your religious beliefs, i.e. that there is no God, down everyone's throats. Of course, I am just assuming that is part of your "belief system". Maybe that assumption is wrong.

Oh, and I'd be very interested if you'd provide some links for these debates where "The Professor" debated people who "waxed his butt". Whatever that means.
I truly don't believe you would really be interested, but here's a test. Have you sent off a request to Lord Dawkins to enlighten you why he no longer debates such matters in a controlled public forum where more than his faithful are in the audience? No? Didn't think so. That your words stating you'd be "very interested" constitute a poorly concealed lie - q.e.d.

I notice in addition that you have not responded to my comment…
How could I respond to such effective debate. My! You are certainly world class! There now. Is that better? Is your ego properly massaged now? Good, since unlike you, I do not devote my life to your church, its leaders and its doctrine, and since that is the case, I don't hang onto every word posted on this site to the exclusion of all other interests. But I sympathize with you somewhat. It must be nearly unbearable to have no friends other than those you "meet" on the Internet.

Clearly I am in way over my head here, so I must to run for cover. I can't match such high quality debate. Oh, woe is me. I am undone. Baaaaaye

Other Comments by sdbranum

620. Comment #156006 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative, which is why some atheists often refer to themselves as Humanists. There are surely others though.
Humanist Manifesto followers are all splitters.

sdbranum - Diacanu asked you what his religious tenets were, not what (possibly some) humanists live by. You are a Christian (I'm guessing) therefore, by definition, The Bible is your thing. You try to interpret and live by its rules. There is no parallel for Diacanu.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

621. Comment #156008 by Corylus on April 6, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatarI like to run different viewpoints past myself and try them on for size...

At the moment, I am playing the lurking moderate Christian reading the passive/aggressive posts of sdbranum.....

Currently banging head on wall and muttering STFU.

Other Comments by Corylus

622. Comment #156009 by Mark Smith on April 6, 2008 at 1:31 pm

sdbranum
You replied to my suggestion that you post something substantive by lumping me in with a highly generalised and negatively stereotyped 'you' and by making entirely unwarranted assumptions about me. So be it. But the approach you are taking will not lead to constructive debate. I assume that you are aware of this, but perhaps I have misjudged you.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

623. Comment #156010 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Strawmen
Are all theist apologists fucking farmers? I'm so tired of seeing that word.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

624. Comment #156011 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 avatarComment #156009 by Mark Smith

You replied to my suggestion that you post something substantive by lumping me in with a highly generalised and negatively stereotyped 'you' and by making entirely unwarranted assumptions about me. But the approach you are taking will not lead to constructive debate.
I think the assumption that he came here to take part in constructive debate. Quarrel dialogue, yes. Persuasion or critical dialogue, obviously not from his first post.

Other Comments by epeeist

625. Comment #156012 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 1:39 pm

re: post 622

You could be one that sincerely is willing to debate without slander and insult, and there could also be others. And it is a shame there is the baggage to ignore in order to engage those such as yourself. I truly do not mean to sling insults toward such people, and for that I apologize, but contrary to an assertion otherwise, I did indeed read many posts on this particular subject, including Dawkins' rant, which had to be read several times to understand, and after the 200th or so post, I admit I was more than ready to sling a few insults back towards the posters in general. That is probably as close to an apology I am likely to post, and it is specifically directed to those such as yourself. I've got life to get on with now.

Other Comments by sdbranum

626. Comment #156014 by Galactor on April 6, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarJust had a quick scout for our latest hypocrite:

http://profiles.yahoo.com/sdbranum

Check it out.

Other Comments by Galactor

627. Comment #156016 by Quetzalcoatl on April 6, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarSdbranum-

For some reason I doubt you have any feeling of "woe", but hey, it's a big word, and it makes you look intelligent. Right?


Actually, it's a fairly small word. Count the letters.

I truly don't believe you would really be interested, but here's a test. Have you sent off a request to Lord Dawkins to enlighten you why he no longer debates such matters in a controlled public forum where more than his faithful are in the audience? No? Didn't think so. That your words stating you'd be "very interested" constitute a poorly concealed lie - q.e.d.


What a neat way to try and turn the question back on me.

How could I respond to such effective debate. My! You are certainly world class! There now. Is that better? Is your ego properly massaged now?


Not yet. Please keep going.

It must be nearly unbearable to have no friends other than those you "meet" on the Internet.


Sob sob. My secrets are revealed! I'm so desperately lonely.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

628. Comment #156017 by epeeist on April 6, 2008 at 1:45 pm

 avatarComment #156012 by sdbranum
I've got life to get on with now.
Time of death 20:46 UTC, reason "I have to rush".

Other Comments by epeeist

629. Comment #156019 by Peacebeuponme on April 6, 2008 at 1:50 pm

sdbranum
I've got life to get on with now.
Have you all taken a "How to post on the Dawkins site" course? I really am staggered by the number of theists who post in the same pattern, which is to:

- accuse us all of being "Dawkins followers"
- make some basic arguments which are refuted
- invite some insult
- complain about the insult, but never respond to the reasoned argument.
- but most importantly, always, always leave by saying that you have more important things to be doing. Always indicate that you have a life beyond this site.

I really am curious about the need for the last one.

Epeeist likes to wave a pointy piece of metal about from time to time. I'm aware that Steve is quite handy with computers. When asked they occasionally talk about these "extra-dawkins" activities, but don't see the need to sign off when the argument gets going with a high-handed comment about richness of their personal lives.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

630. Comment #156021 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:53 pm

 avatarComment #156017 by epeeist

Perhaps, but there was an apology.

I apologize, but contrary to an assertion otherwise, I did indeed read many posts on this particular subject, including Dawkins' rant, which had to be read several times to understand, and after the 200th or so post, I admit I was more than ready to sling a few insults back towards the posters in general. That is probably as close to an apology I am likely to post, and it is specifically directed to those such as yourself. I've got life to get on with now.


Whether or not what Dawkins wrote was a rant, he had every right to say what he did. He was deceived into contributing to this film. Even those who honestly believe that ID is some kind of scientific theory should condemn what has happened here.

Also, the apology, though appreciated, should be general, for suggesting some hind of "herd" mentality here.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

631. Comment #156023 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 1:57 pm

 avatarsdbranum

I know you'll read this because you've said three times you had to go, and yet still post here.

Is that you in the dress here:
http://profiles.yahoo.com/sdbranum

If so you're pretty hot. If not, then go fuck off.

Other Comments by markg

632. Comment #156025 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarComment #156023 by markg
If so you're pretty hot. If not, then go fuck off.


Hey, not everyone here is straight.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

633. Comment #156027 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 2:10 pm

 avatar
Hey, not everyone here is straight.


Yes, I know that. No offense meant to anyone else but sdbranum.

Other Comments by markg

634. Comment #156029 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarAl-rawandi's list:
1) Hitler was an Atheist
2) Stalin and Mao were Atheists
3) Can't disprove God
4) Bible is metaphorical where it contradicts science.
5) That is not "my God".
6) Atheism is a belief too.
7) Evolution is a theory
8) Second Law of Thermodynamics contradicts evolution.
9) Pascal's Wager
10) I am busy and have to leave.


Peacebeuponme's manual:

- accuse us all of being "Dawkins followers"
- make some basic arguments which are refuted
- invite some insult
- complain about the insult, but never respond to the reasoned argument.
- but most importantly, always, always leave by saying that you have more important things to be doing. Always indicate that you have a life beyond this site.


I think we're getting somewhere.

Other Comments by Vadjong

635. Comment #156032 by Steve Zara on April 6, 2008 at 2:35 pm

 avatar
Yes, I know that. No offense meant to anyone else but sdbranum.


Sorry, it was meant as light humour.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

636. Comment #156042 by steveroot on April 6, 2008 at 2:46 pm

 avatar
607. Comment #155947 by sdbranum on April 6, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Well, let's see. Did you mean to say, "I guess intelligence is not something with which you are familiar"? If so, it appears I've a bit more familiarity with that concept than you.

Rats! Billy Sands beat me to it. Nevermind. Why don't you take those analytical grammar skills of yours and apply them to your favorite holy book?

639. Comment #156023 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 1:57 pm

If so you're pretty hot. If not, then go fuck off.

{spews afternoon coffee from nostrils}

Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

637. Comment #156052 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 2:58 pm

What did I miss?
Typical - go out, enjoy life, come back, log on and there's a fundy buggering off claiming he has a life to lead.
Liked this, though
The idea is absurd. Atheism is an absence of belief.

You believe that strongly, do you?

One must believe in the absence of belief? Eh? Poor deluded fool - can't think outside the church!
As it is, I don't believe, I know :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

638. Comment #156053 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:00 pm

 avatar


sdbranum-
Though it depends upon the various sects, most recognize the Humanist Manifesto as authoritative...


Geraint
Never heard of it.


Ditto.

Oh, and going back to...


sdbranum-
Though it depends upon the various sects...


Funny how the religious mind can seemingly only break things down in it's own terms.

Atheism is merely lack of belief in gods.

One can be a humanist, a progressive, a libertarian, a nihilist, an anarchist, etc, etc, on top of that, but it doesn't make it a "sect", of atheism, any more than there are "sects", of a-leprechaunists, or "sects", of a-boogeymanists.

Other Comments by Diacanu

639. Comment #156058 by Bonzai on April 6, 2008 at 3:07 pm

Hey, not everyone here is straight.


Well, you don't need to be straight to find some people of the opposite sex very hot. In the same way it is possible that a straight person may think that someone of the same gender is very attractive. My friend is straight (or so he says) but every now and then he would say so and so (male) is really hot. I think he means to say he can imagine a girl would find so and so very sexy.

I know that was meant to be humour, I am not trying to start an argument. :)

Other Comments by Bonzai

640. Comment #156061 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:10 pm

 avatar

Peacebeaponme-
Diacanu asked you what his religious tenets were,


Indeed I did.
I notice how he outright avoided my second point too.

Don't think he could fathom it.

Someone who feels the need to be led by a big sky daddy, and his funny-costumed earthly representatives, would probably find themselves flailing in the abyss with an ant-like heirarchy structure torn away from them.

Other Comments by Diacanu

641. Comment #156062 by Vadjong on April 6, 2008 at 3:10 pm

 avatarGoldy:
As it is, I don't believe, I know :-)


Yes, me too, I know the feeling of knowing from the bottom of my heart! It makes me sooooo HAPPY!

Oops, next thing you know, they'll accuse us of being faithful believers in the church of science! (Aw, too late.)

Other Comments by Vadjong

642. Comment #156064 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 3:21 pm

 avatarHmm...*thinks about it*...how in the heck could atheism have sects?

Atheist 1- The bible is a streaming pile of horseshit!!

Atheist 2- No, it's a GLISTENING pile of BULLshit!!!

Atheist 1- Fuck you too, Fu Manchu!!!

*A fistfight erupts*

Other Comments by Diacanu

643. Comment #156074 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Vadjong, we'll be accused of being Know-it-alls, a most dangerous athiest sect!
Still, better that than being an entemologist - they think they're the in sect! ;-D

Other Comments by Goldy

644. Comment #156075 by BillySands on April 6, 2008 at 4:06 pm

 avatar
Atheist 1- The bible is a streaming pile of horseshit!!

Atheist 2- No, it's a GLISTENING pile of BULLshit!!!


I thought it was a heaving maggot ridden pile of pig shit that has been pissed on from a great hieght by a giraffe with cystitis. Or was that the Dawkins letters I'm thinking of?

Other Comments by BillySands

645. Comment #156080 by markg on April 6, 2008 at 4:29 pm

 avatarAtheist 1- The bible is a streaming pile of horseshit!!


Atheist 2- No, It's a GLISTENING pile of BULLshit!!!


Atheist 3- I thought it was a heaving maggot ridden pile of pig shit that has been pissed on from a great hieght by a giraffe with cystitis. Or was that the Dawkins letters I'm thinking of?


That' heresy. I'm quite sure it was a stinking load of chicken shit sprayed by a rabid skunk suffering from acute halitosis.

Other Comments by markg

646. Comment #156083 by fstaheli on April 6, 2008 at 4:33 pm

I watched the "Expelled" trailer, and I am not initially much impressed. The evidence for evolution and natural selection is very convincing. It appears that Mark Mathis and his bunch are attempting to short circuit the process by dismissing science out of hand.

I agree with your argument

design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, ...the regress must ultimately be terminated


This is still difficult for me to comprehend. Even if there is a God, how did he get to be a God, and who was his God? Someday I hope (expect) to know the answer to that question.

I believe in God, that he created this earth, but I also believe that things evolve, and that the earth is many billions of years older than some people dare to believe. God is NOT above natural law; rather he (and she) became God by abiding by the laws of the universe. It is perfectly reasonable to me that the http://economicspolitics.blogspot.com/2008/04/richard-dawkins-mormonism-and-evolution.html">
evolution of an Intelligent Designer could have occurred somewhere else in the universe, and that Designer created this earth, along with its plants, animals, and people.

SimpleUtahMormonPolitics.com

Other Comments by fstaheli

647. Comment #156088 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm

 avatarfstaheli-


I believe in God,


Why?
Because your parents taught you that stuff?
If you'd been dropped off as a toddler on a desert island do you think you'd believe it?

Other Comments by Diacanu

648. Comment #156089 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 4:53 pm

Hello fstaheli!
I believe in God, that he created this earth

Why do you believe this?
Of course, i can be convinced of some extra terrestrial origin for life (panspermia, etc) but I personally cannot envisage why life should be brought to this planet by a god who presumably had a reason for it.
How would your feelings be if there was life on another planet - or even if life can be found in this solar system (say, Martian fossils, ummm, whatever that ice moon of Jupiter is called...etc)?

Other Comments by Goldy

649. Comment #156090 by Diacanu on April 6, 2008 at 5:00 pm

 avatarAlso, say I had a time machine, and plopped Einstein, Darwin, Hubble, Bohr, Heisenberg, etc back before any of the prophets came along, and they presented their facts, and got people to accept them, and THEN the scribblers of the Bible came along, do you think anyone would believe them?

I'm doubting it.
They'd be seen in the same light as L. Ron Hubbard.

And then what?
Would the angry desert God blow up the world in a tantrum?
Can you bring yourself to believe that?

Other Comments by Diacanu

650. Comment #156092 by Goldy on April 6, 2008 at 5:06 pm

Good point. Why did God not make people as they are now then? Why all the waiting? The evolving, the finding stuff out....
Mind you, preaching to the converted, aren't we :-) You believe in God but not God as, say, the fundies believe. You believe in God as I would if I believed.
Odd thing, this religion thing. We all do it (as cultures, not people) even though the evidence around us points to there not being gods. Even if we don't believe in gods, we still evolve a religion so we can have somewhere to pray and meditate etc. The notion is so very intrinsic in us that we can't really see the absurdity of it all - indeed, we show great respect to those that wish to dress up funny and make pronouncements on our behaviour, indeed, on our very lives.
So very odd...

Other Comments by Goldy
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